MetaChat - Girls, I need tact.

Phrasing it like "that makes me uncomfortable" is a pretty good red-flag word in corporate environments. Uncomfortable == possible future harrassment complaint, but it's a soft, non-accusatory word on its surface. I'm assuming you're working for a large enough company that they'd have training or materials about harrassment and unprofessional behavior, though. With a smaller company, you'd have to use more forceful language, which is tricky with a superior.

posted by middleclasstool 23 October | 15:05

More info is needed- in what context is he addressing you as "girls"? Are there other people there, or is it just the two of you and him?

Regardless of setting, I think that just firing back a joke about how he's a little boy if you're "girls" might put an end to it.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 23 October | 15:09

Every time he calls you "girl," you call him "boy." It'll become clear to him right fast.

posted by mudpuppie 23 October | 15:09

It's a large company for sure, and multinational, but it's also in a pretty "hip" industry (video games) and the atmosphere is very young and the workplace is casual.

posted by loiseau 23 October | 15:10

It's like he'll write an email to me and the other writer and use the salutation "Girls", or call us over to his desk by that.

posted by loiseau 23 October | 15:11

Every time he calls you "girl," you call him "boy." It'll become clear to him right fast.

I was about to do this and then I got a sudden fear that it might come off as flirtatious.

DOUBLE STANDARDS ARGH

posted by loiseau 23 October | 15:12

I heard a comic once say that if you want to be creepy, just as "ladies" after every statement. . .

posted by danf 23 October | 15:15

I was about to do this and then I got a sudden fear that it might come off as flirtatious.

Yup. Would it work if you stated it, though? As in:

"Girls?!" Does that mean I should be calling you "Boy" from now on?

posted by small_ruminant 23 October | 15:16

What sucks is there is always some lady who likes being called "girls."

Next time he does it, i'd just say, "Even "ladies" would be better, and that's not saying much."
Comrades? Cohorts? Chickypoos?

Danf, it's true.

posted by ethylene 23 October | 15:18

I was about to do this and then I got a sudden fear that it might come off as flirtatious.

This is very much a risk, unless you're willing to muster an unquestionably sarcastic/withering tone when you utter the word. If you say it innocently, he might be stupid enough to think you're playing along with him or, worse, interested.

On preview, small_ruminant has a good variation too.

posted by middleclasstool 23 October | 15:18

yeah, that even reads a little weird/condescending to me, and I tend to respond to "yo, chick" and call pretty much everyone "dude", even my best girlfriend.

I say be polite but firm and direct: "hey, I don't know if you realise this? but using that word in that context/tone/way comes off a little condescending to [me/us]. I'm trying not to be offended or overly-sensitive here, but would you mind not referring to us as "girls"? Thanks!

Just be nice, but don't compromise. And don't be passive-aggressive. Sometimes it's quite okay to be (gently) confrontational. Yes, using "boy" or "boys" could be viewed as 1) hostile or 2) flirtatious or 3) *shrug*

My guess is that he's just tone-deaf and doesn't get how this sounds. I know (and work around) a number of geeky types like this.

posted by lonefrontranger 23 October | 15:18

Phrasing it like "that makes me uncomfortable" is a pretty good red-flag word in corporate environments. Uncomfortable == possible future harrassment complaint, but it's a soft, non-accusatory word on its surface.

I've never met any of the parties in person but something makes me think that this guy might not be a ball of fire in the picking-up-subtle-hints department.

posted by jason's_planet 23 October | 15:20

Not being much of a flirt, I never considered the risk of coming off as flirtatious. I like what s_r said.

posted by mudpuppie 23 October | 15:22

I say be polite but firm and direct: "hey, I don't know if you realise this? but using that word in that context/tone/way comes off a little condescending to [me/us]. I'm trying not to be offended or overly-sensitive here, but would you mind not referring to us as "girls"? Thanks!

I think that's saying too much, plus I think the language is way too weak. There's no need to use apologetic langauge (I don't know if you realize this, I'm trying not to be offended, would you mind), your request isn't out of line, just keep it short and simple.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 23 October | 15:29

No advice (I would probably say, "I feel uncomfortable when you call me and my coworkers "Girls"), but I just realized I've never been in an office environment where someone could conceivably refer to a group of my coworkers as "Girls". In college, our very polite british professor would say, "Good morning, gentlemen... and ladies". A manager in the petroleum industry addresses his emails with, "Gents", even when they're sent to me.

posted by muddgirl 23 October | 15:32

How does the other writer feel?

I think I've been collectively addressed in a group of "girls" but not constantly in a work situation. (silly data point - in my all girls high school, we all said, "hey, guys, listen!" Drove the male teachers nuts)

Maybe just, "Hey, [insert name], I'm a little tired of us being called "girls". I know you don't mean anything by it, but I just want to be called something else.

"I know you've used it for us before, but it's kind of grating on me/us. Could you just say "ladies", or our names?"

posted by lysdexic 23 October | 15:33

That is very good advice you have given her, ladies.

(behold my success)

posted by danf 23 October | 15:38

Yeah, why beat around the bush? He is younger than you and a colleague, calling you a girl is inappropriate (my grandma called everyone 'lassie' and it was okay, but everyone was younger than she).

You say he's your superior, but what sort of environment is it that he needs to call you by a collective noun such as that? Are you the 'girls' of the typing or steno pool? If not, and if he needs to refer to your department (you and your colleague) by its name, he should do so. So use that as your argument - "[dude], 'girls' is a bit inappropriate. Call us by '[marketing or whatever]' when you need to refer to [me and colleague collectively], oherwise we have names!". I would probably also say "I'm long past being a girl" but I don't know if that would be comfortable for you.

posted by goo 23 October | 15:46

Hit and draw out the l in Llllladies.
We love that.
And white belts that match your shoes.

posted by ethylene 23 October | 15:50

Even "ladies" would be better.

You're opening yourself up to numerous Jerry Lewis/Beastie Boys impersonations.

posted by sexymofo 23 October | 15:50

The environment is kind of hard to explain -- he's like an editor and we're writers, so he gives us editorial direction, so he emails to say "this is what we need to work on today"-type things.

Anyway, I did it. I sounded a lot like lonefrontranger, quite apologetic, because, well, I've got that girl disease of always sounding like my needs are a big imposition on others... but ANYWAY, I just DID it however because I knew it was never going to come out perfectly anyway, because I was so weirded out by having to address it.

The funny thing is, even when I'm sounding all pussyish and non-confrontational and apologetic, I don't *genuinely* feel bad for saying so -- it's just a deflection of what I fear people will think or say in return. FUCKED UP.

But, he received it okay (better than I delivered it) so I just said, awesome, cool, good, and I never want to speak of it with him again.

posted by loiseau 23 October | 15:56

I'll have a 12oz double latte, skim milk, llllladies.

posted by danf 23 October | 15:56

PS. Thanks for not telling me I'm a feminazi or something... I'm not sure how well this would have gone over at that big green site.

posted by loiseau 23 October | 15:57

I'll have a 12oz double latte, skim milk, llllladies.

Yep. Sounds dirty.

posted by ethylene 23 October | 16:01

I think that's saying too much, plus I think the language is way too weak. There's no need to use apologetic langauge (I don't know if you realize this, I'm trying not to be offended, would you mind), your request isn't out of line, just keep it short and simple.

Ideally, TPS, I agree with you. Realistically things aren't always that simple. It depends on the roles of each party as well.

Fifteen years ago I'd have framed it exactly as you say. Time, age and experience (and getting smacked down/fired from jobs for being "too direct") have taught me that, while it sucks (I don't say it doesn't), I sadly have to play the "apologetic" role a bit and be a wussy-girl or risk getting branded with the B word and thought hypersensitive or unfriendly.

There it is, the 800 ton elephant in the feminist room. I hate double standards, too.

posted by lonefrontranger 23 October | 16:06

Yay, loiseau! Now you have to be consistent - if it happens again you need to call him on it, and every time after that, until he gets that it's not okay.

posted by goo 23 October | 16:09

Haha feminazi.

Oh god, I just realized that I sometimes call a group of my friends/coworkers "boys", like when I walk into a room I'll say, "Howdie, boys". They probably secretly hate it and want me to stop but are too passive to say anything.

posted by muddgirl 23 October | 16:11

If you do this, you are (in my opinion) obligated to give the guy a suggestion to use its place. I would just about guarantee you that he's used to addressing any bunch of people as 'you guys', that he feels weird using 'guys' when addressing a female group, and like many people in the same position he's stymied by the English language's lack of an analagous informal collective word that can be used in this situation.

Every time he calls you "girl," you call him "boy." It'll become clear to him right fast.

I do think there's a difference between using the singular form, one-to-one, and the plural form to address a group. 'Girl' or 'boy', one to one, is definitely belittling. Come into a room full of guys and say "Hey, what are you boys up to?" - I don't think any of 'em would think twice about it.

They probably secretly hate it and want me to stop but are too passive to say anything.

On preview - no, probably not.

posted by Wolfdog 23 October | 16:12

I sadly have to play the "apologetic" role a bit and be a wussy-girl or risk getting branded with the B word and thought hypersensitive or unfriendly.

I think that's where having a sense of humor about the confrontation can come in- you don't have to be a bitch, but at the same time you don't have to play the damsel-in-distress. It's a good middle ground.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 23 October | 16:18

I do think there's a difference between using the singular form, one-to-one, and the plural form to address a group. 'Girl' or 'boy', one to one, is definitely belittling. Come into a room full of guys and say "Hey, what are you boys up to?" - I don't think any of 'em would think twice about it.

I think you're right, Wolfdog. I think, though, that the problem lies in the fact that being addressed as "girls" is part of a larger, historically fraught issue, and being called "boys" isn't quite equivalent.

posted by mudpuppie 23 October | 16:20

being called "boys" isn't quite equivalent.

Depending on the situation. It can be demeaning or flirtatious.
"Hello, boys."
Some women like being called girls, so it gets perpetuated for different reasons. For some guys, it's safer, because some women are more offended by the presumption of age, or "the Ma'aming."

posted by ethylene 23 October | 16:25

Oh, agreed,mudpup! I get that, and I didn't mean to imply equivalence for the plural forms; quite the opposite. Just it leaves us with a linguistic gap that nobody really knows how to fill. So by all means let the guy know how you feel - if he's a decent guy at all, I'm sure he might be a little embarassed but probably happy to oblige - just don't leave him wondering what he's supposed to do instead, because that can really cause ill will.

posted by Wolfdog 23 October | 16:25

It also strikes me as much weirder for him to call y'all "girls" in writing than in casual conversation. It seems more condescending, somehow. I can't quite put my finger on why.

posted by mudpuppie 23 October | 16:26

Just it leaves us with a linguistic gap that nobody really knows how to fill.

True enough! It's also problematic because it's such a personal preference. I personally hate being lumped in with "ladies." It's generational, too. Older women don't seem to mind "ladies" so much. In fact, I think to them it simply sounds polite.

or some guys, it's safer, because some women are more offended by the presumption of age, or "the Ma'aming."

Yeah, another personal-preference minefield. I much prefer "ma'am" to "miss," but "miss" is all I ever hear because I don't look my age.

posted by mudpuppie 23 October | 16:30

i don't mind what's said if i don't have to worry how it's said. As long as people speak up when bothered, i think we'll be okay.
i still find ma'aming a novelty and hard not to point out. i like it when it's kids trying to be respectful.

posted by ethylene 23 October | 16:35

I'd say something like "Did you really just call us girls?" with a smile and an incredulous look that says tsk tsk. "Nuh UH!" (Oh no you di'int!) And then follow it up with something like "Oh, Mister, that's a bad choice of words."

And then if he acts befuddled, you can continue with something like "No, seriously, when you call a group of grown up women "girls" it really rubs the wrong way."

(This is why I like "y'all")

posted by Stewriffic 23 October | 17:05

I heard a comic once say that if you want to be creepy, just as "ladies" after every statement. . .

You're thinking of Demetri Martin (aka the most adorablest stand up comic eveeerrr). Listen around 4:05. The rest of it is hilarious. The graphics, not so much.

posted by kkokkodalk 23 October | 19:03

Refer to him as little boy, mister, junior, or jackass. Or just say, "Stop calling us girls, little man."

posted by fluffy battle kitten 23 October | 21:01

Every time he calls you "girl," you call him "boy." It'll become clear to him right fast.

pup's right. I've never met a straight guy who likes being called 'boy' in a business situation.

posted by jonmc 23 October | 21:27

Just tell him you don't like being called "girl".

Direct - to the point - If he's bothered about these things, he'll stop doing it. If he's not bothered, then he's not worth wasting thinking time over.

posted by seanyboy 24 October | 09:37

I really feel strongly that you shouldn't give in to the people who are encouraging you to belittle him to try to teach him a lesson. On the one hand you can say something simple like "Hey, 'you girls' is kinda 50s, you know? We'd rather you say ______", and I'll buy you a [favorite beverage] if he doesn't say, more or less, "Oh! OK. Sorry."

Or, on the other hand, you can try to embarass him and belittle him for a mistake he probably isn't aware he's making and moreover won't know how to fix unless you tell him (because the correct way to fill in the blank depends on your cultural background, personal preferences and expectations).

Somebody tell me why you'd actually opt for the second one.

posted by Wolfdog 24 October | 10:05

s_r's progression of smackdown-worthiness:

If the guy is just clueless and an idiot, Wolfdog is totally right.

If, as I suspect, he thinks "girls" is some kind of retro, 1950s cool, a gentle smackdown isn't out of order.

If he were an older guy, which he isn't, he'd know better and then it'd be worth a confrontation.

posted by small_ruminant 24 October | 11:41

That's a pretty harsh trichotomy: He's either an idiot, a poser, or a geezer?

posted by Wolfdog 24 October | 13:32

Yes.

posted by small_ruminant 24 October | 14:41

Sounds to me more like he's just a bit clueless. Is there any reason not to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and just let him know you don't like that and/or that it's not really a cool way to address women? if that doesn't work, escalate it with him, but treat him with the respect that you are claiming for yourself first.

Some of us guys are not so good at taking hints or reading signals, you see. Women often fail to understand that, in my experience.

posted by dg 24 October | 16:57

GAHHHHH!

posted by Specklet 24 October | 18:13

Keh?

posted by dg 25 October | 07:55

Incidentally, I told my female coworker that I brought this up with him, and she was pleased -- she said she noticed it right away when she saw him say it, too. So we are on the same page.

posted by loiseau 26 October | 19:46

23 October 2008