Wesley Snipes Time Served pool begins now.

I've got ten bucks that sez he does less than 8 months.

Uh, please tell me that link title is a direct quote from someone else...

So I guess movie stars don't have taxes withheld from their checks, eh? Bah, totally jelliez.

Uh, please tell me that link title is a direct quote from someone else...

It’s a quote from one of his movies, Passenger 57.

John Cutter: Charlie, ever played roulette?
Charles Rane: On occasion.
John Cutter: Well, let me give you a word of advice. Always bet on black!

Er, even still, I've gotta say that I'm having a difficult time giving the link title the benefit of the doubt . . .

Moi aussi. 'Splain?

Uh? Wait, what? grouse is using one of Wesley's most famous lines in reverse. What is not to get? Isn't it like doing an "AH'll not be back" if Arnold Schwarzenegger dies? Is that now allowed or something?

Uh not allowed. Man I never catch those mistakes before I hit post.

Yeah - I'm pretty ambivalent about the title. On the one hand, it is a quote from one of Snipes' films. On the other, it's highlighting Snipes' colour in a thread which is about nothing more than tax evasion.

And then, while I'm overanalysing it, the original quote which is a way of saying "Black Guys can be relied upon." has been subverted. I'm not comfortable with a thread which (probably unconsciously) says "Black guys cannot be relied upon." Mainly because the latter falls rather too easily into racial stereotypes.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, and I'm quite uncomfortable adding my white voice to yet another hand-wringing middle class white conversation about race. I don't really think any harm was meant by grouse, and I've no idea if any offence has been caused.

So yeah - ambivalent is the phrase here.

So, what exactly are you saying treepour? What does it mean that you can't give the link title the "benefit of the doubt?"

Honestly I am having trouble giving your comment the benefit of the doubt, given that it seems to insinuate some sort of wrongdoing without articulating what it is.

Also, I'll note that "always bet on black" was almost the first thing said in the recent MeFi thread on this very subject. I thought more people would be familiar with that context.

Yeah, I see what you are saying, seanyboy. To be honest, I think you are overanalyzing, and that this is just "yet another hand-wringing middle class white conversation about race." Although I do appreciate you taking the time to explain what makes you uncomfortable rather than just engaging in a knee-jerk reaction.

oh, I didn't read any of that into it at all, I immediatly thought of the movie and then started wondering if Liz Hurley has had plastic since she's so fugly throughout that film compared to her hotness now I guess I'm a hare brain this morning

This is a PR stunt. He's a very method actor. This is just his way of preparing for his role as Col. Kanye West, ret. in OPERATION: GOLDDIGGER. Coming to a theater near you, Summer 2038.

I think it was less "knee jerk" and more "The potential offense is so very obvious that huge nicely-couched explanations seem a bit unnecessary" (and, in my case, combined with "I'm fucking exhausted and not feeling very articulate").

But, c'mon. "Black people can't be relied on after all" seems like a unproblematic thread title to you?

But occhiblu, that's not what the thread title was. I understand that you are exhausted, but I don't think that's a good excuse to misquote me.

What "potential offense" exactly are you accusing me of? It's not obvious to me, so why don't you spell it out. It would also be nice if you could do so without saying I said things that I didn't. Thanks.

As someone who hasn't seen the movie and therefore didn't know the exact reference, I just figured it was some sort of gambling quote, which isn't totally crazy given that the case is all about money. grouse is a longstanding member, I figure we can all give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks, TPS. You know, if the older MeFi thread had still been open, I wouldn't have even posted this here.

On the whole, I wouldn't be too upset if this thread just disappeared.

"Guess you shouldn't always bet on black, after all."

"Black people can't be relied on after all"

More like black people can't always be relied on. No people can.

Just ask the mods to change the title to a different Wesley Snipes movie quote. I suggest the following (from Demolition Man):

"All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2032 - that's two-zero-three-two, as in the 21st Century - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of robed sissies. All we have to do to run the whole thing, is to kill a man named Raymond, who put it all together. But, there's an extra added bonus. We get to kill the man who put most of us behind the freezer."

grouse, I was fine with it.

grouse is a longstanding member, I figure we can all give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have no doubt he didn't mean it to read that way. But that doesn't change the fact that it does. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't entail giving them a pass for everything they ever say; it does entail pointing out that what they're saying doesn't seem to fit what they mean, and you're sure they didn't mean it that way, but they may want to rephrase it this time, or the next time.

If the initial comments by SassHat, treepour and yourself meant grouse "may want to rephrase it this time, or the next time" then what you guys said doesn't seem to fit what you meant.

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't entail giving them a pass for everything they ever say; it does entail pointing out that what they're saying doesn't seem to fit what they mean, and you're sure they didn't mean it that way, but they may want to rephrase it this time, or the next time.

I don't know about that. This isn't a school, nobody needs a lecture. grouse said something that could be interpreted a bad way, it was a mistake, we all realize it now, nobody meant anything wrong, we don't need to jump up and down on his head.

WILL WHITE PEOPLE STOP DEBATING WHAT IS OFFENSIVE TO BLACK PEOPLE?!!

Seriously, everyone in this thread who is white STFU. Ok, everyone else, go:

real life LOL

WILL WHITE PEOPLE STOP DEBATING WHAT IS OFFENSIVE TO BLACK PEOPLE?!!

Sure. Can I talk about what's offensive to my own sensibilies, then? Can I think it's tasteless even if "black people" think it's funny or inoffensive? I mean, I urge MuddDude to say thank you when a waiter brings him something, even if the waiter doesn't particularly care whether she is thanked or not, because I believe in courteous behavior. In the same vein, can I be disturbed by a potentially offensive reference even if the supposed targets aren't actually offended?

(I hope grouse and everyone else don't interpret this as 'piling on'. I see this as an opportunity to ask a question that's been bugging me for a while).

I don't think it's piling on, muddgirl, but if you want to talk about some supposed wrongdoing, then I think you should say what you think was wrong, and why it was wrong.

Wow. This is still going on? Y'all are thinking way too hard about this. If the title of the post had been "never bet on black", you might have something. As it is...

Oh, fer fuck's sake. Honestly. Plate of beans, anyone?

In the same vein, can I be disturbed by a potentially offensive reference even if the supposed targets aren't actually offended?

I'd prefer you didn't. I find it offensive.

but if you want to talk about some supposed wrongdoing, then I think you should say what you think was wrong

I don't think it was a wrong-doing per se, but I will admit, grouse, that when I scanned down the front page this morning, my visceral reaction to the title of the post was that it was a bit tasteless. I have not seen the movie the quote is from (although I'm familiar with the referenced gambling term), and like occhiblu, I was confused as to why Mr. Snipe's race has anything to do with this case. I understand that you meant it as a joke, and that you apparantly missed any racial overtones to the joke, but that doesn't change the fact that I was immediately and rather unexpectedly made to consider Mr. Snipe's ethnicity and my own ethnicity, in a context where ethnicity wasn't really the issue. A blogger I read calls it "grunch" - that feeling of suddenly and unexpectedly realizing that I Am A Woman (or rather, I Have a Woman's Body), though in this case it would be I Am A White Person.

Now apparantly, other readers didn't have the same reaction that I did, or that occhiblu did, but I will not explain it away or apologize for it. I felt uncomfortable reading the post title, but in the spirit of Picking My Battles, I chose at the time to move on and ignore the ensuing discussion. However, when Eideteker condended that I am somehow not allowed to have or to express a negative reaction to the post title because I'm not black, then I wanted to speak up and ask why.

On preview: perhaps this is a plate of beans, or maybe I should start my own thread. But I don't think that dismissing people's feelings and opinions is productive to the discussion.

In my opinion the post title was funny, but I have seen the movie and was aware of the context.

Everyone else is also allowed to have their opinions, negative or positive, and is allowed to express them; that's part of what makes MetaChat so wonderful.

I'm also of the opinion this is a plate of beans and will be until Mr. Snipes pops in to give his opinion.

Opinion opinion opinion. It looks weird now.

I always used to think: "Wesley Snipes... but at what?" Now I know. The Revanooers!

Hi muddgirl, thanks for taking the time to articulate what you think about this.

It was a reference to something Wesley Snipes himself (well, his character) said: "Always bet on black." This was in regards to a struggle he was having with a white person. Perhaps you think it is tasteless to suggest that the black person will always win in a violent struggle against a white person? If anything, Snipe's claim is the racist one, although I imagine few were offended by it, given the context.

Saying that the black person will not always win, is no more offensive than saying that a white person will not always win. A person of neither race is *always* going to win. Stating this can't really be offensive if you think about what it means. Neither is bringing up Snipes's previous racial statement in a jokey way.

If you really want to discuss what Eideteker said, I think doing it in a new thread would bring less baggage along.

When Wesley Snipes says, "Always bet on black" in that movie he doesn't mean "black people," he's really more talking about himself specifically. He means "always bet one me." So the title means, "Don't bet on Wesley Snipes."

Grouse did nothing wrong.

That's another interpretation of what "always bet on black" means, jrossi4r, but even in that context, I wouldn't be saying "you shouldn't bet on Wesley Snipes," but "you shouldn't ALWAYS bet on Wesley Snipes."

I understand your position, grouse, and let me again say that I am not calling you or Wesley Snipes racist. I am trying to explain that to me, to other people unaware of the cultural context, and to some people who were aware of the cultural context, it was a very jarring phrase.

I feel like maybe we're talking at cross-purposes to each other, so I'll just drop it.

I didn't see any racism, but then again I had completely forgotten that Wesley Snipes was black in the first place.

Point taken, muddgirl, thanks.