Wow, power struggle. He's got you wrapped around his finger, all right! I'm not a parent, so I have no practical solutions for getting him into bed on time, but as a former teacher of little kids it does seem to me that he might be old enough for some consequences. You're getting pulled into a situation where's he oppositional, so you feel you either have to use force or be dominated by him. there's another option - clearly explain, ahead of time, how bedtime is going to go, and that if it doesn't, there will be no _____ [desired luxury/privilege] tomorrow. Then let the chips fall where they may; if he's oppositional, let him struggle and fuss and stay up too late, but enact the consequence in the morning and explain why.

I'm not entirely sure he's old enough for this approach, mainly because time is different for little kids and he might not be that well able to connect things that are happening tomorrow with what's happening right now. HE will soon, though. What's sure is that the power struggle is going to keep draining you. You need to get back in control, for your own sanity and his. I'm eager to hear what other say.

"time is different for little kids"

That was why I was in the "swat hard enough to get his attention" camp until he was old enough not to need it.

Man, I feel for you. It's so hard to have someone you love so much acting like a holy terror.

I think the key is consistency. Same bedtime, same routine, same rules. If there is bad behaviour, yes, give the warning and a statement about what will happen if his behaviour continues. If the warning doesn't work, follow through with the consequences, and explain why. (I think Miko's suggestion of no _____ [desired luxury/privilege] tomorrow is indeed a bit premature: he's too young to understand tomorrow.) But then no more discussion, no more explaining. If it's time to go to bed, that's it. Put him in bed.

From reading your post, I think you did the right thing. I think also, that you may be interacting with a him a bit too much. He's getting a reaction out of you, and that's what he wants. Put him to bed, kiss him goodnight, and leave the room. If he gets out of bed, wordlessly (and that is key) put him back to bed and wordlessly leave the room. If he pinches, bites, laughs... put him back into bed and wordlessly leave the room.

It may be hell for the first few nights, but I'm willing to bet that each night will be a bit better, and within a week or two, bedtime will be smooth sailing. He will learn that you mean business, that resisting is just not going work.

Well, I raised three and remember the bedtime skirmishes I went thru with each.

Apparently you do not believe in spanking. However that was part of my parenting toolbox, and willful defiance definitely earned a spanking. Done calmly consistently and firmly, I still believe this is kinder to a child in the long run than other methods-again, for willful defiance, not childish mistakes.

Whatever method you employ, however, I implore you-for his own sake he needs to know you are the boss. Children need that security and need to respect those who are responsible for their care and upbringing. And you deserve respect for being his parent.

I feel for you. Some kids are easier than others-one of mine had the proverbial cast iron rear end but even with her she learned her limits and after several weeks learned that bedtime was bedtime.

Apparently you do not believe in spanking. However that was part of my parenting toolbox,

I don't believe in hitting or spanking; in large part because a big part of the problem I have with him is getting him not to hit. I can't imagine that hitting him while saying "I'm hitting you because you hit me" would be anything other than counterproductive.

Good thoughts, everyone, and thanks for your sympathy and well-thought out responses. More please!

I'm not a parent, so I won't give any advice beyond saying that some of the suggestions already made sound really sound. Also, I know from experience how hard it is to do something "wrong" during an emotional situation and then feel guilty afterward. I can't imagine how it must feel for you after you slapped his hand, but I think you really have to forgive yourself for being human.

I'm trying to remember what my parents would do, but it was different because my brother and I were sleeping in the same room at that point (when he was 3 and I was 18 months). My brother was very protective of me, so a simple, "You will wake up the baby" was enough for him to settle down at bed-time. By the time I was that age I had already internalized the bed-time ritual. We were also rather small children so it was easy for my parents to physically put us into bed.

I really do think you're on the right track. I can imagine that it's heartbreaking to discipline a child, but I guarantee that doing the hard work now will pave the way for a smoother childhood.

(Also, after reading the comments on your blog: I can see why your adverse to leaving him alone as a form of punishment, but in cases where he is physically hurting you, it is important to show that such behavior is absolutely unacceptable. You can give him a warning first - "Stop hurting me or I will leave" - but you need to follow up on it. I'm not advocating using discipline in situations where he's being wiggly and disobedient - only in situations where he's willfully harming you)

Put him to bed, kiss him goodnight, and leave the room.

This is good advice, too. Don't participate in extending that bedtime routine. Leave the room, shut the door, and don't go back in until wakeup time. He surely will kick up a fuss, but once he learns it has no result, he will stop.

I suspected he might be too young to understand that actions one day are related to consequences the next day. Save that for later.

There's no need to spank. It's not clear at all that it's any more effective than any other disciplinary method, and it can sometimes escalate and become a channel for parental exhaustion and anger, and sometimes create negative outcomes for kids. It works in the short term but at what cost? That varies person to person. I understand your reservations, and though lots of people do spank and have not found it a problem, it's also quite true that there are lots and lots of well-behaved kids out there that have never been spanked. I wouldn't say it's the only solution. There are a lot of other tools in the child-rearing toolbox.

Some suggestions here too, some focused on toddler-aged kids.

Oh, anastasiav...I feel your pain so much. I went through the same exact thing with my daughter. Including the swatting out of utter desperation/self defense. (It was the only time I ever laid a hand on her, and her response was exactly the same as your son's!) And she, too, just flat-out refused time out. Let me tell you--it does get better. She's 7 now, a great sleeper, extraordinarily well-behaved and just a fantastic kid. Mostly, she just had to grow out of it. She's a really independent kid and in retrospect, I think she just didn't like being little and getting bossed around all the time.

The one thing we have done different with her brother (who is 2) is to let go of the elaborate bedtime routine. The longer it goes on, the more opportunity there is to elongate it even further. (We've also got him in a crib tent and plan on keeping him in one until he goes to college--or figures out how to unzip it.) And I tend not to argue with him as much as I did with her either. I tell him "why" once and then that's that. No amount of explanation is going to change a toddler's mind--and no amount of protestation is going to change mine--so why bother?

So take heart, anastasiav, things will improve. In the meantime, just stay firm and consistent and keep in mind that it's pretty much their job to be assholes at this age. (Our job is to make sure they don't grow up to be assholes as adults.)

E-mail is in my profile if you need a sympathetic ear.

... and these are the easy years.

Reading your comments gives a lot of food for thought.

1. It sounds like the bedtime routine isn't consistent. Sometimes you sleep with him, sometimes you don't. Sometimes he gets a story, sometimes he behaves badly and doesn't. The first thing I think you should do is settle into a single, predictable routine. Kids really need consistency. It causes anxiety for them when they're guessing about what's going to happen tonight, watching things change and not knowing why. Establish a routine, do all things in the same order night by night, and it would make sense to stop sleeping with him. Of course when you choose not to, he'll interpret that he's been rejected, and then of course he'll act nasty and hurt. Because he is. If you set the standard that you just don't do that as part of bedtime any more, after an initial adjustment period he'll become comfortable with it. And this will have to happen one day or another, so establishing it now will make sense - otherwise, he'll either have to push you out as he becomes independent, or he'll continue it to a point which would be unhealthy for the establishment of his own personality.

2. I think you might be enabling the bad behavior because you're afraid of something. You say:

I'm not squeamish about disciplining him. I'm squeamish about walking away from him. My own mother did that, and all I ever took from it was that she wouldn't love me unless I was perfectly good. (My mom and I have a complex relationship for many reasons.)

Oddly, you are sending the exact same message to your son by sleeping with him some nights and not others. He's not sure why that is. He can't perceive that you're just tired, can't be sure why some nights you get angry and some not, and can't control his behavior well because he's so anxious. So you're not predictable, and he needs to keep reassuring himself that he can get your attention - and you keep playing along. No wonder it's nuts.

You're not your mom. And you don't want to parent your own child in reaction to the way you were parented - you want to parent in the way that's right for your son. Consistency and routine will be really good for him at this point. Go through the bedtime routine, kiss him goodnight, tuck him in, and walk out of the room. If he calls, respond simply from the other room by calling "go to sleep." That's more than sufficient for him to know you're nearby. If he decides to raise hell in the night, so be it. In the morning, wake up time is wake up time. He'll regulate himself as he settles into this routine.

3. Finally,it sounds like your schedule is a big culprit. You want to spend time with him, but you don't have enough time, so the time you do have becomes about your need to be with him rather than establishing a routine that's healthy and predictable for him. Your needs are trumping his - and then, by trying to meet his needs, you stop meeting yours. Bad dynamic. Is there anything - anything - you can do to have more interpersonal time with him during the week? Even if you can't, you might just have to tough this period out while he learns to sleep on his own. I understand wanting to be with your son, and he knows you love him. Don't worry about that. What he needs is the standard security of a routine and a mom who's rested and comfortable in that routine, too.

One of the parenting videos that we watched in my Child & Parent Therapy class was called "1-2-3 Magic." More info on the technique here.

I haven't been a parent, so I'm hesitant in general to recommend parenting solutions (especially anything that comes across as "Oh, it's so easy, just..."), but I think that info might help in working with toddlers. The basic idea is that you want to make ONE, unemotional request for a behavior to stop ("Stop hitting me"); if it continues, you say "That's one." Give it two or three seconds, and if it still continues, you say "That's two"; another two or three seconds and you say, "That's three" and give a time out, which should be one minute for each year of the child's age.

The counting's not mystically problem-solving or anything, but it does give parents a structured way to interact with the child without getting emotional or getting wrapped up in the content of what the child is saying.

I'm going through that now with Younger Boy. He's four and I can still physically contain him, but he's very smart and very fast. The only reason I caught him when he ran away in the store the other day is because he wiped out taking a turn too fast.

He is trying to get a reaction, and is trying to test the fences and boundaries.

I do/did spank, but only in life/death situations - running away in the parking lot, running away toward a street. When he did that at daycare, he wasn't allowed outside.

Bedtime is a whole other thing. He needs rest, I need rest, brother needs rest.

I try to make it as consistent as I can. Brush teeth, potty break*, read story, have some free time, lights out.

Challenges: we don't always get home at the same time. They spend a lot of time with their dad after school, and sometimes we stay longer and chat, or they're playing or whatever.

Challenge, revealed by Miko** - my own inconsistency in staying with them a little while or not. On days when I have energy I stay in the room. Other days I'll put them down and leave because I don't want to get into a shouting match - but then we will. I'll end up swaddling him and keeping him on the bed until he settles down.

Also I've been trying to have more 'quantity' time with both boys during the day and week. I'll put off chores or have them do them with me. Older Boy is better at this than his brother. I think we're still in the adjustment stage.

One thing I'm doing now is rereading Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. I first read it when Older Boy was 3.5, so this is probably pretty normal.

The one thing I remember from the first reading: When you're angry, you're focused on what you don't want. What you focus on you get more of.

Also Ten steps from anger to compasionate connection

Good luck!

============================
*we've had some regression on the pottying, so there's often a side discussion on whether he's going to sit on the pot or get a pull up.
**thanks! I totally wasn't seeing that

Duct tape.

Ahem.

I'm not a mom, but I raised two nieces and a nephew for a few years and Miko gave the same advice I would. A set routine for bedtime and refusal to engage in his antics.

Oh .. I so feel for you. My son is almost three and I know how hard it is. Lots of good advice above. I think everyone is right about refusing to engage with him and not allowing any extension of the bedtime routine. Close the door and be done with him. Any chance you can cultivate "the look" that your husband has?

I know that incredibly frustrated absolutely fed up feeling so well. It's such a thankless job sometimes. By the end of the day I'm sometimes so happy to say "goodnight" to Jack. He gave up napping more than a year ago so he actually goes down pretty hard at bedtime. If your son still naps, would a shorter nap make him sleepier at bedtime? Or maybe just crankier?

You have my sympathy and my best wishes that things get better. You are not alone. Sometimes I look forward to that glass of wine SO much. I think you should have one right now.

Meh. Just wait till he's 21.

my boy is 16 months (today!) and my once-excellent sleeper became not-excellent a while back. We are now working on it. Since I have no advice, I will just say, good luck, because I need some too :-)

I'm the mother of a rambunctious 1 year old who had sleep issues in the damn womb so I feel your pain.

I am definitely a non-smacking Mum. Not for any new age hippie reasons but simply because it never made sense to me as a kid regarding the whole hypocrisy of it. I can't say that all the ways of getting out frustration have been healthy but they haven't been directed at EM.

It does help to have someone intervene sometimes to break up the tension.

As others have said he's probably testing you - so you need to find a method that works for you guys which takes the interpersonal struggle out of bed time. I am thinking for us to make up a magnetic board with the routine (in text and pictures) and get EM to "tick off" with a magnet items as we go. I'm hoping that this means he'll learn what has to be done and then it's sleep - rather than becoming a struggle between us. (Also it might help Daddy get the routine down too.)

We just went through an annoying pinching stage which we are almost past now - everytime he did it I said no sternly and looked disappointed. Seems to have worked this time - but with kids who knows next time?

*hugs*

anastasiav, I feel for you.

I'm by no means an ideal parent but I'll give some of my thoughts.

Could it be that your husband is taken more seriously because he doesn't waffle? My husband commands a bit more respect than I do because he isn't wishy-washy. I am occasionally guilty of being inconsistent. One minute I'm threatening that there will be no story and then next minute I'm reading. The kids will push and push if there is a possibility of mom giving in.

The best advice I can give is to say what you mean and mean what you say.

Your kid is playing you and most moms (parents) have been played.

I don't know if I would give "naughtiness" as the reason why you aren't sleeping with your son. Is this the truth? Because of his behavior you aren't sleeping with him? Or, did you really want to sleep on your own that evening regardless of his behavior? I'm afraid that these kind of his conditions could cause him to feel bad and insecure. It could be interpreted that mom is withholding affection because of behavior. I would just tell him the truth: "Mommy can't sleep with you tonight because I want to sleep in my own bed." "Mommy can't sleep with you tonight because I have work to do this evening." "Mommy can't sleep with you tonight because I am going to watch a movie with Daddy.", etc.

I can't remember how firm I was when my kids were three but I've always been pretty firm and I don't tolerate much nonsense. My younger child had a period of coming out of the room when he was a toddler and we would scoop him up again and again and put him back in bed. I think he tried that about three nights before he gave up and settled in. Before they were preschool age we would let them stay up until 9 or so because they were on our schedule. They went to sleep without much protest because they were tired and we a had a rough routine. During preschool and the school years things were, and are, even better because we have a routine and they are tired by bedtime and they know what is expected of them. Basically they know that once they are in bed there is no chance of coming out or whining. I don't know how much I helped but like others have said: create some clear expectations and stick with them.

Good luck, anastasiav. It will get better.

So, you've been taking care of my son?

Believe me I understand. We tried spanking for willful disobedience and stopped when we saw that he misunderstood spanking and started spanking dolls.

My son, we believe, feels frustrated and out of control and his behavior is his way of expressing that (by controlling what he can - your response). He is also the size of a 4 year old at 2. Add in that when he feels out of control, his feelings overwhelm him. We tried the Nurtured Heart approach which worked wonders for his sister (and you might try it - it's a very thoughtful. geared for ADHD, it may work for you), which didn't work for him. We've found that if we label his feelings for him, he starts to build a way to talk about how he feels and then we can start talking about other things he can do instead. Right now timeouts do little for him in the traditional way. He often time *needs* honestly needs to be removed from the situation to simmer down. If he's gone far enough off the handle, only time will fix it. Consoling makes it worse. As someone else on mefi said, a kicking screaming fit isn't nearly as fun when you're alone. So he gets longer time outs that he is allowed to moderate. "You need to stay in your room until you can be nice." Nice can be vague, so at calmer times you can talk about what it means. When he's done, I ask him to tell me why he got his time out. Usually he's right. If he's not, I correct and make sure he understands.

We absolutely spell out consequences. We have a bathtub splasher on our hands which neither of us likes, so we make it clear what he'll lose (usually it means straight to bed after bath - no books). When it looks like he's going to, we remind him. If he splashes, privilege goes away without too much stressing ("Sorry, you splashed that means...?" "no book. MY BE NICE!" "Too late."), and move on.

Stuart has a bed time ritual with me. Mrs. Plinth's is different, which is fine. She was shocked to discover that with me he willingly gets out of my lap and climbs into bed. I just set a pattern - I read two books max, rock him a bit then ask him if he's ready to get into bed. More often than not he is. I'm now starting to ask him if he wants me to sit and stay for a bit and I'll see where that goes. Don't be sad or hurt or insulted if he does things differently with you than with others. You are a different person.

I think for you, you need to not engage him. My son likes to run away instead of getting dressed. Running away is a lot of fun when someone is chasing you. Not so much when they're not. I will try to just sit patiently and calmly until he comes back. He doesn't always.

Once in a while, he needs a bottom swat. Not a full-on spanking, just a bottom swat. Sometimes, I can ask him if he wants to listen with his ears or with his bottom. That he understands.

The other side of this is that we HEAP on the praise when he does good things (and he does). We've trained him to say please and thank you and we sing praises to heaven for positive reinforcement. When he shares nicely with his sister, same thing. When he does a good job listening and cleaning up. This helps him, but it also helps you remember that there is most certainly a good boy in there.

Some small snakes on the floor will get him into bed.

*big hugs*

I'm not and will never be a parent, but I'm in the "actions have consequences" camp...the toddlers I've been around have responded positively to this.

Eid, you made me laugh.

He often time *needs* honestly needs to be removed from the situation to simmer down. If he's gone far enough off the handle, only time will fix it. Consoling makes it worse. As someone else on mefi said, a kicking screaming fit isn't nearly as fun when you're alone. So he gets longer time outs that he is allowed to moderate. "You need to stay in your room until you can be nice." Nice can be vague, so at calmer times you can talk about what it means. When he's done, I ask him to tell me why he got his time out. Usually he's right. If he's not, I correct and make sure he understands.

My parents did this a lot with my brother and I. I still remember throwing a fit in a store and being pulled out to sit on the curb with my dad until I calmed down. And taking time-out in my room until "I could be nice" - usually I'd be really angry for a couple minutes, then defiantly play with my toys, then feel bad and ask to come out.

I never really understood the concept of "time out" (my parents didn't really use them, though I guess we did get sent to our rooms) until I read that they're a way of teaching children that when one is overwhelmed with emotion and therefore unable to act rationally, the appropriate response is to take some time by oneself, regulate one's breathing and heart rate, and calm down before proceeding to interact with people again. That while they are a punishment, they're also a teaching tool for healthy handling of negative emotion.

Time outs make sense if you have a cat. Isolation is a more effective way to calm a cat than anything else.

I haven't been above the occasional slap on the behind, more as a humiliation than anything else, but unfortunately with my special-needs nieces -- one especially -- it merely escalates and she will hit back hard. So despite what I think I'm doing, it's obviously counterproductive.

I've seen "1-2-3 Magic" also and I think it has really good points, especially that you should state your request unemotionally, not repeat your request, and not engage in persuasion if persuasion is developmentally inappropriate.

Dhartung, "1-2-3 Magic" was part of training for me to work with special needs clients... I thought it was very helpful!