I see a female impersonator as an actor in something with a long history. I've never stopped to think about the impersonator's sexual orientation. His picture here.

You touched on it- it has to do with whether or not it's a joke. If you're wearing a dress because wearing a dress makes you feel good, right on. If you're wearing a dress to make fun of women, boo on you. I don't think sexual orientation is directly related, but there does seem to be a general pattern of gay men doing the former and straight men doing the latter.

I think it is the methodology behind it. If a guy is making fun of women, it's kinda mean. If a guy is dressing as a woman, that's his thing.

I like drag queens a lot, so I think I'm biased.

Actually, I'm throwing a sustainability celebration where people in wedding gowns get in free. I'm really hoping to see lots of guys, straight or gay, in gowns. As the point is to showcase reuse as a way to lower carbon footprints, of course I wouldn't be offended when dudes play along. A mix of men and women will just make us that much more press-worthy.

Why is it acceptable (inasmuch as it *is* acceptable) for gay men to dress up as women, while it's offensive buffoonery for straight man to do it?

I don't think it's really a gay/straight thing, I think it's a serious/joke thing, as TPS said.

If you're wearing a dress because wearing a dress makes you feel good, right on. If you're wearing a dress to make fun of women, boo on you.

This is confusing to me in the context of this topic. Since they make a point of saying Allen entered as his drag queen persona, I presume he doesn't wear a dress as part of his day-to-day lifestyle. So rather than doing it because it "feels good", he's doing it because there's some entertainment value in it. That's the same basic reason straight guys dress as women. How do you distinguish between the two situations? It can't be the difference between "serious" and a "joke"--do drag queens count as "serious"? It's not something I'm into, so I don't really know, but it strikes me as having a generous helping of camp to it. Seems like you'd have to go case-by-case.

I think that's the sticking point for me too, mullacc. That, plus a knee-jerk desire to be accepting of alternative sexualities, so I don't want to dismiss the drag queen thing as playing dress up. (But maybe that's what it is. I don't know.)

Since they make a point of saying Allen entered as his drag queen persona, I presume he doesn't wear a dress as part of his day-to-day lifestyle.

Well, I don't wear an evening gown as part of my day-to-day lifestyle, either. And the men I'm around don't wear tuxes (although if I had my way...). There's a certain costume element to formal occasions, we're all sort of in drag at such events, so the idea of someone wanting to dress up across the gender lines doesn't seem so weird.

≡ Click to see image ≡

I don't understand your point, TPS. I don't think it's weird to want to dress up across gender lines. The question is matter of motivation and saying one motive is ethically okay (being a drag queen, which implies some entertainment value I haven't defined) and another motive isn't (a man dressing as a women to "make fun of women").

RuPaul once said "we're born naked. anything else is some form of drag," and sometimes I think he's right. And in New York where people dress in ways that send out massively mixed signals genderwise, you eventually come to the conclusion that sartorially, gender lines are kind of arbitrary.

"Here come Dick, he's wearing a skirt
Here comes Jane, y'know she's sporting a chain
Same hair, revolution
Same build, evolution
Tomorrow who's gonna fuss

And they love each other so
Androgynous
Closer than you know, love each other so
Androgynous"

-The Replacements

(a man dressing as a women to "make fun of women")

Er, I begged the question with my example. What I should said is: a straight guy dressed as a woman in kind of a slapstick manner. Whether or not this is done to "make fun of women" is part of the problem we're discussing, I think.

mullac kind ofraises an interesting a point about the humor of a guy in women's clothes. If say, Ben Roethlisberger posed in a dress for a joke, the humor is not 'hurfdurf women silly,' it's more 'wow, Ben Roethlisberger makes one ridiculous looking woman.' at least, to my eyes.

mudpuppie, if you think, as I do, that the convention of XYZ king and queen are silly and outdated, then why is it bad if a straight guy just busted through the convention and got elected as sort of a protest?

Is there a right of young women to get elected XYZ queen that requires respect and seriousness?

I think the whole thing is cool - and I sort of doubt a straight guy doing it for a lark would have as much chance of winning as this guy.

Which might or might not say something about times and what they are.

I grant you that the two scenarios are diffent, but I don't see one as more or less valid as the other.

Interesting.

Some people like to play dress up, regardless of sexual orientation. Look at all the people into cosplay. A lot of folks wish it were Halloween all year round. Add in the cultural influence of the gay community and drag combines these elements.

There's nothing wrong with straight men doing it; I've seen a few that looked damn good. Most of those qualified as crossdressers - doing it because it feels good/is a turn on, whereas in my experience gay men don't feel turned on when dressed as a woman. They may feel freer to express their feminine side. They're already transgressing mainstream sexuality, why not transgress gender boundaries too?

Also, drag kings are HOT HOT HOT.

Jokes are often based on the intersection of two incongruous things. A male looking guy (stubbly chin, hairy legs, too broad shoulders, too skinny, too tall) in a dress is funny for that reason.
That's why frat boys do it. And I'm sure it was a hoot back in the days in the caves in the Neander valley as well.

Also, drag kings are HOT HOT HOT.

I agree, oddly.

Also, drag kings are HOT HOT HOT.

I agree, oddly.

Thirded, oddly.

There's a bar here in Atlanta that used to be mostly a biker bar, and sometime in the 70s, they started having Halloween parties where all the bikers would show up in dresses, and their girlfriends would show up in tuxedos. This tradition lasted up until the late 90s, when the neighborhood got gentrified and most of the original freaks either died or moved away.

I used to love this because it wasn't drag- it was more like carnival, or masquerade. It was mostly a hetero affair, but it wasn't buffoonery making fun of either gender. It was role-playing, role-switching, fun and (for some) adventure. This bar also had a tradition of dancing on the bar on holidays, and I have several fond memories of watching guys in jeans and chiffon climbing down off the bar, panting for breath, while their tuxedo'd girlfriend held their hand or kept the barstool steady for them to climb down on.

This jogged something in my memory. In the early 70's my parents and other parents in the neighbourhood would leave us young ones in the care of the older kids and head off to the nearby bar after we had finished our Halloween candy forays.

3 or 4 years running my dad went in drag. He was a big ruddy faced Irish Catholic guy who spent his whole life in physical labour in/on trucks, boats, mines and steel mills. More than once he was described as a cross between Johnny Cash and Archie Bunker.

He was a sight in a flowered print dress given to him by Martha's mother (of George and Martha the next door neighbours), high heels, and two cantaloupes stuffed into one of my mom's bras.

They had great fun. I can't believe I had almost forgotten all that.

Man I was gonna post here yesterday, but the internet crashed at work.

Beauty pageants and homecoming pageants require a large amount of performative impersonation, even from women. But I guess that point has already been made.

I've been to a drag show and I used to work with people who were drag queens in their private life. I think the difference between them and a fratboy dressing in drag is that a drag queen looks really, really good* while a fratboy in a dress simply looks stupid/ridiculous.


*i.e., better than most women I knew plus way more put together.

And I think that muddgirl is on to something-a drag queen really is taking the "pageant" girl mentality and going all the way with it. I'd call it an art form.