MetaChat - Leamme alone!

Have you considered that maybe you look nice?

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 18:19

pie, although I'm sure she looks nice, that's not the issue. When you are a woman, unwelcome attention from men rarely feels like a compliment. It usually feels invasive and rude and creepy.

sweetkid, you're just going to have to ignore it or come up with a snappy comeback that lets them know you don't appreciate it, and you're more than a pair of tits.

posted by Specklet 12 March | 18:26

UglyMask™

posted by Hellbient 12 March | 18:36

I rarely get this kind of attention, but I don't know if it's because of the Alaskan attitude of MYOB, or because I have a good Bitch Face.

posted by rhapsodie 12 March | 18:37

Have you tried hissing like a monitor lizard? Works for me.

posted by small_ruminant 12 March | 18:40

Learn how to turn on and off the Bitch Face. I rarely get hit on - when I'm smiling and looking carefree, I get hit on more. Therefore, I've got this look that conveys "if you so much as look at me I will remove the physical parts of you that create children". Not grumpy, per-se, but not smiling, arms crossed, fast walk, angry eyes.

I wonder why some people feel like it's appropriate to compliment complete strangers on their looks?

posted by muddgirl 12 March | 18:44

Or yeah, try asking that question. I'm genuinely curious, now.

(If it's unclear, the question is "Why do you feel it's appropriate to talk to complete strangers about their looks?"

posted by muddgirl 12 March | 18:46

Have you tried hissing like a monitor lizard? Works for me.

Maybe people think you've sprung a leak.

posted by jonmc 12 March | 18:47

Wow, that's dreadfully unfortunate. I think it's a wonderful thing to live in a world where there attractive women around, though it does make me morbidly depressed, since I don't know how to talk to them. I guess I just shouldn't. I don't think there's anything wrong on complimenting another person's looks. I think it is appropriate. It's really tragic that because of a few really sleazy men, women cannot be aproached without threats of violence or at least rudeness and insults.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 18:49

As a male, I don't make the catcalls or comments. I never understood why guys think that would work. Instead, I make that noise a cat makes when he sees a bird outside the window.

posted by birdherder 12 March | 18:52

Muddgirl, I don't know if you ever saw the Real World: Boston (blush, because I did) but one character went after a guy for hissing at her. She was like, "Do you really think you will get women hissing like that?" He had nothing to say, and it was awesome. The trouble is, I just want to get some damn milk and go home. If I ignore it, I just get more abuse "You're such a bitch, you aint that hot." I live in a nice area, too, and the worst part is there are KIDS around.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 18:55

a few really sleazy men

Presumably more than just a few, since so many women regularly endure this kind of harassment.

posted by matthewr 12 March | 18:58

I don't think there's anything wrong on complimenting another person's looks.

Well, context and method of approach are everything. It's one thing to say 'that dress looks pretty on you,' quite another to shout 'shake that thang, mama.'

Now, on the rare occasions that I've been complimented by strangers on my looks, it's been pleasant (or at least amusing like the time a very drunk woman told me that I had 'pretty eyes' but that I needed to get my eyebrows waxed. We were in a bar that had once been owned by Al Qaeda. Long story). But, I'm a good sized male who dosen't have to deal with it constantly and far more creepily.

posted by jonmc 12 March | 18:59

Oooh, creep city! Sorry sweetkid. All I can say is that when you get mom aged, it slows to a trickle, and is usually done by grandpa aged fellows. If it's kids, it REALLY feels like a tease or an insult or a threat. This is part of the reason I adopted crazy bitch attitude in public. Now that the reason is gone, it doesn't serve me as well - it's a habit that may have lost it's usefullness.

I'll also mention my dear New Orleans, where I was quite young, but talking to strangers was a sort of norm around town. I could take it because it was always so slow and polite, no threat of violence behind it - I remember walkind down the sidewalk one morning, and a stranger said something like "Good morning, pretty eyes" and just smiled and kept walking. I must have smiled back. This happened across class and race lines, and I sort of miss that easy-ness.

posted by rainbaby 12 March | 19:07

All I can say is that when you get mom aged, it slows to a trickle, and is usually done by grandpa aged fellows.

Capital knockers, Madame! (sorry, I was channel Sideshow Bob's brother there for a moment.

posted by jonmc 12 March | 19:12

*smiles at jonmc*

posted by rainbaby 12 March | 19:15

It's not just comments, it's also cars honking, and then I look up thinking I am in someone's way, but no, it's more "hey, sexy." I'll see three nice looking women go by with no comment, and then I walk by, "Hey black jeans! You look sexy in those jeans, Do you have two minutes?" I'm not any more nice looking than those three women, I must be doing something with my face, or giving off some "I'll take anything" vibe or something. Yuck.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 19:18

pie, whether she looks nice or not is irrelevant. The issue is that women have the right to be in public without having our looks dissected and our privacy invaded.

posted by scody 12 March | 19:20

I usually walk around with dark sunglasses and a scowl.

posted by gomichild 12 March | 19:25

Well, it worked for Lou Reed.

posted by jonmc 12 March | 19:27

I think we've talked about this before, pi. You can talk to pretty strangers - why can't you? But then, why would you start the conversation with, "Hey mama, you're a smokin fox. Let's talk!" Why why why? That's like starting a conversation with, "Wow, your lazy eye must be really annoying." Looks, although they have some component of personal attention, are genetic. Everyone likes to think that they have other facets of themselves that are worth compliments, besides their looks.

Imagine, pi, that nearly half the time you left the house, women would come up to you and say, "Wow, I can't help noticing how large your penis looks! You must be quite a lothario!" Old women, teenagers, construction worker, taxi drivers, etc. etc. etc. Is that really a compliment? No! It's a creepy violation of personal space. You'd want to wear larger pants. You'd want to growl at any woman who looked at you.

On preview, scody said it nice and succinctly: women have the right to be in public without having our looks dissected. I would add "verbally dissected".

posted by muddgirl 12 March | 19:27

Pie, Jon is right: context is everything.

One of the nicest compliments I ever got was from a complete stranger on the street. We were walking towards each other on a crowded sidewalk, and a tall black dude began smiling at me. He had an open, friendly smile, with a appreciative glint. (This was back when I had a shaved head, and was pretty used to getting stared at. I'd grown to appreciate the appreciative, male or female.) As we neared each other, I broke out in a huge grin, and as he passed me, he turned his head and murmured "Beautiful!"

This was a very different experience than having a guy on the bus grab his inner thigh and make kissing noises at my boobs. The first made me feel like smiling, the second made me feel invaded and angry.

sweetkid, I won't encourage you to try and look like a bitch all the time as a preventative measure (that can't be good for your sense of well-being), but I encourage you to call these men on their behaviour. Tell them to mind their own business, tell them you hope no one talks to their mother that way, tell them you don't appreciate the comment.

On preview: yeah, what scody said.

Pie, I know you, and I know you would never talk to a woman the way these men are talking to sweetkid.

posted by Specklet 12 March | 19:32

I had a guy once come up to me and comment on the book I was reading, then he noticed I had the sniffles and took everything out of his backpack looking for a Claritin. I thought it was cute and gave him my number.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 19:33

Yeah, when a guy looks at me warmly, smiles engagingly, when his eyes linger but he doesn't stare - that's flattering. I know that when a guy approaches me and asks about the book I'm reading, he's most certainly thinking about my looks (what else does he know about me?), but it shows good breeding when the guy can restrain himself. This should be taught in middle school sex ed.

posted by muddgirl 12 March | 19:52

You can talk to pretty strangers - why can't you?

Not if they're scowling and looking angry and/or aloof. Then you can't. This morning, I smiled at a really lovely woman on the bus. She ignored me and continued to stare stonily at what ever it was she was looking at - book, paper, out the window, I don't remember. This was the second time I've tried that and not had my smile acknowledged. It just makes me die a little inside, and as a result, I start thinking of women who I find pretty as belonging to some other class, which I'm not allowed to associate with. Over time, and on days when the medication isn't working so well, this leads me to feel angry and bitter, and I find myself, at times, cursing the existence of such women. Of course, I guess what I'm really angry at is the frustration of the situation. I am angry that something I can see with my eyes can cause all these awful emotions, and I can't stop it.

That makes me think that maybe all those catcalls are not intended to win the object's affection, but rather directly to cause discomfort and offense, as an expression of frustration and anger. I guess the fact is that I keep those feelings to myself, while others choose to express them.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 20:14

Pie, I think catcalls are mostly about causing discomfort, and putting women in their place as sexual objects. For example, if a woman is on her way to a business meeting in a suit, she'll get comments like, "Hey baby, you're looking sexy in that suit. Are you too busy and important to talk to me, baby? In a rush baby?" Immediately, you're not running off to a business meeting, thinking about your presentation, you're Office Barbie in this person's private porno.

In my experience, when a man smiles at a woman in public, and the woman smiles back, the man will think she is interested, and press the issue until the woman is visibly uncomfortable. Like so: Man: smile. Woman: polite smile back. Man: Where are you from? Would you like to get dinner? How old are you? Woman: That's ok, I am busy. Man: Are you too good for me? I just want to take you to dinner. Woman: no, it's ok. Man: Damn, you are not that pretty. You have a stick up your ass.

This is why women scowl. Also, women aren't "something you see with your eyes" they are people. We're not scenery.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 20:23

And that is why at times, I really deeply hate them.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 20:32

pie. You really don't know why someone refuses to acknowledge you. It may be that they're having a bad day, or they don't want unwanted attention or they're tired or they're scared or they're just bad people.

Don't take it personally.
If random women don't want to smile at you, there's nothing you can do about it.

posted by seanyboy 12 March | 20:35

Except this "In my experience, when a man smiles at a woman in public, and the woman smiles back, the man will think she is interested, and press the issue until the woman is visibly uncomfortable. Like so: Man: smile. Woman: polite smile back. Man: Where are you from? Would you like to get dinner? How old are you? Woman: That's ok, I am busy. Man: Are you too good for me? I just want to take you to dinner. Woman: no, it's ok. Man: Damn, you are not that pretty. You have a stick up your ass."
Described to a tee my experience this morning. I wanted to push that girl into oncoming traffic. Of course, I didn't. Because I have manners.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 20:38

Well, the female smile is a mysterious thing, my friend. It's sometimed hard to tell the 'I think you're cute' smile from the 'please get out of my way' smile.

posted by jonmc 12 March | 20:48

You need to step back a bit on this pie. You're getting yourself all wound up.

I can understand the frustration of being the ignored man or the man that can't seem to catch a break with women. I can empathise that it can make you angry, and that coupled with your mental health issues, it can be overwhelming.

But you've got to figure out that this is not about you.
Women don't like any hint of a situation that could lead to them being hassled. Because, it happens too much, and they get hassled all the time. Simple as.

If you want some female company, you're going to have to get it a different way. Smiling at girls on buses is not going to work for you.

posted by seanyboy 12 March | 20:49

But it has in the past - met my fourth girlfriend that way.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 21:00

Someone is talking about how being harassed makes her want to purposefully disfigure herself or hide to avoid it, and pie is talking about how he wants to push women he tries to pick up on the bus who deflect him into traffic.

i feel bad for the women who have to take your bus route, pie.
Damn.

It worked once. Great. Move on.
These people have to use the bus.

posted by ethylene 12 March | 21:20

My best friend gets hit on constantly. I rarely do. We're both fairly average looking - the main difference is that her breasts are huge and mine are, well, decidely not. She hates the attention and wears the tightest sports bra she can stand to smash down her boobs. I've heard the frog bra is good for this.

Of course, guys just shouldn't be assholes to begin with, but there's not a lot we can do about that.

posted by desjardins 12 March | 21:24

i always got hassled far more in casual clothes than anything else. If i was dressed up in any way, from business aggro to leather fetish, there was never a word unless it was from someone clearly altered in some way.
In the wrong mood, stupid throw away commentary can make you pray for stray lightning, but anything more than toss off lines is crossing the line.
If they can't get the idea to move along, responding with aggression is not only not going to help, it's against the law.

If it's always the same people in the same place, feel free to give one last warning before you mace them in full view of all likewise clueless losers, while loudly reminding them, "I SAID I'M NOT INTERESTED. MOVE IT ALONG."
Carry breath mints to pelt them in the forehead with while saying, "IT WON'T HELP BUT I HOPE IT HURTS, STINKY."

i remember reading an article about how men think when a woman smiles at them, it's a sexual invitation.
This explained so much.
Then i quizzed some male friends who all agreed, and could tell the difference between a friendly noncommittal smile from an interested one only when it was happening to someone else.

Whether the person is interested or not, it's always best to move it along. Lingering is the losing move in either case.

posted by ethylene 12 March | 21:47

I had a guy once come up to me and comment on the book I was reading, then he noticed I had the sniffles and took everything out of his backpack looking for a Claritin. I thought it was cute and gave him my number.

So sweetkid, not to sound harsh at all, what happened to you today was totally a creep fest, and I do not want to be accused of blaming the victim, but this may mean something in your carriage or demeanor invites inquiries.

This comment is tangentially supporting Ethylene. If you don't want it, shut it down. Right away. If you want to be swept away on the bus or what have you, accept that, that's cool too.

posted by rainbaby 12 March | 21:55

Related thing that I read this morning: No Right To Be Presumed Harmless.

sweetkid, I wish I had advice. I think the main thing that works for me is simply fully believing that I don't have to be nice to people all the time, which allows me to quickly bring up the wall and shut down the second someone acts obnoxiously. I don't let it keep me from smiling at people on the street, just use it to skip over that moment of guilt that women tend to get for breaking the "be nice and accommodating" rule -- because I think it's that moment of guilt that does one in.

posted by occhiblu 12 March | 21:57

Hey ethelyne, I wasn't even trying to "pick up" on her, I merely hoped for some acknowledgment of our common humanity. Obviously that's too much to ask. I've never committed manslaughter, and I'm not about to start, but that's how I feel, and I assume that others feel the same thing. Unfortunate that you have to share a world with human beings. We can be so gauche.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 22:01

Pie, i got more of a problem with you hijacking sweetkid's topic with your own repeated issues with women on the bus.
Ot reminds me of reading craigslist a long time ago with two ads of guys hot after asian women and one after yelling at them to "Leave poor those women alone! I bet they can't go to the starbucks now!"

Maybe they don't want to share your humanity.

Sweetkid, also feel free to brandish mace with a helful, "YOU WANT SOME EYE CANDY? I GOT EYE CANDY."

Armor sucks sometimes, sometimes it's empowering, sometimes you forget to wear it, sometimes you forgot you left it on.

posted by ethylene 12 March | 22:07

Rainbaby, I only included that anecdote just to illustrate that sometimes it's ok for people to come up and talk to you, if they're friendly and not making it all about your body and gross. I do think there's a difference and people know it. It's not like OMG mens shut down now.

I see what you're saying though, and if there is something in my demeanor that invites the gross kind of attention I would really like to kill it. I'm grateful to the men who posted on here with understanding. Women don't exist for entertainment, or to smile and "brighten a man's day." We're people and deserve respect for our complexity. I feel like this attitude, that we're supposed to smile and be sweet all the time, is so infantlizing. Like I'll get a chocolate if I smile back on the bs.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 22:23

I don't understand the analogy

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 22:23

Pie, if you would really like to understand this, read occhiblu's link.

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 22:35

I looked for a second. It made me really angry. That's part of why I loathe feminists.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 22:43

What I mean is I am not guilty of anything and I can and will continue to operate under that premise. Anybody with too much of a chip on their shoulder to accept that can fuck off and die.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 22:44

As a male, I have made some peace with this dynamic, after many years of sorta struggling with it.

The fact is, while most men are harmless, some aren't. Add this too the fact that there seems to be a "type" that gets hit on, or commented about, and I can see where this tension would get old, if you are a woman who gets a lot of comments from strangers.

If I am in the mood, and the (female) person looks interesting, I might say something to them. But it's not under my control how they react, and I don't get resentful or mopey if they do not engage me back.

Sometimes I'll get in a really interesting conversation, sometimes there is some fun flirting that results, and sometimes the person either runs the other way of sits there and steams, from the intrusion. But I also know that I didn't do anything wrong, so, being only responsible for my own behavior, if it is the latter, I go about my business.

It took a lot of time to get to this point. The resentment of the "nice guy" that gets blown off, or misinterpreted is a sucky thing and I have spent more time there than I would care to enumerate.

posted by danf 12 March | 22:49

You're depressed, you want to punish women who don't want to interact with you--
--i don't know why but, i get the feeling maybe it's best you aren't dating right now, pie.

posted by ethylene 12 March | 22:52

What I mean is I am not guilty of anything and I can and will continue to operate under that premise. Anybody with too much of a chip on their shoulder to accept that can fuck off and die.

You're guilty of over-reacting, assuming it's all personal, assuming it's all about you, and not accepting that there's a bigger thing here about humanity. (And humanity is something that you yourself have repeatedly claimed to be frustrated with.)

So maybe I'll fuck off and die now. But you need some help, pie. Or some stronger drugs. Or maybe a really long, sincere hug and a few drinks. Which I'd happily provide if I were in the same area code.

posted by mudpuppie 12 March | 22:55

pie, I agree with you wholeheartedly in principle that men have the right to not automatically be seen as a threat and that being treated as a potential rapist until you prove yourself otherwise is totally unfair. This attitude pisses me off to no end, because I am a decent guy who would no sooner physically harm a woman than I would cut my own left hand off.

But (and it's a big but), we live in the real world where women are attacked and raped (and worse) all the time. As men, we don't have to live with that possibility every day. Well, it's technically possible, of course, but the odds are staggeringly different. Right or wrong, women have to be wary of strange men. You don't have to like it any more than I do, but it's a simple fact of life and you have to accept it or go mad. I read occhiblu's link and it pissed me off, because it portrays me as someone with a high probability of being a rapist, which I find incredibly insulting. After reading the whole thing, though, I had to accept it as truth.

Really, smiling at random strangers on the bus is not a good way to meet your soul-mate anyway (even if it happened to work once). Try another tactic - almost anything will be more successful. Public transport is a tense place for everyone and not a good start to any sort of relationship.

Anybody with too much of a chip on their shoulder to accept that can fuck off and die.
Well, if it's OK with you, I won't fuck off and die just now, but I hope you learn to deal with the chip on your shoulder and that might help you get more positive outcomes from your interactions with other humans.

posted by dg 12 March | 23:04

Well, I feel a bit better now having spewed that. I was getting frustrated with this whole gender politik thing and it's been eating at me all the time for the last month or so. I was going to start my own thread about it eventually, but this happened first.

posted by pieisexactlythree 12 March | 23:10

I hope you learn to deal with the chip on your shoulder and that might help you get more positive outcomes from your interactions with other humans.

Also, you might try a fedora.

posted by scody 12 March | 23:41

Oh, of course - that was just too obvious to need stating, I thought.

posted by dg 12 March | 23:51

Fedora? I just met her!

posted by sweetkid 12 March | 23:53

The problem with smiling at guys on the bus is that when (not if) they decide you're interested, you're stuck on that same bus with them every damn day unless you rearrange your schedule.

Generally speaking I'm okay with this, and if someone's obnoxious I'm okay with shutting them down, but I'm older now and also I'm big. When I was 15 I wasn't up for it, and if I were 5'2" I probably wouldn't be up for it.

However, pie, if a guy singles me to smile at it's usually because he's going to try to start a conversation. I'm not usually up for that on my commute. Sorry, but I'm not obliged to and I'm not going to if I don't feel like it.

posted by small_ruminant 12 March | 23:56

Sweetkid, I remember that Real World episode! Have you seen hollaback? What I usually do is say flatly "Leave me alone" or yell "stop harassing women!"...it's only recently that I've learned the Spanish for the first (and the word for hiss).

posted by brujita 12 March | 23:57

"You look nice today, sexy."
"Can I talk to you? You're so pretty! Damn, I just want to talk!"
"Hey sexy! You're hot!!!"

What the... people actually said that? This doesn't strike me as something "normal" people would say. I couldn't imagine saying it to an attractive female without feeling very silly. They sound like youtube comments. Or comments made by people who speak English as a second language. Or something. Very creepy.

If it's any consolation, I seem to be the only person out of my group of friends who gets hit on by gay guys. Like, a lot. On the one hand, flattering I guess. On the other, it can be very annoying. And sometimes creepy, like the time I was taking a break from riding my bike and a guy stopped in the middle of the road, rolled down his window, and asked if I wanted a blowjob. "No, seriously."
I can't imagine having to deal with that on multiple occasions.

posted by CitrusFreak12 12 March | 23:58

Also, if you're really stuck, a glare plus open-mouthed, monitor-lizard-style hissing really does work. Bonus- even works on foreigners!

It only takes one guy following you off the bus and to your work for a woman to never want to make eye contact again. Guys are always complaining that San Francisco women are rude in public. Well, guys here at least aren't famous for good boundaries.

posted by small_ruminant 12 March | 23:59

Pie, it's like this-some of us wimmen have had really bad experiences which make us jumpy around the male gender in general, even the nice guys. I'm only comfortable if I feel I am in control of any interaction and I'm freaking almost fifty!

That having been said, some guys give off the harmless vibe and some do not. Perhaps your vibe does not feel harmless-ask your women friends about that. (by harmless I mean totally nonsexual.)

posted by bunnyfire 13 March | 00:00

Yeah, I am 5'2" and not up for it, tired, what have you. It's just the attitude that "Hey, woman! I, as a man, have deemed you attractive, from this sea of faces, I have chosen you. Now repay me with endless conversation/a date/letting me touch your knee. And if you don't, I will shout obscenities at you, for everyone to hear." What does this have to do with dating in any way? Also, pie, and everyone like him, I have had things happen to me that I am sure have not happened to most men. I have been followed, chased and threatened with glass bottles, etc.

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:01

People shouldn't have to justify not wanting to interact.

posted by ethylene 13 March | 00:05

CitrusFreak, those sound like standard come-ons to me.

Has anyone seen that Anjelah Johnson video where she describes different races' come-ons? I thought it was funny.

posted by small_ruminant 13 March | 00:06

What the... people actually said that? This doesn't strike me as something "normal" people would say. I couldn't imagine saying it to an attractive female without feeling very silly. They sound like youtube comments. Or comments made by people who speak English as a second language. Or something. Very creepy.

Yes, and I mean, this is constant. I feel like someone calls out to me something about "Hey sexy" "Mami" or "You look NICE" about 20 times in a day. It's too much. Hanging out of cars. Running after me. In the subway. I can't react to someone being friendly because it so quickly turns to "You have a few minutes? You are so sexy girl. Can I talk to you?" "Hey this lady is a bitch, she won't even talk to me." Every day. Every day. If I have coffee--"Can I have coffee girl? give me your coffee girl, I want a taste." If I go running--"Yeah run baby. Your body is looking right."

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:08

And guys masturbating in the car as they follow you walking somewhere. A day is not complete without that on a nice spring day, but i'm such a bitch that i can't seem to enjoy it.

posted by ethylene 13 March | 00:11

People I date don't even call me "baby."

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:19

I just can't wrap my head around that, as I've never seen anything like it in my area. I've had friends who have had that happen to them maybe once (kinda like my experience with that guy who asked if I wanted a blowjob), it's very rare. But 20 times a day every day would signify, to me at least, that I should move as soon as I'm able, as the area I'm currently living in is populated almost entirely by atypical creeps.

posted by CitrusFreak12 13 March | 00:20

I think you don't see it because you're a guy, CitrusFreak. I've often heard guys be like, "That happens? whaa??" even if it happened right in front of them in the past.

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:27

I think there's a strong possibility that women are trained to hear it in a way that most men aren't, because we kind of have to be (or risk harm). I definitely ignore a lot of seemingly random urban noise, including people yelling at each other, but I generally know *exactly* when a stranger's addressing me.

Which, I think, is partly why the experience is so disconcerting.

posted by occhiblu 13 March | 00:31

Once a friend of mine saw me in the street and started yelling "Hey!" "Hey!" I was so trained to ignore male attention that when he sort of did this frog jump in front of me to get my attention, I just walked around him and kept going. It was only when he called my name that I realized he was a friend and not some random guy trying to get my attention. When we told our friends the story, they were like, "Whoa! Out of it!" But I wasn't "out of it" I was set to "Ignore. Ignore. Ignore."

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:36

i've done that before, once when a friend was yelling at me from his car at night when i was outside smoking.
He was all "Hey."
And i just waved and said something like "Hi. You can go now."
And he yelled, "It's me, A!"
He thought it was pretty funny.
"You were just, Okay, move on, dude."

posted by ethylene 13 March | 00:41

Yeah, dudes, say the person's name, dammit, if you want her attention. It's rough out there.

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:44

Guys seem to find it endless novelty when they know about it.
One time the waiter at this Chicago breakfast place pressed his leg very consciously against mine the whole time while he took our orders. i was with this guy i was seeing and his friends. He just thought it was funny.

posted by ethylene 13 March | 00:45

yeah, funny, or "you should be flattered."

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 00:49

pieisexactlythree, please check your email.

posted by taz 13 March | 02:19

People shouldn't have to justify not wanting to interact.

OMG EXACTLY!!!!!

Sorry, but yeah. If there are two men in an airport, and one man is reading an interesting-looking book, and the second man wants to network, and the first man has "DO NOT TALK TO ME" body language, then the first man will pick up the hint and not talk to him. But if the woman has "DO NOT TALK TO ME" body language, then someone will invariably say, "What 'cha readin?" or "Can we get a smile, sweetie?"

Where do you live, sweetkid? I get the impression that this is super-common in cities like New York, with a large pedestrian population, and thus lots of relative anonymity.

I hope that pi learns to re-direct his anger. We women are not mind readers.

posted by muddgirl 13 March | 07:01

I have had things happen to me that I am sure have not happened to most men. I have been followed, chased and threatened with glass bottles, etc.

Sweetkid, sounds like you need a man to protect you.

Sorry, I'll let myself out of the thread now.

posted by Eideteker 13 March | 07:39

I wanted to push that girl into oncoming traffic. Of course, I didn't. Because I have manners.

If your definition of manners is not pushing random people you encounter into oncoming traffic, then you have set a pretty low bar for yourself.

posted by grouse 13 March | 08:07

Yes, and I mean, this is constant. I feel like someone calls out to me something about "Hey sexy" "Mami" or "You look NICE" about 20 times in a day. It's too much. Hanging out of cars. Running after me. In the subway. I can't react to someone being friendly because it so quickly turns to "You have a few minutes? You are so sexy girl. Can I talk to you?" "Hey this lady is a bitch, she won't even talk to me." Every day. Every day. If I have coffee--"Can I have coffee girl? give me your coffee girl, I want a taste." If I go running--"Yeah run baby. Your body is looking right."

I'm having trouble buying this. If it's true, then I think what rainbaby said (this may mean something in your carriage or demeanor invites inquiries) sounds right, and maybe you need to examine that.

posted by amro 13 March | 08:41

I dunno, amro, I hear similar things from my friends why live in NYC, LA, and San Francisco. I've never experienced it at this frequency, but I can believe it's possible.

Furthermore, I don't think blaming the victim is helpful. I assume sweetkid isn't walking around in her underwear, or wearing a shirt that says, "Hey, Dudes! I'm looking for either casual sex or an easy relationship, so plz come hit on me in an inappropriate fashion! Also, feel free to degrade me so that you can feel more like a Manly Fellow!"

posted by muddgirl 13 March | 08:51

Uuuugh. Ugh ugh ugh.

Again, I in no way blame sweetkid. And by "something in your carriage or demeanor" I did not mean clothing. These are hostile acts, not sexual ones. I meant she might seem vulnerable. . .perhaps even somehow projecting that the comments will get under her skin - an easy target for insult. Or maybe she's extroverted and open to meeting strangers, so she gets a whole lotta bad with the good. I don't know.

I was trying to suggest that while she can't change the world around her, she can change the way she interracts with that world - if and only if she wants to. I'm not even suggesting she should.

posted by rainbaby 13 March | 09:07

It used to happen to me all the time too when I was in my 20s and lived in bigger cities. Like rainbaby says, it does trickle off over time (And I miss it. Not all of it, but okay, I confess, now if I get whistled at on the street it makes my whole day. Yeah, I'm part of the problem, etc. Whatever.) But it's not just looks. I think a lot of it is learning a street face as opposed to a friendly face. I used to say that I had a neon sign on my head saying "Schizophrenic? Talk to Me!" because it seemed like every raving lunatic in the city would lurch into my path and start a conversation.

But I tell you, after about six months living in Baltimore and then New York, the crazy people began to avoid me and the really bad harassers took a pass as well. Your attitude, face and body language can change it - it doesn't have, in the end, that much to do with your appearance; it's more that you are looking like a target, which means, you look like it's going to affect you. These guys are bullies. They're trolls. They want a reaction. So don't give them the satisfaction.

A lot of it has to do with confidence - walk like you're not afraid, like you are ready and willing to kick ass if necessary. Look straight ahead of you. Don't smile. Don't ever, ever make eye contact with anyone. I don't believe in yelling back because that has gotten me into some nasty exchanges over the years - I completely ignore them and I mean ignore. Couple ignoring with total hauteur, like, you cannot believe that piece of street furniture, that dogshit would dare address you and you'll find that they will begin to pick easier targets. At least it worked for me.

And now, at 44? When a guy tells me I'm beautiful on the street I pretty much want to marry him. ;-)

posted by mygothlaundry 13 March | 09:19

Yeah, I would believe it rainbaby. I am not sure exactly what makes it happen at this frequency. The reason I posted it here is that my friends tell me I am too sensitive to it, or it can't happen that much, but it really does. Also, "Oh it must be terrible to get compliments"

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 09:22

rest of that post:

From women too! If I am running, men will shout louder so I can hear over my headphones. The worst thing to me is someone will be walking with their young children, and some guy will make some comment about my body right in front. I feel disgusting.

I don't know what I am doing to invite this. I have tried walking everywhere scowling. That's the best I got. But even then you get "why won't you smile, baby?" "what are you mad about?" I live in NYC...but this is actually nothing compared to Boston. In Boston it was more dangerous, while here it is humiliating and annoying.

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 09:24

That whole part that mygothlaundry talks about "A lot of it has to do with confidence..."? You need to memorize it and absolutely inhabit that persona. When you're on the street you need to learn how to make these guys feel - really believe - that they are completely invisible to you; you don't see them, you don't hear them... they do not exist. Never make eye contact; walk at a fairly rapid pace (but never so fast you're breathless or look like you are trying to run away) and with concentrated purpose, eyes ahead... sorry, no, you can't stop and smell the roses or enjoy your walk in a leisurely way. No peering in shop windows, looking around to appreciate the architecture or street life. Only striding forward, back straight, eyes mostly somewhere on the horizon, expressionless. When you look around to check traffic, etc., your glance goes through or slides off anyone around you. Never pause when you don't have to, and don't stop for anyone. Don't scowl, don't smile, never react; you are a robot.

Sounds crazy, and you really don't want to do it all the time, but this works and you can get used to putting on and taking off this horrible "street-you" when you need it as though you were putting on a pair of sunglasses. (also? dark or mirrored sunglasses help.) Practice makes perfect; indulge your inner actress.

I love Greece; I don't have to use these methods anymore. Well, I'm too old now to worry anyway, but it was an astonishing relief when we moved here, and I realized that it wasn't an issue.

posted by taz 13 March | 10:20

I think you don't see it because you're a guy, CitrusFreak.

I respectfully disagree. As I stated earlier, I've had a little more than a handful of experiences myself, with varying degrees of creepiness. Even if I had some gender-induced social autism that caused me to be unaware of these things, I think the fact that I've had them happen to me would cause me to able to recognize them. As it is, I grew up with two sisters and no brothers, so I consider myself to be rather cognizant of my and other's interactions with women.

I would be absolutely flabbergasted if I heard someone say/do any of the things you've quoted people saying/doing to you. Especially to go further and make a scene by saying "Hey this lady is a bitch" because they won't talk to them. I'd probably call the police if I saw someone being harassed or threatened or chased. That's insane. If it happened to at least one person 20 times a day, I think I'd have a hard time NOT noticing.

So no, not because I'm a guy. But because I'm a guy who doesn't live in New York, or in a particular area of New York perhaps, who lacks some je ne sais quoi aspect of my personality that seems to attract unstable individuals. As I said I've had friends who have had similar experiences happen to them once, so I'm not saying it's impossible, but to have it happen with such frequency is extremely atypical.

I agree with the advice MGL and taz are giving, and really encourage you to follow it. Let us know if things improve!

posted by CitrusFreak12 13 March | 10:51

I agree with occhiblu: women are attuned to this kind of speech and behavior in a way most men aren't --- the way new parents are attuned to a baby's cries, or as someone jumps at the sound of their own car alarm but not at the neighbor's. We've spent our lives primed to notice it so we can react defensively.

And I'll back up sweetkid on the numbers: when I was a younger woman and a pedestrian, busrider, and subway-goer in a big city, yeah, 100 approaches a week sounds about right. It felt constant, which was the most disheartening aspect.

And I never knew which guys were just smiling and saying, "Hi there, pretty girl!" before moving on, and which wanted more, and (crucially) which would flip out when I didn't respond as their fantasies dictated.

(Even in a small city, I routinely got hassled every single night walking home from work. It happens, and not because we're inviting it. I see that some women in this thread miss some of the milder attention, and I can see how one might miss it, but I will pipe up as one older woman who is thrilled to have aged out of the main target range.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 11:29

Honestly, sweetkid, you don't have to be doing anything to invite this. You're young and attractive in a big city, and you've probably got an approachable face (I have one too, only mine is set to about 40% "hit on me" and 60% "ask me for directions").

Don't give up on Bitch Face yet... you might just need to fine tune it. It's more than just a scowl - it needs intent behind it. It's a serious expression, accompanied by a purposeful walk. I'm in DC, so I think about it like I'm always trying to make it to the Senate floor in order to cast a Very Important Vote, and you are In. My. Way. [Insert your Very Important Scenario here.]

Also, even though there are some guys who will yell over headphones, wearing them will still dissuade at least a few. (Every little bit helps, right?) So wear them everywhere, even if you're not playing music through them.

And you already know that dressing schlubby or screwing up your hair to deal with this is not the way to go -- it won't work, and then you've ceded these people even more power over you.

So what do you do? Live your life. Be exactly as beautiful and fabulous as you want to be, and make no apologies for it. What's that old Eleanor Roosevelt quote? "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent?" Well, no one can make you feel disgusting or ashamed without your consent either. So put it all back on them. Ignore or confront (great advice on that upthread) as you see fit.

None of this means that I think you're too sensitive, by the way. This is a real problem, and I know the utter weariness that comes from dealing with it at every single turn, every single day (not that I'm a raging hottie, but you don't have to be hot for creeps to be creeps). But you can do SO much to fight that weariness just by looking within yourself. And it's a self-fulfilling cycle... the better, more confident, less weary you feel -> the less vulnerable you seem -> the less appealing a target you are -> the fewer creeps you'll get -> the better you'll feel...

Sorry so long. I usually stay out of these threads... this is part of the reason why.

posted by somanyamys 13 March | 11:37

I would like to favorite sweetkid's 00:01 comment 8 times. Thank you.

posted by small_ruminant 13 March | 11:49

and you've probably got an approachable face (I have one too, only mine is set to about 40% "hit on me" and 60% "ask me for directions").

Don't give up on Bitch Face yet... you might just need to fine tune it.

And since you asked for advice, here's my own take on "Bitch Face," a version of which sharply reduced my street hassling as a young woman in a big city.

I don't think of it as Bitch Face; I think of it as Empty Face. When I someone hoots or catcalls or compliments my knockers, the steel shutters drop down over my expression. No scowling, no frowning, no expression at all. My eyes go empty. I am not engaged with this event. This event does not exist in my world.

In my experience, this shuts down the event a lot faster than getting angry, and it's lots less taxing (for me, anyway --- I try to keep a lid on my temper, because it's so ferocious).

For more temperate interactions in a confined space (like on the bus, where I'm most often hit on these days), I always have a book, and my response is almost invariably a fuzzy, "Hmm? Oh, I'm sorry*, I'm studying for an exam." I usually smile as I say it, but that's at my discretion.

All but the most persistent will drop it after a couple of iterations of this, with (bonus!) no hurt feelings. If someone does persist, I don't worry to much about slighting their feelings: a) they've shown an utter lack of consideration for my feelings by inerrupting my obviously intent reading and persisting when I try to disengage; b) someone that persistent shows little sensitivity to social cues and may require more obvious cues.

* Here, "I'm sorry" is toned not to express an apology, but to express "Huh? I didn't hear you, obviously, since I'm immersed in my book, you completely oblivious person."

posted by Elsa 13 March | 12:08

You know what sucks about it? You have to ignore it, you must ignore it, but it hurts to do so. It's swallowed anger, but it's potentially dangerous to respond. That's what sucks most. A passing sincere compliment may be one thing, but it's usually outright hostile words, tones, or (the worst) gestures. Also, nice guys out there who are confused about why strange women may ignore them - some of these creeps master a technique of drawing you in before slamming you with something inappropriate. That's part of their sick game.

posted by rainbaby 13 March | 12:26

I don't think of it as Bitch Face; I think of it as Empty Face.

When you're on the street you need to learn how to make these guys feel - really believe - that they are completely invisible to you; you don't see them, you don't hear them... they do not exist.
...your glance goes through or slides off anyone around you. Never pause when you don't have to, and don't stop for anyone. Don't scowl, don't smile, never react; you are a robot.

Yeah, I think Elsa and Taz are describing it better than I am. When I was first learning to do it, I achieved robot-ness, or Empty Face, or whatever you want to call it, through visualizing my Very Important Scenario. That's what sent my approachable face into the Robot zone. A different approach may work better for you, but what Elsa and Taz are describing is definitely the end goal -- you need the blankness, because otherwise they'll just try to "cheer you up, baby..."

posted by somanyamys 13 March | 12:40

Never pause when you don't have to, and don't stop for anyone.

Man, ain't that the truth. Yesterday, I (and let's illustrate this I for a moment: gray-haired, plump, limping, dressed in plain black & gray with a peacoat over it all obscuring my ~~knockers~~ figure, eyes covered by sunglasses, and blank-faced with exhaustion at the end of the day) paused and stepped to one side to let the two men walking abreast go by... and one of them decided that my stepping aside was an invitation to chat me up, so he stepped in front of me so I was trapped between a briar bush and him to see if I wanted to talk, and then acted aggrieved when I shouldered my way between him and his friend to get away.

For goodness sake, people, don't trap others in cul de sacs, corners, and prickly pathways and then be surprised when those you trap react defensively.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 12:55

I used to get harassed like this when I was younger (teens) and a lot thinner. All you need to do is eat enough so you're overweight enough to be invisible.

/not helpful

posted by deborah 13 March | 13:12

I'd just like to add this small comment for posterity: You guys who read this, and think "wha? all that sexual attention? I would love that!"? You really wouldn't. Almost all of you really, really wouldn't, not under the same conditions. For a day, maybe. Maybe for a week. Or even a month... but not year after year, and beginning when you're a child really, and have absolutely no fucking clue what's going on. It's not flattering or reassuring or exciting 90 to 99% of the time, and it's often frightening, sickening, humiliating. It's reliably maddening, irritating, exhausting.

I think it's highly unlikely that any of you do the things that have been described here, but try to remember, when you are just being normal, friendly, polite, and some woman seems to act like a stuck-up bitch - that she probably doesn't want to act that way any more than you want her to act that way... and that it most likely has nothing to do with you, and everything to do with her just trying to make it through the day getting from point A to point B without going Columbine.

posted by taz 13 March | 13:39

I was first shocked at this when I was 12, walking the 2km home from school, uphill. In my gross pea-green and grey school uniform, sweaty, grody, and some guys in their 30s in a car started hooting and hollering and begging me to get my 'sweet self' in the car. I was totally WTF and horrified. Since then, I have perfected the empty face and ignore, ignore, ignore. NOT if they touch me - that gets a sound torrent of abuse and threats to call the police "if you don't Get. Your. Fucking. Hands. Off. Me. NOW". Extra fun in a crowded train.

I'd favourite taz' comment above this one if I could.

posted by goo 13 March | 14:08

taz, yes yes YES YES YES, godammit!

posted by Specklet 13 March | 14:13

I honestly cannot believe that people live their every-day-lives going through this shit. It sounds like a movie. It must just be a perk of living in Alaska, but damn.

After reading other descriptions of peoples Bitch Face, I realize that mine is anything but. Whenever I'm in a public place - like one of our two malls, or at the grocery store - I make a point to not make eye contact with anyone and to walk quickly and purposefully. But I've never been approached, or feared being approached, in this extreme manner. I haven't even heard of friends being hit on this way.

Hell, when my boyfriend and I were visiting San Francisco last summer I discovered how completely oblivious to most stree-smarts type things. I was pulling out my shiny new DSLR while he was yelling at me to put it away because of a drug deal going on a mere 20 feet away. These kinds of things just aren't a part of my world.

I feel sick knowing that women have to deal with this multiple times of the day, and that there are men like pie who want to toss them into traffic because of their coping mechanisms.

posted by rhapsodie 13 March | 14:28

I'm really feeling better with the later comments on this thread ( no doubt due to the fact that it's daytime now and not midnight when the whole "dammitthesewomenonbuses" fiasco was going down. I think Empty Face + glasses really might help me out. Also, thanks small_ruminant: I've been favorited maybe once on AskMeFi.

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 14:37

I don't think of it as Bitch Face; I think of it as Empty Face

Indeed, and wearing sunglasses, like others mention, helps a lot, which is probably one reason I always do- I can see someone from behind my shades, but they can't see if I've noticed them.

I do get a lot less attention than I used to when I first moved to New York, and I was trying to think of why. I think I did used to be a lot more open to and patient with attention, particularly when I was single- and of course, now I often travel with a man who is clearly with me, which helps cut down on it, too.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 13 March | 15:00

I think that what I meant upthread about "angry eyes" is what y'all are calling Empty Face - staring straight ahead or at your destination, sliding away from any eye contact. Really, sweetkid, I think that might help you a lot.

posted by muddgirl 13 March | 15:17

Yeah, TPS, having a man with you is a giant help. Alas...

posted by sweetkid 13 March | 15:24

I try to walk around with 'hungry eyes,' but the only person it ever attracts is Patrick Swayze. It might be time for a new strategy.

posted by box 13 March | 15:26

sweetkid, I find it confusing that you are the same person who posted a question on AskMe saying that guys in NYC are too shy to walk up to women and asking about approaching them on the street. Am I missing something?

posted by amro 13 March | 15:31

I'm packing your angry eyes, just in case.

posted by danostuporstar 13 March | 15:32

Sweetkid, you're not the only one who found the middle part of the thread unsettling. It exactly mirrored my unpleasant experiences of being chatted up by strangers: it started out innocuous, and veered quickly into vitriol.

I understand that some men get frustrated to get the Empty Face when all they're doing is smiling or saying hi. I don't understand why so many men (people, yes... but it's mostly men) appear to think that they're entitled to impose their attentions upon me regardless of my schedule, mood, or frame of mind.

To reiterate taz's remark for posterity, I would like to stress to men reading this: you know how civil and harmless you are when you come up to us, smiling and chatting. We don't. We cannot read your intent, and we have had too many seemingly innocuous interactions spin out of control into blatant sexual objectifying, streams of invective, furtive fumbling, wank-sessions, or worse.

I'm not saying that I flatly refuse to interact with strangers or that I walk around with Empty Face on all day, just that strangers don't get to dictate my response to their overtures. I, like them, am a person complete with a schedule, a train of thought, and a mood, which may or may not make me want to indulge their immediate desire for idle chatter, particularly when experience has taught me that what starts as idle chatter may well end up as a request for a date, a phone number, or a hand job, and that when I demur, it may easily turn into a far more hostile encounter.

Why punctuate my day with potentially hostile or violent interactions with strangers?

This AskMe thread addresses the question of interactions with strangers. It's a great conversation, notably this comment of Miko's.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 15:33

The weirdest thing to ever happen to me was outside my church, oddly enough- I walked out the side door with a group of people including my boyfriend. I walked alone to the corner to look at something or pick up something, and a group of people that looked like a family walked toward me- a small child, a woman that could have been the mother of that child, and two men. But as the group walked by, the second man walked just a little too close and did or said something in a low creepy voice- it wasn't something with naughty words or anything, but in the context of everything it was very odd, and I was left staring after the group like, really? I'm outside my church? Really? And my friends are right over there? And you're either with that group of people or walking close enough to them to use them as a cover? Really?

And, on preview, the question amro is referring to.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 13 March | 15:34

I remember that question. The biggest difference*: active vs. passive. Many men routinely say how much they would love more active attention from women, and maybe they actually would like it**, assuming it's not pervasive and constant. The background culture is different for men, simply because men haven't been immersed their whole lives in a pool of sexual objectification and sexual threat from strangers and acquaintances.

* Actually, the biggest difference is this: from the AskMe thread, it doesn't look like she planned to approach these men by hollering "WHOOO, hot ass, you have got one hot ass! Wanna get into my car, pretty baby?"

** My own experience bears this out anecdotally: when I was single and interested in someone, I almost always made the first move by asking him out. To a man, they responded with beaming goony smiles, not with ambivalence or shifting eyes. I posit that they were a) flattered and b) boggled by the novelty of it.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 16:02

*** aka Men should be treated as rapists by default.

posted by danostuporstar 13 March | 16:06

How are you getting that from Elsa's comment, dano? Honest question.

posted by Specklet 13 March | 16:10

dano, it really doesn't take too many instances of men grabbing you, physically threatening you, that while maybe you don't treat them as rapists by default, you certainly don't engage at all. Is the thought process really so difficult to imagine?

posted by gaspode 13 March | 16:11

(men doing so on the street, I mean, when you don't respond to them the way they were expecting.)

posted by gaspode 13 March | 16:12

Not getting it from Elsa's comment, Specklet. Just another 'difference' that was noted in the thread.

No, gaspode, not difficult to imagine or necessarily unreasonable. It just sucks to think I can't ask a stranger for directions without scaring them, just because I have a penis. (And I'm not claiming the suckage is on a level with the harassment.)

posted by danostuporstar 13 March | 16:16

*** aka Men should be treated as rapists by default.

I would reframe that as "Strangers who impose their will on mine are suspicious by default."

If/when I approach a stranger for whatever reason, I fully expect them to treat me with suspicion. If my civility disarms that suspicion, they may choose to interact with me. If not, that's their choice and I don't kick up a fuss.

All I ask is the same civility.

I believe all I said was that women are more often sexually hassled, grabbed, and attacked than men are. If I said something else, please point it out to me.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 16:18

It just sucks to think I can't ask a stranger for directions without scaring them, just because I have a penis.

Do you think it suck more for you that this is the case? Or more for the women who have to be constantly in defensive mode?

posted by Specklet 13 March | 16:22

Yeah, dano, it does suck. I honestly feel that way. But when it comes down to it, what else can a woman do? I mean, I've been grabbed at like that 3 or 4 times, and once fought off a serious attack (the latter in a small town in New Zealand, not in NY or Baltimore - where I was never touched fwiw) and I doubt I've had atypical experiences. I'm sorry, but I'm going to take my personal safety and comfort above a strange man's feelings.

posted by gaspode 13 March | 16:30

It just sucks to think I can't ask a stranger for directions without scaring them, just because I have a penis.

I think that's an overstatement, in most cases. There are ways to approach a stranger (male or female) non-confrontationally, which can tone down the suspicious response.

Did you read my remark upthread about an encounter yesterday, where a stranger wanted to talk to me, so he and his friend hemmed me in on both sides with a briar hedge behind me?

If instead of stepping directly in front of me, that guy had stepped aside and said, "Excuse me, ma'am," I would have stopped to see what he wanted. He didn't, so I pushed past him. Someone who tries to corner me is suspicious to me, however innocent his/her intent.

Experience tells me this is going to go badly. Logic tells me we should be able to discuss this civilly, with respect for each other. In that way, this conversation resembles the street encounters that are the subject of this thread: it should be fine, but all too often, it turns ugly.

I really like you, danostuporstar, so I hope logic is right.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 16:37

Thank you, Elsa, that's what I meant to say. Sorry for the whiny tone in my last comment.

posted by Specklet 13 March | 16:43

Not whiny. It does suck when interactions that should be civil, maybe even cordial, turn ugly because we cannot or will not try to understand each other.

Speaking of which, my small type remark wasn't aimed at danostuporstar any more than it was aimed at me. I urgently want to keep any discussion here civil... maybe even cordial!

posted by Elsa 13 March | 16:54

The thread that would not sleep.

OK men, here is a secret. You can say hi to whomever you want. Within certain bounds of decorum, you can say whatever you want to women when you encounter them in public places.

Where you get your nose bent out of shape is when you expect a certain OUTCOME. You do not know that person's backstory, and as we have read above, there may be very unpleasant experiences in someone's past.

So, you're a nice guy. The problem is that you take on a feeling of rejection, then resentment, because you got blown off, ignored, or got some sort of reaction that you feel was not commensurate to what a great gent you are. Well that's the way the world is. In the big scheme of things, they (the women) have reason for behaving as they do, AND, the more you have invested in this encounter the more you feel "gosh I'm a good guy, why can't you see that?" the more they will pick this up, women generally being perceptive people (esp. the ones in here) and not want any part of you.

The corollary to that is the less you have invested in the outcome, the more (at least initially) open the person will be to interacting, probably. Unless they are having a bad day. But then you don't have an investment in the outcome, so no hard feelings.

posted by danf 13 March | 17:18

I know how to make it stop. Turn 35.

posted by dabitch 13 March | 17:37

Thanks, danf. I won't let this thread die because I still wub everyone in it. It's that expectation that we should be nice to someone, because they're a nice person, that bothers a lot of people.

posted by muddgirl 13 March | 17:38

danf, that was perfect.

posted by Specklet 13 March | 17:41

danf, exactly!

posted by rainbaby 13 March | 17:45

Exactly perfect. It's like the Buddhist approach to friendly interaction with strangers. :-)

posted by occhiblu 13 March | 17:56

Yeah, what danf said. But I still think it sucks and will continue to be a tiny bit pissed off every time it bubbles into my consciousness that women think I am on the verge of tearing their clothes off and having my evil way with them at every opportunity. I mean, I understand why, I just don't like it. Never have, never will.

taz (as usual) hits the spot, too and that was the sort of comment that makes me wish for favourites here, because it's worth noting that the comment contains basic truths in a very elegant manner.

The comments about sunglasses made me realise that, in a much more minor way, I do the "street face" thing on public transport. I absolutely do not desire interaction with people on the train and a pair of sunglasses and earphones make it clear to people that I don't want to make small talk about the weather. Prior to adopting what someone in my office described as my "commuter armour", people always seemed to want to talk to me about the weather and shit. Yeah, I'm a bad person because I don't want to talk to you, but that's tough. In a way (no, not equating a lack of desire for small talk with a fear of assault), the situation is similar, I guess and the solution is the same - shut yourself off from the world (I always have my earphones in, even if I am sitting in silence, to make it clear that I don't want to be talked to) and the world will leave you alone, mostly. Well, I guess some guys will not leave attractive women alone, but surely it will decrease the incidence?

dabitch, you might stop the comments from spotty teenagers by turning 35, but you sure won't stop attracting attention, albeit more discreetly. Well, at least from middle-aged, balding men wearing sunglasses and earphones ;-) They just won't talk to you for fear of being maced in response.

posted by dg 13 March | 18:23

You do not have to be a potential rapist for me to not want to deal to you.
And what is the problem with discretion, exactly?

posted by ethylene 13 March | 18:36

I'm kind of glad I missed most of this thread.

Pie, while I found what you said kind of disturbing and offensive (and I'm pretty hard to offend), I can kind of, sort of understand. Sometimes it can feel like the entire female gender is ignoring you or brushing you off and that can make you kind of bitter, until you realize something: it isn't neccessarily about you. She may have had abad day, she may have had four zillion strange guys hit on her, and she ultimately dosen't know you from a can of paint and an urban enviornment can make some people keep their guard up. And, as someone who rides public transportation daily and loves talking to strangers, I can tell you that the bus or the train isn't usually the best enviornment for conversation, especially that kind of conversation. People just wanna get where they're going or zone out after a long day. If you werer at a bar or a coffee shop, that same girl might've loved talking to you, because those are places people go to to socialize. Like I said before, context is everything, so's reading cues.

posted by jonmc 13 March | 18:48

You really don't know why someone refuses to acknowledge you. It may be that they're having a bad day, or they don't want unwanted attention or they're tired or they're scared or they're just bad people.

As seanyboy says (and, on preview, jonmc says above), regardless of gender, sexual chemistry, and all that stuff, you don't know why someone is ignoring you or shutting down your overtures.

You do not have to be a potential rapist for me to not want to deal to you.

As ethylene says, you don't have to be a threat to be intrusive. Anyone with a habit of thrusting themselves into conversation with reluctant strangers should also be prepared to be brushed off, for any reason or for none.

Once upon a time, someone breezed up to me on the street, flashed a grin, and asked, "Why not give me a smile, sweetheart?"

I blinked at him. He persisted, so I flatly told him the truth: "My partner died yesterday." Mister Smiley blenched and walked away.

I admit that after the fact, I got a certain grim satisfaction from this exchange. Some nitwit with absolutely no connection to me thought he should impose upon me his desire to see a morose-looking young woman smiling. My circumstances reminded him, I hope, that I wasn't an ornament or an accessory to his day, but an actual person with a whole unknown, complicated history.

I'm not saying one shouldn't talk to strangers, just that if you choose to impose your attention on strangers, you should be aware that they may simply not be in the mood, and they don't have any responsibility to play along with you.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 19:09

Who are these people that act like this towards women, anyway? I just can't fathom the thought processes that sit behind this kind of behaviour.

posted by dg 13 March | 19:13

Maybe it worked once.

posted by ethylene 13 March | 19:18

≡ Click to see image ≡

posted by ethylene 13 March | 19:21

Who are these people that act like this towards women, anyway?

It depends, probably, on what you mean by "act like this." If you mean the guys who ask unknown women to smile, in my experience they tend to be older men, and they appear to think it's a nice thing to say, not a demand that women conform to some image they carry around in their heads. If you mean guys who hoot "Sweet baby, you are superfine! Shake it!", or who holler sexual imperatives, well, I cannot explain that behavior.

I will say this: in this comment, just typing out "WHOOO, hot ass, you have got one hot ass! Wanna get into my car, pretty baby?" gave me a weird frisson of mixed hilarity and taboo-breaking. I now wonder if people who holler out sexual remarks to passing strangers do it not because it gets them laid or makes them feel powerful and threatening (as is so often suggested), but because it feels so weird and fun to transgress social boundaries in this way.

Or, uh, maybe that's just me. Cut to scene of Elsa lounging on the street corner, hollering "Hey, sexy mister, wanna shake those sweet cheeks my way?"

posted by Elsa 13 March | 19:30

Cut to scene of Elsa lounging on the street corner, hollering "Hey, sexy mister, wanna shake those sweet cheeks my way?"

If any woman ever did that to me, I probably would just for posterity's sake. (although the one time a woman did yell at me on the street- a blown kiss from a bus window followed by a 'hey sexy!' I assume she was nearsighted or did it on a dare) left me too stunned to do anything but stand there with my mind boggling.

posted by jonmc 13 March | 19:42

but because it feels so weird and fun to transgress social boundaries in this way.

I can say that yes this is most likely a factor in some cases.

posted by CitrusFreak12 13 March | 20:20

Sorry all, I shouldn't have snarked when I didn't have time to explain myself properly.

Elsa, my reaction was addressed more towards No Right To Be Presumed Harmless, which I found pretty offensive and quit unhelpful, than towards the substance of your comments. This thread reminded me of the metatalk thread you mentioned also, but I have pretty negative memories of it. People complaining about being asked directions conflated with people saying they felt physically sick for an entire day because some guy tried to talk to them. So, when you delimited the "differences" between sweetkid's "Hey you, gorgeous. Yeah, you." thread and this "Helloooo" thread and failed to mention the No Right To Be Presumed Harmless factor, well... I lost my resolve to stay out of this thread, as well as my cool, and I apologize for that, Elsa.

On preview, I see pi has started a thread. I guess I'll head over there rather than ramble on here.

posted by danostuporstar 13 March | 20:58

It used to happen to me all the time too when I was in my 20s and lived in bigger cities.

Just n-thing the fact that street harassment is pretty constant for some women. I was one of those women once, as a young 20-something, a bit unsure of myself, thin, always traveling alone in a city, no car.

Now, 20 years later, my life vis a vis street harassment is so different. I'm older, a bit less thin, I have a car, my clothes are less less girl-y (just what I like now), I'm comfortable in my skin, I have no uncertainty as to who I'm willing to deal with and who I'm not willing to deal with, I'm not anxious or unsure, I'm at home at an earlier hour.

In this way way more pleasant context, I often will talk to people on the bus or at the store or whatever. It's just completely different.

Two thoughts --

First -- please do not conclude that (especially young) women are exaggerating simply because it is inconceivable to you. It really does happen. I remember. (And I'm *so* glad it's not my life now. I honestly do not miss it at all.)

Second -- when I was a young woman, sometimes unsure, still experimenting with how to be in the world and how to be WRT sexuality, that's who I was. There were strategies I could adopt to deter street harassment, and I did. But I could not will myself into an older (looking and acting) and assertive person. I mean, it's just part of the situation, the reality of our f-ed up world, that many young woman must adopt these strategies (that later can, to some extent, though not totally, fall away).

posted by Claudia_SF 13 March | 21:40

Enh, I turn 40 in 9 weeks, am 60 pounds overweight and getting a gray streak and I STILL get harassed. I've said it before...I had less crap in Boston at the weight I should be than I have in NYC. Also, I've had sexist butches behave exactly the same way to me.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

posted by brujita 13 March | 22:34

This thread reminded me of the metatalk thread you mentioned also, but I have pretty negative memories of it.

Ah! That may be part of the problem: I linked to an AskMe thread that was thoroughly civil and (to me) fascinating. (Really! Lovely to read!)

But if you thought I was linking to one of the more acrimonious MeTa threads (most of which, due to odd scheduling, I read days after they had wrapped up, and I read them with great interest but also with a sick, sinking feeling), you would reasonably suspect me of trying to stir up trouble, not have an open conversation.

I hope that suspicion is at least somewhat ameliorated. I feel strongly about this topic (and even more strongly that I have a responsibility not to let better-known feminist posters do all the hard lifting in uncomfortable threads), but I hope I'm civil and reasonable. When I'm not, call me on it.

posted by Elsa 13 March | 23:02

But if you thought I was linking to one of the more acrimonious MeTa threads ...

To be fair, I thought you were linking to the acrimonious MeTa thread related to the askme, but yes, a bit of confusion on my part.

And, to be clear, I do/did not suspect you of of trying to stir up trouble. Some things in this thread made me angry and you happened to be standing nearby when it bubbled over into a bit o' snark and I've apologized for that. But please do not imply that I ever challenged your motives for posting to this thread (as I dislike it when people question others' good faith).

So what did make me angry if it wasn't you? Well, here is how some things read in my head. Starting on the front page: Today a man got in my face and leered "Helloooo" all while toting a three year old boy, who mimicked his role model's disgusting gesture.

Ok, some guy said hello to sweetkid (a new name to me) in a way she(?) found lewd. Because of this "disgusting gesture" (did he flick his tongue as he spoke?), I'm apparently supposed to judge the man's fitness as a father. There's [More:] ... ok, lady, show me what you got.

{No, dude, don't do it. It'll just be another rant about catcalling that will piss you off and confuse you*. And aren't you trying to give the bunnies their space?} (Aww, but maan, there's 89 comments...you know something went down. And maybe there's a good story about this lewd man and his kid. C'mon, just a peek, we'll stay quiet.) {Hmm, ok.}

I click inside and indeed the post is more general rant than specifics about the most recent incident. That's cool, sweetkid needs to vent and that's part of what we're here for.

I read on. Hmm, pi is having a bit of breakdown, says some bad things and gets called on it but also gets some understanding from the community. Metachat is so cool like that.

Then "No Right To Be Presumed Harmless". Ug, that doesn't sound like it's gonna help cool things down {well, of course, I don't have a right regarding anybody's thoughts but my own}, but I give it a read.

And, you know, the basic premise of the piece is pretty spot on. A stranger should not expect graciousness when approaching other strangers in a fucked-up world (and the approaching stranger should not escalate if met with curtness). But there's an underlying current to the piece that places guilt on all men, who the poster annoyingly calls his "brothers". Now, I don't talk to people on street ... I'm not in the market for love and am painfully shy to boot, so I shouldn't really care about what this guy is saying. But it kind of read like I could be walking along minding my own business and some woman could scowl at me as I pass her because she justifibly sees me as some sort of threat and that not only should I ignore her rudeness but I should be grateful that she's reminded of all the crap in the world and shouldn't I really be doing something to fix it? And, well,... no. I don't accept responsibility for the behavior of assholes just because they have something in common with me.

So, the thread moves on and sweetgirl gets good constructive answers to her problem, and pi seems to have moved on for some well-needed time away from the computer. Then sweetkid comes back and says she "feels better" now that a longtime contributor here has kind of flamed-out. Well, good for you, honey. (No, that's not really what she said, that's sort of how it sounded to me.)

And, then, it turns out sweetkid asked metafilter how to get the attention of "Hey-you-gorgeous-Yeah-you" on the streets on NYC because gorgeous is too being too shy to approach her. Which gets me looking through the rest of her askme posts, where she seems a little hung up on her looks and a little weird (you're afraid of your mailbox?) But, again, that's cool. We're all a little weird here and that's part of what we're here for.

And, then, I find of that instead of addressing Amro's point here, she's started another thread in which some "legit" agent has apparently discovered her and she's decided to take up acting but ... could, you know, she do it on the side, because, well she's too busy or something to put hard work into it (hard work like a bunch of other community members are doing).

And, then, well, my head kinda asploded a little and I was a bad bunny and I regret my comment. Oh well, that's where I am. Cool?

sweetkid, some of my later paragraphs above may sound pretty harsh on you. Please know that 90% of what I'm saying comes from my own personal issues, and that I understand that parts of those parts aren't really reasonable or fair to you. I'm making an effort to share my point of view thoughtfully, and I hope you can read my comments with that in mind, and can forgive me if I've failed. I have no reason to believe you are anything but a good person and look forward to reading and learning from your future contributions here.

* There's an anecdote that sort of illustrates what I mean by confusion that I'd like to get bunny feedback on sometime that maybe I'll post eventually.

posted by danostuporstar 14 March | 11:56

Did you read the comments on "No Right to be Presumed Harmless"? I think that, by and large, the author explained his/herself much better there than in the post itself.

posted by muddgirl 14 March | 12:04

I read the first half or so, and you're right. The comments from African-American men were also interesting.

posted by danostuporstar 14 March | 12:14

I agree with muddgirl, I think the comments in "No Right to Be Presumed Harmless" are quite interesting. I think what struck me were the comments about how women are raised to be accommodating and warm socially, and this is what predators count on. We're socialized to smile at strangers, do favors, etc, and it can get us into trouble very quickly. That's what makes gauging interactions so difficult.

I don't know if the guy who leered at me was a bad father, or even if he was the child's father, but I just mentioned it because I think that's a bad example for children. I thought it was a disgusting gesture because he got inches from my face, which invaded my personal space and was threatening.

posted by sweetkid 14 March | 12:58

in big cities u need to wear sunglasses year round. and an ipod to block out the comments. or just use both.

but that 'bad example for children' thing you wrote above is kinda wack. i don't really think a 3-year-old child understands that his parent/guardian is flirting/greeting/whatever a random girl who walks by on the street.

and if unwanted comments from strangers is the worst sexual harassment you've experienced so far in your life, consider yourself lucky.

posted by scala di seta 14 March | 21:58

I practiced "empty face" today and it seems to be a giant improvement over bitchface. If anyone still reads this, thanks!

posted by sweetkid 14 March | 22:09

Sorry you had to use it, but glad it helped.

posted by occhiblu 14 March | 22:41

Yay, sweetkid! Glad it's working.

posted by somanyamys 15 March | 15:10

Thanks! It's really been amazing, how well it's working. I walked through an area that was usually catcall central and got (almost) nothing. I think I was too aware, when I saw these guys, what was going to follow. But now that I'm doing empty face, it really doesn't matter. They don't get any reaction. I guess they were enjoying Bitchface. Awesome.

posted by sweetkid 15 March | 22:40

12 March 2008