I realize that this is self-destructive and occasionally embarassing, but how do you ignore that voice without losing your self-respect?

You learn to base your self-respect on something other than always having the last word and always
appearing to be right.

I'd also like to know if anyone else feels this and how they deal with it.

Of course they do.

know you are loved, and you are valued. even before any "Have To Learn" or "Have To Change" anything, know those things are true, pretty much no matter what. You're already rich in love.

You learn to base your self-respect on something other than always having the last word and always
appearing to be right.

That's only part of it (and this may be a 'guy thing'). It's sort of like, even if you know the bully is going to kick your ass, you have to take a swing rather than beg him not to hit you, otherwise you can't live with yourself. I realize that this can lead to some really stupid shit (and that goes for both Tommy and Spider in that scene). But the idea that somebody is snickering thinking that they 'won' and that other people are joining in makes me nuts.

(and yes, I know that's stupid)

What pup said, mostly, with the addition that, at this point in my life, I mostly try to stay away from these kinds of things--arguments, people who get personal, assholes, the whole megillah.

I don't think of life (or discussions) as a competition.

But the idea that somebody is snickering thinking that they 'won' and that other people are joining in makes me nuts.

Yeah, but if they snicker they only snicker for five seconds. Nobody remembers this shit. They move on to snicker at something else. I know you personally know a lot of people on the internet, jonmc. But you don't know most. They're strangers. In the case of strangers it should be easier to let go. Remind yourself of this. They don't know you from Adam. What they say or do, or what you didn't say or do, isn't going to affect your life.

I know it can be trickier in real life. I always try to remember is it's not my job to change someone's mind or give a smack down. People rarely have a change of heart during a confrontation. I can be very opinionated. I can get into some heated debates with a group of people. I always respect the person more who says very little, or chimes in if asked their opinion. I think the smart person knows that having the last word or "being right" is futile. Sometimes I go into an argument knowing I can't win and I do it anyway. I think it might be insecurity. I have a need to be heard. Mostly I think it's very important that I give my point of view, which isn't really important at all.

I have the same problem sometimes, jon, can't you tell? :)

I write a lot of angry comments, take a deep breath, then delete them. I try to deflect a potential flame-war by presenting my opinion light-heartedly. I force myself to give up - I mean really give up, as in abandoning the thread, or moving to a different table, or whatever. And so on and so on. But really, deep down, it takes a recognition that the person I'm arguing with ISN'T A BULLY, any more than I am a bully - if they were some sort of troll, then it would be easy to just walk away. When I frame it as an argument against someone who is like me, more or less, it's easier to recognize that it's in my power to disengage (not lose, not win, just refuse to play).

But really, deep down, it takes a recognition that the person I'm arguing with ISN'T A BULLY,

Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aim right for where it will enrage you the most, which is the surest sign of a bully. The others can be defused with a joke or a 'hey, let's just be friends,' but the bullies, not so much.

The thing you [that being the general you] need to remember about bullies is that they act the way they do precisely because their self-esteem is lower than yours. Bingo. You win.

You [that being the specific you] also need to remember that when you ask a question, and then respond to every answer with what is essentially a "Yes, but" you come across as argumentative and unreceptive. And then people start to clarify, or reiterate, and you "Yes, but" again, and you get into this cycle that seems like an argument, but all it is is a frustrating situation of your own creation.

You learn to base your self-respect on something other than always having the last word and always appearing to be right.

This is how I look at it.

I will never *win* that kind of argument, even if I am 100% right and the other person is 100% wrong. But what I *can* do is have the self-control to disengage.

This gives me satisfaction because:
- Exercising self-discipline is empowering
- I quickly forget the emotions and regain my equilibrium and peace of mind
- It may frustrate the other party to be faced with your apathy at continuing the game

The kind of personality that gets wrapped up in online debates is necessarily a person who won't let it go. Letting it go is actually a powerful (and empowering) act.

Letting it go is actually a powerful (and empowering) act.

So people keep telling me, but there's still that part of me that hears snickering even when I walk away. I suppose what I'm asking really is how do you silence that in your head?

Just ignore it as long as you can -- believe it or not, it fades much quicker than you'd think. Hold out!

Also, I think particularly on Metafilter, there are a lot of people who just get off on pissing all over whoever's there to piss on. Meaning they probably forget who they've just thrust their witty little barb at -- they're already on to another thread looking for more ways to demonstrate their scathing wit.

Never wrestle with a pig: You both get all dirty, and the pig likes it.

I think this was Miko's advice

Oh, and it might help to think about the other person being frustrated that you dropped out suddenly. Dropping out can be interpreted as not caring sufficiently to even bother replying -- look at it as your statement of disinterest in the other party.

So people keep telling me, but there's still that part of me that hears snickering even when I walk away. I suppose what I'm asking really is how do you silence that in your head?

I mentally review all the reasons that person is an idiot whose opinion is not worth the disk space being used to store it. If such person hates me, I must be doing something right! Ha! Ha ha ha ha!

I suppose what I'm asking really is how do you silence that in your head?

You seem to have no problem walking away and letting it go when you're dealing with the homeless lunatics at Famous Used Bookstore. You don't seem to care if they might be snickering at you, might think that they got over on you.

Why not place the online pests in the same category?

Sort of like deranged street people only with access to the internet.

Just a thought.

I'd quit it because I wouldn't always be so sure that who the actual bully is obvious.

+ is

A wise man told me 'Don't argue with fools/
'Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who.'

Jay-Z's not necessarily one of my usual fonts of wisdom, but it seems appropriate.

I feel this way often and whether I win over it or not depends on how mellow and centered I feel when the argument hits me, and whether I was expecting it or not.

Everybody has their "demons" to overcome, and I know anger is one of mine. I think of it as my Irishness, and while I keep it under control in my 40s much better than I did in my 20s, it's always there, and I've realized it's always gonna be there. My mom had it- a short fuse that goes straight into your brain and makes it explode beyond all reason.

I've learned to avoid certain people places and things that I KNOW will set me off. I've tried to learn perspective... does this really affect me? If not, I will try to back off. Reading the Tao te Ching has helped me a lot, though I can't always bring that to mind when somebody (often through no fault of their own) lights my fuse.

What we have to have is a strong enough sense of ourselves that the argument is something external... we aren't arguing to prove something about ourselves or to ourselves, we're just arguing as a way of discussing. We won't be any different when the argument is over, regardless of who "wins," and neither will they. It's just discussion.

I fail at this a lot, but so far I haven't given up.

there's still that part of me that hears snickering even when I walk away. I suppose what I'm asking really is how do you silence that in your head?

Two ways to shift perspective:

* If the other person is so invested in winning an online (or other) argument that they're going to snicker at me -- that is, they're not engaging in the debate, they're just trying to win -- then they're being an idiot. It's not worth my time.

* If I find myself so invested in winning an online (or other) argument just for the purposes of winning, then I'm being an idiot. And everyone else on the internet is snickering at me for continuing to argue. The smart people have already walked away for a reason, and I'm showing my stupidity by sticking it out. The only way to save face is to abandon ship.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What she said. She's real smart.

I suppose what I'm asking really is how do you silence that in your head?

Well, you're too old for Parris Island, but playing live poker for serious money will knock it out of you quick.

Something a bit more immediate, on serious political blogs I limit myself to three comments in any one thread -- my goal though is two. Try that to see if it forces you to engage the issue moreso than your adversary.

I'll just say, jonmc, that of course you and many here remember when I was the top poster at MeFi. I didn't know it at the time, but when that dynamic list came out it shocked me.

I had only recently gotten into such a bitter exchange with another MeFite that I had tried to deal with my anger by physically crushing down the garbage can in the kitchen, causing a soup can to slice open an inch-long half-moon scar that I still have. I used that scar as incentive to turn myself into a mostly-lurker, and in time I even fell off the top list (it took months and months).

Anyway, yeah, I had to sit on my hands a LOT. I spent some time cold turkey, then gradually allotted myself 1 post a day, then 2 (honestly, I had a spreadsheet) ... by the time I dropped the cap, I no longer needed it.

Classic cognitive feedback therapy.

Then, of course, there's xkcd. Print & tape by computer.

Part of me wonders whether you think I'm a 'bully'. If you do, it will be the first time anyone every thought that about me. Perhaps I should be flattered.

I am not sure why my happiness threatens you, or why my lexicon upsets you so much... perhaps your 'everyman' persona can't take the idea that I'm better off as I am. Maybe you want to drag me back to the trailer park... back to the coal mine... so you can feel superior to me.

Dunno. But I'm done worrying about it. Peace.

Respectfully, chuck (and jon), I think that many of us would prefer you didn't bring this thing over here.

jon, the solution is simple - you need to have a few kids and get a high-stress job and a huge mortgage. Then you'll have so many other things to worry about, you won't give a crap about what people on the Internet think of you.

If this is a case of bringing a slinging match from MeFi here then, yeah, not cool. If you can keep it to a general discussion about stuff, then fine.

My feeling is the same as occhiblu's; I now get more embarassed at myself for being the person who is not dropping it [perceiving possibly that there are people being judgey about that] than for being the person who is continuing whatever the mess is.

And, with my moderator hat on, people who can walk away -- and you never know quite why they do it, maybe their internet is down but maybe they made a conscious decision to step away -- always seem a lot more together than people who can't.

And the real problem is only when there are two of the "can't walk away" people who have decided to butt up against each other. Having the personality trait isn't in and of itself a problem, it's what happens when you encounter someone like you.

And as a regular old tactic, I always figure that something very very bad has happened in that person's real life [death of a pet, abused at home, whatever] that is causing them to act that pain out online. It's an unknowable factor but sometimes it can wedge that compassion angle with me where before I might not have been able to muster any. It's a mental cheat, btu sometimes it works when nothing else will.

I sympathize. As one who's had many a family holiday dinner ruined by such knock-down, drag-outs, I finally learned to just let it go (mostly). When my Dad was alive, it was a matter of avoiding any discussions of religion, politics, or the University of Michigan.

Lately, I've been learning from my school's principal, who just nods at everybody. He does it in such a way that you think he really gives a shit. Maintains eye contact and nods and nods. Even when you know it's bullshit, you feel better. Acknowledged, listened to.

Unfortunately, as a teacher, I often can't walk away. I'm stuck there in the room with these evil little shits. I do my best not to react/overreact, but it isn't easy. I actually had one kid tell me last year that he was there to "give teachers shit." He's not in the school anymore. I try to remember they're just children. (It's been a rough week. Better than last year, but still rough. Perhaps you're picking up on some of my stress, love.)

You did a pretty good job in this thread, jonmc :-)