Analysis paralysis.

Analysis paralysis.

Not having read the small print, I'd have to agree.

And my own small print:

I was counting the hours until this showed up here.

Analysis paralysis.

There are as many was to be a man as there are men. It's your responsibility to define what being a man is for you. Part of that process will be dealing with what other people think of you. Please just never forget that we judge each other the same way we judge ourselves.

Hadjiboy, it is entirely possible that your sister is a woman who wants men to take care of her and needs men to take care of her to feel like a woman. The question here for you, at least in part, is do you need to help your sister maintain sister's belief in her womanly helplessness or patronize woman in general, to feel like a man.

The choice is yours and NOTHING anyone else thinks about you makes what they think true.

Analysis paralysis.

Man, that's a great phrase. Thanks for that.

Er, after reading the askme post, I agree with the diagnosis of analysis paralysis. It seems to me that you're at the intersection of so many competing cultural norms that there's never going to be a right answer. Part of me wants to snark "welcome to postmodernity" while another part of me wants to just give you a big hug.

Hadjiboy, I realize analysis paralysis isn't very helpful to you. Let me try to explain what I mean. Observing you (through your posts here, on MeFi, and on your journal) from afar, it seems to me that you are spending more time analyzing your life than you are living it. Let yourself go. Enjoy life. Live it.

What is it they say, "Eat, drink, and be merry ... for tomorrow we may die." While I'm not encouraging hedonism, get away from worrying so much about what others think, wondering if things will ever work out for you the way you want, and just be.

Do some reading on the web about acceptance. Learn to accept that what is, is ... and make the most of it. Concern yourself less with the whys and wherefores, and more with what makes you happy. Stop over-thinking and go outside and play.

Amen paralysis.

(I'll go ahead and encourage some hedonism, if Miko won't.)

Maybe you could read this.

I will say though - if someone is in an uncomfortable situation, it is not unmanly to stand up (firmly and non-aggressively) for them.

Being a Muslim, Indian man is very different from being a liberal, Western man. As you've seen from the picture-taking incident, these two archetypes of manhood are often diametrically opposed. The question becomes, what kind of man do you want to be? :)

Analysis paralysis.

Thank you for explaining that, netbros.

I think it was By the Grace of God who'd once asked me why I had spent almost a decade of my life holed up in my room here, and if I had to explain it to her in two words--I don't think there could be two other words more apt than the ones you've used... funny, ain't it--to have ten years boiled down to two words.

MonkeyButter, it's not that my sister feels that she should be taken care of by a man, if you could see her--you'd be amazed at how much of a strong, independent woman she is--but having moved from a society where she had never faced such situations before, to a country where she did not know anyone, or the customs, or the language involved, you can understand how uncomfortable she must've felt from time to time to face those kinds of agonizing moments alone. But she didn't have to; she had a lot of good friends, guy friends, looking out for her, who cared for her deeply, and weren't afraid of showing it in ways that I wasn't capable of. I think she appreciated that a lot, and I wish I could go back there and be a small part of that appreciation that she'd felt in those early days when we landed up here, instead of just thinking that she should be able to take care of herself--after all--it's an equal world.

I wish you guys could see what I can, just for a minute, if you could go through some of the same things that I have, and then see if you could give me the same advice, with the same zing, and the same condescension. I don't mean to be condescending either, but it hurts... I guess I get hurt too easily.

I thought that maybe if I found a bunch of foreigners, maybe (just maybe they'd have a clue about what it feels like to be an outsider in an inside out world like India), but I guess I was hoping for too much. We have a saying here about being stuck between two worlds that I'm not quite remembering the words to right now, but it refers to the person as belonging to neither one as he can't discern either of them completely. That's how I feel sometimes.

I'm sorry if this feels a bit too analytical, but it's what you go through I guess. And the worse possible thing that could happen on top of that is for someone to belittle your concerns at every opportunity that she can get... I don't know what I've done to you mudpuppie, but whatever it is--I'm sorry for earning your wrath. I never knew you could be so mean spirited; there was actually a time when I thought you'd be the only one to probably understand what I've had to go through, being a woman who I'm sure has had to go through difficulties of discovering her own self-identity, but you've made it clear over and over again that you don't give a damn about what other people have had to face if it is not something that is within your scope of understanding...

hadjiboy, there is an extent to which "a group of westerners" will put up with wallowing agonizing, just as there's a limit to which anyone would.

Metachat is a safe environment and you have an empathy-arousing intelligence and quality of prose which is why people don't jump down your throat with mockery at the perpetual (and circular) angst. As you've observed on metafilter this isn't the norm online.

The fact is that you can live in India and be true to--here's the kicker--yourself. It's just that the people you've surrounded yourself with--blockheads who say they will set you on fire because they wrongly accuse you of sleeping with "their whore"--are not aligned with the type of person you are. That's fine for thrill seeking but as you've found out it's not a sustainable relationship.

You don't want to attack people for taking pictures of your loved ones. That's a good thing. Find a wife who agrees. They're out there.

The truth of the matter is that there are a whole lot of Indians who're just like you, who're completely attuned to Western culture at a level beyond many Westerners--books, media, music, whatever--you just need to go out and find them.

Why are you sitting in dingy rooms smoking pot with self-described accused murderers instead of going to professional meetups and frequenting bars? Not to be elitist but find more upscale company.

My point about circularity is that talking about oneself sure is interesting but if you were writing these as life status reports (where I went and who I met this week), wouldn't it be much more positive? Carpe fucking diem.

Everyone worries about identity. Everyone worries about whether they're too this or too that. Too bookish/too airheaded? Too Indian/too Western? Too ambitious/too homely? The trick is to stop worrying about synthesizing every single judgment made by people in your social circle or in magazine articles or whatever and find a personality that's in keeping with what you find comfortable. And this is a lifelong process.

First off, I do hope there's nothing wrong with the pilot light in your apartment.

I was hanging out at my favorite West Village bar when I noticed a guy wearing a shirt based on this webcomics (warning: extreme nerditry that I only understood when someone explained it to me contained in link). I laughed and said that I liked his shirt, and he smiled brightly invited me to sit back down and have a cigarette with his friend, and we started to talk and smoke and whatnot.

I forget his name, but he was a darker-skinned Indian than his friend. He also mentioned something like how his friend was from a higher class than him because he was from the more northern part of India and had lighter skin. When we talked and smoked, he continually expressed a frustration with the United States, the brain drain from India, how people were just different here and that he wasn't handling the transition as well as his friend was, due to the class system.

I can't imagine what it's like knowing from birth that you're not as good as someone else is, because I didn't really encounter that brand of sexism growing up. I understand that the changing role of man within humanity is something that needs getting used to, and the role of woman is changing as well. Just as us women need to define for ourselves what that means to us, men should be or are doing the same thing.

I also suffer from "analysis paralysis," but that's only because I think I shy away from revealing my coarser thoughts and feelings when I make those instant, snap-judgments based on my emotions. I mean, some of it's justified, like how I hung up on the guy last night who was cursing me out and calling me a fat cow because I chose to try and end a pointless conversation by being so extremely rude. He deserved to be hung up on, because I'd already told him that I didn't think a relationship would work out, I had wished him well, and there was nothing he could do or say to talk me out of it. And when he kept asking why, and I already told him why, and he just kept repeating every other point ad nauseam, just trying to keep me on the phone and whittle my resistance away, I decided that I'd had enough and said that the other online conversations I was having with my friends was more important than talking to him.

Now I have to go through life knowing that one more person hates me, thinks I'm a crazy bitch, and you know what? I'm perfectly okay with that. So who cares what he thinks? I know I did the right thing for me and in that situation, even if I didn't project the image of a "woman" but the one of the "crazy bitch." I know the truth of what happened.

You will too.

For what it's worth, I stopped my own analysis paralysis when I got too busy to be able to do it. I took a second job, got a hobby, and starting volunteering one night a week.

My current problems are more along the lines of my family complaining they haven't seen me in months, but that's a different subject.

TrishaLynn, will you please explain that comic?

Seconding the 'splain pleeze' to TrishaLynn.

Seconding small_ruminant, it sounds as though you have plenty of time, get out and do something with it. There should be plenty of opportunities to volunteer in Hyderabad, maybe talk to your Imam about social programs run through your mosque you can be part of, to start with.

sudo, s_r and elizard.

But we who care about justice and the full range of human possibility for our sons and our daughters alike ought not cede the definition of manhood so easily. The opposite of boy, we can argue, is not “man” — nor is the opposite of “guy” necessarily “gay”. The opposite of boy is “adult”. While for most of us, our biological identity as male or female is defined in the womb, becoming an adult is a long (and in affluent Western culture, perhaps overly long) process. A man, simply, is a male human who has, through a set of experiences and received wisdom and good choices become an adult male. And a woman is a female human who has, through a similar set of experiences and wisdom-building choices, become an adult female.

I’m fine with an oppositional tension between “boy” and “man”, or between “girl” and “woman”. But the root of the distinction ought to lie in the acquisition not of sexual partners, or in the display of the ability to reproduce, but in the ability to exercise the classic characteristics of adulthood: the capacity for sober reflection, the ability to practice some degree of delayed gratification, empathy for others, emotional independence from the value judgments of peers. Both males and females can acquire those abilities; no male or female has all of those from birth. These qualities can come as easily to men as to women, and the sheer number of sexual partners alone has damn all to do with it.

I don’t share my “number” on this blog. I will say this: I have a depressing number of short-term (in many cases, one-time) partners on my “list.” (No such actual list exists, of course, I tore those up years and years ago.) And though I am not in the habit of engaging in reverie over my sexual past, I can say that I slept with a great many of these women less out of libidinous desire than out of status-seeking. Reading about “Ted and Kristy” in Kimmel’s book, I felt that awful shudder of recognition. Time and again when I was young I pursued and slept with women to whom I was not terribly attracted, but whom I knew other men found desirable. What I wanted more than orgasm was approbation; a reputation as a guy who could score was infinitely more valuable than the scoring itself. And I did a lot of deceptive, thoughtless, and irresponsible things in pursuit not of pleasure but of evidence that I was desirable — and, above all else, a man.

Whatever wisdom I have today is as much in spite of my experiences as because of it. “We become what we do”, the old saying goes — and unlearning old behaviors is not, despite all the claims to the contrary, particularly character-building. All of my experiences have given me some perspective and some empathy, I suppose, as well as a horde of colorful anecdotes that I am more and more reticent to share as I age. But no matter how many women I fucked, no matter how many bold and impulsive and jaw-droppingly stupid things I tried when I was young, none of these experiences made me a “man.”

We all know the Apostle:

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.

And that’s what makes a man: to give up the childish, boyish search for homosocial approval. (And in a not terribly dissimilar way, it’s what makes a woman too.) We grow into manhood and womanhood by putting away childish dependency, “kid fears”, and the juvenile tendency to avoid personal responsibility. Adulthood is ultimately the same for both males and females, and the terms “man” and “woman” are all but interchangeable with the word adult. They ought have no meaning beyond the combination of biological identity with acquired maturity.

TrishaLynn, will you please explain that comic?
and
Seconding the 'splain pleeze' to TrishaLynn.

Not that a Wikipedia link isn't useful, but the way I "remember" why it's funny is that it stands for "super user do" meaning that whomever enters in that computer command gets to overwrite everything else and his commands (or her commands--I ain't judging) take precedence.

In the context of the comic, it's like saying "Dude, you don't have to make me a sandwich" when it has clearly been declared Opposite Day.

Hee. Thanks, goo & TrishaLynn.

hadjiboy, that was not mudpuppie's wrath. I have seen the wrath of mudpuppie, and believe me, that ain't it. I suspect it's mudpuppie's exhaustion (an exhaustion which I share, to be honest), for the reason that Firas so eloquently stated in his first comment. It's why I would have stayed out of the main thrust of this thread, if you hadn't yet again gone on the attack when you didn't get the unconditional support you appeared to expect.

It's why I would have stayed out of the main thrust of this thread, if you hadn't yet again gone on the attack when you didn't get the unconditional support you appeared to expect.

And, since hadjiboy's question is ostensibly one about growing up, I will simply make the following observation:

It is not the mark of a healthy adult to expect to be treated with kid gloves, to demand only support and positive reinforcement, and to immediately take the position of the victim in response to criticism. Those are the marks of a child, or of a narcissist.

Also: consider reading some Marcus Aurelius.

Is it the mark of a healthy adult to let other people walk all over you? I don't have a problem with people giving me constructive criticism (constructive being the key word here, ala netbros, whose explanation of the phrase "paralysis analysis" I really appreciated, and will be using to define my condition to anyone in the future [something I was unable to do before because I wasn't able to explain it so eloquently--thanks again netbros!]). And MonkeyButter's attempt at trying to understand my sister, which was also appreciated even though it might not have been accurate, but at least she took the time out to read and understand what I was getting at.

But mudpuppie just seems to want to pop into a thread so that she can shit all over me... okay--wait--are you now going to tell me that I haven't seen mudpuppie shitting on others and that what you suspect this is is just a fart... ? (C'mon, wasn't it she who'd said that she would never be interacting with me again or something in the other thread where we'd gotten into something like this before. And I've posted multiple threads since then but I don't think she's bothered to reply to anyone of those, except this one.) I know she's your friend, and I can admire the fact that you guys want to protect her or stand by her if you think she's being attacked--but trust me--this wasn't no attack either elizard (you'd know when I was in the mood for one of those too by the way). And if she is such a good friend of yours, don't you think you owe it to her to tell her that she might not be the paragon of whatever she thinks she is by spoiling my mood everytime she thinks she has the right to... she doesn't want to read my threads--fine--tell her to stay the hell out. Why the hell do I have to suffer her hollow snark whenever she feels like letting go?

Hey, hadjiboy. Get out and get some fresh air. Get involved in something. No one's picking on you. Stop obsessing over what's happening here and pay attention to life where you are. What do you hear right now? What scents are in the air? What season is it? Who's running a productive NGO in your neighborhood? Are there any book groups nearby? What are you reading? Is it super-urban where you are, or are there gardens - even small ones?

Look outside yourself. Breathe.

Why are you sitting in dingy rooms smoking pot with self-described accused murderers instead of going to professional meetups and frequenting bars?

Because they're outcasts, just like me... this was something that I was thinking too after I'd realized into what bad company I'd fallen, and I wondered what it was that attracted me to these people--and that was it I guess; I identified with the kind of look they got when they stepped into a room. People would move away from them as if they were "different". And you know what--they didn't care a whit. And that's what I wanted to be like, and so I became a part of their circle, trying to fit in, and not give a damn about what anyone else thought... which is kind of stupid too as I soon found out (what with my mom worrying so much for me that she had to cry herself to sleep sometimes wondering where the hell I was, or if I was coming back home that night).

The truth of the matter is that there are a whole lot of Indians who're just like you, who're completely attuned to Western culture at a level beyond many Westerners

The problem is that there aren't too many Indians (at least who I know of) who've been brought up under a Western Culture, with a heavy dose of Islam thrown in for good measure, and then dumped onto a multicultural fire-cracker like India.

Firas, I know sometimes it gets too much, sometimes my ramblings may seem too over-wrought, but believe me--that's the way I feel sometimes. When I'm not feeling like this, and I have other avenues of letting out my steam (when I'm with friends; if I have friends at that point of time to be with), then I usually don't post here that often.

And occhi: you want to know what my definition of a man is? There was this 18th century Indian reformer by the name of Raja Ram Mohan Roy who not too many people know of in the west because (as it has been suggested in this interesting article that I had read once: the concept of "non-violence" is much more acceptable to a western audience than people taking up arms against their tormentors). But Raja Ram Mohan Roy didn't give a rat's ass about that.

Here was a man of noble blood, highly educated, a great writer and orator who had no problem in delivering soul-arousing speeches to the masses, and then coming out on the roads and having a good fist-fight or two with the local goons who were troubling the people... he stood for humanity, at any cost.

scody, you should give some of his works a read too.

Hey, hadjiboy. Get out and get some fresh air. Get involved in something. No one's picking on you. Stop obsessing over what's happening here and pay attention to life where you are. What do you hear right now? What scents are in the air? What season is it? Who's running a productive NGO in your neighborhood? Are there any book groups nearby? What are you reading? Is it super-urban where you are, or are there gardens - even small ones?

Look outside yourself. Breathe.

Can we have some of the same advice for mudpuppie too please... I think she needs to get out as well.

But mudpuppie just seems to want to pop into a thread so that she can shit all over me...

Fine, hadjiboy. You want to make this about me? I'll take the bait, but only to prove that this is about you, and to show you that you are resolutely DEAF to that.

In a thread of 24 comments (as I write this) [25, the last being yours] [26, the last being about how I need to breathe], only two of them were mine. They were both incredibly, pointedly innocuous.

C'mon, wasn't it she who'd said that she would never be interacting with me again or something in the other thread where we'd gotten into something like this before.

Please provide a quote? What I said to you last time (and this will come up again in a minute) is:

I haven't given you any advice in any of these threads because there are people here who are much better at it. They're also a hell of a lot more patient than I am, because it seems to me that you're far past the point of actually wanting to hear what other people say...

And surprise, nothing has changed. That is still all true.

You only want to hear WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR. Anything else is taken as a personal affront. A cultural misunderstanding. A universal fuck-you. I'm glad people still respond to you earnestly, but I'm not sure why they do. I guess a) most people here are generous and kind, b) there is an assumption that you might have a breakthrough, and/or c) there is a lack of institutional memory.

I won't examine others' motives. I'm sure they are just and kind. But yes, mine are spent. Kaput. It's hadjiboy fatigue.

And I've posted multiple threads since then but I don't think she's bothered to reply to anyone of those, except this one.

Yep, you've posted multiple threads since the last one in which I responded. (That was on July 26th, by the way.) There were 13 of those threads to which I did not respond. Since you seem to think that I shit in every one of your threads, it'd seem that you'd thank me for not responding to 13 in a row. But hey! Let's hear it for drama!

But. To wrap up. This is about you.

You post these threads with the expectation of receiving complete affirmation. If anyone questions you or proposes another way of looking at things, you take offense. You see it as cultural bias. You see it as personal bias. You see it as an unfair attack on your character. You see it as a group effort at character assassination. But you never, ever, see that you may have something to learn from these people from whom you so constantly seek affirmation.

Do you not see how that can get old?

I'll admit this: I feel obligated to point it out. And I think that's why you think I'm the bad guy. Why do I feel obligated? Because this is a nice place. And because people here are reluctant to say difficult things. But I swear to a nondenomiational and hypothetical god, hadjiboy, I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of you asking for opinions and then refusing them. I feel obligated to point out the pattern for the people who are going to fall for it. Not really for you. You -- you know what you're going to get. You know how it's going to end.

So don't put it on me. Don't act like it's my problem.

Hmmm.

Hmmmmmmmm.

hadjiboy, if you want an echo-chamber, your own blog is a place where you can have much more control over what appears and where you can expect things to be done your way. Metachat is not your blog, it's a community where everyone is entitled to their opinion and to voice their opinion.

I can't believe you are surprised that some people here are weary of you constantly wondering why the whole world is out to get you when the enemy is not out there - it's in your head. As a member of this community you are, of course, entitled to voice your opinion and start threads on whatever crosses your mind, but you are not entitled to decide who says what in those threads. Once you hit "post", you no longer own the thread.

Given that you have had almost exactly the same conversation here a dozen or more times before, you must have anticipated where this was going to head, so why do you bother? If it makes you feel better to get this stuff out, then that's great and I'm glad we can help but, if not, what's it for?

At the risk of proving your conclusion, I agree with what mudpuppie has said - you two obviously rub each other up the wrong way, but that doesn't make either of you the only one that is right - if you want to be a man, start by not obsessing over every comment that is made in response to your baiting. There's something you can do that won't even hurt and will get you more respect in this community than any number of beaten and bloodied opponents. If that matters to you (and there's no reason why it should).

mudpuppie, for the sake of argument, have you ever thought that it could be "you" that could be wrong? Is there even the slightest possibility that maybe it is you who have misjudged me, and not the other way around? Are you always right about everything and everyone 100 % of the time, and why do you need to be the enforcer of this board, and tell the things which people presumably don't have the gumption to say... how convenient for you by the way.

They were both incredibly, pointedly innocuous.

To whom, to you? Sure, because they weren't about your pain, or your suffering, or your anything, so what would you know.

And yeah, you've only made two comments in this thread out of 27 I'm assuming, but that's only because as you'll notice there isn't a dearth of people who are willing to stick up for you for whatever reason... could it be because you're right and I'm wrong--sure. But could it also be because they are maybe more susceptible to you than they are to me... why not? In any case, as you'll probably see--I'll again be called out for something or the other after this post and you'll probably not even get a mention... whatever.

Please provide a quote?

Sure thing: here's what I said--"C'mon, wasn't it she who'd said that she would never be interacting with me again or something in the other thread where we'd gotten into something like this before."

And this is what I was referring to: One last thing: I'll do you the favor of ignoring your labored attempt to compare this subject to my rodent infestation, because it's just entirely too ludicrous. It probably is, though, what made me respond (again).

Since you find my posts ludicrous, as I'm sure you do this one, why do you want to respond to them again and again... can't you see a pattern here... just drop it, for both of ours sake?

You only want to hear WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR.

And you think you don't?

Anything else is taken as a personal affront. A cultural misunderstanding. A universal fuck-you.

That's only when people like you get involved.

I'm glad people still respond to you earnestly, but I'm not sure why they do. I guess a) most people here are generous and kind, b) there is an assumption that you might have a breakthrough, and/or c) there is a lack of institutional memory.

Or d) they're not as judgemental as you are, thank god!

But yes, mine are spent. Kaput. It's hadjiboy fatigue.

I'm suffering from a mild case of mudpuppie-itis as well.

Yep, you've posted multiple threads since the last one in which I responded. (That was on July 26th, by the way.) There were 13 of those threads to which I did not respond. Since you seem to think that I shit in every one of your threads, it'd seem that you'd thank me for not responding to 13 in a row. But hey! Let's hear it for drama!

You know, for a person who accuses other people of creating drama all the time, you sure do use that word a lot. Maybe you should really consider the motives for your using that word so much. And also increase the number of those specs of yours... what I said was: But mudpuppie just seems to want to pop into a thread so that she can shit all over me. Where did I say all, could you point that out to me?

But. To wrap up. This is about you.

Yes, yes--we all know it's all about me here. That's why you've taken it upon yourself to defend the righteous... it's never about you, is it? You're just there to look at all the "drama".


You post these threads with the expectation of receiving complete affirmation. If anyone questions you or proposes another way of looking at things, you take offense. You see it as cultural bias. You see it as personal bias. You see it as an unfair attack on your character. You see it as a group effort at character assassination. But you never, ever, see that you may have something to learn from these people from whom you so constantly seek affirmation.

I'm sorry to inform you, but that is your mistaken assumption. I've already told you that I appreciate it when people give me constructive advice.

Do you not see how that can get old?

Do you not see how telling you all of this over and over again can get old?

I'll admit this: I feel obligated to point it out. And I think that's why you think I'm the bad guy. Why do I feel obligated? Because this is a nice place. And because people here are reluctant to say difficult things. But I swear to a nondenomiational and hypothetical god, hadjiboy, I know I'm not the only one who gets tired of you asking for opinions and then refusing them. I feel obligated to point out the pattern for the people who are going to fall for it. Not really for you. You -- you know what you're going to get. You know how it's going to end.

Yes, I'll eventually get tried of posting here and stop. Until then, like you--I'll be obligated to tell people how unreasonable and uncaring you can be sometimes, even though I've told you that I'm not interested in talking to you anymore. And as certain as I am that there is a god--I'm sure that there are people here who get tired of your pushy attitude as well, mudpuppie, and I will feel obligated from now on to point that out to people who are going to fall for it... I like this place too you know.

dg, I post because I must. It's like a rush, a drug. I feel good, and elated to know that there are people out there who might like to read what I have to say. I don't try and intentionally get into these fights--believe me, I'd much rather avoid 'em, but I don't appreciate it when people make assumptions about me and then expect me to accept them. I'm sorry--I can't do that. I am however grateful to be a part of this community, and like I've said--I don't mind the criticism if it helps me, but I just don't see the point of throwing something out there that is of zero value and to then expect the other person not to respond to it in whatever way he or she feels appropriate.

I hope you can understand that. Anyway, I think I'll give this thread a rest for now and let all the people who'd like to voice their concerns about mudpuppie's opinions not be heard have their go.

"I'm sorry to inform you" -- Oops, big mistake there; real men don't make empty apologies.

*sigh*

We in a rut here. This is the rut:

hadjiboy, you often make deeply personal posts asking questions about your life, with a lot of philosophical queries and open-ended statements.

People naturally respond with their own ideas about the situations you are presenting, which are various.

You usually take offense at some point early on: in this thread it was here:

I wish you guys could see what I can, just for a minute, if you could go through some of the same things that I have, and then see if you could give me the same advice, with the same zing, and the same condescension. I don't mean to be condescending either, but it hurts... I guess I get hurt too easily.

after what I saw as very non-aggressive, non-hostile comments, except for mudpuppie (which yes, was fairly mild, but definitely dismissive).

Somebody usually says that responding will be pointless because you don't want different points of view or advice that doesn't match what you want to hear.

The rest of the thread becomes a knot of explanations and accusations back and forth about how people don't understand you, and other people saying you don't understand how discussions work, etc.

This gets tiresome. Very, very tiresome, and very predictable. My suggestions in the past have been A.) you, hadjiboy, don't post about personal stuff here, or if you do, be ready to hear differing viewpoints without getting your feelings hurt, and B.) people who are fed up with the rut, stop participating in these threads.

I'll ask this again.

Hadjiboy, please stop posting about personal things unless you can handle the ensuing conversation.

People who are fed up, please avoid these posts if they make you angry.

real men don't make empty apologies.

Well then, you should probably know about that, Ardiril.

taz, thank you for your measured (and fair) response.

I'll try and reign myself in for your sake if no one else's.

Oh give me a break. I'm an Indian muslim who lives in the capital! Stop pretending that your overwhelming psychological stasis is an existential identity crises. Your problems are much more related to regular introversion and whatnot than the fact that you just happen to be part this part that. You have other siblings who're much more well adjusted right? Despite having gone the same route. What do you think is special about them; lack of intellectual curiosity?

If you "don't care enough" to keep your mom up crying all night surely you don't care enough about random people on the internet. Oh but you do. The rush you describe? It's called attention-whoring. It's why you like dragging your AskMes into Metatalk. More talk about you!

Listen, I've had dustups with mudpuppie too (which she's long forgotten probably as have I) but this whole 'woe is me for I have not been handled with kid gloves' shtick doesn't befit anyone trying to figure out what being a man is like.

A "sensitive nature" is not an excuse for anything. Life is long and hard and vicious--so much more than you've known yet, going by what your experiences thus far have been like. Pick up some resilience before you need it.

Wholeheartedly seconding both mudpuppie and taz. And not because I am any more "susceptible" to either of them than to you (how insulting of you to imply that we don't have minds of our own here, that we are only swung one way or another).

It's late - and I am in need of sleep. I don't have any "allegiance" to anyone in this thread. I am not "susceptible" to anyone either.

I wanted to post something to point out how ludicrous you sound, and then realised I'm that person in the immortal xkcd comic.

I read your posts occasionally - go to type a response, then realise I have little to nothing to say that hasn't been said a million times before, so I slink away again silently.

I post because I must. It's like a rush, a drug.

This feeling is a big red flag. When you feel it, walk away from the keyboard and stay away for a while.

They were both incredibly, pointedly innocuous.

mudpuppie, if you know that hadjiboy has previously been upset by your comments, why are you posting even innocuous "me too" comments in his threads? (And, although I didn't read it that way at first blush, I can see how "I was counting the hours until this showed up here." was interpreted as harshness.) Is it really that much to ask to just leave him alone?

If you "don't care enough" to keep your mom up crying all night surely you don't care enough about random people on the internet.

My mom, well--what can I say about my mom... I think nicky and I had a discussion about that in which she made it clear what kind of a mom I had, and rightfully so. My mom has problems of her own to deal with, problems which she has never addressed in her life, and problems which she never will. What the hell do you know about my mom? What the hell do you know about living with a mother who thinks that Men are evil and that women should be wary of them at all times. It's been a long time since she's spoken like that thankfully, but I still haven't forgotten how it felt to be so rudely reminded that I may not be a "good" human being because of my sex... am I attention whoring right now Firas? Is this too much for you to handle with your thoughts of how I might just be another victim trying to wallow in self-pity and wanting to be handled with kid gloves, you clueless jerk.

Pick up some resilience before you need it

Yeah, right.

amro, I'm sorry if you thought I was insulting your (or anyone else's intelligence), that's not what I'd meant to do.

I just feel that mudpuppie might be given a little more leeway in such matters as she's been around here longer than I have and you all are a pretty tight crew. Again, I'm sorry if that sounded insulting.

I wouldn't characterize myself as a member of a tight crew here, although I imagine that there are others who might. I have never met most of these people in real life, and although I enjoy them, I don't mistake online relationships with people I don't really know for being equivalent to those I have with people I spend time with in real life. I suspect that you do, which may be part of your problem.

I wouldn't characterize myself as a member of a tight crew here

I stand corrected then:)

Sorry.

you clueless jerk.

Way to dodge the point--how many victim cards do you have in that deck? So your mom was worried about your well-being because she thought you were evil because of your sex?

What the hell do you know about my mom?

None of us know anything about your mom. You understood that *before* you asked the Internet for it's input, no?

There are plenty of boys in the rest of the world who are getting the exact same message from their mothers.

This issue isn't confined to the Middle East/South Asia.

So your mom was worried about your well-being because she thought you were evil because of your sex?

No, because my mom is worried of me all the time, because she doesn't think I should be out with other MEN, because she thinks that they're no good. Does that spell it out for you, or are you even more dense than I thought?

Way to dodge the point--how many victim cards do you have in that deck?

How many victim cards do you need?

dan, I usually feel that everyone else has the same kind of perception that I do, maybe that's why it's so hard of me to understand why so many of you don't see the same things that I do. Maybe that's my mistake.

No, because my mom is worried of me all the time, because she doesn't think I should be out with other MEN, because she thinks that they're no good. Does that spell it out for you, or are you even more dense than I thought?

Well, it's not like you're being real clear, here. Does your mom think you're evil, or are you an exception to the rule?

At any rate, you are almost 30 years old, so you need to get over what mom thinks of you and your friends.

Oh god, here goes: my mom thinks that Men are NO Good, and that if I am in their company, then I will too in turn become not good, which is why she has been trying to shield me from the world since the day I was born.

She used to be very rigid in this stance in the past, but has mellowed down a bit ever since my sister got married to a really great guy, thank god.

As for me--I think my mom has fused herself so tightly with my psyche that it's easier said than done for me to escape from her gravitational pull.

Oy vey.

I have to wonder how long the mods are going to put up with the personal insults and swearing and the like.

"you should probably know about that" - Yup, having read or heard others use that facetious "I'm sorry but..." phrase for so many years.

Personally, I'm ready to pass this whole mess over to my good friend Bobby Tables. (thought I'd continue with the xkcd love)

The mod position has been clearly stated by taz. Don't post if you can't cope with negative responses; if it makes you angry, walk away. Issues with the site should be handled by email.

We don't really delete comments, but you can be assured that this situation isn't being ignored.

hadjiboy, consider this an outside, unbiased view; I've not read any of your previous posts, I don't know you or mudpuppie from Adam.

I don't know to what extent the stereotype exists outside the US but here it is a powerful one: the intellectual, angsty, whiny teenager convinced of his own superiority and raging at the world that refuses to treat him with the gravitas his specialness demands.

I, for one, am quite familiar with the stereotype because I perpetuated it for a while.

I have no idea if you are this person, but on the internet you sound like him. You're not getting the reaction you desire, perhaps your content is being skewed by your presentation.

mudpuppie, if you know that hadjiboy has previously been upset by your comments, why are you posting even innocuous "me too" comments in his threads?

Well, because I really agreed with the comment I was me-tooing. I thought "analysis paralysis" was an excellent description of the situation, and I wanted to give it my vote, as it were. Could have kept my mouth shut, yes, but I felt that if the point got some public agreement, maybe it would be more likely to get some traction.

(And, although I didn't read it that way at first blush, I can see how "I was counting the hours until this showed up here." was interpreted as harshness.)

I take your point, Dano. It was probably harsh, and I should have kept it to myself. Apologies all around.

Is it really that much to ask to just leave him alone?

See, this could go a thousand different ways. One could just as easily say "Is it too much to ask that he not post questions about his existential crises here?" But that wouldn't be fair to him. By suggesting I "leave him alone," you're suggesting that I'm picking on hadjiboy. I'm not. I've responded to conversations that he himself started. Picking on him would be sideswiping him in an entirely unrelated thread with some sort of irrelevant insult. Disagreeing does not equal picking on.

But, that said, taz is, as always, the prevailing cooler head, and she's right -- I would probably do better to stay out of it. I am in the rut as deeply as anyone else.

It's difficult to contribute when the choices are a) agree, or b) disagree and be told that no, really, you just don't understand the problem. And then, if you have the misfortune of being a commenter later in the thread, after there has been enough disagreement that hadjiboy feels backed into a corner, the ugly, angry, personal language starts flying.

It's just hard, because it feels like we're setting up a special set of rules for a special circumstance, and I'm not sure really what the rules are. Except, maybe, Don't Participate If You Don't Agree. That's a tough one for me to swallow.

Anyway, I hate it when stuff like this gets this ugly here. Even if it was somewhat predictable from the outset (and I think it was), it always takes my breath away just a little bit. Apologies to all for any contribution I might have made to that.

Except, maybe, Don't Participate If You Don't Agree.

If "and you've previously had ugly fights with the poster"* is appended to the end is it easier to swallow?

* I don't actually know the ugly quotient of you two's previous encounters.

If "and you've previously had ugly fights with the poster"* is appended to the end is it easier to swallow?

I think that's a little unfair -- it sounds like you're missing context, but from what I've seen, hadjiboy is fairly generous in dishing out insults once he's gotten his back up. I think we *all* (and be "we all" I mean, all of Metachat as an entity) have been written off as clueless, dense, rude, and culturally insensitive multiple times. So by that rule, no one should be participating with hadjiboy's threads at all.

and be "we all" I mean, all of Metachat as an entity

Don't you think that's a bit unfair, occhi? I think I've stated on multiple occasions that it's not the site that I have a problem with, but some of the unhelpful comments that people make which get me riled up, or comments which might not be accurate and need further clarification on my part (which I am to blame for, obviously, so I apologize for that).

I think it's very easy to say that it's I who am being at fault here all the time, since I happen to be the only common denominator in all of this, but if you just went back and saw what started this thing, I'm sure you'll at least agree that I'm goaded into these positions to a certain extent...

If not, and if you truly think that I am being as big a menace to this site as you think I am, then I wouldn't want to trouble you guys any further.

I'm sure you'll at least agree that I'm goaded into these positions to a certain extent...

Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't agree, actually.

I see. Well, I guess you all are right then.

...no one should be participating with hadjiboy's threads at all.
Sounds like a plan I could get behind. In fact, I will. Perhaps taz is right (what am I saying? Of course she is, simply by dint of being taz!) - those of us who are sick of the tone, the personal insults and the inevitable slide towards pointlessness that ensues should just stay out and leave those who don't see things that way to concentrate on the subject of the thread. I mean this in the nicest possible way.

occhi, yes, if (generic) you have reason to believe somebody is not going to appreciate your comments in a particular thread, then don't comment. It doesn't matter if you're right, stupid arguments poison the community-spirit so just don't do it, especially if all you have to add is "me too".

It's a rule I've applied to myself after finding myself getting into too many arguments here and it's allowed me to enjoy the place more. I think it may be applicable in this case and said so. mudpuppie is welcome to take my advice or leave it.

believe somebody is

'somebody' meaning an OP.

Okay, the thing is that people (most sane people, anyway) go through times when they are oversensitive, or under certain circumstances become overly defensive, and we're especially talking "online" here, where we lack the facial and body language, tone of voice etc. that often mitigate the plain words that can otherwise be interpreted in a variety of ways.

I've had my own episodes of reacting too strongly for whatever reason. Something touches a nerve, or I am particularly vulnerable at that time for other reasons, and I take the worst view of things, or I swallow bait that I normally wouldn't have. In retrospect, it always surprises me when it happens because I normally view myself as sufficiently disinterested and secure, and take that psychological armor for granted - but this is not really true. At all. If the delicate¹ balance of things in my life goes awry, I can lose my objective viewpoint, or approach things with a veil of negativity. Easy to see later, but not so easy to understand at the moment that it's happening.

I think hadjiboy is in that sort of situation with respect to some things, and I think he agrees that personal posts are probably too rife with potential to set off strong feelings at this time. There are many conversations that we can have, and that we've enjoyed together in the past, that don't touch on sensitive subjects, so I hope we can look forward to more participation in that vein and be able to put hard feelings from here behind us.

¹ because all balance is delicate, really, which is something it's altogether too easy to forget when you are feeling strong. Speaking for myself here, really.

Oh, also? When I mention "bait" above? Has nothing to do with this thread. I don't believe that anyone baited anyone else in this discussion, at all.

*sigh*

I miss hadjiboy.

:(

Interesting.

What Miko said.

I had missed this whole thing as I was on a self-imposed sabbatical at the time.