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06 June 2005
Paranoia (The Destroyer) I just wanted to thank a certain user for alerting me to amberglow's comical bit of fluff from three days ago. Amber himself didn't bother to email me, so I'll give him the same discourtesy.
It is galling & cowardly for you to come to another message board and accuse someone behind their back of something so deluded as "tactical posting". Talk about a "loose relationship with the truth".
If you read the post itself, you'd see I noted it was a relatively balanced piece, and since I'd only seen it posted on someone's blog—a Left leaning blog at that, fwiw—the day before, I posted without giving the date any consideration. Subsconsciously, I assumed it was new, but frankly since it hadn't been posted before I don't see what difference it makes. You calling it a "hit piece" had me laughing, but this really took the cake:
"I'm not as much as a partisan as JenLeigh, obviously."
Yes, I'm so partisan I post glowing things about the UN, or impeaching Bush, or about homeless vets. But to MeFites I'm a "neocon" til the end because either you can't be bothered to get to know me or you're too lazy to make subtle distinctions.
I "timed" the post to counter the others? You have got to be kidding us. There was no "spin" and no "timing" involved. It was no more or less earth-shattering than any of the other political bits that are posted DAILY by a number of users, yourself included. I have criticized the Iraq war more than once, and I have zero impetus to smear Sy Hersh one way or the other. If you read the article, you'd see it wasn't so much the author calling Hersh a liar, it was about how Hersh himself constructs "lies" (in his own words) to get his points across.
So amber: I've been lurking on MeFi for five years and I have never, ever heard you recant or apologize for anything no matter how many people have pointed out your misjudgments. You never waver from the same predictable talking points and you never admit wrongdoing, putting you right on par with certain public figures you skewer for those same reasons.
There is "Partisan", and then there is "lost in the cocoon of your own stubborn ideology", and right now that's about nicest thing I could say about you.
I stand by what i said. I read that article in New York in April--when it came out. Posting a 2-month-old news article about the honesty of a certain person--the person that told the world of the existence of pics and videos that just the day before a judge had ordered released--smells.
I said so in your thread (i.e., galling but not cowardly), and i asked about it here. It smells.
But to MeFites I'm a "neocon" til the end because either you can't be bothered to get to know me or you're too lazy to make subtle distinctions.
*buys jenleigh a beer*
(This is a one-of-the-guys gesture, I am not flirting. I am already carrying a torch for matildaben and ethylene leaves me flustered and stammering with her combination of non sequiturs and brilliant posts).
You stubbornly stand by your words. And by "words" I mean the outright falsehoods you created by accusing me of deliberately posting an article as "distraction". Which, I think I explained fully above, was never a "motive", not even remotely close.
So essentially, you're calling me a liar. Is that accurate, amberglow?
Even in this thread: ...and since I'd only seen it posted on someone's blog—a Left leaning blog at that, fwiw—the day before, I posted without giving the date any consideration. Subsconsciously, I assumed it was new, but frankly since it hadn't been posted before I don't see what difference it makes. ...
That very link was posted (when it was new) in April as a comment in a previous thread of yours. fleacircus pointed it out to you early on in your post. (link above)
I never clicked the link in the "previous thread", thus I had never seen the article before. Nothing smells but your knack for dodging accountability.
I have little other explanation other than what I already gave. Not only did you start an off-site thread calling my post politically "tactical"—utter.bullshit.—but you've called me a liar now that I've explained it.
metachat: the continuation of MeFi grudges by other means.
I kinda hoped that this would be a fun zone where the grudges and personality conflicts of the Blue would be left at the door. Guess I was wrong. That's a drag.
people have all kinds of idea what mecha is and what mefi is. it's still growing up.
it's easy to see both their sides but it just shows how thinking too highly of this site or any leaves people in the poo.
hey, guys, there's this great new thing -- it's called e-mail, and you can use it to write/flame/whatever other people you like/hate/whatever. it's a very good tool, worth a try. if you have an Internet connection it's free, too
I'm all out of beer after the two leftover schlitz's from last night. I just mixed 5 fingers of Skyy with some Minute Maid Citrus Punch. Wanna sip?
depends on what you call "fun"
I don't think "pointless unwinnable pissing contests" are on anybody's list.
jon, Skyy (like Grey Goose) has such a clean, crisp taste that it seems to me that it's best enjoyed quite dry -- either a really dry Martini or straight up. it doesn't mix very well, imo
I've always been a brown liquor guy, matteo-bourbon, scotch, Irish whiskey. I've never really enjoyed the taste of vodka or gin, but it's what's in the house, so I mixed it with the juice. It's not that bad. Call it an Outer Borough Screwdriver.
Mmm, booze. I quite agree that vodka is best in martinis, and that bourbon or Irish whiskey is better (in general, not in martinis). I'm very agreeable today.
I don't much care for vermouth. Here in nYC, there's a disturbing trend of calling anything in a martini glass, a "martini." Beer in a martini glass? Milwaukee Martini. Piss in it? Masochist Martini.
I had some Pucker Schapps laced contraption called a Watermelon Martini. It wasn't too bad, but I was disappointed that it wasn't garnished with a wedge of watermelon, but that woulda tipped the glass over. C'est la vie.
shhh, six feets on
I avoid all those hep cable series like the plague. TV isn't meant to be smart, it's meant to be mindless fun. Maybe Green Acres is on...
Beer martini sounds like a very expensive way to drink beer. I'm going home to Auckland for the weekend and I'm looking forward to the beer: with all due respect to Australia, their reputation for bad beer is well-deserved.
by the way, I had a big sweaty juicy Chimay Belgian beer when I came home after a really heavy workout this afternoon. the weather here is sweltering. I hadn't drunk alcohol right after the gym in ages. now I remember why.
bad, bad idea.
mmm, chimay is good. You ever had any of the Unibroue beers out of Quebec. Brewed belgian style. La Fin Du Monde is a special favorite, although the high alcohol content gives it an effect bordering on the narcotic.
Speaking of beer, this weekend my relatives were regaling us with stories of their alcoholic Irish neighbors back in the early 60's. My nonno used to refer to the father as "biretta."
Hey, AFAIC, you're guilty of nothing more than haste and inattention. But what if he is? Keyboards at dawn? I don't care if you were "posting tactically"--it's called PR; you wouldn't be the first--and I can't summon even that much interest in your outrage at being accused of such. So maybe just say "sticks and stones"?
As for the important questions: I'd drink the Skyy straight, too, instead of mixing it with Minute Maid.
TV isn't meant to be smart, it's meant to be mindless fun.
Nothing wrong with mindless TV fun, but "smart" + "entertaining" is two great tastes for the price of one. Can't understand why someone would shun "smart" and praise "mindless" TV unless the thrill's in the pose.
and in honor of the Euro contingent in here I just fired up 6 songs in a row* by Status Quo, the UK's equivalent of Skynyrd. But great drinkin' music on a hot night.
*"Caroline," "Down Down," "Gentleman Joe's Sidewalk Cafe," "Ice In The Sun," "Paper Plane," and "Spicks & Specks."
Can't understand why someone would shun "smart" and praise "mindless" TV unless the thrill's in the pose.
I like "smart" entertainment just fine, but it just dosen't jibe with my TV habits of siting down with beer and chips to veg out. The smart stuff is better suited to a movie theatre or a book or the web, even.
Euro-rock. Today I will be listening mostly to Amaral, a Spanish group (I'm almost certain), having just been given the disc by my esteemed colleague and told it's good.
The Quo are like Skynyrd in a lot of ways. People pretend to hate 'em but for drunken boogieing they can't be beat. I think Noel Gallagher (of all people, I hate Oasis) said that "paper Plane," was one of his favorite songs.
Armitage, that's a great song (I have original pressing 45 somewhere, it's one of the killer psyche guitar riffs) and I'll admit that Quo are all about "big and dumb" rock, but they're really good big and dumb rock, and sometimes we all feel big and dumb. If we don't we should, it's fun.
The smart stuff is better suited to a movie theatre or a book or the web, even.
I won't suggest you change your viewing habits, I just don't understand the assertion--which I hear occasionally--that TV must be stupid to be entertaining. I do understand the desire to just watch pretty pictures. Sometimes I have an unhealthy fascination with the Style Network.
I remember discussing old school rock with a Brit in a bar once, and compiling a list of "Lost In Translation" Brit hard rock bands that should have been huge in the US but weren't:
Staus Quo
Slade
Sweet
Mud
Motorhead
Terrorvision
Thin Lizzy
Mama's Boys
UFO
Saxon
Raven
......any others?
which I hear occasionally--that TV must be stupid to be entertaining.
That isn't my assertion. It's more that stupid fun suits TV's delivery system and the culture surrounding it (vegging on the couch killing time) better than smart stuff.
lightyears much better ... because we all know lightyears are the standard measure of metalness, and that any mention thereof requires a misplaced adverb to show one's rebel street cred
Their collaboration with (his majesty) Lemmy & the rest of Motorhead on a cover of Johnny Kidd & The Pirates "Please Don't Touch," is a fucking masterpiece. And Kim & Kelly fueled this 'bangers teenage fantasies.
You might be right, to a degree. But there's nothing about the technology or cultural uses of TV that make pretty pictures or half-assed sitcoms necessarily more suited to the medium than 6ft Under or Angels in America or CBS Playhouse. I think it's closer to the truth to say that that's the way you prefer your TV. And that's ok.
Tacky O.: It's worth noting that even mindless entertainment has quality standards. There's a universe of difference between The Honeymooners and Two And A Half Men, if you catch my drift.
(Although I still can't figure out what alice did all day. 2 room apartment, 3 peices of furniture, what the hell was she cleaning?)
It's worth noting that even mindless entertainment has quality standards.
Bubeleh, not for a moment do I disagree! And God knows I've scheduled plans around more mindless entertainment than The Honeymooners or Green Acres. It's just that I'm ok with TV that tries to be more ambitious than the usual run of tube drip, too.
Even I am, on occasion. Homicide: Life On The Street is one of my all time favorites.
I'm glad you mentioned Green Acres. Remember the episode where a beautiful woman moves into Hooterville and Eddie Albert goes over to visit, and Eva Gabor gets all jealous, and when he gets home, she yells "How many boozes did you have?"
That killed me. And became a catchphrase around the house for a while. How come those dipshits at the networks don't know how to create fun like that anymore?
I'll curl up with my mp3 of the German version of the Mr Ed theme (no joke) in the meantime.
Actually, one of the main reasons that I love bands like the Ramones, the Dictators, The Dickies, The Supersuckers, nashville Pussy etc. is their unironic embrace of bottom-feeder American culture. Since, hey, it's the background noise of the enviornment we all grew up in, right?
TV signals cross racial borders. And Sanford & Son and old Mandrill records are as much part of American bottom-feeder culture as The Jetsons and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
I'll give an example of what I mean. When I worked as a clerk in a bookstore in a strip mall, one day me and two ther employees (a polish kid from yonkers and a black guy from the projects) were looking out the window at the yard surrounding the mall. "What a mess," one of them said, looking around at all the garbage swirling in the breeze. "Yeah," I answered, "All we need is an Indian with a tear in his eye to make it complete."
They instantly understood and laughed. It's our lingua franca, like it or not.
I knew you were fucking with me a bit. But it's a pet theory of mine, that old reruns will provide more cross-cultural unity than any speech or manifesto.
Supposedly, suspects arrested in third world countries demand to be read their miranda rights, since they've seen that on Starsky & Hutch reruns. Go, American TV!
I'm saying she posted it to start spinning the whole situation--a tactical move. Why post an article from April otherwise?
I'm not as much as a partisan as JenLeigh, obviously. I don't dredge up and post old disparaging stories just as a legal action was taken about the man whose words set the whole thing in motion. --amberglow
OMFG you nitwit.
You've somehow created a MeFI persona's that simultaneously ditzy, paranoid and stubbornly self-righteous, and I no longer care how many who've met you at meetups protest you're "really nice"—you're obviously a douche when it comes to honesty. You called a perfectly nice poster a liar when she gave you their explanation.If nothing else, you should acknowledge making accusations off-site is tasteless & weaselly. Your head is characteristically far up your ass on this one.
But will you apologize for getting it wrong?
(Will unicorns descend from GumDropLand and start singing?)
Jenleigh, you're looking at this the wrong way. The irony of amberglow accusing someone else of "tactical posting" is hilarious. Surely that gave you a good laugh.
This isn't the first time amberglow has objected to a conservative post. It kills him that they even exist (no matter that 95 percent of all political post on mefi are pro liberal/anti conservative).
And yes, email would have been nice, but there's no group "attention" given to a private email, and so wasn't considered I'm sure. Besides, that would require the smallest amount of class.
Too damn bad, dhoyt--i don't buy her explanation at all. A suspiciously-timed re-post of a link that was in that very same poster's own earlier thread 2 months ago? Get fucking real. And, again, i'm not the first one to point that out.
Look in a mirror the next time you feel the need to call someone else names, dhoyt. I called her out in that very thread, as did fleacircus--there was no response. I posted here about it, questioning whether it was kosher, since i obviously didn't think it was.
douche? look in the mirror, hon--or is it that you don't read the threads that result from your posts either? is that it? do people make FPPs and then not even read the comments? funny...
In case you happen to return here Amberglow I would like to go on record saying that I think it was ill-conceived of you to start a thread about your deductions about jenleigh's posting motivations - either in this forum or in MeTa actually - it should have been via email.
FWIW I'm fairly ignorant in that I haven't read all of the threads or linked articles cited. But at this point, I don't think that really matters. AT ALL.
I object to your deductions. Period. It reeks of the same style employed by the insinuative Heywood Magroot in his attempt at flailing of TDDL the other week but with much much much less evidence.
I actually haven't formed an opinion about jenleigh's politics although I've sometimes seen some very abusive criticism of her here and there. If I had to 'rate' her style of posting, to the extent that I ever remember most members, it would be that she contributes from different spheres of life and not just politics so I'm less likely to envision her as a barrow pushing zealot of any particular persuasion. And in any event I do specifically remember a couple of the threads from her posts in which I was involved and my thinking was not particularly dissimilar to jenleigh's.
And I'm a loonytunes lefty like yourself. Or at least, I have leanings that way, but still like to hear balanced input, sadly often lacking from many a person's post on politics to the blue.
Also, Seymour Hersh --- the article in dispute if I've correctly divined the context, refers to his apparent or alleged loose lips style when he is the subject of an interview doesn't it? Well, that is OLD news. I may be in Oz but I respect the guy's track record, but just after the Abu Ghraib piece he (thankfully for everyone's sake) wrote, I heard him (or read something) that went into great detail about his hedging with the 'truth' when he was speaking with people. I thought it odd at the time but it (or he, I forget) made it plain that he maintains different styles for print or speaking forums. I still think it's odd but I'll still read what he has to say. But like anything I ever read, it's without blind acceptance - I try to judge everything on the merits of the case presented.
And I don't think you've really done that here Amberglow. jenleigh has outlined her side and you've called her a liar. I really really really think that's unfair and it will gain you a lot of credibility if you were to publically apologize. By all means, maintain a skepticism of her political beliefs and argue them out in the blue threads. But it's patently illogical for you to maintain the theory without evidence. It's not "where there's smoke.." criteria. Seriously.
What peacay said. I like you in person, amberglow, and I share a lot of your politics, but you're being a complete dick here. You seriously do seem to think that anyone who has different opinions from you is barely human and deserves no courtesy whatever. I pay as much attention to people's humanity as to their politics (well, more, actually), and I think I'm pretty good at distinguishing assholes from civilized folks on both ends of the political spectrum. Jenleigh has political views I don't agree with, but she's been consistently polite and nonconfrontational, and there's no reason whatever to think she's not telling the truth. (No, I don't always click on all the links in comments in my threads, either.) You made a mistake, you made it worse by continuing your vendetta here, and like the man said, it would gain you a lot of credibility if you were to publicly apologize. But you probably won't, because like jenleigh said, I have never heard you recant or apologize for anything. Ah well.
Now someone should post a link to the monkeyfilter discussion in sportsfilter, and their livejournal (just to be sure) and the circle will be complete.
I propose that the first rule of MeCha is that we keep the grudges, ax-grinding, and personality conflicts of MeFi out of here. You wanna do that shit, take it somewhere else. And no bad-mouthing people behind their backs. That's a grade school move.
On the train last night a drunk told me about the badgers and how they're taking over the world. "They're neither black nor white" he told me, "that's creepy."
I asked him about the hedgehogs. He said that hedgehogs were evil also, but the badgers were the leaders, so they were the ones I had to watch out for.
Badgers are evil, there's no getting around it, but it's the moles who are really scary. You don't see them, but you know they're underground, doing who knows what... or is it the voles? Dammit. See if you can find that drunk again and ask him.
After we determined there was a global (almost masonic) conspiracy run by the badger overlords, he kept asking me if I hated the badgers. I asked if he was working for the badgers. He said no.
So I looked scared, said I was joking and started saying how much I liked the badgers. He kept telling me to say something bad about the badgers, but I refused.
At my stop, I said I was just getting off here, but I didn't live here, and anyway I loved the badgers really.
He said "I think you hate the badgers."
I did one of those false laugh things and bolted.
It was a hilarious conversation.
I'm having flashbacks to the Thread Which Shall Not be Named: watching a stubborn user who is clearly wrong plug his ears, close his eyes, and avoid accountability like it was kryptonite rather than admitting a misjudgment. Is AR your sockpuppet, amber?
For Christ's sake, the girl gave a benign explanation for posting and your response is "it smells, i stand by my words". Show a minimum of class and at least apologize for starting an offsite thread just to cast aspersions on her diabolical "tactical posting" methods.
Surely, seanyboy, the drunken gentlemen you refer to was a fan of the University of Wisconsin Badgers, rather than the animal itself. The UW Badgers are the greatest college team in the NCAA, and their fans are renowned for their rabidity and drunkeness. ON WISCONSIN!
amberglow, I never thought I would say this (usually you are the voice of reason not anger), chill out on this one. Even if you are right about her motives, which would seem out of character for jenleigh, who cares? Let it lie, or at least just agree to disagree.
>Yes, I'm so partisan I post glowing things about the UN, or impeaching Bush, or about homeless vets.
Now that's tactical. Excellent work.
>But to MeFites I'm a "neocon" til the end because either you can't be bothered to get to know me or you're too lazy to make subtle distinctions.
I think you're right about the "getting to know me" and "subtle distinctions" but not the laziness part, I think a lot of effort goes into the conclusions.
>Yes, I'm so partisan I post glowing things about the UN, or impeaching Bush, or about homeless vets.
Now that's tactical. Excellent work.
>But to MeFites I'm a "neocon" til the end because either you can't be bothered to get to know me or you're too lazy to make subtle distinctions.
I think you're right about the "getting to know me" and "subtle distinctions" but not the laziness part, I think a lot of effort goes into the conclusions.
i really don't think so
people to people
person to person
but this has the heavy scent of public drama between assumptions put to the loftiest level of people projecting their own issues on two people who are just clumps of text to each other.
people want an end to their story, like they are following an arguement in a restaurant and chasing them down the street to find out what happens
dude, i was not trying to pick scabs here
but with everyone weighing in with and without personal investments, i finally wanted to weigh in with mine and the only thing i find interesting about it:
that anyone needs some world wide justification for anything is idiocy.
i think i'm probably the only person present to have their real life kinda fucked around my mefi, hence i have a right to an opinion.
all i see are postures of pride
that no one needs to justify but to people who think they are playing.
I was in the wrong for protesting Amber's behavior, and he was right to suspect the most diabolical of intentions on my behalf.
Full disclosure: Karl Rove pays me commission for every "hit piece" I post about Seymous Hersh. I was saving up for a pup tent and hoping this last post would put me over the edge.
Amber's response here is cooperative, compromising and humble:
"I've said all i need to--repeatedly."
You see, he's said what he needs to say repeatedly, over and over, and thus by sheer numbers he has proven himself to be correct in the end.
whether you discover you are an unwitting pawn or become the next president
i just don't see what satisfaction is to be gained
right here right now
people have picked sides that have nothing to do with your politics.
do you want him to say you are right or just have some sad sign of concession bullied on by the masses
unless you have people monitoring this for other reasons
what do you get out of it?
The expression is "all thumbs" and it most certainly does not apply to me - you have zero chance of getting me to fix any two-cycle engines you may have. :(
just for jenleigh:
now that you're wondering who the hell i am
consider for a moment that this site is not an extra mefi feature
i have no idea how old your are, where you are, who you are
and you have none of me as far as i know.
if this is the only thread in this site you are checking, find the dumb fable on the jonmc
(who i fear i have empowered)
i understand how you feel and why you feel what you do but
if you feel that having your ideas countered is too devastating to your identity, figure out where to disengage.
same to the lot of you.
i've already thrown myself on the altar of humilty once on this site
for the satisfaction of the viewing audience
period
ps. stop following me mindlessly, mlis. my cat is dead
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