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27 June 2008

So, about Catholic baptism... (lots of rambly thoughts about our future spawn inside).→[More:]mr. gaspode and I have been talking about whether we will get our kiddo baptised. This might seem weird coming from two atheists (or if we are going to parse things down, then mr. gaspode is more of a strong atheist while I am more of a weak one) but we have a fair bit of family stuff going on with the whole religion thing. We were both brought up Catholic, are the only non-practising Catholics in either of our extended families, and heh, already upset his mother quite a bit by not getting married in a church. It's mr. gaspode's family that we are really considering here, because my mother doesn't care either way about my religious beliefs, despite being a believer herself.

Now to be clear, our discussions are *not* about any family pressure to baptise the kiddo. It's not been mentioned and won't be. And there will be no guilt, no subtle pressure to do what they want. mr. gaspode's family are genuinely very nice, good, caring people. That said, I know for sure that his parents (particularly his mother) will be absolutely, genuinely, worried about their grandchild if she isn't baptised. She will be tainted with Original Sin, not able to be saved and all that. So that leads me to think "what's the big deal, we'll just get the kiddo baptised". I don't have a problem with it because I don't believe in it, or any other religious tradition. I might as well be dedicating her to the Magic Cheese Fairy for all I care. It's kind of irrelevant to me. But therein kind of lies the problem. I have no interest in being disrespectful to my in-laws' beliefs and to the priest and all that. OK, so in my heart of hearts I can't take it seriously, but I'm not going to repeat the bit about the magical cheese fairy to mr. gaspode's mom. Or her priest. And I don't want to be hypocritical: I'm not going to promise to raise her in a religion in which I don't believe. (Godparents are the solution to overcoming this, perhaps? Do the actual parents have to promise anything? I don't remember!) All of this said, we are open to our kid getting some (any denomination) religious instruction throughout the years just because it's my personal opinion that it's good to be exposed to how other people think. And atheists are well in the minority in this country.

See, I told you it was rambly. I guess my main question is what would you do in this situation? I don't want to offend people, but by the same token I'm not going to lie to a priest when they are all like, "are you going to bring her up in the Catholic tradition?" If we were sure that my parents-in-law just wouldn't care, then we wouldn't bother, but we know this not to be the case. I thought about maybe making an appointment with a priest of our local parish just to talk about this. Good idea? No? And I'm aware that different parishes might have different takes on it, too. Blah.

post by: gaspode at: 10:37 | 27 comments

My dad's family is French Canadian, and "Catholic when you're born, Catholic when you die, what you do in the middle is your business" is a way of life in the family. (Except that one aunt actually got buried as a Mormon -- guess she didn't get the memo.) So there's precedent for what you're doing in my family.

I don't know what I would do, because I've always been more deliberate about religion. I was deliberate enough to leave the Roman Catholic Church and become an Episcopalian ("Catholic Lite! All the ritual, 1/3 the guilt!") because I couldn't get behind the infallibility of the Pope. I spent some time as a Quaker before that, and I'm still somewhat influenced by the strains of buried Native American spirituality in my family and Buddhism in my husband's beliefs. (And the Episcopals seem okay with both, so I'm still there).

There are other religions that might be more amenable to your openness than, say, the Roman Catholic Church.

posted by lleachie 27 June | 10:44

I kinda look at it like taking off your shoes when you go into someone's house if that's what they do, just manners, doesn't hurt you, makes them happy, rock on. I also wouldn't lie to a priest though, so you might have to find one with a don't ask/don't tell policy, they vary, I've heard.

posted by Divine_Wino 27 June | 10:46

Is it something you can talk to your in-laws about? Maybe they have some ideas or concerns that you haven't considered? (Or take them to go talk to the priest with you?)

I have also known some absolutely lovely, open-minded, and analytical Episcopal priests, so if you have any of those lying about, I echo lleachie's suggestion to talk to those folks. :-)

posted by occhiblu 27 June | 10:51

I've thought about this question a little, because I go to a church (ELCA) that practices infant baptism and I don't believe in it. I've discussed it with my pastors, who I am close to and who I respect, and they explained it to me pretty well, but I just can't get on board with the idea quite yet. I was raised in Baptist churches, and I remember deciding to be baptized when I was 10 and it was an important moment in my life. So I don't think I could have my infants baptized, even if I was still going to a church where they did it. And that might freak out some people at my church (which is so much easier than freaking out family, of course). I'm trying to dig up the liturgy we use when we baptize babies, but am having no luck- I think the parents do promise something along the lines of raising the baby in the faith.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 27 June | 11:08

My ex husband's family made SURE that my daughter was baptized Catholic. They made a big old fuss about it but I didn't care much one way or the other. I think all I had to do was promise not to stand in the way of her going all Catholic, which, despite heavy proselytizing from said family and an entertaining interlude in the Catholic Youth League softball in Baltimore, complete with teen dances with ruler carrying priests forcing the kids apart, she hasn't been much interested in anyway. My son was never baptized and it is true that he is more devilish, so perhaps baptism is a good thing. I sort of view it like the fairy godmother stories: no need to offend anyone with potential gifts or curses to bestow. Hey, I'm a baptized Catholic myself, although it doesn't seem to have done much that I can tell. My younger brother never got baptized (my parents were fed up with the church by the late 60s) so my friends and I used to baptize him all the time - just in case - and it was fun to pour water on his head and act all holy.

Anyway. I think a lot of people do it just for the ceremony - it is nice, kind of welcoming the baby and all that - and to keep the families happy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. However, you're going to have to find a really liberal priest to go along with this, or lie and yeah, lying to a priest just feels wrong somehow. The Episcopalians are more openminded overall but you're in NYC - there have got to be liberal Catholic priests there as well.

And you know, raising the baby Catholic can mean so many things, from Fishstick Fridays to an appreciation for artists from Caravaggio to Flannery O'Connor to a pathological fear of nuns (easily installed by right thinking parents!) so you wouldn't actually be lying per se if you said you were totally raising her Catholic. Culturally Catholic, anyway.

posted by mygothlaundry 27 June | 11:17

My parents were in a situation similar to yours, and they chose not to baptize me. But that didn't stop my Catholic grandmother from secretly teaching me various prayers and gestures to save my innocent soul, which I had to perform when I was sleeping over her house, or from proselytizing to me and praying for me. I know she had my best interests at heart, but even from a young age I knew my parents wouldn't find this cool, so I didn't tell them.

I suppose what I'm saying is this: even if you don't baptize the child, it's okay; the in-laws will find a way.

posted by Miko 27 June | 11:18

I've always thought that I would probably have my (imaginary) kid baptized in the prevailing tradition - especially if they are raised in a mostly homogeneous situation, faith-wise - because kids can sometimes freak out about stuff like that... they might be seven years old, and all omg! I'm going to hell!!!! and stuff. If they aren't interested, they aren't interested, and no harm done. If they reject it, that's perfectly fine, obviously - and they weren't responsible for being baptized as an infant... so still, no harm, no foul. On the other hand, if they get into a little-kid religion thing, which often happens, they might be very concerned about it, and it could turn into some big deal for them.

But a lot of that comes from living in a place where 98% if the people are the same religion, and everyone is baptized, married, and buried in the church, whatever they do with the rest of their lives. I wouldn't want my kid to feel like the only lost soul on the schoolyard, so to speak, if it ever were to occur to them. But like you, I wouldn't want to lie. If it ever had come up, I bet the/some priest would have figured out a way to make it work, to get past the fact that I'm a crazy foreigner and just carry on with business as usual.

So, in a nutshell, I say plead the crazy foreigner defense... it's worked for us on many items, on both sides of the Atlantic!

posted by taz 27 June | 11:23

Culturally Catholic

Ha! Awesome.

posted by Miko 27 June | 11:24

if they get into a little-kid religion thing, which often happens, they might be very concerned about it, and it could turn into some big deal for them

That was my situation, and it turned out to be a good thing. A neighbor kid told me I was going to hell when I was about eight, and I brought the concern to my parents, who took the opportunity to have an excellent and wide-open conversation about religion with me. From that point I started exploring religion, attending Bible school and going to different churches. The road I started on then ended up giving me a really diverse and wide-ranging religious education, which to me, was much better than being raised in a tradition.

It's weird for kids either way. If they reject a tradition, they go through guilt for their families and fright for themselves. If they don't have a tradition, they go through curiosty and fright for themselves.

Everybody in this lifetime has to wrestle with questions of religion, and it does start in childhood, no matter what you tell 'em (or don't) about religion. I don't think it's a question you can protect kids from - they talk to one another about God stuff, and all the different adults and institutions in their lives do, too. I'm not sure anything other than straight talk about where the family stands on the questions really makes sense to any kids. And then they go their own way anyway.

posted by Miko 27 June | 11:29

I'm agnostic and if I somehow had a kid (it'd have to be by parthogenesis as the mister was fixed long ago) I wouldn't get the kid baptized no matter what kind of pressure the families put on me. Participating in a religion is a personal choice and one I'm not willing to make for an infant.

Funny anecdote: although my family is Episcopalian I was baptized in a Catholic church. My mum and grandmother were friends with a Catholic priest and had him do it. I should ask for more details.

posted by deborah 27 June | 11:33

If my experience going through the baptism process with our son has shown me anything, you personally probably couldn't get your kid baptised in most catholic churches if you wanted to. The baptism is just as much about saying "I'll raise this kid Catholic" as it is about "saving the kid's soul" or anything like that.

We had problems finding godparents that were suitable enough (not very many practicing catholic younger people in our family).

In Catholicism, there is a point where the kid gets to decide for themselves, that being Confirmation.

posted by drezdn 27 June | 11:39

Me and my siblings were baptized, because the rest of my Dad's siblings were Catholic, and because otherwise we couldn't get into the Catholic schools. Like drezdn says, you don't just "get baptized", you "get religion". There are classes for you and the godparents, and then there may be a single family celebration, or you might get shunted into the "mass baptism mass" that happens once a year on either Easter or Palm Sunday (memory is fuzzy).

The Catholic church recognizes any baptism done in the Trinitarian way (you know, Dad-Son-Spook) so maybe you could find another denomination? They may have similar deals where you need godparents and such, but it's worth looking into.

My own kids go with me to my Methodist church, but they haven't been baptized. I figure that's up to them. My parents are more concerned that I'm taking them at all (oh noes! Xtian xooties!)

My sister married a Jewish man, and there was tremendous family pressure have a bris for her son. She ended up doing it, because there would have been no end of trouble for her. YMMV.

p.s. - you can find technical answers here

posted by lysdexic 27 June | 11:54

So you guys are awesome - you're reiterating a lot of what I've been thinking, and helping me clarify it in my mind.

I know that we are not going to get any family pressure to do it. It's more of the "no skin off my nose, so why not? oh! except for the whole lying and hypocrisy bit" aspect of it. And I know that it's confirmation that's the final decider, having been confirmed myself (Catholic school through age 16, yo). I think we'll end up just talking with the parents about it. Maybe they can talk with their priest as well about What To Do with their grandchild who is growing up with godless heathens.

Like I said, we really have no problem with her getting some religious instruction sometime in the future either, so if it's something her grandparents want to get into, more power to them. (Again, they are not the type of people, and don't go to the type of church, that is all like "your parents are going to hell" - they are liberal Catholics who are focused on poverty and you know, helping people and suchlike, and not so much on the hating on other people. If I were a believer I would be proud to worship with them)

posted by gaspode 27 June | 11:54

Well, this one isn't terribly concise, but it has some information links:

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3689497&postcount=2

posted by lysdexic 27 June | 11:56

I have a bit of an odd godparent situation to share.

A colleague of mine was married and had a child in Warsaw, but the child was born two months prematurely and while both parents weren't Catholic per se, they were both various flavors of Christianity (Anglican and Russian Orthodox!), priests of which weren't available to do a baptism in Warsaw on short notice. There was a real risk that the child would die, so he was baptized by a local Catholic priest in his incubator, without godparents. There just wasn't any time.

Fast-forward six years, and the family, now happy and healthy, is now living in Latvia - also not a very Catholic place. But, lo!, into my colleague's family's life walks me (a 25-year-old atheist-but-raised-Catholic gay American) and another colleague (an agnostic-but-raised-Catholic 37-year-old Italian-British woman).

We were asked to become our godson's godparents, and we both accepted. I think we were asked not because we were especially religious (though we did buy him a cool silver cross, and explained to him that the cross was something that reminds you to treat others with love and respect), but because she and I had become an English-speaking "aunt" and "uncle" to him. He's a load of fun and even though we're now hundreds or thousands of miles away, he knows that there are two other adults in his life who love and care about him. I just sent him a book last week, actually, and he and his dad sent me some photos a few weeks before that.

The other nice thing about being godparents is that we treat him like an equal, because we don't really need to discipline him or anything like that. We can have conversations about Legos and scones and dinosaurs and it's super. It's a unique thing in my life, and he's a pretty fragile little guy, but even with its religious overtones, I'm happy the relationship has a formal, societally-legitimate name.

Good luck making this decision! And remember that godparents are also usually happy to babysit!

posted by mdonley 27 June | 12:23

Aw, wow. My godparents were an uncle on my mom's side and an aunt/cousin on my dad's side. Political choices, as it were.

Maybe if you've got cool buds y'all could do that, gaspode.

posted by lysdexic 27 June | 12:27

One other thing, if your little gal ends up wanting to get married in a church when he's older, it really helps if she's already baptized even if she isn't a believer - you've got the paperwork covered. (and it only really works if it's a mainline denomination of course, but my brother the atheist was able to get a free marriage ceremony out of this).

And, in the liturgy, you will have to pledge to raise the kid in the Church and faith in Jesus, etc etc. But the Catholic church in America is rather different compared to other Catholic churches, especially in New York. You would be able to find a priest who wouldn't mind that you weren't planning on raising the baby religiously. Baptisms are not only religious moments but also cultural and social events. And they're a good excuse to throw a party and invite all your friends.

posted by stynxno 27 June | 12:37

We didn't have either of our children christened and I know it really bothered my in-laws. But I really felt that it would be opening the door to something I didn't want to deal with. We already get enough pressure, I didn't want to hear "but you PROMISED that you would raise them in the church!" Plus, there's the whole added pressure of the necessary party and the gifts that you'll get whether you want them or not. I would have felt like a scammer taking all that stuff under false pretenses. Like Deborah and TPS, I feel like that's a decision they can make for themselves when they are older. (Same reason why my son is uncircumcised and my daughter's ears aren't pierced. Any parenting decision I can pawn off on them, I will.)

posted by jrossi4r 27 June | 14:25

And I asked my dad once why he didn't have any of his kids baptized. He told me any god that would condemn a baby just because its parents didn't give it a holy sprinkle was not a god he was interested in following.

I love that cranky old man.

posted by jrossi4r 27 June | 14:30

Let the kid decide. You can always convert.

posted by Eideteker 27 June | 14:34

I see nothing wrong with exposure to religion. I sent both of my kids to a Presbyterian preschool for two years each.

I was baptized by a Catholic priest as an infant. My mother was raised Catholic and married my father, who is not Catholic. As a child, we didn't attend Catholic church, we went to a non-denominational Christian church.

I would not baptize my children. There is no expectation or pressure since both my in-laws and my parents are not religious in the least. (My husband never attended a day of church in his life. My father was never a believer and never went to church with us. We stopped going to church when I was around 11 or so.)

I don't think anything is wrong with baptizing your baby. I personally wouldn't do it. Especially if I weren't being pressured. I might do it to appease.

I think a better question would be why would you not baptize your child. I wouldn't do it because I have no intention of attending church with my kids. My husband and I have no religious faith. I'm not worried they will be denied heaven because I don't believe in heaven.

Maybe I'm a hypocrite because I don't mind them going to Presbyterian preschool and praying before they eat their lunch and learning bible verses. I see nothing wrong with this. I kind of welcome it. It's very low-key and nice. I probably am comfortable with it because it's how I was raised as a young child. I have no negative memories of church, only positive ones Maybe you'll send your child to Catholic private schools. It's always a bonus to be baptized Catholic because you get the better rate than non-Catholics. At least in my neck of the woods.

I do understand why you might want to do it. It seems like you really love your in-laws. It would probably be important and meaningful to them to see their grandchild baptized. A baby is a little miracle. ;-) Like Mgl said, it's a nice opportunity for the family to come together.

I'm rambling too, but I'd say go with your gut feeling on this. Do what you and your husband feel comfortable with.

posted by LoriFLA 27 June | 15:06

We told the family that if they wanted our son baptized, they could do it themselves since we could really use a weekend to ourselves. Never heard another word about it.

posted by Ardiril 27 June | 15:34

BtW, I would just like to go on record in this thread as pro-rambling.

posted by Eideteker 27 June | 15:54

A neighbor kid told me I was going to hell when I was about eight, and I brought the concern to my parents, who took the opportunity to have an excellent and wide-open conversation about religion with me.

Same thing happened to me, only I think I was five or six. I suspect it happens to every kid with religious friends; as long as your parents can handle it with aplomb, it's no big deal.

posted by tangerine 27 June | 17:09

And there will be no guilt

...Are you sure you guys/your families are Catholic?

I guess my main question is what would you do in this situation? I don't want to offend people, but by the same token I'm not going to lie to a priest when they are all like, "are you going to bring her up in the Catholic tradition?"

I'd get it done, if only to avoid a lot of drama for the rest of my life. Please, do not worry about "lying" to the priest. I know a *ton* of fellow Catholics who have been in a church maybe three times, but still got their confirmations (now THAT is hypocritical... you pretty much "confirm" your faith in order to be able to stop going to church and just get married in a church if you want to.)

Not a big deal. Do it if you really think that in the long run it'll be easier. Do it to appease. There is absolutely no reason to follow up on it.

If you don't think it'll cause any long-term problems/arguments, don't bother.

However you still need to get her a Batman (Batgirl?) outfit :P.

posted by CitrusFreak12 27 June | 17:27

Gaspode, have you read Caryl Rivers' Aphrodite at MidCentury? It's out of print, but NYPL should have it. She grew up in a Protestant/Catholic family.

posted by brujita 27 June | 17:49

I think that presented with your circumstances, I would probably have had my kids baptized. Especially considering the flavor of Catholic that your families are. Taking some worry off of the grandparents is a kind thing. Later on, they may ask to take the kids to church with them, and the Catholic Mass is a reasonable service to attend. Keeps you kind of busy (sit, stand, kneel, sing, repeat), you say nice things to each other. I especially like the "Peace be with you." part.

I was never baptized, but went to Roman Catholic school for 12 years. My dad (himself an apostate Catholic with more buddhist leanings) taught there, so we got a break on tuition. The education I received there was very, very good. It was a small school, 25 kids per class maximum, with a lot of individual attention.

I was the only non-Catholic to ever go all the way through there. I have to say I felt like an outsider a lot of the time because of that basic difference. I couldn't participate in the basic stuff like first communion and confirmation with the rest of my classmates.

Still, I haven't gotten my own two children baptized, because I feel that making that decision for themselves is important. My own parents gave me the option. There were times that the more religious folks at school (sometimes the nuns, but more often the lay teachers) would try to convince me to become Catholic. I'd go home and have a great conversation with either of my parents and end up making a more informed decision about what my personal beliefs actually were/are.

What I share with my own children are lessons from a number of beliefs that center around being a good person in general. There are no family members (including the immense step family) concerned with my kids' baptismal status, although they do take the kids to their various churches. I've been totally fine with what I've heard about their experiences so far.

I also still say a mental Hail Mary every time I hear a siren, so it all adds up in different ways, I guess.

Sorry to ramble, but this got me thinking about some things with my own kids and how I should continue with them. Thanks for letting me type it out.

posted by lilywing13 28 June | 03:20

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