From the CNN.com story:

"Even though we are different people, with different beliefs, different cultures, different languages, we are neighbors and neighbors have to learn to live together," [Dove] Hartuv said.

A-fucking men. The man lives in a kibbutz that's been a target for years and the fact that he's still able to say something like that? Proves that individual people living there want to live in peace, so let's start working on that, please?

just got back from a gaza die-in in front of border's, was very sombr and powerful event.. more and more people are getting angry and standing up to support gaza thank goodness.

I was surprised to see the News of the World devote its front cover to Gaza today. Then I looked closer and realised it was Gazza.

What I hate is that Israel justifies its actions (not only this, but countless other horrors) by saying that it is doing it for the Jewish people. Well, my background is Jewish, and, uh, Israel, you're not acting in my name. No way.

Same shit, different year. This could and probably will go on for another century.

Not to justify or not justify Israel, but Hamas's actions (as reported) seem nuts to me. What the fuck.

Yeah.... you don't tug on Superman's cape, ya know?

The problem is, the whole thing's a lot bigger than Hamas vs. Israel - it's the allegiances and ancient hatreds of the entire Middle East pitted against one another and also against their allies in the west (ie, most of us), and Gaza is where it breaks the surface.

I don't get the Palestine love. Israel is no saint, but I can't see how they could have done anything different here. The options (as far as I can see them) are:

Do nothing. Allow Hamas to continue taking pot shots across the border. Allow a small number of Israelis to get periodically killed. Your peaceniks would push towards this as a solution, but every expert in this area seems to agree that doing nothing will only encourage more action from militant Palestinians towards Israel.

Proportionate response. This is what everyone on the left seems to be asking for, but I don't get it. They kill 5 of yours and you kill 5 of theirs? Not only does this just feel wrong, but it solves nothing. Israeli civilians still get killed.

The current response. There's a danger of engendering more hatred towards Israel & an upsetting number of Palestinian civilians will get killed, but it's the only way (slim as it is) I can see of stopping Hamas targeting and killing Israelis. Also, and it's sad to say this, but the more brutal the response from Israel, then the more determined and serious any diplomatic measures and cease-fire will become.

This is a shit-storm from front to back, and neither Palestine nor Israel have clean hands. The demonstrations (internationally and here in the UK) appear to completely ignore the fact that Hamas and Palestine are not completely innocent.

Also - here in the UK I hear an awful lot of posturing from friends on the left which appears to condemn Israel without considering how to engender peace in this area of the world. I get that you hate Israel, but really - what the hell do you propose is done to stop the needless killings?

I'm a left wing guy with left wing friends, and as proud as I am of those friends, the constant stream of pro-Palestinian / Anti-Israeli stuff which is pushed at and by these people with little or no facility to provide actual facts is stunning. I'm all for backing the underdog, but I really feel that the RESPECT people and the Socialist Worker people need a sanity check here.

And also - I'm sick of being literally scared into not voicing my disquiet about the pro-palestinian stance. Every time I've tried to talk to one of these people about the subject, I've left the conversation feeling that (a) I'm really stupid - maybe too stupid to understand the real facts; (b) I'm obviously a racist who hates Muslims; (c) I'm a bad evil person who doesn't care about children being killed.

The point you are not grasping here, seanyboy, is that Hamas uses magic rockets that will not kill israeli children.

I hear ya, Seany.

I'm with seany here, too. For as long as I can remember that whole region has been nothing but a monumental clusterfuck, where picking a side seems almost pointless.

seanyboy, jonmc, miko etal:

"http://www.ifamericansknew.org/"

The thing is, this isn't about Israel fighting the Palestinians alone, but how a side like Israel can get the right to do this to Palestine without any sort of ramification. Israel is a powerful country--we all know that--which means it should have the sense to use that power more judiciously. If you're going to kill 5 of my people, well then you better be prepared because I'm going to kill 5 of yours. But no--it's more like 500 now, so that you never kill again--which is stupid to expect, if you're going to move into the lands of a people, move them out, and then tell them that you have no right to that land ever again. A land which was there's to start with, where they had lived for ages, and used to begin their lives.

"http://www.globalissues.org/article/119/the-middle-east-conflict-a-brief-background"

So what does Egypt say about all this? I keep reading the papers hoping for them to say something, anything at all, like maybe they'll send aid or anything, but no word from Egypt.

Also, I'm with seanyboy and agreeing at this being a monumental clusterfuck that oh-god-I-wish-it-would-stop already. Humans on both sides living under constant sudden bombings for as long as I have lived is not right and there are clearly no winners.

DId anyone else get text-messages? I got one forwarded, it was in Norweigan and claims to be a forward from a doctor named Mads G (a real Doctor, Mads Gilbert he's now being interviewed in all sorts of Swedish media), that text messages is translated here and reads:

"Thanks for your support.. They bombed the central vegetable market in Gaza city two hours ago. 80 injured, 20 killed. All came here to Shifa. Hades! We wade in death. Blood and amputees. Many children. Pregnant woman. I have never experienced anything this terrible. Now hearing tanks. Tell it, pass it on, shout it. Anything. DO SOMETHING! DO MORE! We're living in the history books now, all of us! Mads G, 3.1.09 13:50, Gaza, Palestine.

hadjiboy, it's not for lack of information about the situation that I feel that way. The problem comes down to this kind of thinking:

If you're going to kill 5 of my people, well then you better be prepared because I'm going to kill 5 of yours.

Basically, we're all "my people," and this bullshit simply has to stop. Hamas' actions are completely beyond the pale, not just to Israelis, but to Palestinian Christians and others as well. Their actions, to my mind, are flatly unacceptable. It is a tragedy that civilians are suffering for it; I'd be in favor of an airlift for anyone who wants. But ultimately, it's up to Gaza Palenstinians to exercise some control over their foreign relations.

Here's a note from the "if americans knew" link:

The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational “terrorists” who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes — on both sides — inevitably follow from this original injustice.

See, I agree with the 'conventional wisdom.' A lot of the world's governments and borders were changed at the end of World War II. A lot of the world's historic populations (most?) have been moved from their land of origin. This is 2008; there's a world to be built. .

2009!

So what does Egypt say about all this?

Just saw this... Egypt to demand Hamas accept immediate truce in Gaza

I realize I sounded obstinately pro-Israel in that previous comment and that's not quite accurate either; they have been boorish in many ways. But I basically approve of the establishment of the state and its continued existence where it is. I do see the claim for Palestine and support a two-state solution. But this method of 'neogtiation' being employed is utterly ignorant and absolutely not morally justified, and Hamas is really a horrifying organization - violent and anti-Semitic, and most definitely terrorist in its tactics.

But Miko, I think it's a mischaracterization to say that the Palistinians are fighting for some intangible "homeland". Like pretty much every struggle, it comes down to water rights.

My personal opinion is that there's no "good guy" in this fight. It saddens me to see that the US is continuing to so obviously manouver for our own "best interests" while ignoring the fact that a neutral peace process has been thoroughly dismantled over the last 8 years.

A good point, but I'd expect water rights to definitely be a part of a two-state solution, wouldn't you?

I agree that the US has fuxxored this and hope for some improvement in the next administration, though it's quite a line to walk.

I didn't see much on ifamericansknew that most americans with valid opinions on the subject regardless of stance don't already generally know. That site, btw, needs an overhaul in the worst way; Propaganda 101 teaches to put your strongest material up front, not bury it encyclopedic fashion. Anyway, among american opinion the facts, history and statistics are rarely in dispute (a rarity in itself except on MeFi, a site which should never be used as a bellweather on opinion), but what roles if any should be played by all nations, individually and collectively.

When I was in elementary school, I was the biggest kid around. There were only a couple other boys I could tumble with at recess with without accidentally making them cry. I had plenty of friends among the little guys, one in particular I walked home with every day. We'd see bigger kids, high school kids, on the way home, and they'd mostly ignore us. In fifth grade my friend started talking shit to these bigger kids because I was there and big and tough and he could hide behind me. Sometimes there would be fights, but mostly I would talk the big kids down. Finally one afternoon I got tired of being used this way and left him to his own devices. He got himself beat up, pretty badly, and his mom called my mom and told her that I was at fault -- I had stopped protecting my belligerent, puny friend. My mom laughed, and the friendship was over. The kid learned his lesson, though.

It was a confusing lesson for me, though. I learned that maybe I shouldn't have stuck up for my friend in the beginning. But what kind of friend would abandon a friend in need? Would I have ever sustained a friendship with this kid if I had made a habit of abandoning him to his devices? Would he have learned his lesson earlier and come around to being a good friend to me, and not just a smartmouth in need of a human shield? I still don't know.

I don't think this is a perfect metaphor at all. But it's what I think of when Hamas lobs rockets at Israel, and when Israel sends warplanes and tanks into Gaza. There are lessons to be learned, but the ones in need of lessons aren't in a learning mode right now. The sides can't really be abandoned to their own devices, either, because most of the damage is collateral.

I think democracy is a problem in this situation. It's just a veneer, or a fig leaf. Elections legitimize Hamas. The fact that Israel is a democracy is touted as the reason for US support. But even if we were a working democracy, and even if Israel and Hamas are elected, elected governments don't really act on behalf of all or even most of their citizens. This is complicated by overlaying secular democracy on a country where citizenship is conferred by religious persuasion. It's complicated by overlaying democracy on a territory where the ruling party is and was, from its inception, a terrorist organization bent on disruption and destruction. It's also complicated by the big guide-dog democracy being moved by money and lobbies, and having just had a junta seize power and bankrupt its moral coffers with an expeditionary holy war itself.

I love Israel. I wake up most mornings and remember the flush of bougainvillea outside my door, my friends and loves. I love the Palestinians with whom I worked, and the pride they took in showing me the village school and electric station and sewers whcih they had built without a shekel from the Israeli state. I love the US, and I know how close Clinton was to brokering peace between Rabin and Arafat, before Rabin was assassinated. I rode the free bus to Jerusalem and walked past his body, lying in state, to pay my respects. I wondered then what would happen next, and figured something like this.

It will get worse, and so many people, on every side, will wonder why, though everyone with whom they speak says they just want the killing to stop, nobody seems to have the guts to walk away. There are hard lessons yet to be taught, but will anyone ever learn? Probably not.

Egypt won't get involved. We should all hope Iran doesn't, either.

Instead of 500, miko, is that what you're saying? Because, the other option, however obtuse it may seem, is better than a whole bunch of people dying for a piece of land. You want it, come up and fight for it: and ruin yourself and the bodies that God and your Parents have given you, and others. God help you.

See, I agree with the 'conventional wisdom.' A lot of the world's governments and borders were changed at the end of World War II. A lot of the world's historic populations (most?) have been moved from their land of origin.

Yes, but how many of them are still stuck in the 20th century, waiting for the promises made to them by all the super-powers which had come before.

Hamas is really a horrifying organization - violent and anti-Semitic, and most definitely terrorist in its tactics.

Agreed. Now, could you... would you, be able to say the same thing about Israel?

No, I wouldn't say the same thing about Israel.

how many of them are still stuck in the 20th century, waiting for the promises made to them by all the super-powers...

It's not a successful strategy.

No, I wouldn't say the same thing about Israel.

You proved my point, and missed it at the same time too.

I think I get your point, I just refuse to engage in the game, and what I said is true - I don't consider Israel "a horrifying organization, violent and anti-Semitic, and definitely terrorist in its tactics." That's now how I consider Israel at all.

Because, the other option, however obtuse it may seem, is better than a whole bunch of people dying for a piece of land.

What are you talking about?

I'm not piling on, I'm asking out of respect. What's the other option? I'm not trying to attack here, just to understand. Maybe you can help me.

and what I said is true - I don't consider Israel "a horrifying organization, violent and anti-Semitic, and definitely terrorist in its tactics." That's now how I consider Israel at all.

May be you should go and live there for awhile. Maybe you should go there as a Palestinian, or better yet--a palestinian who believes in non-violence. I hear its very hard for them to kill you if you're one of those. sick.

Hugh, the other option is not sending in that armada of tanks. You can just have a full ground war, one on one, and at least that way, not so many innocent people, who don't want to be a part of this conflict, can live to see another day.

I'm sure conditions are terrible for everyone who is there no matter their set of beliefs. That seems clear.

You can just have a full ground war, one on one, and at least that way, not so many innocent people, who don't want to be a part of this conflict, can live to see another day.

I've never heard of a ground war that exempted the innocent from pain and loss. I don't think there's ever been one. Besides - aren't tanks a ground offensive? You objected to the tanks. Ground war is in no way better than air war. War's hell. Part of what makes war a powerful strategy is the effect it has on civilians, loath as we have been, throughout history, to admit that.

It's really hard to see a solution and yelling at each other, or trying to cast one another as somehow "sick," isn't going to create one. I know that if some force were lobbing rockets into my neighborhood (in which innocent people also live) I would be very strongly interested in having that end. Violence on both sides needs to end. Who will lead? If Israel leads the way to a cease-fire as you'd seem to wish, what guarantees them safety from thse sorts of attacks?

I guess what it comes down to is that this isn't just about the single lost lives. It's about the entire future of a region and the fragile allegiances lined up over there. It could potentially be about millions, not hundreds, and it's the world's responsibility to take the long view here, as best we can, as we can try to urge with every other global conflict. We have a problem here, and among the obstacles to a solution is passionate side-taking by onlookers who identify with one side or the other for whatever reason.

This is why I normally think that discussions about Israel/Palestine among us peons is totally futile. It's really something for high-level diplomats and those directly engaged to work out. No matter how shallowly or deeply you look into it, the easy message for anyone to give is "you can't possibly understand!" Well, there's no progressing from that. Someone can as easily tell hadjiboy that he can't possibly understand. Someone else will tell that person that he can't possibly understand. The solution will not be one based on individual forms of empathy or understanding - which as we see will probably not be forthcoming as long as it is insisted upon -but on fairness, practicality, and the valuing of international security and human rights above internecine loyalties.

But the problem is that the world "superpowers" aren't willing to step up and "value international security and human rights above internecine loyalties", so where does that leave us? It's important for peons, whatever side of the issue their on, to keep arguing and discussing and hashing stuff out. The alternative is to just stop up our ears and allow vested interests to profit off the suffering of Israelis and Palestines of all faiths.

That's more of an issue within the superpower nations and for their leadership than between random individuals in different nations. What nations are willing to do entirely depends upon what their populations are willing to elect leadership to do.

I actually don't think it's important to argue about this particular issue at our level. There is no effect whatever. I do think peace/friendship promotion efforts are important, because they may bring about change within nations that have the ability to do something about it, but I really don't think these kinds of conversations that we're in right now ultimately have any value at all.

You can just have a full ground war, one on one,

What, like meeting in a field and duelling, one by one? That's not how wars are fought.

The rockets Hamas has been firing into Isreal are meant to provoke a reaction. The hoped-for reaction is for Israel to mount an all-out offensive in Gaza, against Hamas operatives and civilians alike. Because if Israel is seen to be murderous, maybe neighboring states like Egypt or Syria or Iran might join the fight. Hezbollah, too. So the aim of the Hamas rockets is not to destroy Israel, but to spread war throughout the Middle East. That's bad.

The Israeli government is in a pickle. They must respond to rockets being fired into their territory, or a government that will respond will replace them. They will fight to win, and since they have the materiel, personnel, and training to win, they will do all that is necessary to win.

Of course they look bad. It's horrible to make war on civilians, but who do you make war on when it's civilians doing the fighting? The whole point of Hamas' attacks is to get Palestinians killed. It can't possibly be to kill all that many Israelis, because their rockets suck and they know it. But they know they can get Israel to react, and react with excessive force, because that's how you win a military campaign.

So Israel is doing exactly what Hamas wants by invading. Do you honestly think Israel would tie hands behind its back and respond to Hamas rockets with cheap, random rocket strikes of their own? Or that they should?

I don't understand the whole situation. There's more to it than I know. There's more to it than you know, and this pretense that any of us knows enough to condescend to others, or to sneer at others, for what they think about this situation, is ugly and wrong.

There's war in the Middle East, and as usual nobody's right. Sure, civilians want to be left alone, live their lives. Sure, people outside and inside Israel and Gaza want peace, and sure, they don't necessarily know what it's like to be shot at. Sure, blame lies everywhere. There may be no solution at all, but communication is the basis for any attempt.

It starts all over again when people stop listening and start spitting.

Hugh said it better, and said much more, than I did about why low-level contention is so futile. Agree 100%, especially with:

There's more to it than I know. There's more to it than you know, and this pretense that any of us knows enough to condescend to others, or to sneer at others, for what they think about this situation, is ugly and wrong.

miko,I wasn't calling you "sick" in any way: that was for the innocent Palestinians who have to die each day at the hands of all that military, Israeli, power.

I've never heard of a ground war that exempted the innocent from pain and loss. I don't think there's ever been one.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War"

There will always be innocents, but who, and how many are also important.

Besides - aren't tanks a ground offensive? You objected to the tanks. Ground war is in no way better than air war.

"http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/05/civilian-catasrophe-gaza"

War's hell. Part of what makes war a powerful strategy is the effect it has on civilians, loath as we have been, throughout history, to admit that.

Agreed. The only difference is that the Palestinians are facing this war on a deadlier scale, with mounting injuries and severe casualties.

I wish for the cease-fire on both sides to be put into effect, and for all sorts of attacks from Israel and Palestine to be put on a moratorium, and for them to undergo classes in why each of them behave this way. It's going to be tough, sure, (and we may have to undergo a few skirmishes first) but it's worth it--is there any other way?

I know that if some force were lobbing rockets into my neighborhood (in which innocent people also live) I would be very strongly interested in having that end.

Would you also consider innocent people being killed and maimed, and having to live with this on a daily basis. I don't think, or hope, that you'd be interested in hearing that.

Would you also consider innocent people being killed and maimed, and having to live with this on a daily basis

.

Rockets being fired into my neighborhood would be maiming and killing innocent people on a daily basis. I'm not saying I'd be one of the ones agitating for a heavy-handed response; I wasn't one of those after 9-11; but I can't say that I condemn out of hand those who wish for one. I understand something of why they want their leadership to draw a clear, hard line.

I actually don't think it matters who the innocents are. There always are innocents. Their number is always too great. But the actions of political groups, whether they be nations or factions or families, have consequences; that plain fact shouldn't come as a surprise. Whenever cultures clash in war, innocents are hurt - in body, but also psychologically, in lost earnings of relatives or relatives killed and maimed. I've never been one to worry about which war is worse. Once you enter into warlike activity, you have entered hell on earth. You don't have to live long to see that.

Believe me, I'm not saying I have a solution. I'm clearly saying I don't have a solution. But you don't either - I'm not quite sure how the international community would expect to line Arabs and Israelis up and make them go to conflict resolution class together. The issue is too entrenched and complicated for simple solutions.

That's why I no longer spend time talking about this with regular people. At this point, there is a small and specific group of people I'm interested in hearing from on the topic of what should happen in Israel and Palestine - people who have achieved breadth of knowledge and understanding through advanced study into the political, social, and religious history of the region, and experienced diplomats, who understand that no solution will arise without political will, the ability to dcall on proven loyalty, and diplomatic a world community willing to enforce a solution if need be. If we ever arrive at a solution, it will emerge from conversations among people like this, whose knowledge and abilities are far greater than ours. They will need to work with and in the actual communities involved, and change will need to be advantageous to both communities. The need for change will have to be abundantly clear.

The solution will not emerge from conversational websites or from communities under seige, who have more pressing concerns. What we can do as citizens is encourage our leaders to spend more time working with people who can put this longstanding conflict into a perspective and make significant progress toward finding the key to a lasting peace.

It's only them I'm interested in hearing. The rest of us are equivalent to children on a playground arguing about whose daddy is stronger or whose family has it tougher. War totally sucks - people get hurt. I hear it's pretty bad over in Iraq, too.

I actually don't think it matters who the innocents are. There always are innocents. Their number is always too great. But the actions of political groups, whether they be nations or factions or families, have consequences; that plain fact shouldn't come as a surprise.

miko, it's even more hurting when someone who you thought would understand--doesn't.

Hugh, no, I didn't mean fighting in a field and dulling it out; but at least try and not involve the people who live there and wouldn't like to die. I know it's hard, but you've started this campaign, and it's now upto you to see it through.

Your theory about why Hamas wants to attack Israel is very interesting. Do you think you can put the same effort into creating one for the Palestinians?

So now, not only are you blaming this war on the Palestinians; but you're also calling them the murderers of their kin, astagfurallah! It's no wonder that they don't want to live with the Israeli's, if this is the way they think. Palestinian even, men and women, love their kids, and would like nothing more than to see them grow.

So Israel is doing exactly what Hamas wants by invading. Do you honestly think Israel would tie hands behind its back and respond to Hamas rockets with cheap, random rocket strikes of their own? Or that they should?

No, just don't use the tanks, drones, ship and helicopters on the innocent kids, if you can... that would be a huge relief to a lot of people who are suffering now.

I don't understand the whole situation. There's more to it than I know. There's more to it than you know, and this pretense that any of us knows enough to condescend to others, or to sneer at others, for what they think about this situation, is ugly and wrong.

I happen to live in a country which is very poor. And the one thing I know is that people who do not have a voice of their own, to speak-up for themselves, are very easily taken advantage of, and there is very little they can do about it.

There's war in the Middle East, and as usual nobody's right. Sure, civilians want to be left alone, live their lives. Sure, people outside and inside Israel and Gaza want peace, and sure, they don't necessarily know what it's like to be shot at. Sure, blame lies everywhere. There may be no solution at all, but communication is the basis for any attempt.

Communication--yes. Starting with the truth about this whole episode. How it started? How Israel came into being? All the history that has been involved--set up a commission, with people who can do the job right, and then go from there.

Do you think the job of setting up Israel was done wrong? What would you do differently?

I don't think Hugh is Israeli, hadjiboy, and your eagerness to line people up on sides is one of the things that makes me nervous.

It's no wonder that they don't want to live with the Israeli's, if this is the way they think. Palestinian even, men and women, love their kids, and would like nothing more than to see them grow.

So do everyone's children, Israelis included, who all have an equal right to exist. Or don't they?

Also -

Do you think you can put the same effort into creating one for the Palestinians?

I thought that was one for the Palestinians.

Yes, an increasingly vanishing one with no access to agricultural land or water rights. But again, none of this is important, to either you or me. Unimportant to me, because the causes of struggle are inherently meaningless when mediating one. If anyone were actually interested in mediation.

I understand something of why they want their leadership to draw a clear, hard line.

Now if you can only define that line, and make sure that the others that are using it, stick to it--then we would be fine. Because 44 deaths for one being killed is not right.

I actually don't think it matters who the innocents are.

See this is where you make the mistake. It does matter--to the people who are undergoing the trauma--and right now, they're Palestinians and Israelis (many more Palestinian than Israeli--but that's for another day).

I'm clearly saying I don't have a solution. But you don't eithe

All I'm saying is to stop the war first--that's a solution--then comes everything else... we have to start from somewhere!

That's why I no longer spend time talking about this with regular people.

I used to be the same way as you. Hell, I was like you... it's not my problem--don't bother. There are other folk you know who can take care of it better than you... but all that changed when I hit that car, and when I got my memory back. Now I want to fight for these folks who I had been avoiding.

The solution will not emerge from conversational websites or from communities under seige, who have more pressing concerns.

But maybe I can tell you something which might change your mind. Or make you ponder on the topic we were talking about which could help you come to a decision. And maybe you can pass it on and from there it will go... who knows.

The rest of us are equivalent to children on a playground arguing about whose daddy is stronger or whose family has it tougher.

Don't sell kids so short; sometimes they can have the most amazing thoughts that none of us would have even dreamt of...

I actually don't think it matters who the innocents are.

You're wrong here you see. It does matter who the innocents are if you're trying to show the casualty that the other side has given it. And by neglecting it you're only throwing fire into an open wound. But you don't want to discuss this topic with me, so fine--we'll leave it at that.

Hadjiboy, you're making a few mistakes.

I did not describe the aims of Palestinians, but of Hamas. You conflate the two, and in doing so put words in my mouth that were not there.

Do you think you can put the same effort into creating one for the Palestinians?

I think by this you mean that I'm justifying Israeli actions by describing Hamas' aims, but not attempting to justify Hamas' actions with an open mind. My answer is no, I am trying to interpret the whole situation as best I can, and to understand why Hamas would do something as foolhardy and with such an obvious result as lobbing rockets into Israel during a cease-fire. You want justification for Hamas' stupidity? Supply it yourself.

So now, not only are you blaming this war on the Palestinians; but you're also calling them the murderers of their kin, astagfurallah!

Yeah, I am calling Hamas murderers of the civilian Palestinian populace. I see a difference between the two, and I think the Hamas rockets are an act of cynicism, one that uses the Gazan citizenry as a sacrificial lamb. I think it's disgusting and should be condemned, but I'm not going to demand that you condemn it.

I happen to live in a country which is very poor. And the one thing I know is that people who do not have a voice of their own, to speak-up for themselves, are very easily taken advantage of, and there is very little they can do about it.

So what? Do you launch rockets indiscriminately into your neighbors' house?

I know it's hard, but you've started this campaign, and it's now upto you to see it through.

It's simple: watch your fucking pronouns or lose a friend. I didn't start anything.

I thought that was one for the Palestinians.

No, it's Israeli, see...

The rockets Hamas has been firing into Isreal are meant to provoke a reaction. The hoped-for reaction is for Israel to mount an all-out offensive in Gaza, against Hamas operatives and civilians alike. Because if Israel is seen to be murderous, maybe neighboring states like Egypt or Syria or Iran might join the fight. Hezbollah, too. So the aim of the Hamas rockets is not to destroy Israel, but to spread war throughout the Middle East. That's bad.

It's bad because it will cause an all out war in the region, and the world perhaps (which the Arabs, and Palestinians, will lose).

Do you think the job of setting up Israel was done wrong? What would you do differently?

I would have not thrown out the Palestinians, but embraced them as the brothers they were, and offered them my full support to survive.

I don't think Hugh is Israeli, hadjiboy, and your eagerness to line people up on sides is one of the things that makes me nervous.

Hugh has been nothing but supportive of me, through this accident, and I consider him to be nothing but a brother, and if he feels like he's been lined up--then I apologize--sincerely.

So do everyone's children, Israelis included, who all have an equal right to exist. Or don't they?

Of course they do, which is why the Gaza excursion has solely been implored under Palestinian civilians--you know--the ones on the news they keep on showing.

Hey man, sorry about that last line, hadjiboy. I got kinda upset cuz I felt like you were pushing me around for no good reason, and well, I don't have much more explanation than that. I lost my temper a bit there. Sorry. I mean well. And I wish you the best, bro. Forgive me.

It's bad because it will cause an all out war in the region, and the world perhaps (which the Arabs, and Palestinians, will lose).

Really, hadjiboy, everyone loses in a war of that sort. Too many nukes involved for anyone to come out unscathed.

It's funny, I went to a Quaker college, where I was a bad student, so I came out of it with an urge for lovingkindness but I still kept my bad temper. I think everyone's got that of God in 'em but that doesn't mean I don't sometimes want to punch God's lights out, and everyone along with Him. Bad student, see?

I went to Israel to become Jewish, but was a pretty bad student there, too, and since conversion in Israel is about becoming Israeli (and a soldier) and I was more about fucking than fighting, I left having learned little about myself.

I hate violence and the death of children as much as anyone, and I'd bet that even Israeli tank commanders feel the same way. It's a maelstrom that's been dragging lives to the depths for a very long time, for so long that the source doesn't matter. It's also something that's hard to think or talk about without getting angry, no matter who you are or what your story is.

Again, sorry for that last bit. I'm still your friend if you'll have me. Pardon my temper. I'm a bad student.

Whoop's--lose a friend, aye--haha, and it's 4:02 in the morning here and I can't go to sleep.

When you mentioned Hamas in your post I assumed it to be Palestinian, seeing the name almost the whole day. My fault--I apologize.

You want justification for Hamas' stupidity? Supply it yourself.

I think Hamas was just being Hamas, and they expected the same thing from Israel--but nooooooo, we've got world war three going on over there--and it looks like Gaza is going to lose a lot of its Palestinian population.

I think it's disgusting and should be condemned, but I'm not going to demand that you condemn it.

Using citizens to achieve your aim is not Islam, and anyone who does it, or preaches it, is not Muslim. So you're right in calling Hamas on that point--but what about the Israelis who know there are children in the buildings which they do not have to fire--why are they firing on those!

So what? Do you launch rockets indiscriminately into your neighbors' house?

No, but if I were living next to such a man, I would make sure that he knew what he was doing was wrong. But such sort of things don't work with such people, so I would just make sure that the people he hired knew about his shenanigans.

It's simple: watch your fucking pronouns or lose a friend. I didn't start anything.

And I never said you did :) friend.

See, miko, conversations can be good. Before, I was afraid to go to Israel, seeing all the death and chaos there--but now, I wanna' go--knowing that there will be a guy like Hugh Janus there, who'll be totally into girls, and what a fun time we'll have.

People, especially military people, are trained to move forward constantly, push, push, push. Especially in combat situations, which is the central mindset of the Israeli military. There is no backing up. This is also true in revolutionary and militant organizations. Always escalate, do not back up. Backing up is backing down.

So nobody knows how to disengage. Backing up creates a vacuum, which must be filled, presumably by the side that isn't backing up. It happens in conversations, too, for what it's worth. Always advance the cause, never retreat.

Cease-fires are seen by both sides as opportunities to re-tool, reinforce, and re-arm. They aren't moments of pause, to re-assess goals. It is very hard to talk over the din of a tank engine, even when it's idling.

I don't like to justify violence, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why people resort to violence. I have been a guest in Palestinian homes where photos of the father and his brothers holding rifles and shaking hands with Arafat were on the walls; schoolteachers would tell me about Israeli efforts to prevent Palestinian school districts from establishment. A generation of kids in Gaza goes to Hamas schools and learns to hate as they learn to read. I understand this and I understand why Hamas would teach such things, but I don't support it.

It's fucked up. I believe in eternal hope; at the same time I believe in base cynicism. That is to say I believe they both exist, and that we are all prone to both in equal measures. I believe most of us are of a mindset that cannot retreat without shame, and that will be our undoing.

Islam means surrender. Maybe that's retreat without shame. It's beautiful, like truth. But it may take leaders who are somehow more than human to give and take the space they need and the time they need to dismantle these old hatreds. I wish what I said was truer, or more understandable, or stood a chance of being applied in this world. With every push, we all lose a little more.

I was like you... it's not my problem--don't bother.

I didn't say that. Actually, I'm pretty sure it is my problem - but I'm equally sure that I, alone, don't have what it takes to solve it, and no amount of snarking, shaming, or shouting at others is going to bring it to me.

It seems to me that one of the most deplorable issues connected with the Middle East conflict is this one of identification. Seanyboy initially brought it up: lefties often identify with the underdog, and view the struggle of poor and small against big and rich as a moral struggle in which the poor and small are always right. Which is a pretty good approach, except that sometimes the poor and small are exactly wrong.

All sides in the Middle East conflicts ask - no, demand - that we identify with them. You are asking me to identify with poor Palestinians caught in the middle of this struggle. And I do. But to do so, you are also asking me to vilify and demonify the other actors in the drama, disregarding the fact that Palestinians have also had a lengthy role in bringing us to this point in the drama. And that I cannot do.

This discussion becomes heated and emotional because of people's identifications. There are calls from all sides to identify with one or the other combatant: Identify with people who share your religion. Identify with the ones who share your cultural background. Identify with the ones who share your class status. Identify with the peaceable. Identify with the assertive. Identify with the children. Identify with the elders, they've lived a long time and know what's what.

This identity game is the trap. There is not a single party in this drama free from sin, and by sin I mean being crappy to other human beings. To identify with any point of view in this drama is to make a mistake. It's like when there's a dysfunctional family who has violent arguments. When I, the outsider, identify with the wife (say) , I can add my voice to her shouting and justify and support her even when she is making false accusations and drinking too much and refusing to see her contributions to the problem. When I identify with the husband, I can tell him he needs to take everything from her and leave her, or tell him he needs to take a firmer hand, or justify and support him even as he becomes abusive and tyrannical. But in niether case do I really know what they need; it's not my relationship. No matter which of the two I identify with, I am not moving them toward a solution. I'm getting in the middle, adding another strident voice, enlisting more angry people, and generally flaming it up.

What is required in a dysfunctional relationship is, to me, exactly what is required in seeking a solution in Israel: detachment. As long as we are choosing one party to identify with and argue for, we are in the trap and we are helping to continue the conflict. As long as you want me to be bad guy so you can be good guy, we are continue the conflict. As long as we weigh the relative worth of lives lost and esteem some more to be mourned than others, we are continuing the conflict. As long as we insist that you just don't understand we are continuing the conflict. As long as we imagine that one population of human beings is actually morally superior to another, we are continuing the conflict.

How do we get to detachment? Well, certainly, I totally agree that there should be an immediate cease-fire and the beginning of negotiations, and forgive me if somehow I gave the indication that I think there shouldn't. But beyond that, neither you nor I can provide the platform for the discussion that needs to take place in order to settle these ancient disagreements.

As the world community, we can insist that both entities follow the UN-sanctioned Road Map, or adapt the specifics of the plan in mutually agreeable ways. Non-violence and recognition of Israel are two of the central conditions. How is the world community to be helpful by further emotionalizing partisan groups within the struggle? My attitude is not "doesn't bother me," but an emotional detachment from calls or claims that I automatically belong on one side or another. This is a problem whose solution lies in intellect and in muscle, but not in heart. The more the heart stays out of it, the better off we'll all be, because there's too much hatred and raw pain for people directly involved to think properly about this situation. So I am not "throwing fire on an open wound," I am suggesting that the cooling salve of detached and independent rational negotiation will help far more.

I would have not thrown out the Palestinians, but embraced them as the brothers they were, and offered them my full support to survive.

You might have, but in history, the Palestinians didn't wish to live as brothers with Israelis. They actively imposed Israeli immigration under British rule and staged a rebellion. They didn't want Jews living among them. There was no opportunity for such a peaceful solution because Palestinians made it clear, by active violence against settling Jews, that they weren't wanted. And as soon as the state of Israel was declared, they made war on it.

The British definitely fuxxored the entire region badly after WWI, but the dapper guys in the moustaches and pith helmets aren't coming back to sort it out and fix it for everyone. They're no longer in charge. The final choice of whether we have peace in the middle east in our lifetimes is not theirs, or the people who lived in 1948, or the people who lived in 1967, or 1982. Those options are closed and those people are long gone. We have today's world. We've inherited conflicts, hatreds, and clannish identities. We can cling to them and keep the same world, or we can take a step back, survey the mess, and maintain a level head as we look for both accountability and stability, and increased security with continued existence, for both groups residing in the Holy Land. We can - we should - do that without insisting that we descend into a personalization of the conflict.

Before, I was afraid to go to Israel, seeing all the death and chaos there--but now, I wanna' go--knowing that there will be a guy like Hugh Janus there, who'll be totally into girls, and what a fun time we'll have.

Um. Sure. Didn't you know that there were great people in Israel? Hadn't you thought about how a place built as a dream and populated by dreamers from all over the world, a place sacred to at least five (I think) of the world's major religions, and containing a polyglot, creative, bold, diverse, and energetic populace motivated to live by things other than earthly wealth might be nice? Because there are bad things to be said about Israel, but perhaps you don't hear enough of the good ones, either.

They actively imposed Israeli immigration

Durr. Opposed, actively opposed, in the 30s and 40s I mean. It's like my typing fingers have a cold too.