Oh richat, I am so very sorry to hear this. My kids are the same age as yours. From your posts you can tell that you are a very caring parent. I think you have the right idea by telling them the truth in a sesitive manner and letting them know, and demonstrating, that they are your top priority. This is a confusing, heartbreaking time and I wish you and your family much love and peace.

No advice here, but man, I am so sorry to hear this. Like Lori said, your bond with your kids is totally visible to anyone who knows you, even online. My thoughts will be with you and the girls. *hug*

My ex and I split when my kids were 7 and 4. The 4 year-old took it in stride, as he hadn't established a sense of what was normal and unexpected yet, so it all must have been normal. My 7 year-old daughter was pretty messed up by it all, and there's really not much you can do at that age except be with her as much as possible, reassure her, answer her questions as honestly as you can, and never ever ever say anything negative about her mother. Also, get counseling for everyone involved when necessary.

I'm really sorry, richat. No advice either, I'm afraid :(

I do think though, that you're so obviously a wonderful, caring parent that as you go through this awful time, your solid relationship with your kids will stand you in good stead. That suggestion of role playing in the ask me thread sounds like a good one.

Have you thought about living next door/down the street/in the same apartment complex? Might make things easier for them? disregard this if it wouldn't work for you.

I left you a long answer in the AskMe thread Richat but I wanted to reiterate how sorry I am and that I have also been through this, many years ago now, but still, and that it is possible for everyone to come through just fine in the end. Hugs, and all.

Thanks guys. It's been a rough couple of years on a personal level. I'm feeling stronger and better all the time, again, on a personal level. How this affects my girls is really the only issue I have right now, and the only thing that I'm still hurting about. I do find some solace in the idea that even online, you can tell how important these two kids are to me. Cliched as it may sound, I really do love them and I do intend on being as present as possible as we move forward and through this.

BTGOG, we haven't actually really nailed down custodial decisions yet. And, yeah, just today I pitched an idea other than what we had discussed thus far. My plan remains, if I am the one to be moving out of the home we've shared so far, is to try to get a place closer to their school if possible, which is not that far from the current home. No matter what, I'm not going far. Walking distance might be tough, but...it won't be far.

I'm so sorry, richat.

It'll hurt the kids. There's no real way around that. But you can mitigate the damage by making sure there's as little disruption and strife in their lives as possible.

By the Grace of God's suggestion is good — live as close to your current house as you can, so you can see the kids often. Never criticize your ex in front of your kids, as rocket88 says. Do your best to maintain cordial relations with your ex-wife. It'll be hard, of course. At first you may need to limit the topics of conversation to practical matters and to the kids.

Spend time with the girls and reassure them and answer their questions, but don't try too hard to get them to open up to you. They'll react and deal with it in their own ways. Just be sensitive to what they're expressing to you verbally or non-verbally, and try to give them whatever they seem to need.

I forgot to add that I it's ok to become emotional during the talk. I think it's important to maintain some sense of composure since you are the parent and they will probably be very upset if you are falling apart. I do think it's ok to show a little emotion because you're they're dad and you're human. This could be the wrong way to go about, so take it as you will. I'm thinking of you.

1) Both you and your soon-to-be-ex-wife should tell them together - the barrage of questions is best handled by both of you to get the replies right (ie; no blame, no kids fault, you guys just feel you'd be better off living apart or whatever your line will be)

2) Daughters will ask "where will WE live?", respond by asking "what would you like?". The answer is obvious, mommy and daddy should live in the same house, and us with you - but that's not why you're saying this. You're saying that you want their input because as parents you care what the kids think and value their input and this is how you show them this. Makes them feel less paralyzed. Now, if you've already discussed with mom where the kids shall be, bring that up now and tell the reasons why, ie; "We think it would be good that you stay here with mom, because your best friend lives across the street and school is only X away - but you can come and stay with me whenever you want". (or whichever deal you've worked out between you)

(also, dangit richat, I'm sorry)

Do what you can to have a space for them in your home. Not a guestroom they sleep in, but THEIR room with their toys in it. That will go a long way.
I think ulimately you'll be fine. You're worried about doing the right thing so you care enough to try.

I don't have any new advice for you other than the usual wise words already here, but I wanted to say I'm so sorry. You're a good person and a good parent and I know you will handle it very well.

Also, don't forget NOT THEIR FAULT and you need to tell them this a hundred times because they will think it is. And, whichever party who does not have them at their house full time needs to have a space for them (a room with only their stuff), so that they know they are still a massive room-owning part of that parents life. It's the mommy/daddy will never stop being your mommy/daddy that kids really need to see.

"....mommy/daddy [signal] that kids really need to see". I missed the word signal in that last line.

I know you're pretty local to me, richat, so feel free to email me for Ontario-specific custody/access/support advice. I've been through it all.

I don't have any advice, but I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, richat. I've been thinking about you. It sounds like you are doing as well as can be expected - better than that even. I'm sure you'll do your best for your girls always.

Oh, richat, I'm sorry. That sucks. And yeah, your love for your daughters shows here all the time. I think your plan to live close by is an excellent one. I wrote out some advice, but it's all said (and much better so) here and in the ask.me thread, especially by mgl. It sounds like you & your ex-wife are doing the right things; if both of you can stick with that approach (talking to the children together, working out decisions in advance through mediation, etc.) you're on the right track, and doing better than a lot of couples. Best of luck to you, and wishing you lots of strength for what's ahead.

I'm so sorry, richat. I'm not a child of divorce, but I would not keep silent to the kids about this. There were several family crises about which I was not told promptly and it made me very upset that I was kept in the dark.

I'm so sorry. You're all in my thoughts.

Richat, I'm so sorry.

Having no advice to give, I stayed out of your AskMe thread, but came straight in case of cross-posting.

Even from the partial picture of you I get from here, it's obvious that you're a devoted, loving, and great father. Your daughters will have a hard time with this upsetting news, but you can be confident that you're helping them deal with it well.

I'm so sorry for your pain. You're obviously a loving and supportive father. I'll be thinking of you all.

So sorry dear :(

Goddamn, richat, this feels like a punch in the gut. I'm so sorry.

I think I can pretty easily say that you're the best online dad I've ever seen (not as in you're only a dad in the internet sense, but that.... well, you know), and there's no doubt in my mind that you'll end up doing the right and best thing. It's what you're programmed for.

Here's wishing you the best, and all the strength you'll need.

No advice.

Ouch, richat, sorry to hear of this, it's tough. Don't have any real advice, except that if your kids are anything like any of the children of divorce I have known, there will be a time, maybe years down the road, when they resent you and their mom, or feel like you fucked them up or let them down, and the best thing you can do is accept it and not get mad at them for it; from their point of view (which will evolve, since you're raising them well and smartly) you did fuck up and let them down, and it sucks and hurts, but that's divorce. I've never known a child of divorce who didn't feel this way at some point, and only the ones whose parents resented them right back never got over it.

I sound like an asshole, pummeling you around when you're down. I don't mean to, I'm just saying be prepared for a rocky road, and when things smooth out, the love will still be there. Hang in there, trust your choice, and keep bending over backwards with understanding. And a big hug, what you're going through must be tough.

Everyone has given you great advice, so I'll just second what everyone has said here. (I will second specifically: letting your kids see how you're really feeling. They KNOW something's going on, and I can tell you from experience that wondering is worse that just being included in the bad news/sad feelings.)

It's very clear that you are a wonderful dad, so just keep doing what you're doing. The kids will process things in their own way at their own rate.

I'm so sorry you (and your wife and your kids) are going through this.

i just came here to write what mudpuppie just said.

i wanted to add that the custody negotiations will be horrible, just keep your cool and try to remember that a lot of the really awful stuff is coming from your ex-wife's attorney, or at least funneling through the attorney, and isn't what she said.

and if your attorney once, just once, even starts to assume that mom is the primary parent, that you're getting "visitation" instead of keeping parental custody of your children, just shared over two households, take your attorney to task for it. as your advocate, he has no business accepting the common notion that, as the dad, you should be happy with what you are given.

*sigh*

I am really sorry. No advice, other than make the time you spend with your kids as "normal" as possible, even if it's truncated beyond what you want.

Show up at their various events, even if it's awkward. You are their parent, and they need you.

I am hoping, for you, for joint and equal custody. Best wishes, dude.

I don't really have any advice, richat. I'm so sorry. I will keep you in my thoughts.

I've been there too, and my advice is to ask specific questions about specific issues when asking for the advice of others. General advice sounds great at the beginning but down the road, you find it mostly inapplicable or wrong for your situation. Hell, your wife and you may even find that the divorce agreements you make now no longer apply as soon as two years down the road, and then two years further, the entire situation has again changed.

"Divorce for Dummies" goes into all this malleability. It dispenses very little advice, but gives you instead the hard, cold information you need that is beyond the legal information you get from your lawyer. The book respects that each situation is different, but that does not change the rest of the world. Read it and view just how vast the external reality is that will influence your family's personal future.

Oh, and fyi, kids know. Even if they're not being treated to a community theater production of Whose Afraid of Virginia Woolf every night after lights out as I was in the final months of my parent's marriage, they're well aware that mommy and daddy have been upset with each other for a while now. Particularly the eight year old, who has a longer memory for comparison back to happier times. So with that, you may not be surprising them all that much. That, and almost surely, one of their friends or more has already been through the same thing.

(((richat))) I've been wondering how you were doing lately. Very sorry to hear the news, & wishing everyone warmth and peace as you all find your way. Love, love, love.

Hugh, it's cool. I don't know too many kids PERIOD who haven't blamed their parents for something at some point! I'm prepared for that.

And, thanks to all of you again. There's lots of good advice in here and on the ask.me thread, and I'll be rolling lots of it over in my head for the next little while.

So sorry to hear this. While many things are changing you will always be their dad and they will always be your girls. Only the day to day details will change.

richat, I'm so sorry, too. I know what a good father you are... and I know that will never change. Hang in there, friend. *hugs*

(((richat)))

In the askme thread - onhazier and explosion have said pretty much what I would say as a child of divorce.

I have no worries (not that I count in the equation) that you'll do what's right. Like said above by mudpuppie and others - you're obviously a good dad. I wish everyone was as lucky as your girls.

richat, I'm so sorry to hear this. You've had some great advice upthread.

As a former divorce lawyer, I'd add this: do not let your children dictate to you where they live or when they see you. I would see time and time again carefully-worked-out arrangements fall apart because an 8-year-old said "I want to live with Daddy". So the child goes to live with Daddy, and doesn't like it. "I want to live with Mummy". So she goes back to Mummy. Then - aha! - the child realises that she can manipulate the situation and her parents at whim. Perhaps not consciously, but in that way children have of realising that they can act in a certain way and get a particular reaction.

So, whatever arrangements you and your wife put in place, even if the children whine and cry and say they want something different, what they actually need, as opposed to want, is a stable routine and clear boundaries.

I'm not saying there has to be utter inflexibility, but the children have to know that the decision on where they live is not theirs to make, but yours as their parents. This will also take pressure of them to think that they have to try to please everyone all the time.

I'm sorry...

I should mention...we're going through a mediation approach, rather than a lawyer versus lawyer approach. Right now, we're discussing joint custody, I think likely one week here, one week there. It's amicable, at least...we're dealing with this stuff amicably. I'm not likely to vent any spleens on the internet anytime soon. Much as I like you lot :-)

(wishing I could favorite essexjan's answer. . .or favorite essexjan in general)

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. I know it's a difficult thing, but you seem to be doing all the right things.

My children's dad and I divorced in 2000 when they were 3 and 2 years old, so they really don't have many memories of things being any different. My ex also remarried within a couple years of our divorce, so they've been used to having a blended family during visits.

Due to our circumstances, I am the custodial parent and he has pretty standard visitation. This has worked out pretty well, especially considering that he tends to move frequently, and I tend to stay put. However, I'm pretty generous about extra time when it works well with our mutual schedules, regardless of our history, child support, etc. For instance, I was really worn out from work and illness right before spring break, and he was thrilled to have them for the entire week. I didn't have any trips planned or anything. In the past, we've negotiated around special plans without much trouble.

My ex and I will sit down at the kitchen table with coffee and a calendar and work it out. The kids see this and I think it helps them stay comfortable. They get to see and hear us having a reasonable conversation about what is best for them and also their sibling and all of their parents (I remarried last year). So, we kind of tackle it like a weird extended family, which is basically is at this point.

It still seems strange to me sometimes, considering how the relationship used to be, but I can't deny that it's definitely an improvement.

I think this is my long-winded way of saying that, as long as the adults can be reasonable with each other, it can be OK, especially after some time goes by.

So sorry richat.

I'm glad to hear things are amicable (well, as amicable as they can be in he situation, I'm guessing). I don't know your wife at all and I barely know you, but be careful about what you say, because the mediation approach can fall over and anything you have said/agreed to in the spirit of that process can blow up in your face. I'm not saying you should be adversarial, just be a bit guarded in what you say.

As others have said, don't let even the suggestion of there being one parent with custody and the other having visitation rights come up and, every time any person talks in that vein, contradict them clearly.

Good luck and I'm sorry your family has to go through this - I know what it can be like and I hope things stay amicable for everyone's sake.

I'm so sorry to hear about that richat, I have to run out right now but I just wanted to say I've been through it and survived and my son grew up to be fairly well adjusted adult and my ex- and I get along and nobody hates anyone. I'll try to put together some more complete thoughts and possibly useful advice for you in a few hours.

Ouch. This sucks, richat, I am so very sorry. During my first divorce, my kids were 4 and 1, and unfortunately had been front row to some loud fights (I am not proud of that). We sat them down together, (well, the 4 year old, anyway) and told them that Mommy and Daddy were not making each other happy, and wanted everyone to be happy, and that we would be moving (the kids and I moved out) out, but that Daddy would still see them a lot.

When I was 9, my dad came to tell my brother (age 5) and I that he was leaving. I was not upset, but that was because my dad wasn't nice and was abusive.

I think that if you both can continue to project a loving attitude toward your kids, and a friendly one toward each other, it will go a long way. Also, don't hide the fact that you are sad about the split. Even though my kids now are 15 and 12, I don't hide the fact that splitting up from Mr. V hurts a lot, even if it was the best thing to do.

I wish you well. It's a horrible thing to go through. Even if it's the only thing to do.

No advice. Child of a divorce but it was a messed up situation and I never saw my mom again after age 8. Just throwing in that detail to add that I turned out ok anyway, so having two loving functional parents, your girls are bound to be ok. Just love them and answer their questions as honestly as you can. Warm thoughts to you and your girls.

I don't have any advice, only whuffles for you, your daughters, and their mom.

(((((richat)))))

I had to think about this for a while, since my kids were a lot younger than yours when the Ex and I split up three years ago. They think it's odd that their aunts and uncles and grandparents live together, and truth be told, he and I get along better than some of my married friends and family, now that we're not trying to be married.

One thing that will be a constant trial is that before during and after the exchanges or transfers, the kids a lot of the time are going to be little shits. Whiny, uncooperative, guilt-trip attempts ("but Mom let us", "I wanted Mom to get me today!"). In the moment say - (calmly!), "this is what we're doing now", and then later talk to mom about what the two of you are going to do. See if there's room for compromise. Always the goal is to keep things as consistent as possible.

Inevitably there will be things you do differently. He gets them Cheetos all the time. I get them soda once a week. (He doesn't give them soda). I bake a lot of cakes with them, he gets box pizza and adds extra pepperoni. He has cable, I check out a lot of DVDs.

Get a shared calendar on Google, maybe several. You'll have your schedule, her schedule, and the kids' schedule. You can sign them up for alerts or print them out so everyone knows what to expect.

Figure out what you're going to do about keys to each others' place.

Drill the kids in all your phone numbers. I think they're old enough.

Have pictures of them with you and them with mom that they can keep around.

Let mom know what they have fun doing - not to gloat, but to be sure she knows their interests and can talk with them about it. They may not be things the kids want to do with her (or she wants to do with them), but they'll want to talk about their days sometimes. This also works in reverse. It may be a while before the two of you are completely comfortable with this, so ease into it.

Hugs to all of you.

I'm nth-ing the lack of advice, but heaping on the whuffles and hugs... ((((richat))))

My folks split up when I was 17. They neglected to tell me. No, really. They told both my older brothers, but both were pretty scared to tell me as I was the sensitive one. I found out while I was going over a college financial aid application form that my dad filled out. Lesson: try to keep the communication open.

I think the biggest thing that was a pain for me was that when I spent time with my dad or spent time with my mom, they wanted to talk about the other and I can understand that - it was something on their mind; it was something that was troublesome. It created a cognitive dissonance in me and it bothered me a lot. They also each tried to play the "tell your mother/father that I said..." game. I was mature enough that I could identify this and tell my parents to please leave the other out of our discussions. This made a huge difference for me. Lessons: your kids aren't therapists. Your kids aren't buddies. Your kids aren't messengers. You may need each one of those things, but your kids aren't the appropriate tool.

I'm so sorry I missed this earlier, richat. I'm thinking of all of you.