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26 September 2008

Debate Party!
post by: LoriFLA at: 20:02 | 206 comments
'The greatest physical crisis in our time'? Or was that 'fiscal'?
posted by box 26 September | 20:07
Hi, Lori, so nice of you to invite me. The place looks great--love the decorations! I brought some Presidential IPA and some cheese and crackers.
posted by box 26 September | 20:09
I don't suppose there's any place on the web that has a live text transcript, is there? I feel like I remember finding one in 2004 but for all my seeking there is little finding so far.
posted by Wolfdog 26 September | 20:10
Oh thank god y'all are watching!
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:10
I'm too nervous to watch.
posted by ColdChef 26 September | 20:10
Well, so far McCain has a very very tentative and dour and even downcast tone of voice.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:11
I'm watching on CBC!
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:11
I have a hard time taking lectures on greed from a man who doesn't even know how many houses he owns.
posted by jrossi4r 26 September | 20:12
Partner is watching, and I keep peeking... I can't help it.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 20:12
And I bought Doritos for the occasion!
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:12
I already know who I'm voting for*, can I be excused? from the debate, not the partying.

*unless obama gets caught molesting baby turtles or something in which case I'll vote for whoever the libertarian guy is
posted by jonmc 26 September | 20:13
ooo. "What's good for Wall Street, not what's good for Main Street."

Lehrer is trying to get the candidates to talk to one another.

McCain's left eye is really droopy.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:13
Obama looks driven. McCain looks tired and unsure.
posted by DarkForest 26 September | 20:13
Why aren't they talking to each other?
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:15
Thanks box, I put them up myself.

I'm nervous too. I did the nervous dance a couple times before they came out.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:15
I don't know how either of them do it. Talk about an exhausting job.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:15
WHOA these Doritos are "Hot Wings" and "Blue Cheese" flavours both in the same bag! It's like hot chip, cool chip! I love technology.

"We Republicans came to power to change government, and government changed us."

CORNBALL!!!
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:15
Barck needs to attack... make John react, in real time, rather than speechify.
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:15
pips is watching in the next room. she said that McCain's 'trying to do a Reagan.' You'd think that his advisors would've told him to imitate the pre-Alzheimers Reagan.Pre, John, Pre...
posted by jonmc 26 September | 20:16
Neither one of them has the guts to talk to one another. I'm not saying they don't have guts in general, but it's risky. You risk coming across as overly aggressive or snide when you speak to the candidate.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:16
Bear DNA? Three million dollars? That's chump change. Not to fall into bumper-sticker cliche, but what's that, about ten seconds of Iraq war, or the tires on a stealth bomber?

(The party's hoppin' over at Mefi, too.)
posted by box 26 September | 20:16
Obama is listening to McCain's responses and looks prepared and confident. McCain looks haggard and unsure.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:17
McCain bitched about a 3 million dollar earmark to study bears.
Obama bitched about 300 billion in tax cuts for the rich.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:17
(I think I'll stay here, not there.)
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:18
What the? Is 'I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate' a subliminal Palin dis?
posted by box 26 September | 20:19
"I don't know where John's getting his figures"
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:19
but it's risky. You risk coming across as overly aggressive

John will collapse if actually engaged in aggressive debate. Barack is letting him speechify, bogus.
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:19
The "Bear DNA" thing seemed like such a random project to call out.

Hey McCain, spending is not inherently bad. Sometimes money is spent on GOOD things, you pasty old douchenozzle.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:20
What the? Is 'I didn't win Miss Congeniality in the United States Senate' a subliminal Palin dis?



Total LOL.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:20
I don't think McCain is blinking enough. Also, he is sounding kind of winy. AS if we just don't get it and he has to tell us these simple things that escape out attention. I guess it's defensiveness.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:21
The hand gestures are annoying: Obama either puts his index and thumb together or his finger tips together. McCain's an index finger pointer.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:21
He sounds REALLY whiny.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:22
McCain, I totes consider $250,000/annum rich, you not-knowing-how-many-houses-he-has asshole.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:23
Ob looks into the camera, McCain doesn't seem to.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:23
Ooooh. Good call on explaining that the $5,000 healthcare thingy is taxed.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:23
Christmas tree ornaments???
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:24
I soooooo want McCain's latent dementia to peek its head out in some obvious way tonight. Asking if Lehrer is his mommy would be a good way.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:25
Obama's totally killing him on these tax questions.
posted by box 26 September | 20:25
Evil chuckle, McCain.

Asking if Lehrer is his mommy would be a good way.

Oooh. I'm a bad girl for wanting that, aren't I?
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:26
I love it when Obama says, "Look, that's just not true." He's so non-defensive, he just flat-out states it. So much better than laughing snarkily like McCain keeps doing.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:27
Do you think that McCain is the kind of driver that hits shopping carts when driving out of the supermarket parking lot? If not he's definitely the kind of guy that walks around the park in a shower cap and talks to the dirt.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:27
My copay has gone up to $70 for a specialist.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:27
Much like George H.W. Bush, I'm pretty sure McCain hasn't been in a supermarket in forty years.
posted by box 26 September | 20:28
Obama does look good. McCain sounds good. ;-)

I'm eating popcorn, finishing off a diet coke and wishing I had a glass of scuppernong wine instead.

Obama's got his flag pin on, I see.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:28
Are they gonna discuss foreign policy tonight?
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:29
I love it when Mccain tries to paint Obama as some kind of radical leftist. Hello?!! (This is the extent of my debating skill: saying "Hello?!!"
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:31
30 mins in and FINALLY they are answering the question, kind of.

LOL@loiseau
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:32
Spending freeze on anything other than veterans and defense???????????

Scalpel rather than hatchet indeed.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:33
BTW, are there ever breaks? In case I have to pee, for example?
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:34
Homer Simpson is standing on his couch and cheering...
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:35
That Twitter page is pretty dizzying. I just saw someone compliment McCain's "manboobies".
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:35
Spending freeze on anything other than veterans and defense?

It is NOT agressive to call out this wacky bullshit, I don't see why Barack is letting John get away with these statements???
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:35
You have to pee?! There's no peeing during a Debate. There are people in China that can't even pee when they want.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:36
Orgy of spending!
posted by box 26 September | 20:38
To be fair, John did say entitlements along with defense and veterans...he did say it more softly.

I know why his arms seem so awkward, but still, they are...awkward, aren't they?
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:38
Miss Congeniality! He said it again!
posted by box 26 September | 20:38
He just repeated the Miss Congeniality comment. Wow.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:38
Whoa, I can't believe he managed to make it 38 minutes before his first use of the word "maverick".
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:39
It's painful to see his arms.

HE SAID MAVERICK - EVERYONE DRINK!
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:39
Oops. Gotta get a beer.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:39
I can't believe it either, Meatbomb. My heart sunk when McCain suggested a spending freeze. I cheered when Obama said early childhood education is important to him but I wanted him to say more.

I think Obama is making points that are hitting home with the undecideds: Taxes, health care, jobs.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:40
(which will just make me pee even MORE!)
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:40
"we are winning in Iraq"... wtf?
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:41
OMG is anyone seriously under the delusion that the US is "winning in Iraq"??? I mean seriously?!??
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:41
Dang, I wish Obama hadn't said there were only 4000 lives lost so far in Iraq. I know lots of people don't care about Iraqi lives but he should've mentioned civilian casualties.

I love this confluence of posts:

I think Obama is making points that are hitting home with the undecideds: Taxes, health care, jobs.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:40

(which will just make me pee even MORE!)
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:40
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:43
I thought Barack brought that back around very nicely to his lesson from Iraq.
posted by oreonax 26 September | 20:43
Hey, good point. Not what we did but what we do NOW.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:43
(If you drink fast, stew, you can use the bottle to pee.)

LoriFLA - good point, who is he answering his questions to.
Loiseau - So many people believe that we are winning the mission in Iraq. It is very sad.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:43
We bought off the crooks and hoodlums, McCain. We didn't need more troops to do that.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:44
I didn't know a committee could oversight things.

(If you drink fast, stew, you can use the bottle to pee.)

That would be very very messy. A jar, maybe. But I'm not drinking Mickey's.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:46
what ~is~ the difference between a tactic and a strategy?
posted by oreonax 26 September | 20:46
FFS "doesn't know dif between tactic and strategy"... after Obama has outlined the grand strategic mistake??
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:47
I see McCain doing better than I thought. Fire it up Obama. Stop with the reasonable leader thing, you've established that, hit it home now.
posted by rainbaby 26 September | 20:47
Strategy doesn't work in the long run, while tactics don't work right now.
posted by box 26 September | 20:48
Stop with the reasonable leader thing, you've established that, hit it home now.

Ayup.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 20:49
Stew, pee out the window!
posted by loiseau 26 September | 20:49
Very little in the area of sound-byte answers here.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:49
I see McCain doing better than I thought. Fire it up Obama. Stop with the reasonable leader thing, you've established that, hit it home now.

I think Obama is killing McCain on Iraq.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:51
He's giving John a pass, it is insane. ATTACK, Barack, the clock is ticking.
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:51
It's jarring when McCain keeps dropping in lines from the speechwriters. Especially since he sounds very awkward when he does it. Just SPEAK dude, and forget the slogans for one night. You used to have a brain. Use it.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 20:52
I think reading MetaFilter has ruined me for the real world. I need red meat... John has fucked up so badly so much, and Barack is letting John pretend everything is normal.
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 20:53
Calm down. If he attacks, it'll make him look bad.

YOu know what? Too bad these two can't go on a lecture tour together rather than run for president. Two smart fellas.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 20:54
Why wont Oba get tough on McCain? There have been so many opportunities.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 20:55
This is a golden opportunity for Obama to look like a hawk. Damn right we're going to go after Bin Laden. Take off the gloves, Obama.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 20:55
I have a record. I have a record. It's a 78.
posted by box 26 September | 20:59
If he attacks, it'll make him look bad.

I think he'd look bad if he was all attack attack attack, but McCain pulled his Maverick act again this week, and now he's engaging in reasonable discourse with him the whole time. He's missing a chance to fire it up.
posted by rainbaby 26 September | 21:00
"I've got a bracelet, too"
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:00
Is it me, or is this bracelet stuff really pretty weird?
posted by box 26 September | 21:00
It's so sad that so many people respond to bombastic verbal attacks -- I'm so much more impressed by Obama's ability to agree and find common ground with McCain.

Um... did McCain just say the US won the Vietnam War?
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:01
He's mentioned his military involvement - EVERYONE DRINK!
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:01
dueling bracelets. The new politics.
posted by kodama 26 September | 21:01
Box, it's not just you.

posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:01
I think the reason Obama's letting McCain get away with so much is that McCain's sneaking in way too many falsehoods and misrepresentations to address in the time allotted.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:02
Is it me, or is this bracelet stuff really pretty weird?

It is weird. It's inappropriate for a debate. This is a back and forth dialogue. They shouldn't be sharing anecdotes from the campaign trail.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 21:03
Obama is a cerebral guy. If he tries to be firey and it isn't in his nature, I don't know if it would work.

I won't vote for him, but he's not doing bad at all.

posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:03
"I've got a bracelet, too" is going to be one of my favourite quotes from the night. I can feel it.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:04
League of Democracies!
posted by box 26 September | 21:04
I feel sorry for the timekeeper.

I did that job for a campaign forum once (while I was pregnant no less) and it's not easy to get a politician to shut up.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:04
Ooooh! The League of Democracies, would they all have matching bracelets?
posted by jrossi4r 26 September | 21:04
LOL, jrossi!
posted by box 26 September | 21:05
(why do I keep thinking, "It's clobberin' time!"?)
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:05
I so can not wait to see Palin get julienned by Biden next week. Dude's just such a cool customer and Palin has demonstrated this week that she's not so good on the whole unscripted-speaking thing.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:07
Iran already has enough plutonium for a dozen or so bombs. They have the bomb already - practically. I don't know what these guys are talking about.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:08
WHEW! My internet went out there for a bit.

(and I didn't even pee! I was too freaked out!)

(Nice stumble on the name)
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:08
Obama totally is firey, bunny-f - "yes we can?" etc? I think he needs to pull something out of his gut here. But hey, I'm not a politician, and like you bun-f, I won't vote for McCain, but I think he's doing a good job.

Except for the verbal foils. Achmoonimmija. . .Akmoonini. . .and I saw a few of those earlier. Age. But not scary age right now.
posted by rainbaby 26 September | 21:09
I love this comment from the Mefi thread:

McCain: The debate is off.
Obama: No it isn’t.

McCain: ...!?
Obama: ...

McCain: ok
posted by Smedleyman at 5:23 PM on September 26 [19 favorites]
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:09
I mean SPAIN!
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:12
I don't even have a seal yet.
posted by box 26 September | 21:13
NORTH KOREA!
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:13
I hate this tendency -- McCain and Palin both have it -- to laugh when they disagree with something they're told. It's incredibly condescending and snarky.

MCCAIN FORGET 'THE DEAR LEADER' WHAT IS THE STATUS OF *YOUR* HEALTH!?!!?
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:15
Ew, this nasty side of Mc reminds me of my father.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:15
Name-dropping a war criminal like Kissinger doesn't seem to be swaying the independents.
posted by box 26 September | 21:16
Russia: I see them in the airspace!
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:16
McCain is seriously losing his cool on Iran.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:16
I keep idly hoping that at the end of this, we'll hear that voice from Mortal Kombat, "FINISH HIM!!!" And the winner will pounce on the other and rip out his brain with the spinal cord dangling, and all this shit will finally be over.

I hate this tendency -- McCain and Palin both have it -- to laugh when they disagree with something they're told. It's incredibly condescending and snarky.


Fucking AGREED. It's lame, and offensive. Luckily they'll laugh no more once their spinal cord is flapping in the breeze.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:17
say "loose nukes" five times fast

"staring into his eyes and seeing his soul" heee
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:18
Babality!
posted by box 26 September | 21:18
Even without any substance, I'm sure McCain is scoring lots of points with the sort of people that support him. He'll be bringing out "there you go again" comment any minute now. I don't think I can stand to watch it any longer.
posted by DarkForest 26 September | 21:19
I think the laughing thing is a manifestation of intense cynicism. You're not even operating on the same level as the same person anymore.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:20
"I looked into Russia's eyes and I saw three things: a K, a G and a B."

Wow.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:20
* same level as the other person anymore
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:20
I hate this tendency -- McCain and Palin both have it -- to laugh when they disagree with something they're told. It's incredibly condescending and snarky.


It's characteristic of arrogance, too. The kind that a person who is afraid would have. Typical.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:21
This agreeing with Mc by Ob is brilliant.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:22
This agreeing with Mc by Ob is brilliant.

I like it. It shows diplomacy and maturity and it makes McCain sound so whiny by contrast.
posted by loiseau 26 September | 21:24
Ooh, walk-the-walk!
posted by box 26 September | 21:24
Republicans should NOT use bridge as a metaphor.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:25
It's explore, John. Not, exploit.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 21:25
Obama should've pushed to get the no-nuclear-waste-through-AZ thing in there.
posted by box 26 September | 21:26
It's explore, John. Not, exploit.

Somehow I think he was speaking as he thinks.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:26
It seems to me that McCain is intentionally misrepresenting everything Obama says, while Obama is giving straightforward answers. Is it just my bias or is it coming across to everyone that way? I turned it off. I couldn't listen to McCain say one more time "Obama doesn't seem to understand...".
posted by DarkForest 26 September | 21:28
OMG, why did you talk about airport security????????? That doesn't make anything safer!
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:29
Airport security was a bad choice. And, DF, I would agree. Ob is being very straight forward. Mc is very defensive.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:30
Maybe if you say Obama doesn't understand enough, people will just believe it.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:31
SDI? Wasn't McCain just talking about wasteful high-tech military projects? When it's Saint Ronnie, I guess you make an exception.
posted by box 26 September | 21:31
More sacrifice doesn't justify past sacrifice.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 21:32
I am so glad I'm not watching this. I'm getting angry just reading the updates here.
posted by ColdChef 26 September | 21:33
Hey, leave Saint Ronnie alone!!!!
(clutches republican beads)
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:34
I am so glad I'm not watching this.

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be, either.
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:34
ooh, Obama just did the laugh thing.
posted by rainbaby 26 September | 21:34
McCain will Mike the right judgements. . .
posted by rainbaby 26 September | 21:35
Hey, CC, not that bad. This is the calmest I have been this whole election season. These two know how to talk.

Yes, Obama, I know where you got your name. Yeesh, both you guys, can the anecdotes! It's too pageanty.Just tell us what you are gonna do.

I'm thinking of jibjab unicorns...
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:37
Obama's answer about focusing on Iraq to the detriment of being able to face any of our other perils was fucking PERFECT.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:37
pow ffs John fuck off
posted by Meatbomb 26 September | 21:37
He mentioned his being in prison - EVERYONE DRINK TILL YOU PASS OUT.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:37
That's it? All done????!!!!!

Wow.

Let the aftergames begin.

(I'm outta popcorn...)
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:37
Aw, how cute... Obama kisses his wife, McCain kisses his replacement wife.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:39
i stopped and it's weird i was watching him in the first place. i even watched part of Bush the other day.
i forgot what did it but i'm already drinked a sip too far.
posted by ethylene 26 September | 21:39
Next debate the drinking rules should be put up beforehand.

PBS commentary is good.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 21:39
I think Obama did very well early, McCain got his groove toward the ending.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 21:39
Finally a break! I can PEEEEEEEEE
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:40
Look, even I think there should be a statute of limitations thing on the McCain marriage snark,he's been married to Cindy longer than I have been married to Ralph, for one thing.

posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:41
*congratulates stewriffic's bladder for holding out*
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:42
WaPo, I'm learning too late, did fact-check liveblogging.
posted by box 26 September | 21:42
PBS commentary is good.

My PBS station isn't even showing the debates tonight. WTF?
posted by Stewriffic 26 September | 21:43
Look, even I think there should be a statute of limitations thing on the McCain marriage snark

My dad divorced my mom when she became disabled, so it kind of rankles with me that McCain did the same thing to his wife. (I only found out about it in the last year or so.)
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:45
I love the fact that Biden is commenting (on NBC) on Obama's debate, but Palin declined, so Giuliani is there.
posted by gaspode 26 September | 21:48
Only just found out about McCain's I mean.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:48
I like that fact checking blog. We need much more of that. Why can't the candidates have their feet held to the fire over their misstatements and mis-characterizations? That's a running complaint I have with interveiwers.
posted by DarkForest 26 September | 21:49
Where do you live, Stewie?

BoringPostcards, his exwife is friends with him and has a vote for McCain sticker on her car. If she's not mad at him, why should I be at this point? She herself says it wasn't her disability. I believe her.And he has always looked after her financially.

Anyway, that was thirty years ago. He said himself it was his biggest messup.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 21:51
If my dad had had the sense to run off with a gazillionaire, I bet he could pay my mom to say the same thing, bunnyfire. (Well, possibly not... she IS Irish.)
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 21:54
Bwah!
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 22:00
I had a great time at your party, Lori. But I've got to get up early tomorrow. Goodnight, everybody.
posted by box 26 September | 22:07
I love flipping around to see what all the talking heads have to say. I even go to FOX because I always like to hear what Charles Krauthammer has to say. Charles agreed that Obama was strong in the first hour. ;-)

The next debate (VP) is Thursday. Have your party pants, and drink, on.

Goodnight, box. Thanks for coming!
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 22:10
It was awesome, Lori, thank you... :)

I dunno if I'll be back Thursday or not. Moose Girl makes for some cringe-worthy TV, and I hate watching people be humiliated. I didn't like Borat for the same reason. I may come hang out in the front room and have a few beverages with y'all, though.
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 22:23
I'm right with you, BP. I ran out of the room while watching Borat so many times. I couldn't do it. I could barely watch Candid Camera as a kid. Candid Camera! I am weak.
posted by LoriFLA 26 September | 22:27
I thought that Obama was solid but didn't really break through. McCain was better than I thought that he'd be, he can talk and knows his foreign policy trivia but he really doesn't have anything to day. He keeps bringing up "The Surge" as if means more than a last ditch attempt to salvage something out that complete disaster.

I loved that Obama kept saying that the war was a stupid thing to do in the first place.
posted by octothorpe 26 September | 22:27
I thought Obama had a great attack on McCain in regards to Iraq and Iran, but he failed to make it. Iran *is* more influential in the region because of our invasion of Iraq. It's Ahmadinejad that can announce his visit to Iraq in advance, not Bush or McCain or Obama.
It's also still debatable whether "The Surge" actually succeeded or not. By the time "The Surge" got really going in full swing, we had already started bribing Sunni tribes into not attacking our troops anymore and ethnic cleansing of neighborhoods in Baghdad were pretty much finished.
I'd still like to hear what either candidate has to say about the Iraqi refugees that our invasion created. Ah, who am I kidding? Nobody has a plan to help those poor souls out.
posted by NoMich 26 September | 22:39
Barack did fantastically for a guy who kept having to redirect the conversation to What The Facts Are.

Barack also doesn't have to call himself by some ludicrous superhero name. I'm sick of John McCain self-identifying as The Maverick. (said in Batman voice).

Also, when Barack speaks - he just speaks and says his peace. When John McCain speaks, first he's Mr. Condenscension, then he's Humble John for the television audience, then he's wistful Mr. Memory Lane guy.

Look dude, you're running for President, not auditioning forOur Town.

posted by Lipstick Thespian 26 September | 22:51
LT, he knows his audience.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 23:02
What was with McCain mentioning Reagan like twelve times? Does he want really want us to identify him with a dottering senile old man?
posted by octothorpe 26 September | 23:05
I'm so tired of choosing between the lesser of who the hell cares.
posted by WolfDaddy 26 September | 23:06
Honestly? Pulling out Kissenger and your buddy-buddiness with him was not McCain's best move because a) it lacked the panache of a "Senator, you're no Ted Kennedy" [btw, wtf with bringing up Kennedy's illness in the middle of his opening statement?] and b) I doubt the undecideds really care too much about Kissenger anymore.

Do they?
posted by TrishaLynn 26 September | 23:08
I think he was showing his history his connectedness with the beloved old regime.
posted by MonkeyButter 26 September | 23:21
LT, he knows his audience.

bunnyfire, you're always saying this about politicians you like. What is the point? That they're pandering? Do you believe what they're saying, or is it just a show for the rubes out in rural North Carolina?
posted by BoringPostcards 26 September | 23:28
Well, LT, people don't generally associate humble with politicians. I don't know if with McCain it's an act or the real thing, but doggone it he can play humble. I was thinking about it during the debate...I think folks on my side of the aisle are so sick of political hubris that any humility portrayed is like a breath of fresh air.

Obama? He gave off a very scholarly air. Great for a professor, but I dunno if folks will warm up to that. He doesn't seem real-or to be more specific, McCain seems able to portray himself as someone who has been in the trenches and is tired of political BS.

I think his fans like that. I can't speak for you guys.
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 23:48
@wolfdaddy-hee!
posted by bunnyfire 26 September | 23:50
McCain looked OLD. Damn old. And what the hell was up with the Eisenhower joke? Christ, might as well have told an amusing story about Wilson. His mood seemed to swing from "tired" to "angry contempt." Neither of which helped the, well, looking damn old part. If I closed my eyes he sounded to be more in control of the debate, but when I opened them it was all "angry old man yells at cloud.
In any case, I think Obama was more in control of the first half. Lucky for me, as an Obama supporter, that the first half was about all the average person has the attention span for.
posted by kellydamnit 26 September | 23:55
As far as appearances go, I thought McCain and Obama looked just fine, but by comparison, Biden and Guiliani looked terrible. Am I the only one?

I'm also really surprised they didn't even trust Palin enough to give commentary on her runningmate. I mean, seriously, what the fuck. You can PREP her during the debate, even give her a teleprompter so she won't get off track. Augh. I thought that was a bad move for the Republicans. "Here's the VP candidate for the dems, and um we tried to get Palin to venture in front of a camera but she declined." Weak sauce.

I liked the juxtaposition of the anecdotes at the end. "My name/father came from Kenya!" "I was a POW!" Yes, you're both very special. ::pats heads::

McCain did pretty well, I think, except he often ventured into "overly negative" territory. Like when it was really obvious that he was trying to paint Obama as "not getting it." Yes, John, we heard you the first time you used the line. That kind of stuff plus the snooty laughing when Obama said something he didn't think was true really gave me a bad vibe. To be fair, I suppose, Obama did smile a few times, but he seemed to do it more when he was looking at Jim for back up in a sort of "...are you serious? Can I comment on that?" sort of way. And am I the only person who noticed that Obama was clearly looking at McCain most of the time, while McCain didn't ever really look at Obama, even when Jim asked him to?

I dunno. One thing I'm ticked about is that the only person who seems to be voting for McCain in my suite isn't necessarily someone I would ask for commentary on this (he didn't watch it, and a few weeks ago I had to repeatedly ram it through his skull that Obama wasn't muslim). At dinner today, when I informed everyone that the debate was tonight and McCain had stated he would be attending, he was all "Obama was the one who didn't want to debate McCain." We were all kinda "...what are you talking about?" I had to explain to him that McCain suspended his campaign etc etc and he still was like "yeah well... Obama didn't want to debate him." I guess he doesn't read the news? Oh well.
posted by CitrusFreak12 27 September | 00:22
I watched most of it, fell asleep for the last ten minutes. On what I saw, I would put it as a draw.

I don't think either candidate stung the other too badly. I liked Obama's tendency to look into camera from time to time, but he came over a little too much as Harvard Law Profession Delivering A Lecture. I thought McCain was wearing too much makeup, which which made him look like a waxwork.

BP: The difference between the VP debate and Borat is that in Borat the people he mocked were unaware they were being set up. Palin has put herself (or been put by McCain) into this situation. She deserves everything she gets.

Next Thursday evening I will definitely make sure I get a nap mid-evening as I don't want to miss a word of it.
posted by essexjan 27 September | 03:49
I stayed with the toothing baby in the bedroom so I missed most of the debate. Reading this thread is awesome though - thanks to you all.
posted by saucysault 27 September | 04:02
Okay, first of all Bunnyfire - John McCain knows how to tool his audience.

This folksy crap doesn't work. He wasn't folksy with Obama, he was condescending and dismissive.

THEN, all the sudden, he flips to Humble Public Servant mode for folks like you. And just to hammer that pablum home, he also threw in his superhero names like The Sheriff and The Maverick.

There's absolutely nothing "fresh" about this for anyone who lives in a non-comic book universe.

There's nothing "fresh" about a VP candidate who cannot form noun-verb-direct object sentences when being interviewed by Katie "The Today Show" Couric.

There's nothing "fresh" about a Presidential pick that routinely turns the business of bringing their message to the electorate into endless stunts, delays, and grandstanding.

There's nothing "fresh" about a party who believes less in governing the nation than in coddling the rich.

You want to really breathe "freah air?" Try a candidate who stays on message, deflects nonsense in order to re-frame this debate and deliver facts, and who stays calm under pressure.

What do you really believe in, Bunnyfire, seriously? I've heard this "breath of fresh air" nonsense talking-point from a lot of other people with a lot less intelligence than you possess.
posted by Lipstick Thespian 27 September | 11:12
LT, this is a light thread and I am going to keep it that way.

I do know from my training and observation that people see through a grid of what they themselves believe. What I personally saw was McCain just being himself. I can't tell you what to see, and I won't. I personally don't like to see a lot of polish on a candidate. Others may differ.

posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 11:34
I personally don't like to see a lot of polish on a candidate.

Wow. Well, here's your candidate without his polish on. Make sure you check out the part about what he calls his wife.

That's pretty folksy, all right. Not the kind of folks I look up to, though.

I'm sure glad I don't have to stick up for this guy, bunnyfire. I know you feel that you do, but it must be pretty hard to do.

posted by Miko 27 September | 11:41
So everyone I've talked to has said they're going to find some way to ditch Palin before Thursday. I really wonder how they'll manage without looking like they're admitting to a huge fuckup. (but really, when COURIC owns you in an interview you are in no way capable of even holding half of your own against someone like Biden.)
posted by kellydamnit 27 September | 11:51
I really wonder how they'll manage without looking like they're admitting to a huge fuckup.

With an excuse. I think they'll drop her too (it's such an enormous risk not to), but they can't look like they're cutting her loose. So I suspect what will happen is that they'll manufacture a family emergency of some kind, and she'll appear to withdraw because of the need to put her family first in this time of crisis etc.

On the other hand, someone mentioned to me that the expectations for her are so low that it will be hard for her not to exceed them. If she does debate, and most people expect her totally tank, and she manages to stay afloat - that will look like a success and be confidence-building among her supporters.
posted by Miko 27 September | 11:56
If she does debate I'm sure she'll be wired like Bush was when he went up against Kerry.
posted by kellydamnit 27 September | 12:00
Agreed - there's no way in hell they'll let her go it alone.

The funny part would be if she stopped midsentence and you could tell she was listening.
posted by Miko 27 September | 12:10
Caribou Barbie: Pull her string to hear her spout ambiguous non-committal banal sentence fragments! I'm looking forward to it.

Obama looked just a bit too self-conscious, like he needed to relax and get comfortable (heh, a shot of whiskey immediately prior, perhaps). He will only improve in the coming debates.
posted by goo 27 September | 12:42
Okay, I'm going to bite through my entire tongue and not derail this thread into vitriol.

Of course, the question remains: why no polish on a candidate, Bunnyfire?

What's wrong with polish? What's wrong with actually looking like you know what the hell you're talking about/acting as if you've actually made the most of your education/actually appear as if you're ready to lead an entire nation?

But you know, let's keep it light up in this hizzy.

Others do differ, Bunnyfire. It's a word called gravitas. I don't want to feel the same way about THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD as say, I do about Bill the Grocery Bagger or Petey Postman.

seriously, for the rest of you in this thread, I apologize.
posted by Lipstick Thespian 27 September | 13:03
I might be wrong, buy I think bunnyfire has some strong convictions that guide her voting. I respect that. I can't respect calling a candidate too cerebral or scholarly.

Cerebral? Scholarly? Professor-like? Too much polish?

I insist my presidents be stupid!
posted by LoriFLA 27 September | 13:16
The funny part would be if she stopped midsentence and you could tell she was listening.

I've been searching, but can't find, a clip of Jerry Hall when she tried hosting a chat show in the UK and was utterly confused on hearing the voice of the director in her ear. I'm hoping something similar will happen on Thursday. I bet Palin will wear a skirt so the device can be more easily hidden than it was in Bush's jacket.

Word is already out that a mock debate and mock press conference for Palin have proved 'disastrous'.
posted by essexjan 27 September | 13:25
Polish is a different quality from intelligence. I have seen too many polished turd politicians in my lifetime. (Note here-NOT calling Obama a turd. Not at all.)I guess the reason I like people a little less polished is I associate polish with bullcrap and I associate unpolished with someone more real and genuine. And older people in particular seem to be more along the lines of"keeping it real." I think many folks may find that a feature, not a bug.

Presentation is important. I'm not saying that it isn't. Again,I'm not calling Obama a turd -I definitely don't think that of him-and when he is off teleprompter, he's not perfectly polished either.(My favorite example of polished politician would be John Edwards.) He IS scholarly. I look forward to seeing who he is in, say, twenty years or so.

I agree Obama is very competent. Another reason I won't vote for him-he would be competent in putting into action things I don't want to vote for. If he were a Republican with Republican positions I would be in hog heaven.


posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 13:40
Thinking about this a bit more-would you all consider Ronald Reagan polished or unpolished? I think he managed to have absolutely the perfect tone as president. Carter absolutely had NO gravitas at all. Also, Bill Clinton is someone I would consider to be more of someone people can relate to. Not a fan of his but I would definitely have coffee with him. It'd be a hoot.And yet when he needed to haul out the gravitas he had it. Again, Carter,not so much.
posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 13:43
(I AM cringing re Palin. )
posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 13:44
A year or so ago, I was all bought in to the whole McCain as maverick independent moderate republican stuff, so I figured it'd be OK whichever way the election went (though much prefer democrat of course). But I've been absolutely horrified by McCain's stance, statements and attitude since he became the nominee. Palin's a ludicrous nightmare. Is there really talk of dropping her? I haven't heard that anywhere else. But remember Dan Quayle? The VP alone won't sink McCain.

But if anyone think this is in the bag for Obama, I think they are very wrong. I find it very unlikely the undecided will turn to him, over the comfortable old white man. Everyone who is dissatisfied with this republican, right-leaning, burn the environment and give everything to the rich, shift of things here really needs to pull out all the stops and get everyone to the polls if there's to be any chance at all. We need to get the truth out about McCain's and those 527 group's mis-characterizations of Obama, before he gets swift-boated. *takes a breath* All I can say is, I'm registered to vote for the first time in 20 years.
posted by DarkForest 27 September | 13:46
DarkForest, a columnist in the National Review has called for Palin to drop out.
posted by essexjan 27 September | 13:50
Bush wasn't a 72 year old four time cancer survivor, though. His keeling over halfway through the first term wasn't nearly as realistic a possibility as it is with McCain. No one actually expected Quayle to have to take over.
Mathematically speaking Palin has about a 50/50 shot at finishing out McCain's first term. Maybe better.
posted by kellydamnit 27 September | 13:53
Palin raises her face into Ohio's cornspace. I believe she is facing in the direction of Russia.

≡ Click to see image ≡
posted by essexjan 27 September | 13:56
Ha!
posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 14:08
bunnyfire. I totally understand what you're saying. I think Ronald Reagan had confidence to spare and was cheerful. People love that. McCain was contemptuous last night. He should check the laughing. That being said, I think we was pretty well composed for the most part. He strikes me as rash, impulsive. I think it was Eugene Robinson who said last night that if you closed your eyes you would think McCain won, but with McCain's slouching and sneering, he came across as contemptuous. At one point he was giving the evil eye when Obama was speaking. Remember when Al Gore was sighing and huffing and puffing? People don't like displays like this.

I do not share Palin's ideas, but I do feel bad for her. I know she willingly accepted, and she must have known what was in store, but I still feel bad. I don't think anyone is bullying her, or being too hard on her, but I still don't want to see her humiliated. I wish she had the foresight to decline when she was initially asked to run.

This was before the Couric interview but I very much agreed with Michelle Martin's take on how Palin was being treated. I don't agree that abortion should be illegal but when she told Charlie Gibson that she personally felt it shouldn't be legal I actually respected her. She came across as very sincere. Now, she is just a confused mess.
posted by LoriFLA 27 September | 15:40
He strikes me as rash, impulsive.

In general, that is. Not necessarily during last night's debate.
posted by LoriFLA 27 September | 15:49
I know she willingly accepted, and she must have known what was in store

I don't think she had any idea what was in store. She's always been a big fish in a little pond, the pretty, confident/arrogant, popular 'can-do' woman who has a way with men, who's entirely used to getting her own way. I think she couldn't have had any possible idea of how far out of her depth she'd be, or she wouldn't have accepted.
posted by essexjan 27 September | 17:15
essexjan, you may be a cilantro eater, but I have to agree with you on that one. Even though I agree with Palin on a lot of issues, I have to say this woman IS out of her depth.

I WILL be praying for McCain's health if he gets elected. I think down the road she'd be fine-she has the intestinal fortitude-but she is NOT ready to be President.
posted by bunnyfire 27 September | 17:30
My boyfriend was talking to his brother this afternoon, to follow up on the general election conversation they've been having. He (brother) said his interest had been piqued by some of the articles my bf had sent, but didn't really think it was going to make much of a difference in his decision -- till the economic shit hit the fan this week, and McCain pulled the whole Hail Mary stunt. Which prompted this comment:

"I've never been on the fence like this. I never really thought about it before -- I'd vote Republican because that's what I've always done. But the economy is screwed, and all McCain seems to care about is how it affects rich people and his own poll numbers. War hero or not, he doesn't seem to give a fuck about the middle class. Dude, I... I think I'm voting for Obama!"
posted by scody 27 September | 20:54
would you all consider Ronald Reagan polished or unpolished?

Reagan had decades of experience as a professional actor of decent quality. He was polished.

Bill Clinton is someone I would consider to be more of someone people can relate to. Not a fan of his but I would definitely have coffee with him.

I would not. I am morally certain that it would somehow end up with me having sex with him and possibly an alpaca, and somehow thinking it was my idea. I don't think he has private conversations that don't end with a brisk rogering.
posted by ROU Xenophobe 28 September | 11:03
ROU Xenophobe, I think I've aged out of the target range. ;-)
posted by bunnyfire 28 September | 20:32
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