MetaChat REGISTER   ||   LOGIN   ||   IMAGES ARE OFF   ||   RECENT COMMENTS




artphoto by splunge
artphoto by TheophileEscargot
artphoto by Kronos_to_Earth
artphoto by ethylene

Home

About

Search

Archives

Mecha Wiki

Metachat Eye

Emcee

IRC Channels

IRC FAQ


 RSS


Comment Feed:

RSS

29 January 2012

skeptical accomodation of religion so I'm reading my Burke (ok, just looking up a quote) and come across this paragraph[More:]

He's talking about French Revolutionaries forcefully confisticating and disbanding church properties or something along those lines:

Did fifty thousand persons whose mental and whose bodily labor you might direct, and so many hundred thousand a year of a revenue which was neither lazy nor superstitious, appear too big for your abilities to wield? Had you no way of using them but by converting monks into pensioners? Had you no way of turning the revenue to account but through the improvident resource of a spendthrift sale? If you were thus destitute of mental funds, the proceeding is in its natural course. Your politicians do not understand their trade; and therefore they sell their tools.

But the institutions savor of superstition in their very principle, and they nourish it by a permanent and standing influence. This I do not mean to dispute, but this ought not to hinder you from deriving from superstition itself any resources which may thence be furnished for the public advantage. You derive benefits from many dispositions and many passions of the human mind which are of as doubtful a color, in the moral eye, as superstition itself. It was your business to correct and mitigate everything which was noxious in this passion, as in all the passions. But is superstition the greatest of all possible vices?


He's out and out calling the (catholic?) church system superstitious; but even in his contempt he's more 'protective' of it than the revolutionaries. It's essentially an appeal to the circumstantial convenience of religious institutions. Here's something similar I came across last night while watching some Stokely Carmichael (later Kwame Ture; the guy who popularized 'black power' in the 60s) on youtube:

If you're a Marxist-Leninist, you must be an atheist. That means you must say that, "God does not exist." I used to tell them, "Ok, I can say it. No problem. But my people?" *laughs* Not in this generation. Maybe the next one, but not in this one. For them God and revolution, religion and revolution are one and the same. [...] Nat Turner was a righteous preacher. [...] Malcolm X was a rigtehous Muslim preacher. Martin Luther King was a righteous Christian preacher. Jesse Jackson is a preacher. Minister Louis Farrakhan is a preacher. So if you look very properly, you'll see for us Africans, religion and revolution has never had this dialectical break. [...]

I'll give you one example. Once in Greenville, Mississipi. When I was doing a program there, of protest against the police. We had to fill the jails, but there were young kids and the discipline was breaking down. So I had to go into the jail to establish discipline. So I picked some cadre to go with me just to go to jail and made two lines to confuse the police.

I looked up on the line and I hand picked and I see an old woman on the end of it.

I run back there, I said, "Ma'am, you're in the wrong line." I said, "this line is getting arrested."
She said, "I know, that's what they told me."
I said, "You ain't going to jail."
She said, "Yes I am."
I said, "They're brutal in there!"
She said, "I know, they brutalized my daughter, brutalized my granddaughter, now I must go."
I said, "They don't respect age nor sex."
She said, "I know." She said, "You worried about me son?"
I said, "Ma'am, I'm very worried about you up in there."
"Don't you worry son, I got a telephone in my bosom. Soon as they touch me, I'mma call Jesus. He gonna take care of me."

*laughs* What am I going to do with that? *laughs* Tell her take the telephone out her bosom?



I think there is a long tradition of intellectual secular people with political skills who have really 'lithe' views on religion, who step in and out of communities of religion with maybe a *touch* of patronizing thoughts ("I don't believe this stuff, but I'll roll with the rituals") but that patronizing is still better than dealing with things on the face of it and ending up with an Us vs Them thing going on. In a way all social / political people have to do this to some extent because even if they're religious they deal with members of some other religion they don't belong to; so they respect and maybe even participate in the 'shadowboxing' of mechanistic participation in rituals of funerals and weddings, prayers, etc. In the end these are all manifestations of social behavior as much as they're theological. It's hypocritical in a way if you look through the young-20something atheist lens of the reddit generation, but, in a Burkean conservative way, it's very wise.
"But is superstition the greatest of all possible vices?" Yes.

"In the end these are all manifestations of social behavior as much as they're theological." Yes.

"if you look through the young-20something atheist lens of the reddit generation," You lose me here as the "young-20something...reddit generation" seems a whole lot more "theological" than my "young-20something" generation.
posted by arse_hat 29 January | 02:20
"But is superstition the greatest of all possible vices?" Yes.

"In the end these are all manifestations of social behavior as much as they're theological." Yes.

QFT.
posted by BoringPostcards 29 January | 02:46
well, going by the revolutionary death count and Robespierrian terrors, I think Burke was right about the need for caution. What's a greater vice than superstition? Massacring civilians seeking religious liberty.
posted by Firas 29 January | 03:06
Yeah, social behavior.

Anyway, I've found that the older I get, the less concerned I am with spiritual hypocrisies and inconsistencies. Human beings (even athiests) are not terribly consistent and there's no reason to imagine they would be. We are subject to more powerful motivators than just rational intellect. Carmichael is right not to ignore these forces, and without a coalition that includes believers, few social movements get anywhere. Liberation theology was essential to the success of the civil rights movement and in fact, to today's economic justice movements.

And I have given up expecting people to personally arrive at positions of perfect purity with regard to skepticism vs. belief. The dichotomy is unnecessary and very few people manage it anyway. Doubt is healthy - doubt all of it, complete certaintly included; participate in what makes sense to you, be respectful, understand there may come times when you are less pure in your skepticism (or belief) han you think you may be.

In the end I'm not sure how 'revolutionary' it ever is to seek to forcibly replace another person's worldview with your own. Creating coalitions is enough, hewing to the ideological line is usally more than is necessary.
posted by Miko 29 January | 12:26
IMO most behavior is driven by base, baked in instincts, including strong motivations to follow social norms. Some people are more selfish, others less selfish. You can find examples of self-sacrifice among atheists, (Pat Tillman, for example) Changing religion only changes the social norms you think are important, and even, probably not by much.
posted by delmoi 29 January | 14:58
"our taxi driver told us he had paid 30 pigs for his second wife. || These guys launched a LEGO man into space.

HOME  ||   REGISTER  ||   LOGIN