I could help you with the reverse, if that would help. No? Thought not ;-)

Uh, like when MuddDude and I were living 90 miles apart for three months, seeing each other on the weekends, and he was so miserable the entire time that he eventually dropped out of school and moved in with me?

Or are we talking more about "he's a complete wreck, but I love him anyway" type of a deal?

mudd: Close on both counts. Except things got difficult once we lived in the same city.

When The Boyfriend and I first started dating, we couldn't figure out how to argue, and I swear it was almost the death of us. I would get mad and shout, and then he would sit there silently, and we'd end up in a standoff that would last for hours. I'd think, "This is it. We can't make it work. We're going to break up, and all because we can't have a good fight!"

But, six years later, we have finally learned to get through things of this sort, and I'm fairly sure we're not breaking up any time soon. (Although I'll have to dump the boy if Jon Stewart shows up on my doorstep, automagically stretched to 6'4" and utterly in love with me.)

If both of you are still in it, really in it, then keep trying. You may be right about being onto something really good. And you know, those first six months can be pretty tough.

eh, try three years of that. Well, not consistently banging my head against the wall, or I wouldn't have a skull anymore, but many many months of questioning "How can this possibly work?" I think it was his faith in us that kept me going, as well as our willingness to work on destructive but entrenched habits.

I think it helps to be able to parse the difference between "he's a complete wreck and he's not worth my time" and "He's a complete wreck but he knows that and is willing to take steps to fix it." My ex-boyfriend was in the first category, and we lasted less than six months before I figured it out.

My fiance has been in the second category. The major difference is that his values are solid. He fights fair, he's not a compulsive liar, he doesn't cheat, he doesn't drink to excess. If a man is dishonest, abusive, drug/alcohol addicted, or a thief, then IMHO he's not worth staying around to "fix." If he's just lazy with some money problems, that's a different story. As long as he has good values, he'll man up eventually. He may just need a wakeup call though, which is what my man got when I threatened to leave. He's been a joy to be around since then.

It was the enduring part that was the disaster for my ex and I.

Me! It started out amazing, and has stayed amazing. "I love you" within a week of meeting, on our second date. Moving in together after 4 months. 6 years later, just dreamy.

But she struggles with clinical depression. I have serious baby-momma drama. And we both carry heavy baggage from our upbringing and our previous marriages--passive-aggressiveness, fighting, outright abuse of several natures. With us, it's not so much the fights, but the days when both of us are too messed up with our other problems to deal with each other's that cause us both, not tension, really, but sadness. Days of sadness.

So, therapy. We've been going for months (years? damn, guess it's been years). And we still struggle. But, goddamnit, we're good together, in ways that are simply unimaginable to anyone who's not found something similar.

It's not about me changing her or her changing me--that'd send me packing in an instant. I'm not a project, and she's not Eliza-freakin'-Doolittle. Usually, I can see how (what I perceive as) her flaws are necessary flip-sides to things I like about her--her "over sensitivity" means that she can be wonderfully empathetic and understanding when I'm down, or like how my passionate nature means my enthusiasm for someting is likely to be balanced by my unyielding opposition to something else. Stuff like that.

Sometimes, though, I just have to accept her as she is, flaws and all, and she has to do the same for me. Better off with her than without her.

Brina's got it: learn how to argue. Or, put a different way, learn to disagree productively and sort it out calmly and constructively.

My gf of 2.5 years and I used to have these bizarre disagreements where we just couldn't see eye-to-eye. I'd think I'd already expressed a certain thing, she wouldn't rest until it had been articulated a certain way, and we both felt browbeaten even though it was completely unintentional all around. I tend to do anything to avoid conflict, and she is more assertive, so we've come to meet in the middle. We're also each in individual therapy, working on our own issues, and as we learn more about ourselves we find that we work better together as well.

Do you spend too much time together? Not enough? Too much stressful time together but not enough QT?

Sometimes, though, I just have to accept her as she is, flaws and all, and she has to do the same for me. Better off with her than without her.

Exactly. It can't be about changing each other, or about getting steam-rollered by the crazy. If it's going to work, in the long run, you have to find a way to turn yourselves until the broken parts don't poke each other, if you know what I mean.

muddgirl, that was beautiful!

I agree with all that not changing each other stuff. Accepting.

With that caveat, I think you do find out in the first six to nine months what might be deal breakers, and if they are relatively minor (as minor as a deal breaker can be, I guess, which is pretty big), then there is that chance to lay some ground rules earlier on. Once you accept or turn an eye from behaviors, you're sort of signed up to keep doing that, and if that's going to kill your soul slowly, then that's no good. Saying "don't say that or do that around me" is acceptable because it doesn't tell the other person not to say/do that thing, just that you won't tolerate it in your presence. They get to say stuff like that back to you, too. Then if they persist, or you persist, the rule maker sticks by it and leaves, or the rule gets swept away.

I broke a habit of my husband early on in the relationship, and now twelve years later, he'll talk passionately about how wrong it is when people say/do what he used to. It's like his whole brain got re-wired in a certain area.

We also both have accepted one thing on each side that seemed huge for a long time, but are now turned around so they don't poke, at least for the most part.

It's hard. Good luck.

We are none of us left whole, the world breaks us up/
But we are beautiful when we lay so our ragged edges do not touch

Thanks, rainbaby. I was ripping off Miko's lyric, actually, but I thought it might be stalkerish if I quoted it from memory... :)

I agree with desjardins: "As long as he has good values, he'll man up eventually."

Staying in a LTR always seems to me like keeping an older car running and on the road. You don't want/can't afford a new car, but you also can't afford to fix everything right away that needs to be fixed.

So you defer some stuff (alignment, shocks, small leaks) and hop on others (timing belt, brakes, etc) because you have gotten a feeling about what items if, ignored, will result in the loss of the car, and the other things that are minor inconveniences.

And, mostly, it'll get you where you want to go.

What's that lyric from? Google ain't saying.

I got the impression it was from Miko.

Ah. Well in that case, muddgirl plagiarized presciently, which is pretty impressive.

I mean, I got the impression it was from one of Miko's songs, which muddgirl had heard previously, but didn't want to quote for fear of sounding like she was stalking Miko. So she summarized, and then Miko came in and gave the actual lyrics, and then muddgirl explained why she had summarized.

And then you asked where the lyric was from, and I said it was from Miko, and then you seemed confused, and then I went on a totally ridiculous mission to summarize the last few comments, except my summary is now longer than the comments themselves, I think, and I suspect we are no further along, but I'm all jittery because one of my so-called friends just sent me one of those "Concentrate really hard on the details of this picture and do this delicate maneuvering with your mouse and then OMG ZOMBIE SCREAM" deals and I'm still jittery and should probably never speak to that friend again, because dude, what is it, 2002 or something?

Oh, I see. See, I thought you were either being a smartass, 'cause when I said "Where's that from," you said "It's from Miko, duh." But then I started considering the fact that maybe you knew something I didn't. Then I settled on the fact that you had missed muddgirl's admission of having stolen and altered the lyrics, but that also led me back to my initial assumption that you were being a little occhiblu smartass.

But your theory is a good one, and it provides a whole new explanation that I HAD NOT EVER CONSIDERED!!!

And at this point, I'm really just trying to type a response that's longer than yours, for no other reason than to be bratty. And that makes me feel sort of guilty. So I'd like to apologize to muddgirl first, for not understanding; and to miko, for not immediately recognizing that the beautiful lines were hers; and to mykescipark ultimately, for totally derailing his thread. I have had quite a bit too much coffee this morning, and it's making me kinda punchy.

*warms hands from mudpuppie's caffeine glow*

I have had quite a bit too much coffee this morning, and it's making me kinda punchy.

We've all been there **scrounges up 50 cents for another cuppa. I'm still confused, but I'll accept that everyone's contrite and/or apologetic.

Well, I was being a smartass, but not in the way you thought; I basically had spent a long time trying to figure out the same question you were asking, and had come to my conclusion as the only answer that seemed to take everyone's otherwise-confusing comments into account, so I was being the kind of smartass who waves her hand wildly in the front row and yells, "I KNOW THE ANSWER! CALL ON ME!!!" and makes everyone else roll their eyes.

And now, in contrition, I will rerail:

One thing that I've been trying to focus on lately, in many areas of my life, is my habit of believing that when things are bad, that's the "real situation," and when things are good, we're all somehow just "pretending" or "glossing over something." The highs are just as "real" as the lows; the way we act in good situations is just as indicative, if not more indicative, of who we are as people as the ways we act in bad situations.

Or, as one of my professors said yesterday, "A bunch of you just said that things are going really well, which makes you nervous that they're going to change. When things are really bad, do you *also* get nervous because they're going to change and get better? You can't look at happiness as a temporary state if you don't also look at sadness as a temporary state."

OK, since occhiblu just guessed at the answer, I'll say it's off the album Miko submitted to the RPM challenge in 2006, Both Ends of a Gun, although I don't remember the name of the song - something about a trail. Anyway, I listen to it all the time and I stalk her music obsessively, and now I'm all embarrased to reveal how much of a fangirl I am.

Anyway, back to mykescipark's question... umm... sorry, I just got distracted - I think two of my coworkers are making out in a car right outside my window...

You don't know how amazing it is to think that folks I haven't met yet find good stuff in the music I made. It's one of the greatest things I've experienced in life.

Of course there are people who hate it too, but as occhiblu says, the highs are as real as the lows! Thanks muddgirl!

For honesty's sake, I have to say that the "broken edges" idea was not original to me. It was something I heard or read somewhere, maybe from a therapist I had at that time, and thought it was so beautiful. I worked really hard to make it fit the meter of that song so I could get the thought in, which was the main thought of that song, and I'm not sure it came out naturally or not. But it had to go there because (swinging back around to the topic) that song ("Strange Mosaic") was about an imperfect relationship that has since ended. But the thing is: I totally needed to have that relationship anyway.

Being committed to another person seems to be just about the hardest thing that we willingly do in life. The rewards are many, but so are the challenges. Danf's analogy is great, though - as long as it's running, as long as the idea of calling it quits is one you resist instead of entertain with relief, then something is there worth exploring. Whether or not that thing is there 80 years from now is less important than the thought that the work you are doing together is helping you both grow, and something is keeping you working at it. If there comes a day when the engine drops out and the chassis is just too rusted to bother trying a new engine and it's nice weather to ride your bike, you can always live without the car. But if it's still getting you where you need to go, and you think that it can run well again, there's no need for a trade-in.

I'll try and post that song later when I get home. Lyrics here.

Thanks for the lyrics, Miko.

Er, um, minor typo in 2nd line of second verse, uh, ahem, sorry, can't help it.

You see, where I grew up, we say "unkown," it's kind of a regional accent...no, forget it. I made mistake! I will fix when I get home! Thank you very much! I kiss you!

Well certainly if you can kown something, then you can unkown it. That's just common sense.

For the record, I'm totally fine with this derail. I'm a little emotionally overwhelmed at the moment, so getting my arms around the depth and variety of (relevant) responses may take a while.

Man up? Really? Or did you mean grow up?

Okay. I'll try to summarize.

I'm 31. I just moved all the way across the country after losing one of my moms to cancer. He's 27. We met in the desert and had a long-distance romance for three months before I got my act together to move out here. Which, I reiterate, was a decision already in progress and not to do with him.

But my life has been in total chaos since August. I saw Mom for the very last time just before the Burn, and met him out there only a few days later. Since then, everything in my life has changed. I left my home city of 12 years, along with my job, my friends, and all of my familiar places. I lost Mom. I lost the house I grew up in. I had to put everything I owned into storage and move out here with nothing. I've since lived in four different cities in as many months while ricocheting my way across the country to get here. If one of us should be bringing the crazy in this relationship, by rights you'd think it was me.

He's young, inexperienced in relationships, and guided by some heavy spiritual principles. (Let me say that this last part is in no way a deal-breaker, as we are actually very compatible on this level.) So he's got a whole bunch of qualities he's looking for in a relationship and a whole lot of Higher Power to answer to. But, while he talks a good game, deep down I think he's actually rather unsure about what he wants.

This has led to some rather significant puzzlement on both sides.

Despite which, I think he's amazing. He and I are hugely spiritually compatible. We're both artists/entertainers. We share creative philosophies and outlooks on life. We are passionate, charitable, empathetic, and intelligent. We can talk for hours and we make each other laugh. At the very least, we are incredibly good friends. But I nonetheless argue that our connection is exceptional and still want to pursue the relationship.

That's the short version of the story. There's all sorts of chiaroscuro in there too.

If both of you are still in it, really in it, then keep trying. You may be right about being onto something really good.

As noted above, I am occasionally unclear as to where he is on the "in it" part. Two weeks ago he was professing absolute adoration (as he often has), but then we had an inconclusive, breaky-uppy-leaning conversation (which we sometimes do) last weekend. His communication since then has been a totally flaky mix of reconciliatory and surefooted. (Like I said, not sure what he wants.) I'm taking a few days away from the nuttiness to get clear on my side of the bargain once and for all, and to set some basic, sanity-preserving ground rules if I decide this is worth pursuing further.

I think it helps to be able to parse the difference between "he's a complete wreck and he's not worth my time" and "He's a complete wreck but he knows that and is willing to take steps to fix it."

I wouldn't qualify him as a wreck, precisely. He is fair, honest, wise, and has tons of integrity. I know he loves and cares about me, but about once a month he goes into a total tailspin because things aren't going precisely by his internal rulebook, and it is exasperating. I haven't yet found a good way to talk to him about this.

Do you spend too much time together? Not enough? Too much stressful time together but not enough QT?

I would overall say "not enough." The past month has been particularly stressful because things are finaly calm enough for me to get a little reflective (depressed) about every single circumstance in my life changing at once. Because we're both massively busy with our lives and projects, we've only seen each other maybe once a week since the beginning of February.

It can't be about changing each other

While I am pretty kick-ass, I am, regrettably, still a human being. I've mentioned his idealism about seventeen times by now. He's not bitchy or condescending or aggressive or parental, but he doesn't comprehend when I operate differently than he, and I think that's how he ultimately measures compatibility.

Which, again, is a lesson I can't force him to learn.

What a combination. Hard-wired expectations and commitment anxiety. Surmountable? That's the burning question...

Two weeks ago he was professing absolute adoration (as he often has), but then we had an inconclusive, breaky-uppy-leaning conversation (which we sometimes do) last weekend. His communication since then has been a totally flaky mix of reconciliatory and surefooted. (Like I said, not sure what he wants.) ... I've mentioned his idealism about seventeen times by now. He's not bitchy or condescending or aggressive or parental, but he doesn't comprehend when I operate differently than he, and I think that's how he ultimately measures compatibility.

You mention that this guy is young, and by that I take it that he's significantly younger than you? Maybe in his early/mid twenties? Honestly, this is probably part of the "problem". You're in a place where, perhaps you're looking for stability? For something that's constant, that you can rely on. But it doesn't seem like he's really ready to be that for you. That doesn't mean everything is insurmountable, but it definitely sounds hard.

:(

I'm sorry, mykescipark. That sounds hard.

One thing that may be worth looking at, on your end, is whether you're more commitment-committed than usual because of the loss you experienced. (I know that after my mother died I was a bit desperate for stability.) Which isn't to say that the relationship is wrong, or that you're wrong; it just sounds like you're saying that you're looking for a stable relationship and he's not, and it may be worth looking at whether you're really at a point where that's what you need, or whether it may be that you're emotionally in need of that right now because you just lost a long-term stable relationship -- which may be making you more needy than you would otherwise be.

(I hope I don't sound blame-y -- I just find it's always most useful to address the advice to the half of the couple who's actually looking for help.)

If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like it may also be a difficult case of idealism before it's been weathered... which can be a useful form of idealism for exploring change or throwing oneself into a cause, but terribly harsh when applied to a relationship. I don't want to be unduly pessimistic, but if I were in your position I guess I would be somewhat wary of being a "learner model" for polishing the sharper edges.

Okay, so:

-just moved all the way across the country
-lost parent to cancer
-met and fell in love
-long-distance romance
-left my home city of 12 years
-along with my job
-and childhood home
-lived in four different cities
-we're both massively busy

I just want to put into a list because, while I was thinking about your situation I realized that any singleone of these experience would normally be considered a stressful life transition. Not a single thing you have experienced during these last months is small, or likely to leave you unaffected. You have had a hard, hard year.

What about just taking some time for yourself?

Be patient with yourself. The relationship may be causing you some angst, and it sounds like it's very hard for you to be calm and tend to yourself while your SO is flaking out back and forth. How frustrating and frightening after life itself has offered so little stability for you recently. It must have been a huge rush of positive feeling to have such an amazing romance right after such a sad time as losing your mom. But now that the days of drama have passed, and the dust is settling, and you're looking at your new situation, you have a chance to take a breather and ask yourself what you need.

And right now, you don't need to know that answer for next year, or a lifetime, or this relationship. You don't need to know the final outcome of anything that's going on right now. I suspect the kinds of things you need are more self-focused and simpler and more short-term. You need a few days to be quiet and sit with all this. You need a good conversation with a loving old friend. You need a walk outdoors on a beautiful afternoon. You need a good cry. You need a good book. You need enough sleep. You need to honor the desires for a more hopeful, joyful life that brought you to where you are in the first place. You need to allow yourself time to absorb the changes and choices you've just been through. You need to breathe.

Doing all of those things, placing the focus where it most surely belongs (on yourself, your needs, and your feelings) will certainly help you get clarity on what you need right now. If hope and frustration about this relationship are causing you anxiety, just let go of the outcome and focus on what you need. You will get what you need if you can know what that is, and how to say it, and love yourself enough to pursue it.

It's time once again for my favorite Rilke quote. It's my favorite because I tend to get all tied up in knots about the future and OMG WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN I MUST KNOW I CANNOT LIVE WITH THE UNCERTAINTY. When in fact, that's where most of life happens. So I give you:

...Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.