I'm not sure about the pink underwear... something makes me feel that it's a different message than the real point, which is so fundamental and basic. But, I also believe that I'm probably wrong about that. The whole bra-burning thing in the U.S.? Silly, right? But in terms of a rather outlandish statement that would get lots of attention and make people huff and puff... and then, ultimately create a space where some actual thought and dialogue could transpire - I think it worked (as much as it has worked, so far).

If the over the top things had not been ventured, there wouldn't even be an "issue" to discuss, because it would be too far under the radar for the average citizen to concern themselves with.

Anyway, I have a love-hate relationship with this subject. At my most honest core, without the intellectual dressing, I just feel horrified that so many men hate women so much, and are so sadistic and opportunistic when they feel they can't be hurt themselves. It makes me feel violent.

I don't think it's useful to look at it just as a men-hating-women dynamic. It's just the general authoritarian right wing mentality that's the core issue here. It expresses itself in different ways, attacking different sets of people, this is just one example. (In other words, these guys don't hesitate to hurt men either.) Fuck them.

I don't see the connection between the pink underwear and the bra burning. They're absolutely different reactions. The bra burning was kinda changing the contours of the debate. This is something else where the attackers are the ones outside the contours of normalcy.

If some self-righteous prick went after my mom or imaginary sister like that, for any reason but especially for some cooked-up bullshit like that, I'd go to work on them with a knife until they had no tendons left intact. Kick my mom again, jelly-legs.

Brought to you by the horrible intersection of righteous outrage and a desperate need for a morning cup of coffee.

The "real point" is not so fundamental and basic to them, taz. They see "western behaviour" as a contaminant. It's useless to try to change their minds on that front, as a massive ideological organization. It's easier to try to defang them politically, charge them for their crimes, and shame them by eg. undertaking this approach. So not so much "what's wrong with women drinking at a pub?" (certain people will NEVER appreciate that, and that's okay) and more like "leave these women alone, you goons" (which is a message that can attain universal support.)

In the end these groups are political--it's a bunch of canny people taking advantage of the easily-brainwashed to form a private on-demand fighting force and political block.

Did anybody catch BBC's World Have Your Say yesterday? The whole hour was a discussion of this incident. Gotta drive my fiancee to class now, I'll provide links later.

Here's the comment thread. Prepare to be trolled.

Just a side note on bra burning - it's not something that ever really happened, at least not in anywhere near the way public memory has it.

Disgusting story, and I agree with taz - it just bothers me that some men hate women. Yes, of course it's political and an act of dominance, and yes they may be assholes to men too, but that doesn't make this incident less reflective of desire to dominate women as an entire class of people.

I just feel horrified that so many men hate women so much, and are so sadistic and opportunistic when they feel they can't be hurt themselves. It makes me feel violent.
I don't think this is about men hating women - it's about people unwilling to see that their world-view is not the only one possible. They hate men who don't agree with their views just as much, but they are less likely to physically abuse men, because of the higher risk of having the shit beaten out of them in return. They're just narrow-minded, cowardly arseholes who deserve to be strangled slowly with a pair of pink chaddis (preferably by a woman with a beer in her other hand).

Listening to this story on the radio, I was reminded of an exchange between Richard Dawkins and a fundamentalist Muslim:

Fundamentalist: Without the word of God, your women would be fornicating in the street.

Dawkins: Excuse me? "My" women?

That's right, nobody tells Romana II what to do!

Does it count if I have my drink at the gay bar? Mr. Pie is willing to stay home while I hang out with Woody.