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08 June 2008

Very sensitive Jew / Arab 9-11 stuff within... please bring a cool head. [More:]I am looking for published research that disproves the bullshit rumor that 4000 Jews did not show up to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001.

By my use of the word "bullshit" I hope I have made it clear that I do not believe in this legend. But there are many people who do, and I am lucky enough to know some of them.

I would like some ammunition to put an end to some really stupid conversations I've had to have on this subject. Ideally: a URL I can email to a published study that demonstrates a thorough investigation and clear, publicly verifiable results.

All of this was recently re-prompted by listening to old This American Life episodes. In one, dated early October, 2001, the reporter speaks to someone who has heard this rumor, thinks it may be true, and wants to know why the Western media is hiding it.

Unfortunately, all the reporter offers at that point is some somber music and some rhetorical head-shaking about how tragic it is that anyone would believe such obviously untrue and offensive rubbish. Well, Miss... try my fucking family, okay? Help me out here. It is tragic but pish-poshing doesn't exactly help.

She does quote the names of 3 Israelis killed in the attacks and go on to say that 4000 Israelis would mean that 1 in every 15 WTC employees was from Israel, which just isn't true. Good point. Excellent.

But some variants of the rumor say 2000, not 4000, and in some variants it's simply "Jews" and not "Israelis." Is it possible that 1 in 30 WTC employees was Jewish? I think it is, so the one helpful data point in that story just isn't quite thorough or helpful enough. More please.

I was very disappointed to check Snopes and find just more moralistic head-shaking. In a completely out-of-character move, they quote the examples and then open with "these hardly merit a response." How could it possibly be true? And how disgusting for anyone to think it could be! I expect more than a high-handed dismissal from Snopes. I was hoping for some actual research into the subject. It's really out of character for them.

There are a lot of people I would like to shake out of this delusion and they are not just morally weak idiots. They perceive Israel as a powerful, well-connected, ruthless force capable of anything. And the facts on the ground are hardly an obvious dismissal of this point of view. Israel is a tiny country with a huge military and powerful friends that somehow manages to wag the dog that is the US despite all the regional bitterness this causes the US and does so in smug defiance of many UN resolutions plus the nuclear non-proliferation pact. They live in a state of war and have employed some pretty extreme policies, including targeting civilians, in the past. I'm not saying they plotted 9-11, just that an Arab with a long history of bitterness toward Israel needs more than some moralistic head-shaking to be convinced.

I need a neutral, thorough study that can be read by a mere mortal. Who's got it?
The State Department has some information concerning this rumor on their website. Apparently, 10-15 % of the victims were Jewish, a number which "correlates very closely with the number of Jewish residents in New York".

Good enough?
posted by Daniel Charms 09 June | 00:10
That's very good! Thanks! Any non-governmental independent studies out there? Because, you know, the Jews control the US government, blah blah quack quack. Actually, the best would be to get some corroboration between a governmental publication and an independent one (preferably something non-biased - let's just say that for this audience the anti-defamation league doesn't hold much weight).

Any independent sources that can verify what's in the State Dept. page?

Thanks!
posted by scarabic 09 June | 00:17
Slate, long article, via.

However, you might want to think about burdens of proof before wading in on this. Just say "That's a load of crap, where's your proof?"

Otherwise you can get into a situation where they will be attacking your evidence, while not providing a shred of evidence of their own. "Well obviously the Jewish media are going to deny it..."
posted by TheophileEscargot 09 June | 00:21
Oh I totally agree but when you're talking to people who grew up in and still live in the Arab Middle East, concepts like the burden of proof being on the prosecution are in name and fact quite foreign and do not quite turn the conversation on a dime. Plus, when you earnestly believe the entire system is corrupted and biased against you, and you're kept poor and disenfranchised, it's very hard to hold out the righteous hope that your POV will have its day in court and prevail according to burden-of-proof driven procedures (which is why we end up debating this ludicrous rumor in the first place). It sounds crazy, but I need very solid help talking to an incredibly paranoid, agitated, biased audience. They will quail in the face of verifiable facts but they are pretty hard to move with arguments of principle.
posted by scarabic 09 June | 01:19
There are a lot of people I would like to shake out of this delusion and they are not just morally weak idiots.

Good luck. I've found that when people blame the jews or the blacks or the arabs or the whathaveyous and buy into the weird conspiracy theories, they're awfully difficult to convince otherwise.
posted by cmonkey 09 June | 03:06
I am with cmonkey. The mere fact you are trying argue them out of it is proof that you are a puppet, being directed by the mind-control machinery from a deep underground bunker in Tel Aviv. So, sorry you have to know people like that. :)
posted by Meatbomb 09 June | 05:02
I think you're dealing with a different culture than I'm used to, but my (white american) grandparents send me all kinds of racist emails detailing how Mexican immigrants are bankrupting this country blah blah blah. NO amount of counter-evidence (and there is plenty) will dissuade them because they "know the truth". I just ignore them as much as possible, right down to being prepared to kick them out of my wedding if I have to. If someone is convinced that Jews are evil or whatever, I don't think a peer-reviewed academic study is going to make a dent in that, even if it was written by Palestinians. My sympathies, scarabic.
posted by desjardins 09 June | 09:46
"You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into."

People who believe in conspiracy theories do so because they fulfill an emotional need -- a need to believe that an all-powerful Manipulator controls everything behind the scenes.

You don't need to cite a study to demonstrate that the theory is ridiculous. I mean, four thousand people, of any ethnic background, managed to keep a conspiracy secret? Not a one of them mentioned anything to a friend or significant other? Not a one of them later decided to spill the beans for a book deal or media attention?

This theory just isn't congruent with the behavior and motivations of actual human beings.

Thanks for fighting the good fight, scarabic, but I think you've got an uphill battle ahead of you.

posted by jason's_planet 09 June | 10:32
Well thanks for the perspectives but I actually know the folks I'm talking about and they can be responsive to research on specific points. I wouldn't be looking for this material if I didn't think it would help. I'm not trying to talk them out of their worldview, just argue a point with them.

"You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into."


There are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of Israel. And this story was reported by news outlets throughout the middle east as fact at the time. Do you go out and fact check everything you see on the news?

You don't need to cite a study to demonstrate that the theory is ridiculous.

Believe it or not, there are people who think differently. Perhaps to some this makes them intractable and/or stupid and not worth talking to, but I am stuck with them and am working on them continually. I would also assert that they are not stupid or bad people. I repeat that news sources broadcast this story as a headline back then. Blame the news sources for being fucked up but the story was all over the place and some reasonable people believed it must be true. So while it may blow your mind, YES, I am looking for some published research I can use on this.
posted by scarabic 09 June | 11:13
Not really a debunking so much as a history of how the urban legend got started, Slate has an article here.
posted by GeckoDundee 09 June | 23:25
Arg! Clear evidence bunnies on a hillside were behind it all. That is of course the same link that TheophileEscargot posted.
posted by GeckoDundee 09 June | 23:27
The Slate article is a good one and worth mentioning twice! I am grateful for it. Sorry if I violated my own proscription to keep a cool head... I'm just kinda desperate for some tools to help me relate to said believers instead of writing them off. But I understand that other perspectives were offered in my own best interests and they cannot be discounted. Appreciate the help, all!
posted by scarabic 10 June | 20:51
Recap: Sexism in the US presidential race || Why must I feel like this today?

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