How are you feeling about it? Hope you're doing ok.

Yes, it's much better that they have second thoughts after the marriage!

There's actually more to it than that, stil:)

Take me for example. I'm a classic the grass may be greener on the other side kind of a guy. Maybe if I'd waited long enough, I would've found someone prettier, more romantic, more compatible with me. For guys like us--this sort of forces us to make those hard decisions that we would've never made if left to our own devices. And, add to that--even if we were given the liberty to do so, what guarantee is there to say that that marriage wouldn't have fallen apart?

(I'm doing fine lysdexic, expect for this little problem that I might've gotten myself into at work... let's see if I have a job to return to on Monday, if the lady in question doesn't file a harassment suit against me, god forbid, but I'm thinking I have enough clout with everyone else in the class to put up a strong enough case in my defense (half of who are girls who think I'm a pretty decent guy, which I am by the way!:)) just not a very smart one though).

This girl had told me that she had not gone out anywhere for the past five years since she'd been in the city, and that she had no friends in college either. She passed out of my sisters college and was in the same year as her, only in a different field.

I always found her attractive in the shy sort of way--a wallflower just waiting to be discovered and ready to burst onto the scene--and I thought I'd be the guy to do that with her. All she needed was a bit of a confidence boost.

A couple of bad teeth and pimples on your face shouldn't be reason for anyone to cover their mouths when they need to laugh, or think that they don't look "pretty". So, we started talking, or rather I did most of the talking, which was unheard of since she never spoke to anyone in the class.

I said to myself--good, I'm doing something good. She told me and a friend of mine who was also there speaking to her that she had made two new friends that day, and I was ecstatic to hear that.

I asked her if she'd like to go out for Batman "The Dark Knight" when it got released over here since she'd always wanted to go to the Imax, as she had never been there, and I thought this would be the perfect opportunity.

She said sure, but only if I was paying and I said fine--not a problem. I thought she was serious and so I called her up the next day or the day after, and told her that the movie would be releasing soon, and when should I book the tickets for. She hesitated for awhile and then said she couldn't go because she had to go with her parents. I said fine, sure, I understand, and didn't make too much of it. Maybe she just wasn't ready yet.

Fast forward to yesterday, or the day before rather, and I sent her a text saying "Hey there!". To which she replied, "Who is this?" And I said, "Guess who???". And she was all flummoxed and said, "I don't have a clue." So I said, "I'll give you a hint--they call me the Dark Knight." And she said, "No, I have no idea." So I said, "Don't worry, I'll reveal myself in due time. Until then, hope you and your sisters have a good weekend with your parents." (That's what she'd told me she did at home, sleep and play with her two younger sisters, which made me feel even more sorry for her because she reminded me of me when I was stuck in the house with my parents and had no on else to bide my time with other than my sisters.

Long story short, the conversation ended with her telling me, "Please tell me who you are." And I said, "Well, since you've said please how can I resist, and called her up." Suffice it to say that she was not expecting that, and didn't know what to do. What made the problem even worse was that I didn't have enough balance in my cell so I had to make that call from a friend's phone, and as luck would have it (bad luck of course)--she happened to have that friend's number and so when I'd made the call his number automatically popped up on her screen, and she answered--*Friend's name in an irritated voice* and then hung up.

My friend was sitting on the couch in front of me, and I couldn't help laughing at the fact that she'd just hung up on him. He didn't find it very amusing and suddenly got this very hard look on his face--I told him to calm down and that I would explain it to her that it was I who had sent her the messages and not him.

The next call I make, a guy answers the phone (what is it with me and guys answering my calls all of a sudden) and I assumed he was her brother obviously so immediately hung up because that's a code that you don't break over here--never mess with a girl's brother, you'll be better off for it.

So my friend being him, picked up the phone and frantically started dialing the number again. I told him not to do it, that he would only complicate matters much more, but he wouldn't hear it. And so he called up and had a word with the guy, which didn't go to well either because the dude threatened to report him to the police and hung up.

This made my friend even more irate and he told me that he would kick his ass if he ever saw him again, and I told him not to go off the reservation just yet (Yeah, I like using Hollywood jargon when my life's earnings are at stake) and called up another friend of mine who had the number of the girl who was the only one that this particular girl was friends with in the class.

I think she was sleeping, because it took her awhile to understand what had happened, and I asked her just to make sure that her friend knew that I didn't mean any ill-will out of it. She said sure and hung up, but my friend was still readu to lose his shit, saying that it was about time he beat someone up and this and that and I told him to simmer down and not exacerbate the situation anymore since he was in no way involved in any of this and if I was ever called into question I would make sure of that.

We had to go for dinner that day to a couple of friends' house, and after lighting up I told them what happened, and for the life of them they couldn't understand why I had even bothered about the girl in the first place. I thought they were nuts if they couldn't see what I could, and the conversation sort of went back and forth like that for awhile with the three of them saying relax, not to worry about it too much, and that wait till I hit the production floor--I'd be making some gigantic size fuck ups if I kept going at this rate.

So, as of now--they've told me to put the girl completely out of my head, which I did as soon as I found out that the guy in question who had answered her cell phone was not her brother but her boyfriend in fact. This was sorta revealed to me indirectly by the friend of the girl who I'd called up to salvage the situation.

Surprise surprise, the girl who never went out anywhere and had no friends had a boyfriend and was nowhere close to as secluded as I thought she was. Or at least that's what I'm guessing. I just wish she'd told me that in the beginning instead of telling me that she had almost no one to talk to.

Anyways, like I said--the guys and girls in the class are ready to vouch for me, and I'm willing to put up a bit of a fight if anything does go down on Monday, which I'm 99% sure that it won't (since I doubt whether she'd be comfortable letting it be known that she was out with her boyfriend when all of this was unfolding) and so I think we both are just going to let the matter die down and not do anything about it hopefully.

I still kind of feel shitty for having bothered her like that, but it was an honest mistake and it wasn't as if I was doing it for fun or something. Hey, I thought I could cast away that evil spell and maybe we'd live happily ever after. The HR people are going to have a ball with this if it ever comes to the point that we have to go and see them and I have to explain my actions.

I actually know one of the ladies in HR to a certain extent and we have a nice rapport so I'll try and get this straightened out with her if and when the need arises, which I'm hoping it doesn't. I'll be calling up that girl today and finding out if her friend is okay with what happened or whether she really did take it to heart and feels the need to redress the situation, in which case I'm ready for her boyfriend to punch me in the mouth, or beg for his girl friend's forgiveness, whichever they would prefer.:)

Sigh, why do I get myself caught up in these messes, and then do the same thing all over again with someone else. *Rinse, wash, repeat*All girls are not my problem, and neither am I theirs.*Rinse, wash, repeat*

A couple of bad teeth and pimples on your face shouldn't be reason for anyone to cover their mouths when they need to laugh, or think that they don't look "pretty".

Hear hear, hadjiboy! The first time I met my now-husband, we met for coffee on my way through Des Moines (where he lived at the time). He kept his hand over his mouth because he has crooked front teeth that are also discolored (because of the medication his mother took while carrying him). I told him that I really wouldn't have noticed his teeth at all if he hadn't kept his hand in front of them, and as I sometimes had to resort to lipreading in crowds, I would love it if he didn't try to hide them. (Notice that I'm --well, rather blunt about things. It's just how I am). He quit hiding them.

I don't even notice his teeth now, because I see all of him, and he's a real cutie.

As for the "OMG is she going to think I'm harassing her?", I really feel for you. It's like there's this minefield of rules when dealing with women over there, and everytime you think you have it figured out, someone changes the rules. That has to be tough!

May I ask, hadjiboy, what age are you?

Please don't, pleeease don't!

And the reason why is because I've spent ten years of my life literally locked up in my room, without interacting with anyone, so you can take ten years off right there, plus, I'm kinda young for my age as it is.

So that's like 29-10=19, and 19-4 (at least)=15

Yup, sounds about right; I'm a 29 year old who's got a fucking 15 year old's mental and emotional capacity. Sucks, doesn't it?

Yes, it does suck, but it's something you can change, if you want to. All this phone business is very juvenile, and I can't imagine that it would appeal to a young woman, particularly a serious, marriage-minded Indian woman, who is in all likelihood looking for somewhat more mature behaviour in a potential husband.

I had to learn the rules of social behaviour in my 40s, due to my own past history. It's difficult, but the one thing that helped me a lot was not acting on my first impulse, which I had learned to my cost in the past could not be trusted to be the right one. That, and learning not to dig myself into a hole by my actions.

All that business with the texts - before you do something like that again think to yourself "is this cute? Or is it creepy?" I fully understand how this young woman was freaked out by these texts, which I know you thought were funny and cute.

I actually know one of the ladies in HR to a certain extent and we have a nice rapport so I'll try and get this straightened out with her if and when the need arises, which I'm hoping it doesn't. I'll be calling up that girl today and finding out if her friend is okay with what happened or whether she really did take it to heart and feels the need to redress the situation, in which case I'm ready for her boyfriend to punch me in the mouth, or beg for his girl friend's forgiveness, whichever they would prefer.:)

Oh dear, no, please don't do this. This is the hole-digging I was talking about. A simple apology, handwritten, to the girl, saying "I'm sorry if I offended you." is enough. Don't start involving other people in your self-made drama.

You know, if I were a woman, and if a guy were to have spoken to me the same way some of you seem to speak to me on occasion, he would've been considered to be a chauvinist of sorts.

"Self-made drama", okay, whatever you say:)

This doesn't mean I don't love you essexjan, because I do, in a bunnies sort of way;)

hey hadjiboy, you said it yourself:

Sigh, why do I get myself caught up in these messes, and then do the same thing all over again with someone else. *Rinse, wash, repeat*

That's self-made drama right there. Doesn't mean that I at least don't empathize - I've done it myself, back in the day. What it does mean though is that ITA with essexjan.

A simple apology, handwritten, to the girl, saying "I'm sorry if I offended you." is enough. Don't start involving other people in your self-made drama.

Agreed. If you feel you may have offended someone, go to them first.

You know, if I were a woman, and if a guy were to have spoken to me the same way some of you seem to speak to me on occasion, he would've been considered to be a chauvinist of sorts.

That utterly flummoxes me. That's the second time (that I know of) that you've been critical of people's extremely measured, thoughtful responses to the ongoing Hadjiboy Wants a Wife chronicles. Frankly, that strikes me as ungrateful.

You post here a lot about your pain, Hadjiboy. Lots of us do. This place is, in a sense, set up for that. But when you (or anyone else) repeatedly reports the same kind of pain, and the same kind of social dilemmas, and then you patly dismiss other people's advice as 'chauvinist'.... Well, you're either being incredibly obtuse, or tone deaf, or you're convinced that you are right in all of these actions, and everyone else is wrong.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I haven't given you any advice in any of these threads because there are people here who are much better at it. They're also a hell of a lot more patient than I am, because it seems to me that you're far past the point of actually wanting to hear what other people say (unless it's to tell you that yes, the world is treating you unfairly, and yes, it's okay to pursue these women as doggedly as you have been). So, like I said, no dog in this fight for me. But it angers me by proxy, I guess, that people try to give you good-faith help and encouragement, and you passive-aggressively accuse them of chauvinism. That's one quick way, it seems to me, to diminish your pool of potential advisors right into nonexistence.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. But seriously -- it's not cool.

You know, if I were a woman, and if a guy were to have spoken to me the same way some of you seem to speak to me on occasion, he would've been considered to be a chauvinist of sorts.

But hadji, you say yourself that you're "a 29 year old who's got a fucking 15 year old's mental and emotional capacity" and this kind of drama is really stupid to people who aren't 15. Jan has it right, and you could do well to at least listen to people you choose to tell your stories to who have lived and learned from the same bullshit drama-seeking. We have some wise people here, and sometimes you come across as very bristly-defensive in your responses to those who reply.

On preview: also what mudpuppie said.

Well I'll stay around hadji, fyi, ad nauseam if I've gotta! From personal experience I know that sometimes it takes years for good advice to sink in :)

You know, if I were a woman, and if a guy were to have spoken to me the same way some of you seem to speak to me on occasion, he would've been considered to be a chauvinist of sorts.

"Self-made drama", okay, whatever you say:)

I love you hadjiboy, but this is BS.

Also, if a guy said to me what essexjan said to you, it wouldn't cross my mind that it was chauvinist, even if I didn't agree with him.

hb, how are things done where you are? Arranged marriages or dating and love marriages? I think you said in a previous post that there isn't much mixing of the sexes, so is your only choice an arranged marriage? Is your family helping you out with this?

Listen, guys--I didn't expect you to understand what I was saying, but the fact that sometimes when I'm pouring my heart out in a thread and someone seems to trample all over it (even if it is on that rare occasion) hurts, especially when other people on this board have no problem in repeating their own personal problems without any of you jumping into the thread and lecturing them about how they're making up self-made drama. Well, except BtGoG, who I was really concerned about when she was posting about the trouble she was having with her job, but I would've never even thought of belittling it down to have it termed as "drama". Maybe you guys can.

Yeah, I did say that I feel like a 29 year old with a 15 year old's mental and emotional capacity, but it was more in a self-mocking sort of way: how many fifteen year olds do you know of who would stand up for a girl (even though she might be the reason for your termination) because you couldn't bear what the other guys were saying about her face. Juvenile... sometimes, but to accuse me of only that in a post and to not even acknowledge that I might've tried to do something good here is being a bit juvenile too I think.

People here give me good advice, but sometimes they're too quick to judge me in my personal life as far as pursuing a woman is concerned. You think it's easy being in today's world and NOT be affected by all the crap that goes on out there about how a guy should be, or what he should say, or the way he should act. You have no idea.

I don't want you guys to give me a hug everytime I post something here, but for god's sake please don't beat down on me.

DarkForest: If it were upto my folks, then yeah--they'd pretty much want to segregate me as much as they could from the opposite sex, but I've had to fight for the right to make my own choices in that matter, and finally my mother has realized that I'm going to have more of a say in these kinds of things. My dad on the other hand is perpetually stuck in the last century, and he's fine there, and so am I as long as I don't feel the need to yearn for his approval.

So I have a "limited" amount of freedom. But, what do you do with that kind of freedom--I can't go to the bars because I don't drink, and even if I did I wouldn't have been able to afford it. I can't risk asking someone out from work because that's a potential mine-field right there for all the reasons I've mentioned above. (And essexjan's idea about sending her a note saying how sorry I am is not the saving grace that everyone thinks it is: have you ever had one of those things rolled up into a ball and thrown into your face. Talk about juvenile.)

My only option is to take out a close friend of mine who's been very supportive of me in these kinds of situations to the movies and Subways and have a good time with her. (Lately, I've become more forthcoming so I want to see if there is anything there that might be more than friendship. Guys who've seen both of us together say that there is, but then who can judge the accuracy of guys in these kinds of matters, right.)

Anyway, I'm sorry for creating all this drama. I should probably keep my mouth shut from next time onwards and be grateful for getting the chance to post here in itself.

Thanks again.

Anyway, I'm sorry for creating all this drama. I should probably keep my mouth shut from next time onwards and be grateful for getting the chance to post here in itself.

Or am I being too passive-aggressive by saying that???

You think it's easy being in today's world and NOT be affected by all the crap that goes on out there about how a guy should be, or what he should say, or the way he should act. You have no idea.

We really do, actually, but you don't ever want to hear it. Like mudpuppie and others have said, I find it pretty rude that you blow off all the people here who try to help you. I, for one, am done taking part in your posts from this comment forward. It's just not worth the energy.

Oh my god how will I ever survive!!!!!1!!!

Pink, you've hardly been a "part" of my posts to begin with, in fact--I can count the times you've maybe responded to one of my threads on one hand. And that too in a very [I'm the PinkSuperHero] bristly kind of way. So, if you're done commenting then it's fine with me. Go ahead, save all the energy you can.

Like mudpuppie and others have said, I find it pretty rude that you blow off all the people here who try to help you.

I don't want to blow off people here who try to help me; I appreciate that they take the time out to do that, but it's when I think I might be subject to a different standard that I kind of have to think twice about things... how many times has mudpuppie posted about the rat infestation or mouse infestation at her place... I could just very well say to her--oh, for the love of god just get on with it will you!!!

Hey, she's creating all this drama all the time and it's something that I find pretty juvenile, so why not? Oh, wait--is it because you guys think it's not juvenile and I do. Well then perhaps I should get a handbook for everything that you find appropriate to reiterate on this site, and not to.

EJ's 'self-made drama' comment referred, I believe, to your interactions with this latest girl, not to the fact that you posted about it here .

And I've got to agree with her. You created a drama. And yeah, that story sounded like something from a US high school. Fine. Take your lumps, hear what others have to say, learn from it, move on.

You constantly remind us that in your culture, you've not been able to build the sorts of experiences that most of the rest of us had at a much earlier age. I don't think anyone is criticizing you for that, even if there is a certain element of misunderstanding. But that doesn't mean that people can't/shouldn't respond, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong. It's pretty much impossible for someone to *always* be misunderstood. After all, we're all human, and there's a lot that transcends our different cultures, countries, religions.

But dude. You've got to take a step back. There was the first girl in the states, the subject of this follow-up post, who ended up suddenly married before you could ever meet her. After you tell us how it ended with her, you move on to a 1,700 word account of how you text-pursued this new girl at your work. If there was so much hub-bub there that you seriously think you're going to lose your job -- yeah, that's drama. And my god -- now, in the same thread -- there's another girl that your friends could see you having a relationship with?

Why is it not okay for that to be pointed out? When you post about these things -- and no one has asked you not to -- you get really snippy and defensive when people react to your stories. I've got to say, if you don't want people to respond, don't post this stuff publicly. You don't hear what people are saying, which basically is:

YOU ARE TRYING TOO HARD. YOU ARE CREATING THIS DRAMA IN YOUR OWN LIFE. YOU ARE CREATING PAIN FOR YOURSELF. NO ONE HERE (OR THERE) IS CREATING IT FOR YOU. PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU FIND A WAY OUT.

And yet, you reject their advice. Consistently. And then you get defensive.

Again.

One last thing: I'll do you the favor of ignoring your labored attempt to compare this subject to my rodent infestation, because it's just entirely too ludicrous. It probably is, though, what made me respond (again).

You are mistakenly assuming that people here are making personal attacks against you. They aren't. I think this hypersensitivity is probably part of your larger unhappiness (or awkwardness, or whatever word fits best). It doesn't really do you any benefit to make it personal, either. So cut it with the defensive "but mudpuppie posted about rodents" bullshit.

I didn't know you had a degree in psychology pup... how much do I owe you for the session???

EJ's 'self-made drama' comment referred, I believe, to your interactions with this latest girl, not to the fact that you posted about it here .

What I said was that the fact that it was being termed as "drama" was belittling of someone else's feelings. And that just because you think that something is not proportional to the kind of response that the person is giving to it, is no reason for you to disregard it and then expect the other person to do it too.

And I've got to agree with her. You created a drama. And yeah, that story sounded like something from a US high school. Fine. Take your lumps, hear what others have to say, learn from it, move on.

You know, there's lots of stuff that you guys write about on this board which I find pretty dramatic too, but I at least have sense enough to know that I have no business in judging what others feel is personal to them or not. You seem to not understand that concept for some reason. Or maybe you do and you just feel that I should conform to what your idea of not being dramatic is.

But that doesn't mean that people can't/shouldn't respond, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong.

Of course not, but when you talk as if you know what I'm going through, then yeah--you're out of line, and it is wrong to judge people like that.

But dude. You've got to take a step back. There was the first girl in the states, the subject of this follow-up post, who ended up suddenly married before you could ever meet her. After you tell us how it ended with her, you move on to a 1,700 word account of how you text-pursued this new girl at your work. If there was so much hub-bub there that you seriously think you're going to lose your job -- yeah, that's drama. And my god -- now, in the same thread -- there's another girl that your friends could see you having a relationship with?

I haven't been following your love life so carefully but I do remember this girl you saw at a store once who you liked and wanted to take home or something. And then in a subsequent thread you were talking about how much she dislikes The Sopranos, or maybe likes it. And so on. I don't know if it's the same girl in both those scenarios, and the others that you've written about over the past few months, but if it is then congratulations on finding someone who you can have a good time with. Some of us aren't that lucky, and we try our best to not be in that situation. Yeah, sometimes we get desperate, but if you think you're helping by posting about how hard I have to try and find someone who I might have a chance with, then you're mistaken. Thanks for the effort though.

Why is it not okay for that to be pointed out? When you post about these things -- and no one has asked you not to -- you get really snippy and defensive when people react to your stories. I've got to say, if you don't want people to respond, don't post this stuff publicly.

Puppie, I didn't tell anyone not to respond to my posts, but the harshness with which some of you guys tend to react sometimes is what my beef is with. Again, you might not think it is, but I do. So, that's where we stand I guess.

You don't hear what people are saying, which basically is: YOU ARE TRYING TOO HARD. YOU ARE CREATING THIS DRAMA IN YOUR OWN LIFE. YOU ARE CREATING PAIN FOR YOURSELF. NO ONE HERE (OR THERE) IS CREATING IT FOR YOU. PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU FIND A WAY OUT.

"People are trying to help me find a way out", yes, by saying how juvenile I am and that I might have done the worst possible thing by trying to talk to that girl. Man, with good advice like that, it's no wonder I can't seem to move forward.

And yet, you reject their advice. Consistently. And then you get defensive.

Again.

Same as above.

One last thing: I'll do you the favor of ignoring your labored attempt to compare this subject to my rodent infestation, because it's just entirely too ludicrous. It probably is, though, what made me respond (again).

I'll do you one better, I won't even bother to call your attempt "labored" to try and call my attempt laboured. Good enough?

I think this hypersensitivity is probably part of your larger unhappiness (or awkwardness, or whatever word fits best). It doesn't really do you any benefit to make it personal, either. So cut it with the defensive "but mudpuppie posted about rodents" bullshit.

Thank you for the amusing analysis, but until you're licensed I'd rather not take your words at face value. And yeah--that rodent thing was pretty lame... you should've whacked that sucker when you had the chance. Or were you too scared, or too afraid to hurt one of god's creatures, or whatever. C'mon, that's so "U.S." of you.

hadjiboy, you may want to step back and look at your behaviour both in the incidents you have come here to talk about and in your responses to the ensuing threads.

I ain't no doctor or councilor but as a man who has done somethings the wrong way in his life I offer a bit of friendly advice you are of course free to ignore.

When you find yourself in conflict often, your fault or not, it may be time for a bit of self examination.

I really appreciate the way you've put that arsey, and I understand what you're trying to say, but I think that there are somethings which are so different in our two cultures that we may always be in conflict over it, and for anyone to expect me to try and suppress that urge to let out those feelings would be unfair.

I know love is something that is universal, but across continents there can be an unfathomable distance to cross in order to understand it. (There are rules here which can drive you up the walls sometimes.)

hadji, I won't for a moment pretend that I have any idea what it is to be a Muslim man living half a world away from me but I respectfully disagree with the statement "I know love is something that is universal, but across continents there can be an unfathomable distance to cross in order to understand it. (There are rules here which can drive you up the walls sometimes.)"

You have come here often, to write about misunderstandings with women from your own culture and religion. I may not understand where you come from but I have to think they do. This is why I say you may need to really look inside yourself to see what it is that causes these conflicts or draws you toward them.

As for conflicts here, you are telling us you had a bad experience with something, you ask questions about the situation, so don't be surprised when people offer advice.

You may not like said advice but you asked for it and if you take some time to really mull it over you may find some wisdom in it, cross-cultural or not.

I come here not to ask for advice, but just as a place where I can vent. I feel that there's a lot of leeway given to others in that regard with what they need to get off their chest, and whenever I try and talk about what's happening with me there are people who want to start criticizing me (in the form of giving advice, which doesn't really work, at least not for me), and that's where the conflict lies. Cross-cultural or not--I agree.

hadjiboy, here's how it is:

1. You are impulsive. You do things without thinking them through, on too little information, or information that is nothing more than fantasy on your part.

2. In your fantasy thinking you assign parts to the players (usually you and a woman) with no regard to reality... you pick and choose the bits that fit your storyline, and ignore the rest. Where real life doesn't coincide with your imaginary tale, you try to force fit it by willfully misinterpreting the real information you do have, and making up the information you don't have. Thus, when you are interacting with these women, you are not really dealing with them as the individuals they are, but with a story character version of them you've imagined.

3. You are impatient. You want to go from zero to 90 immediately. One day the woman in question is someone you've just met on the internet, or a shy girl at work, and the next day it's a passionate romance leading to marriage.

4. You are stubborn. If anyone points out that you are moving too fast, or that the object of your fantasy might not be what you think they are, you refuse to listen, and believe that your deeper, more noble nature allows you to see or understand things that other people just can't recognize.

This combination is dangerous for you, and potentially dangerous for other people who may become drawn into the story - and this is very, very, screamingly, neon-bright obvious to the people who are giving you advice here. So they try to warn you. They try to frame things in a way that forces you to break out of your magical thinking. For your own sake.

The reason you don't get unconditional support for the some of your romantic predicaments is that it would be Very Very Bad Advice.

People don't line up here to take potshots at hadjiboy. They take some time out to try to help you avoid disaster and guide you in the right direction, because people here are nice that way. If it seems to you that the folks responding to you are cruel cynics who gain some kind of enjoyment from trampling all over your heart, while offering support and sympathy to everyone else ... could it be that this is another story you've concocted, and not the reality? Seriously, you need to use your brain; acting and responding to everything at the whim of emotion is a bad thing that will cause you problems all your life.

This means step away from things, cool down and apply some rational thought before leaping into action or picking fights. Think. Think. Think.

Finally, it's completely not cool to try to defend yourself by being nasty about what other people have posted about. Not. Don't do that.

taz, where exactly was I being nasty about what other people have posted?

Yeah, I am impulsive, and I have this larger than life need to be fantastical, and I am extremely impatient, but the point here is the way that some people try and communicate that to me. I don't think I'm being stubborn by expecting them not to be as judgemental as they are.

And by the way, the girls who I am interested in are interested in me too, and I don't want to think that I'm just going to see this girl for a couple of days/weeks/months and then dump her or whatever and then move onto the next one. If there's a chance--I would definitely want to marry her. And I don't even let that out (except in the case of Khadija, because we had both signed onto that board for marriage purposes). The problem with the current girl is that at first she said she didn't have any friends and that she hadn't been out anywhere ever since she'd moved into town, which made me empathize with her and ask her out, which she agreed to and then later recanted, which was okay, but then I was stupid enough to think that the SMS shit would not be as traumatic for her as it turned out to be (I spoke to her friend and even though she was regrettably hurt she's thankfully going to forgive me it seems).

hadjiboy, for someone who is so quick to get his back up at every perceived slight here, you're pretty quick to make accusations at others. Those others have spent considerable time trying to help you in the past (much more that I would have, to be honest) and it's pretty unreasonable of you to snap at them because you don't like their answers to your questions. If you aren't prepared to face the answers, don't ask the questions! Surely you can see the broken record quality of what you put up here? The same thing repeats over and over again - look back on what you have written the past six months or so and you can't fail to see the patter.

God help you if this is the way you act in real life - you need to calm down a bit and stop assuming that everyone is attacking you all the time. And, yeah, childish little pot-shots at others is absolutely not the way to get help from people. Not here and not in the real world.

I must say that I'm amazed you are 29 - I would never have picked that, not in a million years. I would have thought you were about 17. If you've been through some tough stuff that's held you back emotionally, I'm sorry. But you need to work that stuff out and not use it as an excuse to textually attack people who have been friendly to you.

Chill out, dude.

Dude, when did I ever ask for anyone's advice in this thread--could you please point that out to me. The most I did was express my opinions and ranted a bit. It's the judgemental attitude of some people here that kind of got me irked.

Surprisingly, I have no problem relating this stuff to people off line; they seem much more receptive to it... the only reason why I come here is to share the kind of stuff that I have to go through because all of you do the same. I just think it's unfair that when I can be understanding and not accuse anyone of being childish or whatever in the kinds of turmoils that they have to face in daily life, why can't I be extended the same courtesy?

And no offense, but you've got to chill out too, dg.

You're right, hadjiboy. The problem comes in comparisons. If you start comparing the way folks treat you to the way they treat one another here, then you'll always find a bone to pick. Likewise, if they start comparing your stories to their own, they'll find something to criticize. They don't understand you. Nobody really understands anyone else. The failure lies in not recognizing this, and people start giving advice based on a pretense of universality. Most of that is knowing that there are many like-minded people around and that gives them a safe palisade from which to help you, where they can feel like you're rejecting such fine criticisms-as-suggestions as they lob down at you.

So what if you're prickly when people talk shit to you online? It's a sign of character to be mad when people condescend to you. They latch on to something you say, "Oooh, but he made fun of his own mental age, so I can base my criticisms of him on that." Only safe snark is allowed here; it's funny to see what snark, directed at whom, passes. By funny I mean delightfully hypocritical and, yes, depressing.

The things you post interest me, hadjiboy, and I read them carefully. I usually don't have an answer to write, because you're publicizing something that's essentially private and there's always much more to the story than shows at face value.

You like to write about yourself, which is good. I like to read about you. Other people like to write about themselves, too; it sure sucks when they think they're writing about you.

Chalk it up to societal differences if you want, but that's only part of the story. Personality differences? Same thing. This too will pass, and the frankly unacceptable judgments people impose on you will show their true value as they disappear into the years.

Everyone's wrong but you, eh hadjiboy?

You didn't ask for advice and you just wanted a rant, and then everyone crashed your thread and shat all over you and judged you and they wanted to make you feel bad, is that it? And you're the only person on MetaChat people do this to, yes?

Man.

Listen: you don't want to hear what people have to say unless they agree with you. You have made that abundantly clear by jumping down the throat of anyone who makes an observation about your situation or your behaviour. But no one is out to get you. People who comment in your thread want to help you.

And you've had this pointed out to you many, many times. And every time, you've made an excuse or a snotty comment if someone says something that's not in full support of your behaviour/situation.

You remind me of an ex-boyfriend of mine. We once had a rather heated discussion in which there wasn't any real communication happening because all he was interested in doing was making sure I knew he was right. Exasperated, I yelled: "Jesus, you're so defensive!"

"No I'm NOT!" he screamed.

I'll offer you some un-asked for advice: listen to what the people of MetaChat have to say to you; they frequently have very, very good advice. The people who take the time to comment are doing so because they want to help you. And if you don't believe that, well, I think you're going to continue to feel lonely and misunderstood.

the only reason why I come here is to share the kind of stuff that I have to go through because all of you do the same

Is this true, do you think?

Since you want to vent but don't want advice, I strongly suggest that you get a blog and don't allow comments, or start a journal.

It's the "kind" of advice I'm talking about here amro, which I sometimes think is unwarranted. I have a blog that I started, and I'd love to develop it too, but I wouldn't want to leave Mecha just because I feel slighted.

Specklet, I think you should read what Hugh Janus said--he makes much more sense than you do. Or me perhaps.

Thanks Hugh.

So basically, you only want advice that supports your position.

Dude, when did I ever ask for anyone's advice in this thread--could you please point that out to me.

OK.

Sigh, why do I get myself caught up in these messes, and then do the same thing all over again with someone else.

Though when you read things like

I'll be calling up that girl today and finding out if her friend is okay with what happened

it's just instinct to yell No! No! Don't do it! In the same way you want to warn someone about to put sugar in his gas tank or something else you know will have disasterous consequences.

I really do like you, hadjiboy, and you add a lot to this forum. But you are seeing older and wiser heads as enemies (Seriously- essexjan is NOT out to beat you down. Really.) instead of as the concerned friends they really are. If you disagree with their advice... well, god knows there is some bad advice that gets tossed around on metachat. But when advice is nigh on unanimous, it's time to reconsider your own slant.

Which reminds me of a joke: (wherein s_r proceeds to wedge foot more firmly in mouth)

A man's wife calls him on his cell phone to say, "Honey, be careful! I just heard there's a car going the wrong way on the 580 Interstate!"

The man replies, "Sweetie, it's not just one car- it's hundreds of them!"

I was going to leave this alone, but since hadjiboy brought it up.

Likewise, if they start comparing your stories to their own, they'll find something to criticize. They don't understand you.

Dude, what? No. I read hadjiboy's story. I understand hadjiboy. I was hadjiboy once. I still am, at the bottom of my drama-loving heart.

They latch on to something you say, "Oooh, but he made fun of his own mental age, so I can base my criticisms of him on that." Only safe snark is allowed here; it's funny to see what snark, directed at whom, passes. By funny I mean delightfully hypocritical and, yes, depressing.

So I think that maybe, perhaps, your projecting some of your own experience here on Metachat onto this situation. Which is just an observation on my part, not a criticism, since you may not be familiar with the whole history of some of the stuff in this post. A lot of the actual, direct criticism of hadjiboy from other commenters is based on a bunch of past threads I can dredge up, if you'd like. It's very, very unfair to most of the people here, including to hadjiboy, to read the comments in this thread out of context.

The things you post interest me, hadjiboy, and I read them carefully.

I agree. hadjiboy is a very engaging writer. His cultural experience is different from my own. I value that.

it sure sucks when they think they're writing about you.

Again, an entirely unfair characterization, I think. Of course we view other people's writings through the framework of our own life experiences. Just as hadjiboy reads our comments and interprets them according to his own framework. And you read everyone else's comments and respond based on your framework. I don't get what's so offensive about this fact.

out of curiosity, hadjiboy, did you post anywhere here why/how you were in your room for ten years?

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to not give advice. Sometimes the people who need it most are the last to accept it. Sometimes the people who we feel most compelled to advise are just proxies for ourselves; we put ourselves in other people's shoes because we're compassionate (for altruistic or selfish reasons) but we find those things about their shoes that fit, and ignore the parts that don't. Sometimes the shoes don't fit.

Sometimes advice doesn't fit. Sometimes it isn't wanted. Sometimes it's appreciated. Sometimes people just want a conversation, and expect a back-and-forth: advice, explanation, reiteration, more explanation, maybe something defensive, maybe some exculpation of sorts; everyone's different.

And that's the point. Everyone's different. Some people get really mad if they're having a recreational trash-talking session and they include you and you're put off. Can't you take a joke? Some people criticize themselves so much, and wrap themselves so deeply in what they present to the world, that slight criticisms feel like deep insults or blase dismissals. Some people love having a shoulder to cry on. Some fear pity.

Sometimes you try to help someone and it hurts them to be helped. They don't know why, and you try to figure it out, but that's just you figuring, which has nothing to do with the reality of the person you're helping/hurting.

So you get fed up with trying to help them and having them reject your help. You're wasting your anger. You feel mad because they're still deeply embroiled in a conversation in which you have no idea whether or not you just played a part. That's your bruised ego talking; it hurts to have your help rejected.

Telling others how to live their lives is a lot easier than figuring out how to live our own. Nothing wrong with that; most people spend half their talking hours saying things about themselves, and the other half saying things about others. Everyone's different, though.

Some people wear their hearts on their sleeves. Some are closed books. Some people want advice. Some people want to give advice. Some people see need where there is none. Some people understand insecurity to be debilitating. Some understand it to be realistic or even healthy.

There are so many degrees of all these things; it's confusing, but that's life. Nobody likes being ignored, and nobody likes having words put in their mouths. Too bad those are among the easiest choices we have.

Yeah, of course I'm projecting my own experiences into what I say. So are we all. And no, I'm not taking this stuff out of context, though my context and your context, even if they happen to be based on the same things, are completely different.

I didn't say things were "offensive," I said they "sucked." That's an internal judgment referring to the hurt we feel when we are misinterpreted, or when words are put in our mouths, or when things just don't go as we expect.

Sure, it sounds like I'm coming down hard on other people here, and maybe I am. Maybe I have something deep within my framework that thrusts me into the fray when I see someone kicked when they're down. It may be easy to pretend I'm ignorant of circumstances or that I'm just being my usual overwrought self. It may be valid to do so. I don't know, because I don't know you. Nor do I understand you. Nobody really understands anyone else. Maybe some people know where other people are coming from, but understanding? How do you, through conversation, understand someone who doesn't understand themselves? Presumption.

Defining other people to their faces is tricky, and often offensive, especially if they've made noises to the effect that they don't want to be defined. Sometimes it feels like public humiliation.

It's a losing proposition all around. But before you get all mad because I'm so disagreeable, realize that I'm misunderstanding you.

I've just caught up with this after a long day's travelling and acclimatising myself to being home again. All I can say is that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting that this time, this time, the outcome will be different.

Just to clarify, I don't see "drama" as a perjorative term. For just one example, what desjardins is dealing with certainly qualifies. Drama happens.

With a few, often regrettable exceptions, to which my fellow metachatzens have been witnesses, I try to avoid drama as much as humanly possible because I know I'm going to end up with a full quota of it anyway.

Hugh Janus, you might be over estimated the amount of emotional investment some of us have in this. Then again, you might not. At any rate, I'm not mad about anything, but there's some part of me that just hates to see hadjiboy beat himself up against the same wall over and over again. I know it's his perogative but really, he's an awesome guy, and I've become attached to him. Yes, it probably comes across as condescending sometimes, but it's only meant in the pats-between-the-bunny-ears kind of way.

Some people tend to overthink things. That includes me, and probably you too.

As far as I can tell, no one here is mad. No one here is particularly hurt. It's all just words, Hugh. You recognize that. Or am I presuming again?

Your subtle and loopy self referential piss takings are works of art that always crack me up Hugh.

To clarify myself somewhat, I also enjoy reading what you write, hadjiboy and rarely join in to any great degree because, by the time I get to "your" threads, it's usually all been pretty much said. I am interested to hear how people in different cultures live and what makes their lives what they are. Like many, I can't help but chime in when I have an opinion and, on many occasions, I'm sure my opinion is wrong and/or inappropriate. But that's how we learn as humans - we interact with one another and make judgements on what comes of that interaction, then use those judgements to move forward in our lives.

As much as possible, we try to avoid doing the same things over and over again when it is clearly going to lead to pain. Perhaps you need to do more of this before you realise that what you are doing with regard to your (seeming) desperate desire to find love is hurting you and destroying any chance you have of finding that love, which is what people are trying to tell you, in their own ways. Biting the hand that feeds you is a well-know path to starvation, which is what you started doing earlier in this thread.

If you don't want advice or discourse here, then post your rants to your own space where you can control who can speak back to you. If you post anything here, it immediately becomes public^* property and, as you no longer own it, you can't cry when people do things with it that you didn't want or expect.

You have friends here. Don't piss them off so much that they turn their back on you completely.

^*yeah, I know, copryright, blah blah blah. That's not what I mean and you know it.

Well, Hugh (... and hadjiboy, though I think hadjiboy already mostly knows this), the thing with Khadija, for example - or generally the matrimony sites: I was worried about a few things on behalf of hadjiboy. I was worried about the possibility that he might connect with someone and be pressured by them/their family into a marriage before really getting to know them.

I was even more worried that there might people trying to take advantage... like leading him on and giving him hope for something with the intention of extracting money for various things (the usual scam behavior), and then dropping him as soon as they could ascertain for sure that he didn't have any money they could finagle out of him.

I was even worried that he might meet someone a lot like him, inexperienced and naive, and in love with the idea of love more than the reality of a specific person, and that unless they took it slowly they might each find themselves tethered to someone who didn't actually suit them at all. For the rest of their lives.

I've urged hadjiboy here and privately to meet and get to know someone before declaring love and plunging into plans for marriage, to find and spend time with women he likes, and see how things progress. Slowly. Over time.

I still think this is very good advice, and I still have the same sorts of fears for him. I would be surprised at myself if voicing those concerns for him were really me simply trying to put him down to make myself feel better about my own failings. Naturally, like almost everyone, I do have my weird little eccentricities and ways to sabotage myself. Not with romance and partnership, though, so if I am just being mean to hadjiboy it isn't about projection that way.

At any rate, I do finally see that these cautionary comments aren't helping and might actually be harming, and that's really not something I want at all, so I'll chill with the advice. I think most other people here will, as well - but, hadjiboy, there will be other people who aren't aware of the past threads who will probably respond to your posts and give advice if it seems to them like you are looking for or need that, so, as I've warned you before, if you are going to post about personal things you need to be prepared for the possibility that some of the people participating in the discussion might say things that you don't like, and it will upset you because it's a matter you're sensitive about - so it's probably best to be careful with what you share.