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The judge I clerked for was constantly annoyed by people saying she reminded them of Judge Judy. I know why she was annoyed by it, but really, she was whip-smart and completely immune to bullshit and had no patience with people making excuses to her or themselves. In the time I clerked for her, she made two attorneys cry.
She was totally awesome, and leaving her courtroom was the saddest thing I've done in my career.
I love her too, but can I go a bit against the grain and suggest that such shows are part of the problem? not part of the problem as bad as, say Nance Grace is, Grace is a cancer on justice and Judy is just a headache; but turning the law into entertainment -- because that's what she does, it's not exactly an educational tool -- is to me very, very dangerous.
having said this, I'm two-strike you're out with spousal abuse, with mandatory sentencing of Draconian proportions. therapy, yes, but in jail.
And that guy just *looks* like a skeezy wife beater.
Care to elucidate the details of your stereotype? All guys that wear red shirts look like skeezy wife beaters? All guys with goatees and short hair? How about just all guys, period?
This is good, but I can't jump on the love train. Most of the time I can't stand her even when I agree with her. It probably dates back to an interview with her I read something like 15 years ago when she advocated a novel solution to the drug problem: hand out dirty needles to addicts.
Care to elucidate the details of your stereotype? All guys that wear red shirts look like skeezy wife beaters? All guys with goatees and short hair? How about just all guys, period?
Oh jesus, dano, take off your "must stand up for men" superhero outfit for a minute.
I said the guy looks skeezy. It's not his shirt. It's not his haircut. I didn't make a generalization about all men. I didn't make a generalization about hairstyles or goatees. I didn't say all men were wife beaters. I said that guy, he looked skeezy to me.
What game am I playing? If you don't feel the need to respond, then don't do so. But it's pretty shitty to twice ignore my point while simultaneously accusing me of not posting in good faith.
Well, now I had to watch the clip... Actually, I saw this before. I remember that case. Yeah, dano, I'm not sure that fine specimen of manhood is your ideal test case for repudiating the "skeeze-factor."
What game am I playing? If you don't feel the need to respond, then don't do so. But it's pretty shitty to twice ignore my point while simultaneously accusing me of not posting in good faith.
Dano, "skeevy" is an ineffable quality that we women can perceive if we pay attention. It's a spidey sense that helps keep us safe.
Regardless of the ineffability of male skeeze, it's the *looks* like a wife beater part that I have a problem with. Something about the way he *looks* makes him a violent abusive person. Ok. What? Young,? White? Dimwitted? It's something secret apparently.
Would it be cool if I called the wife's "mannerisms" those of a vindictive skank?
I said the guy looks skeezy. It's not his shirt. It's not his haircut. I didn't make a generalization about all men. I didn't make a generalization about hairstyles or goatees. I didn't say all men were wife beaters. I said that guy, he looked skeezy to me.
Yup, clearly scumbag material. I'm the first to step up and get annoyed about people using stereotypes to lump men together, but that guy looks like a wife-beater to me. Given that he will have cleaned himself up for court, I still have no hesitation in not trusting him. Before I even saw the clip, I pretty much knew what he was going to look like.
Before I even saw the clip, I pretty much knew what he was going to look like.
Again, completely vague. Can you name a specific trait that makes him look like a wife beater? Because I'm betting, whatever it is, most men who share it are good people.
Also, for the record, I've been very reluctant to don my "must stand up for men" outfit at MetaChat for the last couple of years now. I pick my battles pretty judiciously and resent mudpuppie's accusations otherwise. I would ask people to check my posting history before taking her word for it.
And that's from knowing violent men with eyes too close together and mealy mustache, and sad, defeated mothers.
Much like how when i say redneck, i'm referring to actual people i know and not sweeping generalizations of strangers. The guy down the street drunken and cleaning his gun while spitting out racial slurs is also self identified. Also, almost definitely not a voter.
Stop looking for a fight!? My original comment was very mild snark to something I found offensive. mudpuppie replied with a bunch of jesus fucking fuck and personal attacks and somehow I'm looking for a fight? That's certifiable, eth.
Sure, whatever. i just wandered in but the whole What the fuck does that mean? attitude diminishes your argument as looking for an argument, and pretty much demeans anyone with a valid point to raise.
i can't figure out if you're serious yet or working out personal problems.
Yeah, I lost it there. I didn't just wander in, though, and I've been more than my share of composed for the previous 18 hours. Sorry I didn't grasp that you meant "it wasn't the most eloquent expression" from "I know why you're after mudpuppie".
yes, matteo, you've got a good point--and I think it may have been another aspect of what annoyed "my" judge about the comparison. She was one of the best lawyers I have ever known, as well as someone truly disturbed when the judicial system was used for petty disputes or had to be invoked because people were behaving like sulky children or because they could not be made to clean up their own messes otherwise. And although Judge Judy takes that same position, she does it as theatre, which only encourages people to make a game out of it.
But you know, it's not just law / the legal system as entertainment (or as whatever that bloodsport hateful thing Nancy Grace makes it into can rightly be called) that is the problem; it's also the idea that "you should sue" or "can I sue someone?" is so many people's first thought for resolution of every problem *and* first thought when they suffer annoyance, inconvenience, or even random loss.
Ask anyone you know who litigates in the US civil courts, particularly at the small-potatoes level, and they will tell you that the system is going to do everything possible to force them to come to their own resolution and get the hell out of the courtroom. That is a seriously unpleasant process and one which costs everyone but the lawyers lots more time and lots more money than nearly every other form of conflict resolution or apology-seeking that exists.
Sorry, it's been one of those months. I keep climbing up on my "good god, why don't people just think critically, man up and take care of their own messes before looking to blame someone or get compensated for the random that is life?" soapbox. I must be suffering a lack of whiskey.
Dano - I don't know why you're fixated on how he looks. I don't care about the dude's goatee or hair or shirt or whatever. It's, as brujita says, all in the expression: "The thumbtack between my legs makes me better, my wife is my possession, therefore I can behave however I please to her". It's the way he tilts his head up and tries to talk down to the judge who's fucking trying his case. It's the way he tries to turn "No Ma'am" into getting the upper-hand, and the smirk he gave when he tried to say that "it would only be assault if you stretched it too far", or whatever.
Yeah, maybe his wife is a skank. I don't know, I stopped watched because that guy skeezed me out. He's skeezy. If my daughter was dating him, I'd get a restraining order.
crush - yeah, there are a lot of ridiculous cases on courtroom TV, but a lot of the time the plaintiff is just looking to get their money back. Even if they took it to a regular court and got a judgement, there would be no legal way to ensure they could recover their money. At least the producers of Judge Judy will pay out. It can be the difference between eating and not eating for some of these people.
I don't think it's the word "skeezy" that skeezed Dano out (though I don't want to put words in his mouth). It's the phrase "just *looks* like a ... wife-beater." I think his point is that, hell, I look like a wife beater, and so does he, and so do pretty much all men, not because all men beat their wives, but because any man could be a wife-beater. Add that to the fact that many of us know skeezy-looking people with hearts of gold, who would never even raise a voice in anger, and it equates to assuming the worst of a whole class of people (those who "look skeezy") because of the way they look.
The fact that this guy is skeezy is immaterial; saying that he *looks* skeezy implies that there is a skeezy look that others share. That many of those skeezy-looking people are actually skeezy is also immaterial.
Avoiding traps like this is something I was taught in a college Women's Studies class (after reading all this commentary, my first thought, which won't go over very well even in parenthesis, was "Oh, so 'skeezy' is like 'slutty': one look and you just know.")
It's not a matter of this guy being a poor poster-boy for this crusade. It doesn't matter that he is skeezy. The trouble lies in identifying people as skeezy by how they *look* instead of how they *act* or what they *say*. (Which, on preview, was the whole point dano was making, muddgirl -- he's fixated on how he looks because, and correct me if I'm wrong, dano, the original comment was fixated on how he looks as well. No fair changing the field of play in order to whistle a foul).
I don't think dano's wrong to question the choice of words, and the criticisms he's received here may miss the point. The guy's a skeeze, sure, but not because he looks a certain way. Period.
So the problem is with the word "looks"? Even after mudpuppie and brujita and ethylene and I said that it has nothing to do with his physical appearance, or the way he dresses?
But people have repeated, it's not the way he "looks" but his manner and behavior, which is why he's on Judge Judy. One can observe behavior which is not his shirt and his hair.
And it's not a wrong point to make except it flew at a side comment made by mudpuppie that she didn't and wasn't going to respond to.
That's all I'm saying. Dano said what he said not in the face of what all these people said later, but in a reply to the offhanded comment and disagreeable escalation (and refusal to explain) that she offered. All the things that have been pointed out are true, and right, but I don't think they address why he was offended in the first place. This revision and evolution of the basis for his complaint acts as an after-the-fact bulwark from which to take pot-shots at an increasingly imaginary opposition. It's not fair, and most of the people using this tack would be upset if it was turned on them. And rightfully so.
He had a choice as to whether or not he seethed for 18 hours in a thread when the object of his upset made clear an answer was not quickly forth coming.
I understand your point, Janus, but I have to respectfully disagree. It takes two to argue, and yes, perhaps mudpuppie was short in her answers, but dano unjustly assumed that she was saying something that she never said.
And it's all the perfect example of why I had no interest in responding. If the entire problem was the word "look," it would have been much quicker for the offended parties to say, "You know, mudpuppie, I have a bit of a problem with the way you phrased that. 'Looks like a wife beater' is offensive to me for X, Y, and Z reasons.'" THAT would have made me think about it, and it's quite likely that I would have said, "Oh, you know, I never thought of it that way. That's really not how I meant it, but I see your point. Sorry."
But to be baited by dano by an invitation to "elucidate the details of my stereotype" -- no. That's not a trap I was about to walk into, especially since my crime was... that I used the wrong verb?? There was no way to "win" the argument that dano had mapped out in his head. It's something I've seen here a million times, and I had no interest in participating. Still don't, but I thought I should at least explain why I wasn't explaining, since others have now been accused of "taking up my slack."
Honestly, had someone else said something, nicely, I wouldn't have reacted the way I did. But I've seen this too many times before. Like I said, not a game I wanted to play. And that's no stereotype. That's learning from history.
Anyway, to all who were offended by my apparently poor choice of verbs, sorry. (But I promise I was not impugning your penis, nor the entirety of peniskind.)
Again, completely vague. Can you name a specific trait that makes him look like a wife beater? Because I'm betting, whatever it is, most men who share it are good people.
No, I can't. Sorry. This is one of those things that you just know and there's no other answer than that. To be completely honest, if I walked past that guy in the street, I might not know he is a wife-beater and it is likely that that specific trait was imprinted on me by my reading the comments here before viewing the video. However; I would know instantly that he is some kind of skeevy arsehole and I would not want anyone I care about to associate with him in any way.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm the first one to jump on the bandwagon to defend men against stereotyping, but nobody here even hinted that the behaviour of this guy had any implications about men in general - it's all about that particular man. There is plenty of evidence here of women (and men) having all sorts of good things to say about all sorts of men and I'm confident in saying that that attitude does not prevail here at all.
There was no way to "win" the argument that dano had mapped out in his head.
mudpuppie, I didn't have any sort of argument mapped out in my head. The truth is I'd just read 3 separate AskMe threads where some dude was (unfarily IMO) was called a rapist or a wife beater, and when I saw that "he just *looks* like a wife beater" I snarked at it. (I became "fixated" because nobody seemed to be getting my point, so I kept repeating it. I was also feeling defensive, obviously.)
I honestly didn't think much of whose quote it was. I can understand why you might think I was posting out of a (old!) grudge, but I really don't believe its true and ask that you not try not to read so much between lines of my comments. In the future, I'll be diligent about avoiding any sort of criticism of you. Peace?
photo by splunge
photo by TheophileEscargot
photo by Kronos_to_Earth
photo by ethylene
