:(

At least thru Google News I'm seeing the Times has a small blurb...but from what I am hearing the news media is downplaying what is going on.

You know, you'd think that people would figure out that murdering and raping and mutilating innocents and kidnapping their kids was WRONG.....and yes, all of the above are going on in that area. Whether or not you see it reported.

It is 11.30 am, July 30, 2009. One of my friends called me and shared about the following tragedy. I am very sad to report that a mob of thousands of Muslims set fires that burned 60 houses of Christians. Their livestock including cows, goats and buffalos burnt to death.

Finias Paul is an eye witness who saw a mob burning and demolishing the homes of Christians. Finias told me the problem started in a village called Korian. On July 28th, a wedding celebration was going on in the area. Throughout the night the Christian families, their relatives, and Christians in the area celebrated.

On the morning of the 29th, a few Muslims saw some pieces of Quranic verses in the street in front of the family's home where the wedding had been celebrated.

The Muslims spread the word that the family desecrated the Quranic pages. A group of Muslims called upon many Christians, man-handled them and forced them to admit that they committed blasphemy. But one family, the family of Talib Masih refused.

The following day, July 30th, Christian women and men were severely beaten by the Muslims. It appeared that the conflict had been resolved.
But late in the evening, Muslim clerics gave a call to Muslims to come and teach a lesson to the Christians.

When the Christians heard this they evacuated the villages and fled to save their lives. Approximately, seven to eight hours later, a mob of thousands of Muslim men set fires to burn the houses of Christians. More than 40 houses have been completely burnt and the loss of livestock is very high.

The local administration was called to protect and save the homes and property of the Christians. The police and fire brigade responded, but they responded too late. When the mob of Muslims saw the police and fire brigade, they blocked the road and burnt the tiers.

There are reports that the mob had violent clashes with police, who used their batons and tear gas.

The District Coordination Officer and the District Police Officer reached the village four hours too late. The Police Officer suspended the Station House Officer named Juniad Chishti, then also suspended Sadar Gojra. The Mob demanded that the police suspend him. The Muslim clerics filed a written application against Talib and his family under Pakistan Penal Code section 295 B & C, but he took no action.

The Muslim mob demanded that the District Police Officer (DPO) shoot Talib Masih and his father in front of the mob on the main road of the village. The DPO refused.

Qari Noor Ahmad and Bilal Asghar Warriach, members of the Punjab Assembly led a dialogue and the mob was dispersed.

As the dialogue was in progress the mob allowed the fire brigade to start tending to the fires, but by that time it was too late and almost all of the sixty homes were badly burnt and demolished.

Mukhtar Masih, 70, one of the local residents said “thousands of Muslims were on Toba-Faisalabad Road to protest and block the road and stop the police and fire brigade while another mob was busy burning and demolishing the house. The arsons did not even spare the poor animals.”

The Chief Minister of Punjab province ordered the Commissioner of Faisalabad to initiate an immediate inquiry and take actions against the people involved. He ordered legislators to rush to the conflict zone to resolve the issue. Many have visited the area including the Commissioner, the Inspector General Police, Khalil Tahir Sandu and Joel Amir Shohtra. The higher authorities of Faisalabad have also visited the village. Also present are Christian organizations such as Strategic World Impact.

The local media has showed a double standard policy over the issue. I spoke to different media personnel in both Urdu and English. They told me that they have been stopped in reporting it as Christian / Muslim conflict. They are only being allowed to report it as fighting between two groups. Almost all TV channels reported it as groups that were fighting and burning houses. The media focused on the mob that blocked the roads and did not allow the firemen to save the animals or properties.

There have been no Christian voices in the news. The media has ignored the Christians seeking protection; who have hidden themselves in the village and want to get out. But neither the media nor the district administration has paid attention to them.

The Christian’s losses are shown but their statements and their condemnation are hidden. Presenting one side of the story has created more difficulties for the affected Christians.

The report has been made in the light interviews of local residents, media, eyewitness etc.

Please pray for my people..

Reported by Faras Mukhtar
Country Director, Pakistan
Strategic World Impact.

It's on CNN.

And on MSNBC.

Bunnyfire, knock this shit off. Why do you always pull your Christian martyr crap on Sundays? Do they hand out assignments at church? Do you always volunteer to "do the internet"?

*sigh*

AP has something, too.

Ditto Bloomberg.

Yeah, it happened. Muslims kill Christians for being Christian. Christians kill Muslims for being Muslim. Film at eleven.
If Bunnyfire thinks this story is so fucking important, she should go post it on the Blue. How do you think that would go over? Pretty much like everything back-ass prostelytizing that she does, it goes over like a lead balloon. She pisses people off, she knows she pisses people off, and THIS IS NOT WHAT METACHAT IS FOR.
I have kept my tongue on this for too long. I can't stand this shit anymore. I know, I know, "don't read it, move on", but I at least have to let her, and ultimately, the community, that I am not okay with this.

The world has not "gone mad". If the definition is religious ("communal") violence, the world has been mad for a very long time.

So, msali, you are saying it is okay for people to be burned in their own homes????

I'm glad mainstream news is finally reporting on this. Day late, dollar short, and Twitter probably shamed them into it.

Msali, not to be rude, but I really can't care that you don't care about this. I'd rather care about my friend's friend who has no freaking idea where his wife and children are right this minute.

I'm glad mainstream news is finally reporting on this. Day late, dollar short, and Twitter probably shamed them into it.

It's this. You're playing the victim card in a situation where people really ARE being victimized, and they don't need loony conspiracy talk about it being "downplayed" added for more drama. If you post something that you think will interest people here, have the courage to let it stand or fall on its own merits, without the conspiracy talk.

Konolia/Bunnyfire/St. Alia of the Bunnies, you are hurting metachat. You're not rude, you're trolling. If you honestly believe this story has any merit whatsoever as a newsworthy item, post it to the Blue. NOT HERE.

So, msali, you are saying it is okay for people to be burned in their own homes????

In no way whatsoever is msali condoning these crimes and tragedies - what they are asking for is more balance in your posts and not this kind of Muslims attacking Christians martyrdom message - which is exactly how the lengthy copy and pasted report reads.

Yes it is tragic that people are getting hurt - Muslims hurt Christians, Christians hurt Muslims - as dhartung said it has been going on for a long time all over the world.

The phrasing used in your post and the "report" doesn't help towards the goal of peace - it's a cry to arms against Muslims in general. That is wrong no matter who it comes from.

Please don't post it to the blue.

Aw, come ON, Cortex?! Don't you wanna babysit that thread all night? Do your banning powers extend to metachat?

bunnyfire, the strange thing about your link is that 60% of it is supporting some ethnic splinter group (i.e. a secessionist group!!) I doubt you've even thought about whether they have a just claim, or pondered the systems and dynamics of irredentism enough to determine what your views are on that sorta thing.

Don't worry, Cortex, I won't. Wasn't planning to.

For what it's worth, my friend has a school in Pakistan-in that area- where Christian and Muslim children study side by side. I cannot understand why my outrage that innocent people are burned simply because they are Christian believers is considered a call to arms against Muslims.

But no matter what your faith, if women getting raped and people being burned alive in their homes and churches being burned and even the farm animals getting slaughtered doesn't outrage you, then frankly I don't think I want to be associated with you.

I have other links, but *shudder* they are from my friend's ministry, and I just would rather not hear snarks about it. I was just trying to find a neutral link and at that point mainstream media was not showing up.

if women getting raped and people being burned alive in their homes and churches being burned and even the farm animals getting slaughtered doesn't outrage you, then frankly I don't think I want to be associated with you.

Right. You're not putting words in anyone's mouth, are ya, hon?

(bless your heart)

Just in case you're feeling sorta aliented--of course we think it's horrendously sick and bizarre to rape/burn/murder/pillage especially in a riotous scale. And of course there needs to be more systematic protection in pakistani rural regions for minorities. But a bunch of illiterate bozos forming an ad-hoc violent gang based on identity politics is pretty common on the Indian subcontinent. That doesn't make this okay, or not worth mentioning, or not worth hurting about. It just means there are more serious ways to consider it than be like "omg outrage!!"

Firas, I am simply a politically unsophisticated woman whose friend is about to head over there yet again in harm's way and who already has diagnosed ptsd over the atrocities he has personally witnessed in the past in various and sundry wartorn areas he has been (most of his ministry is involved in getting in relief supplies to places where it is so dangerous other relief organizations have left.)

All I see is pain and hurt that doesn't need to happen, and you can understand why I am personally upset that people want to talk politics instead of remember that-hey, these are humans, and hey, no one, NO ONE deserves to have this happen to them....

Stewriffic, I am totally missing your point. The things I described are things I did not get from the media-I got them from my friend who got them from his coworker ON SITE.

Ok, I'll be clearer. You basically said that anyone's dissent about your making this post here is tantamount to their condoning rape and burning people alive. I can't believe that you are being anything but disingenuous now.

Even clearer, I hope: I'm 100% certain that nobody here is pleased to hear about anyone being raped or burned alive. Please don't say/imply that they are.

And with that, I'll stop posting. I don't usually engage in this sort of thread, and I apologize for doing so this time.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish by posting this here? Are you sad and concerned about your "contacts" in the area and looking for sympathy? Are you trying to rile us up against Savage Ungodly Muslims who are terrorizing Pure Innocent Christians? The way you framed your post leans much more strongly toward one of these angles over the other. (Hint: it's the political one.)

It's a sad story.

FWIW, I think it's a dangerous and frightening thing to be a Christian in certain parts of Pakistan. I hope your friend is safe, and they continue to be safe.

Also, I don't see any problem (on reflection) with bunnyfire posting this. I'd rather that it didn't have the "Muslims suck, Christians are persecuted" subtext, but I can't tell if that subtext is one I've added as a consequence of my own Socialist / Athiest leanings. I'm tempted to believe that it is, and bunnyfire is posting this from the POV of someone who's genuinely upset that someone she knows is in harms way in a place where people are being murdered.

To those protesting this post: I realise that on the other site, bunnyfire has form, but it's not cool to bring those grievances over here. The konolia handle has been out of action for years now, and the person that was then is not the person metachat-bunnyfire is. It seems poor form to link the three names together. Also, I know some of you are frustrated by the political / religious posturing you see, and it seems obvious that you've got a problem with bunnyfire, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that continuing that fight on a post where someone is upset that a friend has had to flee for fear of being killed, is probably not the best way to register your disapproval of an individual.

On the perceived lack of reporting. As people have noted, it is being reported, and it's possible that because you found out about it before the major news sites had verified and written about it, that it looked like it wasn't going to be a story.
(I was going to go down the "people die all the time and this is nothing special" route, but it does look like this is a big story(*)).

(* - A quick whizz around the BBC News site shows Ugandan rebels killing and murdering, an attack in Israel on a gay club, and the usual deaths in Afghanistan)

This sort of physical violence is always deplorable and unwarranted, and I hope (truly) that your friend's family is safe.

That said, Muslim-Christian relations are complicated. To imply that one side is 100% to blame for any one isolated incident (which, face it, is what that long copy/paste blurb did) rarely covers the whole story. Indeed, telling the whole story is often impossible because of how large it is and how many years/decades/centuries it encompasses.

I absolutely don't condone the violence that occurred, no matter what the reason. Hindu-Muslim relations in India are no better, and my family has been near the site of a bomb blast or violent outbreak more than once. I understand your pain and worry.

Just perhaps pause to consider the frame in which stories are told before posting potentially inflammatory material. (I'm referring here to the tone of the piece you copy/pasted, not the whole post itself. I think we can agree that being worried about a friend in a danger zone is totally okay to talk about here.)

Stop with the strawmen arguments and GYOFB.

If Muslims were sending groups of people to North Carolina to tell Christians about the gloriousness of Allah and how they will be so much better off if they'd just give up their silly beliefs, what sort of reception would they receive? About the same as a black man showing up at a KKK membership drive potluck.

I hope your friend is alright, and I hope they go home.

I just think the saddest part of it all is that god doesn't exist and these people died for nothing.

Dear bunnyfire,

I'm sorry about your friend--very sorry, it's just awful--but I also strongly agree with msali, Stewriffic and others that this is not a good post for Metachat. I understand that you would like this story to receive wider attention, but, because it affects people you know, and people who believe the same things you do, you might be so close to the subject that it's affecting your judgment.

You may have seen a little human-interest story about some tattooed librarians in Texas that produced a fundraising calendar. If it were up to me, this would be front-page news worldwide. But then, I'm a tattooed librarian in Arkansas, a state that shares not only a border but also a city (Texarkana) with TX. Like I said--too close to the subject.

And your style of argument, bunnyfire, is either deliberately inflammatory or willfully oblivious. The false equivalencies, the straw men, the suggestion that anyone who thinks this is a bad post is also standing in line waiting to rape and murder people? That stuff is both unfriendly and wrong, and we (that is, people on Metachat) are better than that. Stewriffic did a great job explaining my feelings here. As you may recall, I'm not always perfect in this area myself. It's easy to speak in anger. It's not always easy to be kind during the heat of disagreement, but it's always worth the effort.

Again, I'm very sorry about your friend, and I hope we both live long enough to see an end to this kind of religious violence.

Best,
box

P.S. If farm animals being slaughtered outrages you, maybe you should consider becoming a vegetarian. Does your religion say anything about the subject?

n-thing everything upthread.

Bunnyfire - when you personally do something to end this kind of violence, regardless of who-did-what-to-whom, in your own community on your own time, posting this kind of weirdness on Metachat rings hollow.

Agitprop isn't something that goes over well here, ever.

The few times I've posted stuff similar to this I've had to apologize to the community for it. It's pat, knee-jerk stuff.

If you're up in arms over this, and righteous enough to continue posting this type of stuff over time, you need to do something real about it where you live to enlighten others about how horrible it is. Work towards a more peaceful world - make this fight your own fight in a tangible, decent, peaceful way that benefits the world and everyone in it.

Please read box's comment again, because it's what I would have written if I could organise my thoughts better.

I just think the saddest part of it all is that god doesn't exist and these people died for nothing.

Amen.

I'm angry.

Palestini Christians are treated like crap at the best of times-called unclean and not allowed to drink from the same taps as the others in their village. People right now are being pressured not even to sell them anything in the markets to eat. People in the village literally laid their bodies on the road to block rescue crews trying to put the fires out on all those homes. Not the half is being reported over here.

My friend is going over there right now in harms way to bring them relief supplies so they can live.

And all the rest of you care about is "me making a political post."

Well, take the word "christian" off my post and replace it with...oh, whatever you like. Then reread it. Then tell me what kind of a hypocrite it takes to treat my post and me this way.

I thought you people would care because these are human beings not treated as human.

This place started as a place where we could post anything. ANYTHING. Anything.

Since I'm planning on leaving here anyway, let me just be plain. If this was a small group of homosexual people in Pakistan this were happening to, you'd all be up in arms. But because it's a group of Christians, well, apparently they must be bringing it on themselves, huh? Why is it I can be sad for people in Israel murdered just because they were in a gay club, but some of you can't have the least bit of outrage about the fact that people are being literally obliterated just because they don't believe what the radical elements in their nation want them to believe? Those same radical elements that do suicide bombings in many areas of the planet? The same radical elements that would happily murder gay people or stone women who had the misfortune to be raped?



Those of you who want to find me, friend me on Facebook. The rest of you? I will leave you to your hypocrisy. I've had a bellyful of it.

You're accusing a lot of people of saying a lot of things they didn't say. A lot of people whose hypocrisy is none of your goddamn business.

Well, take the word "christian" off my post and replace it with...oh, whatever you like.

OK. "Civilians in Iraq."

Miko, if I've ever seen a glove thrown, that's one hell of a throw.

If someone else had made this post, it probably would've slipped under the radar. But since bunnyfire has a reputation as someone with hateful politics and religious beliefs, it was doomed.

The idea that MetaChat is supposed to be a friendly free-for-all is naive. We may be nicer than most, but there are community standards. Our standard is that homophobic bigots don't get a free pass for anything. And that's fucking awesome.

This right here is fucked up.

I'm not so naive to assume that these things don't happen. I've seen it happen here before, and I'm sure that it'll happen again. Needless to say, the "cool kids" of metachat and the mewling minions they command have managed to drive someone else away from metachat.

I hope you're all fucking pleased with yourselves. It's pretty obvious from comments that you've no desire to share the same space as those that don't fit into the tiny little "liberal" world you inhabit. It's obvious that being accepting of those that are different to you either only goes so far, or is only tolerated as long as it's not in your own back yards. It's laughable that you can throw around words like "bigot" in a thread which doesn't even try to empathise with someone who subscribes to a different world view.

Bunnyfire's wrong about a lot of things, but she's right to paint you as hypocrites. She's right to point out that metachat should be a place where people feel safe to post anything, but where she is forced to subscribe to a dangerous double standard.

Bunnyfire has always been treated disrespectfully in this place. She's always been a lone voice struggling to make her point against a noisy backdrop of innuendo, intolelerance and rudeness. She can't say anything without it being picked apart for potential thoughtcrime. And now you've driven her away, and I hope you're all very pleased with yourselves.

Yeah - OK - You can disagree about stuff, but the bullying and self-congratulatory gloating that's gone on in this thread in no way represents disagreement. It's mob rule with a ruling elite that constantly whines its way to its own little version of what metachat should be like.

I'm going to lose a bunch of whuffie over this, and probably some internet friends as well - But I don't care. What you've all done to bunnyfire on this site makes me ashamed to believe the same things as you. It makes me ashamed to be associated with this site.

seanyboy, I dislike mob triumphalism too. Nobody in this thread asked her to leave, just to knock off the ignorant bombast. And frankly most of the "cool kids", as you call them (with me a mewling minion, I suppose) are fairly skeptical that bunnyfire is actually capable of picking her ball up and going home from both meta* sites.

How can you *not* shoot yourself in the foot with (1) "if women getting raped and people being burned alive in their homes and churches being burned and even the farm animals getting slaughtered doesn't outrage you, then frankly I don't think I want to be associated with you." followed up by (2) "Then tell me what kind of a hypocrite it takes to treat my post and me this way." No attempts at understanding what people are saying to her in between, no serious attempts at explaining her point of view either (just more passionate rehashes of "but it's wrong!"—yes, it is!). Never mind any effort to bridge the gap.

Quite frankly what she's displayed here, far from being either an intellectually abrasive argumentative style or a window into some distasteful worldview, is manipulative behavior, by being willfully disingenuous followed by being willfully obtuse.

All she seemed to be asking for is a confirmation that we're outraged that bad things are happening to oppressed groups in the region. None of what she said, or the manner in which she said it, was conducive to fishing for that sympathy except in the matter-of-fact way that everyone acknowledged.

Bunnyfire either has atrocious communication skills (not just in terms of telling us what she thinks but also a lack of empathy for figuring out what the hell the other party is on about), or a lack of commitment to genuine discourse, and failing those should at least get a bulletproof ego.

About you being ashamed to be associated with this site, etc., I don't know. I only got here a couple years ago. I will say that the ruling elite conception seems really odd to me. There is a clique, yes—much of it is represented on the thread here, or on the gloating offsite, etc. Regardless of the social dynamics of a democratic metachat.org vs disproportionate influence wielded by certain bunnies, is her account getting disabled? Didn't think so. Has she been explicitly asked to leave town? Not here. I don't have enough knowledge of previous flameouts to really comment on the matter though.

(And, to wrap up on that point, bunnyfire has a remarkable ability to end up with negative social capital with *anyone*. Even people who go out of their way to be dispassionate about the matter like cortex just roll their eyes. It seems to me that you need a lot of cheek to spend years grinding people down, only to be shocked that they've stopped sympathizing with you.)

And even what that happens, in those last moments, she goes out in a belligerent huff rather than attempt to show or receive any grace.

I'm late to this thread. Can someone summarize what I've been accused of?

It's pretty obvious from comments that you've no desire to share the same space as those that don't fit into the tiny little "liberal" world you inhabit.

That's not true, not for me.

But this IS true (and this is what bothers me about Bunnyfire, not her beliefs):

Bunnyfire either has atrocious communication skills (not just in terms of telling us what she thinks but also a lack of empathy for figuring out what the hell the other party is on about), or a lack of commitment to genuine discourse, and failing those should at least get a bulletproof ego.

That's bullshit, seanyboy. Bunnyfire ramped up the rhetoric and broadened the brush, turned people from a mix of tolerance and irritation to a mix of irritation and disgust. It's something she did, not something "we" did (who are you accusing anyway? Everyone else in the thread, like she did?) Go read it again until you understand.

This poor, poor, pitiful me shit may have you snowed. Plenty of people come here and feel muzzled, plenty of us learn what not to say, and where, and how. Bunnyfire came on here and got a lot of support in threads where she didn't wave her religion around like a flaming bludgeon; even here there are people bending over backwards to be at least polite. But she insisted on drumming up persecution to fit her mythology, and then made a martyr of herself.

If you're enough of a fool to get that wrapped up in her little narrative, so what? It doesn't bug me until you start accusing me of being either a cool kid (fuck you) or a mewling minion (fuck you) in some conspiracy.

The real tragedy is not that bunnyfire's gone, it's that she's manipulated you into thinking everyone else is lined up on one side against her. Now you're following right along, insulting everybody, implying that this happens all the time, pretending that there's only one reason people leave, deluding yourself that your assessment of hypocrisy is accurate or significant.

Stop being fooled, fool.

Metachat should be a place where people feel safe to post anything, but where she is forced to subscribe to a dangerous double standard.

Maybe that's where you missed the boat. Metachat is not a place where people feel safe to post anything, and people come up against those borders all the time. Most of us learn what's tolerated; in my case, it's taken quite a few time-outs, self-imposed and otherwise, and I figure if I find that I've breached community standards, I'll learn and come back and be a better man for it. Maybe bunnyfire couldn't learn, maybe she wouldn't, even against such soft constraints as rope this place together.

I followed her posts about other things, like the grandbuns, with interest, and found her to be an often thoughtful contributor. Too bad she chose to leave over her perceived religious persecution, but I get the feeling she was always just looking for a scene to make.

Hypocrisy is an interesting insult to throw around.

I'm friends with bunnyfire on facebook and twitter and all that. I consider her one of my internet friends. Our views on politics and religion and suchlike probably couldn't be more diametrically opposed (e.g. I consider Obama scarily right-wing for my tastes, and give most of my charity donations to abortion providers). Does that make me a hypocrite for liking her posts about her life and grandchildren? Does that make her a hypocrite for commenting on my facebook page? Are we tacitly approving each other's lives and lifestyles?

You need a little hypocrisy in life, to get through it, I think. Non-hypocrites are bores and, I think, turn into fundamentalists, either way.

Um. That was a total derail, but just a thought. This is yet another "we knew how this would go right from the get-go" threads. Bunnyfire is too smart to fail to see her tone-deafness in the post so I can only conclude that she wanted an excuse to get mad.

Yeah, Seanyboy. Ease up. Bunnyfire does this ROUTINELY ON BOTH SITES. Every few weeks she drops a plateful of screedy nonsense into a thread, gets pounced on for being ridiculous, and then leaves in a huff halfway through the thread.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

She'll be back in maybe a month or two with some innocuous post and then this whole mess will start over.

Girl needs to get offline and seriously get into some therapy/new meds/whatever if this routine is going to end. Until then, it's the jumbo-size popcorn and high-fives from The Minions(tm), The Cabal(tm), and the Cool Kids(tm).

I hope I'm a Minion. Being a Cool Kid sounds like hard work.

Exactly what Hugh said. This is someone else's personal drama, repeated over and over, and it's possible to choose not to help play it out.

For me, the nugget of the problem is not bunnyfire's views themselves - people in my own family hold those views, and I break bread with them, and certainly I've spilled lots of ink trying to understand her and make myself understood to her, engaging her directly on the points she ostensibly wanted to discuss. The problem is not really one of her views, as far as I'm concerned - views can be addressed and discussed.

No, the problem here is what Firas called "a lack of commitment to genuine discourse." MetaChat has been able to handle a wide variety of opinions and held on through multiple lengthy and contentious discussions. The key to the equilibrium has been that people are willing to be earnest about it: willing to follow up a topic they've introduced, respond to others, perhaps adapt their opinion as they go, reflect on their posting choices, and sometimes apologize for an overheated post or comment. A good-faith attempt at earnest discourse with mutual respect has decidedly not been my experience with bunnyfire.

I reject the idea that there have been "no attempts at understanding." I, for one, have engaged in long and painful discussions with bunnyfire not only on this site, but on the other one, and in personal email. I have personally made every attempt at understanding, including asking lots of questions and listening to the answers, and yet recieved mostly stonewalling, circular responses, misrepresentations, personal accusations, and feigned pity over my lost soul in response. I have a feeling I'm not alone in this.

I also reject the idea that there is a 'cool kids' mob organized against bunnyfire. This is just an example of a person having worn out most of her welcome.

I'm interested that people say there are 'cliques' on MetaChat. I'm not sure what that means. There are a lot of individual users. Some I appreciate better than others, definitely, based on what they have written. Some I've met and know personally better than others. Some people are in contact with one another through other means of communication. Some people dislike one another. Some have offended or attacked one another. But when I act, it's not as part of a mob. I've certainly disagreed with almost everyone here, and also been willing to be the only one in a thread maintaining a point even when it was overwhelmingly unpopular - that experience is not unique to bunnyfire.

I do recognize that we're talking about a complicated dynamic, involving a lot of individual people, just as with any community. But I think calling it a "clique" or a "mob" is missing the mark. That's not exactly what happens here. It's a combination of the personal drama Hugh Janus astutely noted, and another aspect of the site, which is its essential (and some would say, desired) lack of structure.

Over the last year I've been a little concerned about the site's lack of focus, of a guiding hand or set of principles, and what that's done to erode the sense of partnership and respect here. We have no mission here, no compact. What is supposed to hold people together? What are the standards of discourse? Heaven help anyone who tries to figure out the norms in such a loosely moderated place. How do you know what's going to be accepted and what denied? Frankly, you don't. This results in a problem noted in community organizing for a long time, perhaps best expressed in The Tyranny of Structurelessness. By asserting the idea that we have a free, open, and shared commons in which all contributions are equally valid, we are actually ignoring the reality that not all contributions are considered equally valid by all members of the site. The absence of moderation means that potshots and direct attacks stay, and others look at that and see that taking potshots and making direct attacks is evidently permissible, and that it's how we establish our norms of what's postable and what's not. We have a stated ethic that people sometimes use:

Metachat should be a place where people feel safe to post anything

...but I don't think that's ever been the case. We say 'anything goes,' but we know that's not true. Anything doesn't go, at least not without comment.
It's only a "safe place" to post if you are actually willing to take whatever comes as a result, whether it be a personal attack, a pile-on, total silence, overwhelming agreement, shaming, persistent argumentation and refinement, left-field comments, ridiculous jokes, rickrolls, etc. In that sense, if you have the personal resilience to do so, you can post anything and consider it a 'safe place' in that your post won't be deleted. But I think we are all aware that it's never been - not ever - a 'safe place' in the sense that you can post just anything and expect a soft landing.

The site seems to be equally committed to completely free and unmoderated participation and to mutual respect, genuine warm feeling, and an idea of civil discourse. It's remarkable how well it usually works considering that those ends are, at times, antithetical. However, it relies on goodwill, which is in shorter supply these days. When the goodwill is lacking, the difficulties resulting from the light moderation become more evident. (And I would be remiss not to point out that even on the very carefully moderated MetaFilter, where insulting and over-the-top personal attacks are removed from threads, the user in question today has burned through two separate accounts and has returned a third time, despite the loud objections she's made to the atmosphere. If it can happen in such a moderated environment, then by gum of course it can happen where nothing ever gets deleted).

In recent months I've seen fairly innocent, chatty, off-the-cuff remarks draw fire that clearly isn't about the topic of the post and often out of proportion to it. There are grudges and jealousies and axes being ground and all sorts of unpleasant stuff.

It is a shame that even though this particular thread started off with a flaming Molotov cocktail of a post, it was immediately called out. The better policy here is probably to ignore stuff like this, because the kind of kerfuffle we're in right now only encourages that sort of post. There might have been a chance for a reasonable discussion, but the topic, predictably, became bunnyfire almost immediately. However, with the site scrolling slowly these days, a drop in user activity, some widespread stressful conditions among the membership and a lack of other kinds of drama, it was probably bound to attract attention.

I think it's best not to get caught up in the emotional spectacle that surrounds this sort of thing, but to look at it from a systems perspective. MetaChat may not mean to encourage this kind of thing, but its structure permits it. When taz was around more and was willing to play big-sister and corral the personalities somewhat, things remained a little more peaceful, but I'm not a bit surprised that got tiring, and it doesn't seem anyone else really wants that role or even has the command it takes to do it. When there was no Facebook and people spent a lot of spare minutes per day chatting and interacting here, there were more voices in the discussion and more variety in the conversation. Those conditions have changed, and it doesn't surprise me that the site is changing a little in tone, too.

If this kind of thing isn't supposed to happen, then perhaps there need to be parameters in place to prevent it. But if we don't want the parameters, then this kind of thing is going to happen. And as I noted, even withparameters, this particular variety of incident is likely to continue to happen anyway, for reasons that have their locus within the actor(s) in the drama. Some things are within our control, some without.

Last thought on this because once again, these shennanigans have drawn too much attention.
This post of hers was my final straw. I was perfectly happy to remain neutral or blandly pleasant when she would post anecdotes about her family and her job, and I would generally refrain both here and on the other site when she would post either religious screeds, or would take up her homophobic or anti-abortion mantle in defense of her faith. She is/was a troll, I realized that, and you don't feed the troll.
What struck me though, on Sunday night, was the fact that SHE DOESN'T EVEN LIKE US. We are, for the most part, exceptionally tolerant people, and that tolerance extends to certain things that she finds an abomination. She's not here, and hasn't been here (or that other place), to provide a reasonable and rational alternate perspective. I am not sure why she spends time on these boards, when she so clearly is unable to make a coherent response to criticisms leveled against her. She seems to harbor a resentment and dislike of us and our community, and appeared to be looking for a reason to gather up her toys and go home.
Like I said, I was willing to tolerate her hateful beliefs, for the greater good of the community - we take all kinds, and as Miko so eloquently pointed out, for the most part, we have allowed just about any kind of post for some time now. I just got tired of being so overtly bludgeoned by someone's faith. I can't think of anyone else either here or on the other site who does so in such a malicious fashion. I welcome silliness, oddball comments, bunny pictures, music posts and reasonable discourse on subjects that may be controversial. But I have made it my policy to reject ignorance and hate, be it from homo-loving, abortion-having, Obama-voting liberals or pious christians alike.

Back on October 28 of last year, bunnyfire decided to leave. She made one comment on October 30, and then starting posting regularly again on December 10.

Just want to say that I agree with most comments upthread. Like Msali I remain neutral to her (she has not worn down my patience all the way, yet) but like LT said, she will be back very shortly commenting on one of essexjan's bunny pictures and the whole mess will start over.

I'm still not sure why anyone is surprised about how this went down. Seanboy: did you miss the last shouting match we had around November last year when she took her ball and went home?

More importantly, what box do I fit into on this site? Clearly not Minions(tm), The Cabal(tm), or the Cool Kids(tm).
Maybe MechaNerds(tm)?

I have long thought that bunnyfire is a drama-addict. If there isn't enough drama in her life, she finds a way to create it. And boy, does she love being the injured party.

Anyway, I just showed up to post what box did. This isn't the first time bunnyfire has taken her toys and gone home and I doubt it'll be the last.

"My friend is going to a dangerous place where awful things are happening and I am worried about him and his family" is a very different post from "WEEP FOR THE FORGOTTEN MARTYRS, HEATHENS!!!!1!

That said, as soon as I saw that thread I thought, "she's never gonna learn to
stop wrestling that tar baby, is she?"

We all have our stances and we all peek out at the world through chinks we've carved in the walls of our egos. Whoop-de-doo. We limp along and do the best we can. I kinda agree with seanyboy that it's sad to push someone away, even someone with views odious to the community's norms. I liked hearing updates from the flower shop and seeing pix of the grandbun and fambly. I liked having a Bad Redneck around so I could more easily play the role of the Good Redneck. Selfish, I know.

But.

Ever been in a good mosh pit? If you have, then you know that the joy therein comes from holding one another up, not beating one another down. If you jump in the pit and start swinging elbows, chances are good you'll get your nose bloodied. And you'll ruin the pit for the rest of us.

Online communities seem analogous to that mosh pit. Whirling chaos, intimidating, seemingly violent, always about to explode. That's how they look from the back of the room. When you're in one, though, you find yourself dancing to an unspoken set of rules that can be bruising to learn. But there's a certain exhilaration to being buffeted about. And some of it is about acceptance and belonging, sad to say.

Not sure what my point is and now I'm even boring myself. So I'll stop.

Let's get up off the floor, wipe the blood off our faces, and get ready to dance to the next song.

bunnyfire has consistently behaved like a manipulative, disingenuous narcissist with a martyr complex and a penchant for trolling for years, both here and at Metafilter. Now, I don't know if she actually is a manipulative, disingenuous narcissist with a martyr complex and a penchant for trolling in real life. But it's how she's behaved for a long time, and as such, she had held both sites hostage in order for her to attain her fix of infantile drama and attention.

Fact is, I have actually ducked out of Mecha for months at a time in part because I didn't want to deal with her bullshit. But you know what? I didn't make any weepy, huffy posts about it in order to trigger some fucking YOU MAKE ME ASHAMED FOR HOW YOU HAVE TREATED SCODY circle jerk. We are all goddamn adults here, and adults ought to be held accountable for for their behavior. Bunnyfire, in all her guises, has consistely attempted to give this basic equation the slip. Well, I think she ought to be fucking held to it instead of indgulged, yet again, for her shitty, shitty behavior.

So here's the deal, seanyboy. You think bunnyfire is such a fine, important member of this community? Great. Then you can have her. If she is allowed to come back YET AGAIN, after YET ANOTHER shit fit, then I will choose to leave mecha permanently and forever.

This is not a threat; I hesitate even writing it, precisely because I am allergic to the kind of drama I fear it will cause. Nevertheless, I want to state it as a simple fact, so that you will be clear ahead of time that -- as far as my participation here goes -- actions have consequences.

Oo Ultimate Mosh Clique Ultimatum!

Not an ultimatum. A statement of fact.

I'd like to toss one other idea into the air here.

Having bunnyfire around has allowed me to see how grownups behave around people they don't agree with. I generally, if not entirely, avoid any threads that involve her. While I can't claim to KNOW bunnyfire at all, I've read stuff she'd written that made me so uncomfortable, that I was unable to even begin to appear friendly.

Mechazens showed me that they could actually look past that stuff. It impresses the FUCK outta me. I hesitate to even contribute to this thread. But...honestly, seanyboy, her presence has, if nothing else, showed that many good people can still look to the good in an often hateful-appearing person. Her presence has also showed me that I can learn to bite my tongue instead of jumping in (except for this).

So, I would posit that this site has demonstrated WONDERFUL human traits, not whatever you described above.

(oh, and dano: being called out for "clique" behavior by someone with nearly 3 times as many comments as I have is hilarious.)

There's a gloating offsite? That makes me puke.

Much does lately, including bunnyfire's tactics and patterns.

I wish I wasn't such an addict, I'd go away. I'm close. Which I'm thinking will be gloated about on the gloating offsite, so maybe I'll stick around for spite. See? Spite vs. Fun. The Baby Jesus Cries.

Man, do you see how this woman drives everyone to such harsh and extreme emotions? Her behavior is, as far as I can tell, deliberately manipulative! I hate to see fights erupting away from the general crux of the problem, which is bunnyfire herself. I think that most of us would reject such patently bad behavior even if she hadn't been a single-issue voting, homo-hating Christian, because she is ignorant, irrespective of her views. Part of me is with Scody, I actually love this place, but when she starts with her nasty backhanded Christian martyrdom shit, and she is indulged, I just want to step away, and I fear that we are not the only ones that feel like that. Sure, I understand that some of you are upset that a member has been pushed out because her belief system doesn't jive with our own. But I really don't see it like that. She has been pushed out (or willfully chosen to withdraw) because of bad behavior, and a general inability to meaningfully engage with the community. She has been willfully inflammatory and disingenuous, and that is infuriating.
I really hope she is gone for good this time. She needs to find other healthier outlets. Maybe she could become more engaged in active Christian forums online, maybe she could start her own blog. Channel her energies where they will be more appreciated. Perhaps she could even volunteer to mission work overseas, since that is something she seems quite passionate about. I just don't think this place is a very good fit.

I didn't mean a secret site meant to gloat on rainbaby :) I just meant twitter, #bunnies, facebook etc. I think some people have gotten kinda unnerved by my use of the word "clique" when all I meant was like close friendships etc. that can precipitate information and opinion.

I fear that we are not the only ones that feel like that.

Nope, I am in the same camp too. Like Richat I look the other way when she posts just so I don't encourage her behavior.

But the internet is all about me, Firas! Ok, I see what you mean now and it makes sense. And I came back to admit my own hypocracy. I used to be a cool metachat kid, but lots of the other cool kids from that time have moved away from metachat - not all! So when it stops being fun for me, I'll move on too. Communities are like people and simply change over time. I know I can only control myself, not metachat, and that's as it should be.

I sort of feel that these threads always wind up the same way and it makes me wonder why bunnyfire doesn't know that and why everyone else doesn't either. Like scody, I stay away because I find these sorts of things distasteful and I get enough of it (from many people) on MeFi.

Like scody, I stay away because I find these sorts of things distasteful and I get enough of it (from many people) on MeFi.

I'm getting pretty close to this camp, too. Which makes me sad, because it's nice to talk about food and gardening and stuff.

Well, seriously, people....let's just go back to our avoidance, and get BACK to the stuff that makes us come here in the first place: 3 point status updates, and the occasional shouting thread.

I hate to see crappiness become the norm.

I've read stuff she'd written that made me so uncomfortable, that I was unable to even begin to appear friendly.

Agreed. Further, I don't want to appear friendly and make nice with a homophobe.

I didn't intend to speak up here, until seanyboy called out people for hypocrisy. And I'll admit that I have been guilty of terrible hypocrisy, anytime that I have chatted with bunnyfire in an effort to keep MetaChat cozy and friendly.

I've grown increasingly aware of that hypocrisy in myself, and started taking steps to correct it... steps that have largely been steps away from MetaChat. I miss the time I used to spend here, but I don't miss the feeling of putting on a fake smile for someone I know to be a bigot.

Maybe if we all stopped using metachat for months at a time, this would all go away.

Agreed, Eideteker.

See y'all around December maybe.

I don't hang around here too much these days but I'm aware of at least one ex-metachat user that has stopped using the site directly because of Bunnyfire. On reading this thread, it seems like this is becoming more common. At what point does the opinion of the community become more important than the actions of one person? How many more people have to leave before action is taken against someone who is driving a good number of users away? Mods?

To clarify my own remark: it's not fair or accurate for me to imply that any one user is the sole reason for my own decreased use of the site. And lately I've been easing back in, warily but happily.

It's just... there are people, both online and in face-to-face life, whom I regard as I would a jellyfish: I acknowledge their right to exist, but I know they're likely to sting with little provocation (and likely to get poked with a stick, anyhow). So I keep a safe distance.

And knowing that there's a jellyfish floating around in the surf makes going to the beach a lot less carefree and happy.

Except jellyfish are awesome.

How many more people have to leave before action is taken against someone who is driving a good number of users away? Mods?

Yep, I think this is exactly what it comes down to.

Or, to put it another way: metachat is like a community pool. It's not a pool at a private country club; it doesn't have requirements for membership. But even though it lets everyone in, it still has basic standards of behavior that everyone -- everyone -- is expected to meet.

One of those standards is DO NOT PEE IN THE POOL. Why? Because it's not good for the other swimmers to have to swim in a pissy pool. Swim in your pee all you want in your own pool, but do not force the rest of us to navigate the urinous waves.

Bunnyfire has a history of peeing in the pool. She has done it repeatedly. When she is asked not to, she denies that she's peeing in the pool (even as the water turns yellow around her), throws a tantrum about how she's being victimized for her beliefs (rather than for her peeing), and then leaves. Eventually she returns, whereupon the process begins again.

The community pool, in the meantime, gets a reputation for allowing all this pee in the water; consequently, numerous people start to leave the pool for good. This raises the question: who is the pool for? Is it for the one person who repeatedly pees in it, or is it for the multiple people who do not wish to swim in pee?

Excellent analogy scody. I totally agree.

Now do it with "dorm couch" & "wet spot".

"How many more people have to leave before action is taken against someone who is driving a good number of users away? Mods?"

I've been away on vacation so I missed this whole contretemps and truth be told can't muster the energy to give this thread the close reading it should have but this statement and it's quote jumped out.

Just to be clear and to take pressure off any of the other mods, I was the one who banned bunnyfire last year. I took a small but fair bit of heat for it.

I was also the one to let her back in so send your shit to me via email. It's listed in my profile.

Maybe I was wrong in reinstating her account.

As for "How many more people have to leave before action is taken against someone who is driving a good number of users away? Mods?" I will just leave you with this. Bunnyfire is not the only person to have been named as the reason for people leaving mecha and she is by no means the most named person. Several others have been more unpopular. At least according to the email I have received.

Perma banning is something I would never do on my own. From what I gathered in my admittedly cursory reading of this thread I guess that makes me weak. Also, I think I agree with what Hugh said.

If you would like to discuss this with me more please contact me via email as I will not be here very much over the next week as family celebrations will take precedence over a virtual life.

Bunnyfire is not the only person to have been named as the reason for people leaving mecha and she is by no means the most named person.

Whoo! A winnar is me!

p.s., I'm not picking on any one person, just quoting the following because of its succinctness.


Man, do you see how this woman drives everyone to such harsh and extreme emotions?

No, people choose to react.

Her behavior is, as far as I can tell, deliberately manipulative! I hate to see fights erupting away from the general crux of the problem, which is bunnyfire herself. I think that most of us would reject such patently bad behavior even if she hadn't been a single-issue voting, homo-hating Christian, because she is ignorant, irrespective of her views.

I agree with most of this, except that I won't go as far to say the problem is bunnyfire. She has exhibited some pretty awful behavior, and she's been subject to some pretty bad behavior as well.

I'd kinda hoped this thread had died out, but here we are at the baggage claim. I don't want people to leave Metachat, because I like the silly side of the internet, and I find it here a lot. I think we can all agree to 1) leave posts like this alone, 2)have mods crack down on axe-grindy posts (work, I know) 3)try to look past things and not immediately spin to 11+outrage and comment.

This includes bunnyfire. She needs to 1) not get all het up when she doesn't get the same reactions here that she might get on her facebook if she posted something like this 2) not post stuff like this here 3) look past the posts/comments at the people.

Drama like this is so very tiring. This should be a place where we build each other up.

I kinda think that some slightly heavier moderation would have been appropriate here. I knew that this post wouldn't end well when I saw it and I think that most others knew that too. A quick deletion and a note to bunnyfire about it's inappropriateness might have been a better way to handle it than letting it fester here. She might have been mad but it wouldn't have blown up the whole site.

Oh and she can drive me nuts too but so can many of my friends and co-workers who have beliefs that I don't agree with in the slightest. The world is full of people and we need to deal with everyone in some kind of mature way without freaking out.

Yeah, or people could just have ignored it. Moderators aren't the only ones capable of moderation.

Yeah, or people could just have ignored it. Moderators aren't the only ones capable of moderation.

Yes, but behaviorally, we know that not everyone will. That's why the mod moderation becomes necessary for any website to maintain its tone. People have bad days, failures of will, precipitating incidents, user histories we don't know, physical and psychological conditions - in short, all of us act inappropriately sometimes, or fly of the handle. It's overwhemingly likely to happen, and remarkable when it doesn't rather than when it does. The collective forbearance required for an entire community to ignore repeated provocation is not something that can be reliably maintained over the long term. Whenever someone pokes the beehive with a sharp stick over and over, even if 99% of the bees ignore it 99% of the time, the person is eventually likely to get stung - we just can never tell which bee is going to lose it that particular day.

In other words, I still see the issue of provocation as a community standards and norms issue and a moderation issue, not an "annoying user is annoying" issue.

...and as crappy as it is to have people leap down your throat, there are also other ways to handle it. What if, instead of carrying on the vein she chose, bunnyfire had responded "Yes, I know that this isn't always the best place to discuss Christian-related stuff, but this really upset me because of my personal connection to the incident. Thanks for finding those additional links; I feel better knowing that this story is being widely covered and not ignored. Religious violence deeply saddens me."

World of difference. There are ways to defuse conflicts, and ways to inflame them, and she's versed in both. When we look at conflict, we can also look at which exact are escalating or de-escalating the conflict. I actually think there are myriad ways that bunnyfire can make Christian-related posts and participate in a civil conversation about them, ways in which she could deflect or defuse the attack or redirect the discussion. But in this thread as in many, that's not what occurs even as the conversation goes on. The battle wasn't lost because the post was made or because an angry comment was made in response. It was lost because as the conversation continued, there was no goodwill aiming toward resolution.

Agreeing with Miko. I've, personally, made a good faith effort to not rspond uncivilly to these sorts of posts, posts which enrage me. I'd like to see a good faith effort on bunnyfire's part to not use MetaChat as a place for dropping controversial OMGfilter news articles and then being unable to manage, handle, or otherwise good-faith respond to people who may not appreciate or agree with her perspective.

I'm not saying this is a sort of "she started it" situation in any way. Only that I feel that the conflict in this thread was inevitable and could have been stopped or defused at many points. We've had to deal with this on MeFi (larger community, different issues at some level) but heavy-handed moderation of people we've asked nicely many times to please be more community-minded is part of how we roll.

I emailed Miko privately. What I got back was a load of false armchair analysis and a request to only respond to her in public.
So, in public, let me say that Miko's idea of constructive discussion is her persuading me to change my opinions-as I have tried to be constructive with her so many times and only get these sorts of lies back in return.

Just go reread what Seanyboy posted. That's my thoughts on this matter.

As for my controversial OMG post, forgive me for thinking that you cared about human beings. The only controversy I see is that of humans that are more concerned with being politically correct than being concerned with people dead, dying and having all their earthly possessions destroyed.

I am ashamed I ever hung out here and tried to befriend most of you. I wish I could gather the fairminded among you and have fun and share whuffles, and yes, other things with friends. Unfortunately what I have learned is that if I try to reach outside my own comfort zone to befriend people I have to expect this sort of crap.

Spare me the rant about how I must be a drama queen to reply. I really don't care to hear it, and I know better.

To the people who were kind, even though we were so different, thank you.

Now would be a great time for someone to lock this thread as I don't see any further use to it.

Bunnyfire is probably asking that the thread be locked, because she emailed me privately, unsolicited. I replied with a statement of my honest feelings, and at the end asked her to stop emailing me. She replied to me again, and asked me "never discuss me again, in public or private." I emailed her back that this was an unreasonable request and I couldn't honor it, and that I wanted her to stop contacting me privately, and that if she tried to contact me again, I would post the exchange online.

She emailed me again.

So I'm quite willing to post the whole exchange, since my bluff has so definitely been called, but it's hard to ignore the fact that in doing so, I would be continuing the same drama she has now managed to carry on for several days, taking it to private email when participating in the thread became unworkable for her.

This is the sort of insanity I will be very happy to live without.

Now would be a great time for someone to lock this thread as I don't see any further use to it.


mmmm, I don't know about that, bunnyfire.

forgive me for thinking that you cared about human beings.

That's inflammatory, ok? That's an attack on everybody here. Please point to someone who said they don't care. Well, I can think of the hostile atheist one, but that was one. There were several who said "no, that's not ok" and "omg, that sucks". What spun most people up was what looked like you discovering for the first time that people are killed because they're different. In this case, that difference was Christianity.

I am ashamed I ever hung out here and tried to befriend most of you. I wish I could gather the fairminded among you and have fun and share whuffles, and yes, other things with friends. Unfortunately what I have learned is that if I try to reach outside my own comfort zone to befriend people I have to expect this sort of crap.

This is accusatory and exclusionary and exactly what you're accusing the larger MeCha community of doing.

I'm glad you found friends, and I hope you find more.

Now would be a great time for someone to lock this thread as I don't see any further use to it.

No, now would be a great time for someone to kick your ass out of here; you should be ashamed of yourself for your ingratitude towards people who tried like hell to make you a friend. I don't include myself in that bunch, but I've never had much patience for false piety and zealous bigotry. I hope you continue to find fear and failure at every turn.

Spare me the rant about how I must be a drama queen to reply. I really don't care to hear it, and I know better.

I'll follow instruction only to the point that I won't waste enough energy on you to muster up a rant. I will point out, though, that you are being a drama queen, and that you have been Queen Drama throughout this whole thread, and that there were approximately 3 dozen ways you could have approached this post without it going the way you did, but you chose to frame it how you chose to frame it. And you didn't like the consequences. And you got drama queeny about it.

That's not a rant. That's a fact. And I don't really care whether you want to hear it or not. That's the whole problem -- you don't get to determine how other people respond.

And yes, you should have known better. You always should have known better. But you refuse to make a good faith effort to learn from this community of people you've tried to befriend. That's part of the social contract in any community -- learning from those around you what's acceptable and what's not. And when you find yourself in a community where what's not acceptable is either baffling or opaque or antithetical to your beliefs, the adult and mature and non-drama queeny thing to do is LEAVE, if you honestly cannot learn to make sense of the community norms and standards.

But you don't get to dictate how people react to your behavior. And when you're tired of the conversation, you don't get to say "Lock it down."

That's simply not the way life works, and it shows your utter lack of respect for the people around you.

Hugh Janus, the people who have tried to make me a friend are doing so on Facebook now. Most (not all ) of you on this thread have not tried to be my friend, honestly.

You are honest enough to at least admit that.

Bad form.

But not bad taste, bad faith, or bad manners, really. I'd say you were the pot calling the kettle black, but I'll bet he and jessamyn have had a lot more dealings with you privately and publicly, and so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well, mudpuppie, seems I have a whole thread of people here that think it is just fine to try to dictate MY behavior.

I've been on this community a long time. Please tell me what norm it breaks that I am trying to get the word out that friends are in harms way in a place where friends of friends are losing their families and possessions? Just because I quickly chose a link to communicate that apparently had an agenda? Are you accusing me of being AntiMuslim? I think just maybe someone could have asked me that-or maybe it really doesn't matter if it's Republicans and bicycle riders doing the murder-maybe I thought I could share about a human rights violation?

My former Muslim neighbor literally cried when he found out we were moving, because he so liked having us as neighbors. But, oh noes, I must be a hater, because Christians are being killed and I said something. Somehow the logic escapes me.

We don't drag The Other Site over here, cortex.

I have no desire to drag The Other Site over here at all, but if you're going to talk dismissive shit about the metachat crowd you are talking shit about That Other Crowd, too—there's a lot of overlap, something that cannot be lost on you—and I have no interest in seeing you feel comfortable flouncing out of one and taking shelter in the other. The two sites should not have to act as daycare sites for one another whenever you decide to go nuclear.

If you have so great a problem with Metachat on the grounds you've stated here, you cannot possibly have any less an issue with Metafilter, and I think the honest move on your part if you're sincere about leaving is to leave, not to fire off some dramarockets and retreat to the other side of the fence to lick your wounds.

the people who have tried to make me a friend are doing so on Facebook now

Yes, you do have a few people there willing to connect to you (everyone can see your friend list, of course). Enjoy Facebook. It's much more appropriate, because it's opt-in. You only have to talk to people you want to talk to.

Lysdexic, it still is against the rules of the site. Just sayin'.

Cortex, it's apples and oranges. These sites are not equivalent simply because some of the same folks are in both places. This was a place where we let our hair down, share whuffles, post pics of bunnies and babies, and (i thought) were human to each other. The other site hasn't been family in a long time. It's just a site with links and discussion.

I reiterate, let's not mix this up. I have nothing against you, Cortex, and I'd rather not argue with you about this.

So, because it's written down, you get to smack people around for Not Following Rules. Pleeeeze. People make non-judgemental remarks about how conflict could have been avoided, and they're dictating your behavior. Nuh uh.

Some of the "don't act like a jerk" rules are written down as well.

From about: "Most posts will be tolerated but use some judgement. Posts may be deleted or modified if they make the baby jesus cry or otherwise suck so bad that they create a deadly vortex that rips a hole in the space-time continuum"

EVERYBODY - From the FAQ: "Slagging off other users is not cool"

This stuff makes me miss usenet. The killfiles that usenet clients had made it easy to make sure that any post by a user who irritated you could be ignored. Bunnyfire you make it sooo hard to stay quiet and ignore you. You also say you are leaving then don't leave. You stick around, hurling insults at people. Please stop it.

lysdexic, I'd prefer you not characterise that comment as smacking people around. It was simply commenting. Just as you just did.

This thread went on quite awhile without me, richat. Maybe it is time we hashed all this out.

We have those site rules, but we don't seem to take them very seriously, and almost never refer to them, and then don't seem to change our behavior much even after they're referred to. I'm sure there are consequences when people violate them, but it's not very visible so it's hard to tell how often that might happen.

And I'm not really sure what to do about this OK Corral thing.

Maybe it is time we hashed all this out.

*whiplash*

Maybe we all just need to breathe.

I don't like being upset at people. I don't really want to be upset at you, Miko, honestly.

No, now would be a great time for someone to kick your ass out of here; you should be ashamed of yourself for your ingratitude towards people who tried like hell to make you a friend.

This, a thousand times.

Mods, make a decision. Are you or are you not going to put a stop to bunnyfire peeing in the pool once and for all?

I don't really want to be upset at you, Miko, honestly.

I don't want to be upset at all. Breathing is a great suggestion. How about walking away from the computer for a while and letting things settle down. I'm going to do that right now.

Just because I quickly chose a link to communicate that apparently had an agenda?

I'd say not just because. I'd say it was also because your original premise was that NOBODY CARED because it wasn't even on Drudge. It did get wider coverage later on. The site's agenda probably had quite a bit to do with it. Your defensiveness afterward just made it worse. Other peoples' reactions didn't help.

Your premise is still that NOBODY CARES, and it's worse because NOBODY CARES BECAUSE THEY'RE CHRISTIANS. And that's patently untrue. Yet you keep reiterating it, and it makes you look like you're not reading what people have written, and that you're only looking for things to attack.

On preview: "smacking around" is a turn of phrase. Hardly worth getting bothered over. Is there a better one? You didn't "just" comment. You said "We don't do this". Which is at the very least a rebuke.

forgive me for thinking that you cared about human beings.

Forgive me for thinking you were making a good faith effort to try to get along with or in this or The Other community as it has generally tried to get along with you. I can cite dozens of emails that cortex and I have sent to you and received from you trying to help you fit in to the MeFi community when it would have been easier to ban you and be done with it. Your hyperbole here is inappropriate and I personally don't deserve it and I don't think the community here or Over There deserves that sort of thing.

LETS CALL THIS DONE SHALL WE?