MetaChat - Anybody here hated Juno?

I sort of won't see it because I know I'll hate it.

posted by jessamyn 04 February | 12:13

yes, yes you will

posted by matteo 04 February | 12:19

Pink Bunny!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 12:24

In fact matteo I specifically thought about you and how you were talking about the OTHER "keep your baby, it will be great!" movies as propaganda for pro-life types and thought "more of the same...."

posted by jessamyn 04 February | 12:27

I was thinking of it the same way, and won't go see it as a result. I don't really think I could stand two hours of "the joy of teenage pregnancy" without totally going nuclear.

posted by kellydamnit 04 February | 12:37

97% of all Juno haters also laughed with Bambi's mother was shot, fyi. 100% of Juno hater will deny this fact but statistics.never.lie.

posted by stynxno 04 February | 12:37

also, saying Juno is about teen pregnancy is like saying Little Miss Sunshine is about beauty pagents.

posted by stynxno 04 February | 12:39

I didn't hate it, but I didn't like it, either.

posted by box 04 February | 12:44

But...it is about teen pregnancy.

You know, no teen pregnancy, no story.

posted by Miko 04 February | 12:44

I haven't seen it. I wanted to see it, but I've read so much that it is contrived and forcibly quirky that it sort of ruined it for me. My sister saw it. I asked her to retell the movie blow by blow. She did. I know what happens. She said it did have a few funny parts.

posted by LoriFLA 04 February | 12:46

You know, no teen pregnancy, no story

Little Miss Sunshine- no beauty pageant, no story. But is it ABOUT a beauty pageant? No.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 12:48

i kinda liked juno. part of me thought that it was trying too hard to be hip and edgy at times, but i still walked out of the theater feeling pretty good about spending $6.50 on a matinée.

whoever hired cut chemist to play the chemistry teacher deserves an award for inspired casting choices.

posted by syntax 04 February | 12:50

Going to see Juno has got to be money better spent than the £9 I spent to see cloverfield. JJ Abrahms is dead to me now.

posted by oh pollo! 04 February | 12:57

s it ABOUT a beauty pageant? No.

Yes!

I seriously am not getting you guys. Yes, it's about a beauty pageant; it's about the way beauty pageants reward a specific type of performance and appearance, and the way that becomes an ideal to girls of all kinds everywhere, and the way that individuals and families can fall short of that ideal and still find meaning in life.

Right? But it's about the ideals of the beauty pageant world in contrast with the realities of the rest of the world.

Unless I saw a different movie.

But that's another example of a movie that was much lamer than its hype. In fact, it was downright disturbing to me. I couldn't stop wondering WTF was going on with that grandfather and the 'rehearsing.' Nobody else found that creepy sick?

posted by Miko 04 February | 12:59

I seriously am not getting you guys. Yes, it's about a beauty pageant

It really isn't. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:02

It had its moments, but all that cutesy dialogue was pretty annoying.
Quirkier than thou.

posted by Hellbient 04 February | 13:03

Unless you can say what it IS about that's not a beauty pageant, we'll have to agree to disagree. But you haven't clued me in yet.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:06

And I'd love to hear what you thought Juno was about, too, if not teen pregnancy. Was it the romance? Was it a girl making a decision and living with it? Was it the lesson not to get married until you're ready, as depicted when the adoptive couple fell apart?

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:10

The story of Little Miss Sunshine is centered around a beauty pageant, but the "message" I took from the movie was more general then being about "the ideals of the beauty pageant world in contrast with the realities of the rest of the world". I thought it was more about life in general, and not just a beauty pageant- it was about a family handling challenges together. I'm not saying that all movies set at a certain place are about more than that, because I don't think they are, but I think this one was.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:14

In a very broad sense I see what you're saying. The problem is with the word "about" - you're asking "what was the message about," and I'm asking "what was the story about." I see the message as embedded within the particulars of the story.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:15

In a very broad sense I see what you're saying. The problem is with the word "about" - you're asking "what was the message about," and I'm asking "what was the story about."

I see the message as embedded within the particulars of the story, the story a carrier of the message. I would call "family meeting challenges" a theme.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:17

oops! darn interweb.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:17

I haven't seen Juno. It sounds like a movie I won't mind seeing on an airplane but that's about it. The trailers made it sound like 90 minutes of MTV's Daria.

I'm with Miko on the Little Miss Sunshine movie, but unlike Miko I liked it a lot. I hadn't heard the hype, though. I just rented it. That probably helped.

I loved the grandfather's final f*ck you! from beyond the grave (the girl's routine), which, incredibly, I didn't see coming, though everyone else in the room did.

Alan Arkin made that movie for me. When his character left the rest was pretty dull.

/derail

posted by small_ruminant 04 February | 13:19

TPS is right - Little Miss Sunshine is not about the beauty pagent - it's the story of a particular family bringing their girl to a beauty pagent. The grandfather, the colorblind kid, the suicidal gay professor, the 12-steps father and the mother holding it all together - that is what the story is about. And at the end, what the family does in support of their little girl has nothing to do with the beauty pagent - it has to do with them as a family.

Juno is like that. The teen pregnancy is the setting but it is not the reason for the movie.

posted by stynxno 04 February | 13:20

Story carries message, but that doesn't mean message can't transcend story. Is "Moby Dick" about whale hunting?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:20

In a very broad sense I see what you're saying. The problem is with the word "about" - you're asking "what was the message about," and I'm asking "what was the story about."

Those two things are not mutally exclusive.

posted by stynxno 04 February | 13:21

The beauty pageant was a plot device. It could have been a volleyball tournament, an art show, or even the family taking one of the kids to start college. With any of these situations, inappropriate stuff could happen, and the family galvanized to finally come together.

The portrayal of politics around beauty pageants was secondary, IMO. It was also pretty astute and funny.

But I liked Juno a lot (with the exception of the dad character, who was annoying), so what the hell do I know?

posted by danf 04 February | 13:21

Yes, Moby Dick is a book about whale hunting. Among its themes, or messages, are the limits of man's power of understanding, friendship, and the hazards of indulging in human will.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:23

saying Juno is about teen pregnancy is like saying Little Miss Sunshine is about beauty pagents

Little Miss Sunshine- no beauty pageant, no story. But is it ABOUT a beauty pageant? No.

saying Juno is about teen pregnancy is like saying The Passion Of The Christ is about Jesus

Silence Of The Lambs -- no serial killer, no story. But is it ABOUT a serial killer? No.

Sadly, Juno is indeed about teen pregnancy, no matter how hard its fans (or its writer and its producers) insist it isn't (the producers, obviously, to try not turn off the prochoice audience. The fans I really don't know why)

Juno is a sitcom for the antiabortion crowd. All the ingredients of the sitcom are there -- the grumpy/benign/no-nonsense dad, the dorky boyfriend, the witty/bitchy best friend, the snarky/loving mom (who, as a bonus,even verbally slaps around the clueless black ultrasound technician).

It's a -- clumsily written, cliché ridden (how many of you just knew the boyfriend would run over to the hospital, cleats and all?) -- antiabortion tract where the most horrible characters are the people in the hellish abortion clinic, and even the Krazy Korean Katholic picketer is nicer and more human than the babykillers in there. It'd also a movie about a 14 year old who thinks and talks like a 30 year old -- like its writer. At least that Alicia Silverstone movie, that had the same limitation, was funnier and much, much less preachy.

When the best thing about a movie is Jennifer Garner, beware.

posted by matteo 04 February | 13:23

No one I know who has seen Juno post-Christmas has liked it. These are truly different times. (I still haven't seen it.)

To kinda jump to Miko's defense... If I asked you what Little Miss Sunshine was about, and you told me "life in general"... Well, I'd flip out.

I thought Little Miss Sunshine was about a family on a road trip to a beauty pageant (hilarity ensues). Not so much the beauty pageant. Not so much its themes. All of this, of course, in the traditional understanding of "about" in this context.

(This conversation is too fast for me...)

posted by pokermonk 04 February | 13:25

The beauty pageant was a plot device. It could have been a volleyball tournament, an art show, or even the family taking one of the kids to start college.

Exactly, in which the theme would remain unchanged, but the story would be about something different.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:25

Hehehe, Jennifer Garner. I didn't think she was particularly good in Juno. I don't really get her appeal as a actress; I get her appeal as a beautiful person, though, so I suppose that's something.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:26

(the Silverstone movie I'm talking about is the Emma-in-Beverly-Hills thing, don't remember the title anymore)

posted by matteo 04 February | 13:26

Clueless?

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:27

Clueless was *so* the movie of my middle school years. My friend Bridget wore all the outfits and we all called her "Cher".

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:28

Yes, Moby Dick is a book about whale hunting.

spoiler alert nxt time plz

posted by Atom Eyes 04 February | 13:30

yeah, that's right. it was a teenager thinking like a 40 year old, scary. but better than Juno, as are point out here, Little Miss Sunshine's beauty pagenat is a plot device, without the pregnancy you have no Juno, period. There's no film without it. Because it's about it. It's really difficult to disprove this point, it's not really "agree to disagree". As I said, it's like The Silence of the Lambs without the serial killer -- is it a movie about career opportunities for women in a work environment run by men? Come on.

posted by matteo 04 February | 13:30

The teen pregnancy is the setting but it is not the reason for the movie.

Correct. The vicarious teen fucking is the reason for the movie.

posted by quonsar 04 February | 13:31

Little Miss Sunshine's beauty pagenat is a plot device, without the pregnancy you have no Juno, period. There's no film without it.

Yea, that makes sense to me.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 13:35

but better than Juno, as are point out here, Little Miss Sunshine's beauty pagenat is a plot device, without the pregnancy you have no Juno, period.

Wrong. The pregnancy was a plot device to get the main characters to interact and was not the 'point' of the film. Replace Juno's pregnancy with a stint at McDonald's and you'd get the same kind of film. If you actually watched the film, you'd notice that very little is actually said about Juno's pregnancy in the sense of what's happening to her - the focus of the movie is on how she interacts and grows with the characters around her. Her love, the married couple, her parents, her friends, herself - it's not about her being pregnant - it's about her being in her life.

posted by stynxno 04 February | 13:42

People still go to movies?

posted by jonmc 04 February | 13:43

I think the movie would have been better if Diablo Cody had even done one second worth of research on what women's health clinics, the adoption process, or what it's like being pregnant. I know, I know, oh, it's a movie, it doesn't have to reflect reality.

Sure it does. This isn't Narnia. She's writing about things that actually happen. No script is made worse by rooting it in reality. Instead, significant portions of the film seemed like they were there for the convenience of the writer, and that's just bad writing.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 13:43

I'm thinking of breaking my no-movie habits to see How She Move. I only go to the really weighty ones.

That is all.

posted by small_ruminant 04 February | 13:45

Clueless is the Fast Times for people born in the early 80s, our Heathers, our Little Darlings . Lovvvve it but I can understand why people who didn't see it at age 13 don't.

I saw Juno this weekend, and I thought it was just plain cute. It's sweet and fluffy like cotton candy. I find it best not to overthink movies like that. The abortion issue is something I care about greatly and yet I did not find Juno offensive or agenda-pushing, it was mostly wanting to have this thing happen while sort of ribbing both sides of the debate so it could get to teh cuteness. YMMV. I do find it a little disconcerting that it may glamorize a very un-glamorous condition, but much like I doubt that Fast Times at Ridgemont High or The Last American Virgin made having abortions en vogue, I doubt Juno will inspire a girl to get knocked up in high school.

Michael Cera and the girl who plays Juno are also the cutest people on earth. Together they join to make the most cutest film of all time.

posted by SassHat 04 February | 13:48

very little is actually said about Juno's pregnancy in the sense of what's happening to her

That's exactly what bothered me. Pregnancy is not just a device to make the people in your life interact, especially when you're a teenager. It's a real and very weighty decision point that has long-term impacts. It was an utterly unrealistic depiction of a teenage girl being in her life, and a flip and shallow depiction of a family, and a downright insulting and uninformed depiction of women's health resources, in my opinion.

posted by Miko 04 February | 13:51

I haven't seen it, because it looks wretched -- "a sitcom for the antiabortion crowd" is exactly the vibe it gives off. Ugh.

As for "Little Miss Sunshine": for god's sake, it's a road trip movie. The pageant was merely a device to get them all in the van together -- it may be the destination, but the story is (as all road trip stories are) actually about the journey. You could substitute any number of things for the beauty pageant -- e.g., American Idol auditions, the Little Miss Junior Pillsbury Bake-off, whatever -- and had a very similar movie.

posted by scody 04 February | 13:51

Clueless is the Fast Times for people born in the early 80s, our Heathers

*boggles*

Clueless was a harmless piece of entertainment, but I don't see how you can compare it to Fast Times or Heathers, both of which at least have some connection to adolescent reality.

posted by jonmc 04 February | 13:55

Heathers, like the Buffy tv show, rings the truest to the emotions of my teenage years. Love them.

Oh, Juno? I won't see it, but I will probably watch it on dvd. Just because people are so opinionated about it.

posted by gaspode 04 February | 13:58

Heathers, like the Buffy tv show, rings the truest to the emotions of my teenage years.

!!!! I'm scared of you now.

(kidding- 'pode and I watched Heathers together the first time I saw it).

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 14:03

Yeah, Cut Chemist was also my favorite part, syntax. And yeah, what Astro Zombie 4 said.

posted by box 04 February | 14:03

Replace Juno's pregnancy with a stint at McDonald's

and if you change the plot like that how exactly do you manage to have a couple of sterile yuppies try to buy her baby because they can't have one on their own and the husband wants to dump the wife anyway? I mean, seriously, if Juno is not pregnant and working at McDonald's, how do you do that? like, Jennifer Garner wants to buy a burger but the husband's vegetarian and then he dumps her?

how she interacts and grows with the characters around her

just like in sticoms, by the way; there's always a lesson to be leerned by the end of the 20 minute episode. And a big hug at the end!

very little is actually said about Juno's pregnancy in the sense of what's happening to her...

...- it's about her being in her life.

do you realize the contradiction here? "little is said about Juno's pregnancy" because the writing is weak, not because the film about something else. and my point stays, the abortion clinic people are ghouls, the picketer is very dorky but nice -- talk about making a point in visual terms.

one would assume that a country that's one SCOTUS vote away from Roe vs Wade's reversal -- ie, one vote away from going back to coat hanger good ole times -- would think twice before giving 100 million dollars to such a film. but then, Mel Gibson's antisemitical film essay made even more at the box office.

anyway this is all moot because the producres are laughing all the way to the bank. and the allegedly liberal Hollywood community showered the film with Oscar nominations, so it's all good.

posted by matteo 04 February | 14:05

Heh, TPS. Well everything was very dramatic-life-or-death over the top important to me then.

Lordy my teenaged self was insupportable.

posted by gaspode 04 February | 14:08

Comparing Clueless to Heathers? F--- me gently with a chainsaw! Did you have a brain tumor for breakfast?

Haven't seen Juno, but I agree that the pageant in LMS was a total Mcguffin. I don't think fetuses make good Mcguffins.

posted by jrossi4r 04 February | 14:09

They do, however, when accompanied by cheese and bacon make good McMuffins. It's a fact.

posted by jrossi4r 04 February | 14:11

The mother of the Grandbun loved the movie. I haven't seen it.

Why isn't it okay for the movie not to be proabortion? All movies have points of view. I mean, I enjoyed watching Kill Bill but I don't agree with any of the VALUES in it.

posted by bunnyfire 04 February | 14:14

allegedly liberal Hollywood community

minor tangent: the abortion debate isn't as defined by left wing/right wing as many would have you believe. I remember a girl I knew in college (who later was a contestant on a reality show) who was stridently leftist (so much so that she makes matteo look like an Eisenhower Republican) on every issue except abortion. She even had a graphic and rather nauseating anti-abortion poster on her wall.

I've likewise know fairly conservative people who are pro-choice, out of well, practical reasons, I guess. And don't forget that there's a pretty large percentage of the electorate who can't remember a time when abortion wasn't legal, and out of sheer inertia, politics generally favors no change over change.

posted by jonmc 04 February | 14:31

I saw Juno post-Christmas and I liked it. I'm with Sasshat and danf on this. It was a cute film that made me laugh and didn't make me regret spending my money on it.

posted by LunaticFringe 04 February | 14:32

I don't see problems with the movie not being outright pro-abortion, because that's not the point of the story. However, they brought out the abortion issue anyway with a definite anti-abortion slant, and that's the part I found distasteful. Antiabortionists don't need any more media reinforcement that says go on, get knocked up and keep the baby, you'll have a quirky supporting cast to help you through all your problems.

The Bride in Kill Bill decided to keep her baby too, and I was fine with that.

posted by casarkos 04 February | 14:59

As pointed out upthread, I hated it. I didn't even bother getting into my feelings on the film's antiabortion stance in my post, as I felt that there were enough other reasons to think the thing was a overcontrived piece of shit.

posted by item 04 February | 15:23

I'd like to add that having a baby doesn't immediately end in an anti-choice message. The whole point of being pro-CHOICE is that it's just that - a choice. The girl in the movie has her own ideas about her life and enacts them as she sees fit - NOT because her parents, her boyfriend, her friend or her teachers want her to do it. If that isn't having a sense of personal agency in her reproductive choices, I don't know what is.

If you want to talk about anti-choice movies, let's talk about Knocked Up, where they tremble at even using the *word* and never present it as an option.

As for the Clueless haters, I can only say that you totally don't get it, grownups will never understand, don't trust anyone over thirty, etc etc. You probably hated Thundercats, too. Philistines.

posted by SassHat 04 February | 17:17

Thanks, sasshat. I haven't seen the movie, so I felt unequipped to comment.

posted by muddgirl 04 February | 17:26

I'd like to add that having a baby doesn't immediately end in an anti-choice message. The whole point of being pro-CHOICE is that it's just that - a choice. The girl in the movie has her own ideas about her life and enacts them as she sees fit - NOT because her parents, her boyfriend, her friend or her teachers want her to do it. If that isn't having a sense of personal agency in her reproductive choices, I don't know what is.

Hear hear. I'm getting tired of the "pro-choice = abortion / keeping the baby = pro-life" false dichotomy. This is issue is so many shades of grey it's a gradient.

posted by me3dia 04 February | 17:49

Actually, even though Diablo Cody states that she is pro-choice, the film does accidentally have an anti-choice subtext, which I think demonstrates her immaturity as a writer, and her inability to understand subtext. Juno doesn't come to some sort of complex decision about having the child. She goes to the clinic, is greeted at the door by a protester who informs her that her fetus already has fingernails. They Juno goes into the clinic, is greeted by a grotesque character whose discussion of sexuality freaks her out, sits down, and sees a series of images of fingernails. Everybody is scratching themselves, or moving their hands, with a series of extreme close-ups of fingernails. She flees the clinic, and confesses to her best friend that it was the fingernails that got to her. And then she launches into a mini-monologue about how much nobler it is that she is having the fetus and giving it up for adoption.

But it is not nobler. It is just another option. And the message of the fingernail scene is that anti-choice tactics work, that you can stand in front of a clinic and humanize a fetus to the point that a woman will reverse her decision to terminate the pregnancy. For someone who isn't from the pro-life crowd to write that scene shows a stupifying lack of tact, and Cody has admitted that the only reason she wrote the scene is because she wanted the movie to end with Juno and her family surrounding her lovingly in a hospital room. So she created an entirely fantastical scene because she's not a sophisticated enough writer to instead have her character come to some sort of reasoned conclusion, but instead be forced by circumstances into making a different decision. That's not pro-choice. That is narratively anti-choice, and it's just bad writing.

And we're led to believe that Juno had been planning to sleep with her best friend Bleeker for a while. Yes she doesn't use birth control, and the fact is never addressed. She's got enough money to buy dozens of birth control tests and, at one point, about a hundred dollars worth of tic tacs, but she can't buy a condom?

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 17:53

Pregnancy tests, rather.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 18:21

stem cells have tiny little fingernails, too.

posted by matteo 04 February | 18:30

(and jon, I am indeed an Eisenhower Republican)

posted by matteo 04 February | 18:31

Juno doesn't come to some sort of complex decision about having the child

Well, wasn't that her choice? Doesn't being pro "choice" mean supporting all choices, not just the ones arrived at via your personally approved methods of thought?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 18:34

(and jon, I am indeed an Eisenhower Republican)

as am I, more or less, but you probably could wear the jacket with more panache. (I'm quite frankly surprised you haven't tried to research who the reality-show contestant/abortion opponent chick was. Hint: she's a vegan. She also had a flirtation thing happening with me for some reason.)

posted by jonmc 04 February | 18:37

If this were the real world, yes. It is a movie, and so lazy characterizations made for the convenience of a plot don't qualify as decisions. They qualify as bad writing.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 18:38

I suppose, but what else could have gone on there?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 04 February | 18:40

The problem is that if you want a "pro-abortion" film that is actually about a pregnant character having an abortion, it is an incredibly short film. There can be very little agonizing over the decision, because it's merely another option when you're pregnant. There can be no devastating after-affects either, because that would make it an anti-abortion movie.

Without anything to cause dramatic conflict, you have no movie. A portrayal of a woman who chooses to have her unplanned pregnancy aborted and feels fine and dandy about it afterward can only be incidental to the main story; you can't build a feature-length film around that.

With that out of the way: yes, Juno was mannered and twee, but dammit, I like mannered and twee, and it was done to near perfection.

posted by kyleg 04 February | 18:41

I totally get what you're saying, AZ, but I think I'm reflecting on the fact that a lot of criticism of the film (not here on Metachat! But elsewhere!) seems to stem from this idea that a Good Pro-Choicer would have written Juno to give up the baby.

posted by muddgirl 04 February | 18:42

That last sentence came out a bit wrong. It should have been "...written Juno to abort the embryo"

posted by muddgirl 04 February | 18:43

Well, she could have gone into the clinic and experienced what people actually experience at a clinic, which is counseling about their options. The people at the clinics might not have been presented as monstrous. Or, you know, we could have skipped the clinic altogether, and had Juno tell her friend that she has decided to keep the child and give it up for adoption, and Cody could have come up with real reasons for that decision.

Instead, we are treated to a scene where a women's health clinic is treated as someplace cold, uncaring, and out of touch. And this isn't based on a real experience, but instead on the fact that Cody couldn't conceive of any other way to force her character to make a decision that would lead to the culminating scene.

You know, I just saw Alfie, and there is a scene where a woman decides to have a baby, and later reverses her decision to give it up for adoption, and there is another scene in which another woman decides to have an abortion, and both scenes are handles with much greater realism than anything in Juno. In 1966.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 18:44

And I'm not saying Juno should have had the abortion. I'm saying that the clinic scene is appalling, and that Cody did absolutely zero research on what an incredible nightmare the adoption process is. t might have been a better option for Juno, had the film been adequately written, but it wouldn't have been as easy as advertising in the Penny Saver. It would have been quite a trek. And I think that might have made for a very touching and funny movie. But I give life a lot more credit for being a good inspiration for art than Cody does.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 04 February | 18:48

The band? The movie? Or the Canadian music awards ceremony?

posted by Eideteker 04 February | 18:53

Thanks AZ4, that was the point I was trying to make. I have no problems with pro-choice including the choice to keep a baby, I just didn't like the way they presented the other option in such a bad light as to be easy anti-abortion material.

posted by casarkos 04 February | 18:56

Doesn't being pro "choice" mean supporting all choices,

I know this doesn't gel with what one might have heard in Church, but it's not the pro-choice people who are trying to take options away from women -- it's the anti-abortion people. if Roe stays, there is choice (I don't remember NOW kidnapping women who want to keep their babies, drugging them, and perform abortions on them -- please link to any such case, because I'm not sure it ever happened). but when Roe is overturned -- ie, very soon if McCain wins, probably a bit later if he doesn't -- an option (terminating a pregnancy in a safe manner) will have been effectively taken away. leaving only the choice of a very dangerous homemade procedure.

not to mention, most opponents of abortion on religious grounds are also against contraception -- condoms make the Baby Jesus cry, he must be allergic to latex. which leaves only abstinence as the solution, and having been teenagers, all of us, we all know how well _that_ works .

A portrayal of a woman who chooses to have her unplanned pregnancy aborted and feels fine and dandy about it afterward can only be incidental to the main story;

you might be surprised to hear that very few women -- if at all -- throw aborted-fetus parties after choosing that very painful option. so fine and dandy doesn't really begin to describe it. but then such a complex film is clearly beyond the means of the writer of Juno, who, as I said, is very proficient in, at the most, sitcom writing.

more complex writing and more grownup film making takes a better writer, obviously. but Hartley, for all his flaws, would suck at sitcoms.

I'm quite frankly surprised you haven't tried to research who the reality-show contestant/abortion opponent chick was

I'm a gentiluomo, giovanni.

posted by matteo 04 February | 19:42

The goddess, Eide.

As someone whose age is between jrossi and jonmc on the one end and TPS and SassHat on the other, I must say that I find the debate about whether Clueless belongs in the same class as Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Heathers to be very funny.

posted by box 04 February | 19:58

very soon if McCain wins, probably a bit later if he doesn't

I was going to be very confused about this, until I looked up Sen. McCain's record. Woah, my primary strategy just changed...

An interesting question: as a feminist and an avid Reproductive Rights advocate, who would I rather win the Republican nomination: a proven anti-abortion candidate, or a candidate that changes his opinion when it suits him best?

Another interesting note: Rep. Ron Paul, despite his stance against a strong federal gov't, has voted to increase federal regulations on what types of abortions can be performed. Rep. Paul has previously stated that he is personally anti-choice (see what I did there?) but that he thinks it should be up to the state legislatures...

posted by muddgirl 04 February | 20:24

Yeah, Paul's one of those anti-choice libertarians. He doesn't talk much about ending the drug war either.

posted by box 04 February | 20:27

The phrase "anti-choice libertarian" makes me want to bang my head into a desk. I mean, it obviously fits Paul, it's just such a completely illogical stance for someone representing a party that claims to be based in logic rather than ideology.

posted by occhiblu 04 February | 20:34

I thought he represented the Republican Party.

posted by box 04 February | 20:59

box - Rep. Paul is supposedly a "lower-case l" libertarian, i.e. a "true economic conservative". Not an "Upper-Case L" Libertarian, who support such social evils and freedom and democracy :)

posted by muddgirl 04 February | 21:13

I don't have a ton to add to the philosophical debate, but I didn't much like the flick and thought it was terribly written.

posted by sweetkid 04 February | 21:14

The problem is that if you want a "pro-abortion" film that is actually about a pregnant character having an abortion, it is an incredibly short film.

I have to disagree with you there ...

posted by kellydamnit 05 February | 00:39

I have to disagree with you there...

Oh, I had somehow forgotten what a god-awful movie cider house rules was. I couldn't believe ebert gave it even 2 stars.

If only it had been short.

posted by justgary 05 February | 01:58

And there is also Citizen Ruth.

posted by Astro Zombie 4 05 February | 03:06

Isn't it more likely that a 16-year-old would be swayed by something like finding out the fetus had fingernails than because they did intense soul searching?

I also can't hold not explaining why Juno chose not to make Paulie wear a condom, because many older adults in a similar situation make the same decision. If anything, any explanation she gave other than "I forgot" could have pissed people as much (if not far more) than explaining her thinking.

posted by drezdn 05 February | 09:45

Isn't it more likely that a 16-year-old would be swayed by something like finding out the fetus had fingernails than because they did intense soul searching?

This is going to sound more combative than I mean it to, but are you serious?

Have you ever talked to someone who was pregnant as a teen, or were you ever pregnant?

One thing that bothers me is this minimization of the decision to carry a pregnancy to term. It's not about fingernails, inconvenience, the trials of swelling boobs, and ill-fitting clothes.

Anyone who knows anyone who has gone through this, or has gone through it themselves, would know that making a pregnancy decision is an absolutely wrenching process that takes in a girl's sense of herself and her future, her standing in her family, school, and among friends, risk to her own life and health, abject terror, personal and sometimes religious guilt and pressure, personal risk sometimes (depending on the kind of family/boyfriend situation she's in), large unpredicted expenses, love and sadness, frustration and desperation, responsibility, freedom, shame, anger, disgust, fear, regret, longing, hope, confusion. Really.

Even in the best-case scenarios, girls who get pregnant think about this stuff every waking moment throughout the experience.

Fingernails?

I mean, come on.

posted by Miko 05 February | 10:28

/bold. Sorry bout that.

posted by Miko 05 February | 10:29

I'm not pregnant, and while I'll never understand what being pregnant is actually like, I do have a pregnant wife and I know how much of her life it currently consumes.
One thing that bothers me is this minimization of the decision to carry a pregnancy to term. It's not about fingernails, inconvenience, the trials of swelling boobs, and ill-fitting clothes.

While I think someone could write a much better movie about teen pregnancy, I don't think Juno didn't show some effects of teen pregnancy. By the late term, she was obviously ostracized at the school, and was turning to adults for human contact.

There are plenty of teens that carry babies to term for reasons that seem incredibly irrational. My wife's school is filled with pregnant teens who live in families far below poverty level who take their babies to term and then take care of the baby.

I agree that deciding even to just carry a baby to term is a gigantic decision, but I think everyone (and especially teenagers) will make important decisions with irrational reasoning.

What important aspects of carrying a baby to term would you want a movie to cover?

While I'm not big on defending Juno as anything all that amazing, I do think much of the criticism comes from people expecting too much from a comedy.

posted by drezdn 05 February | 11:01

Also, do you know what's it's like to be adopted? Sure, I don't know what it was like for my birth mother to carry me to term (or afterwards), but I know that I've managed to have a decent enough life afterwards because of her decision.

And I'm pro-choice! What a strange world this is that we live in.

posted by drezdn 05 February | 11:15

I'm totally not anti-adoption. I have some insight from friends who both gave babies up and who were themselves adopted, but that's all I can claim. Adoption has a lot to be said for it as a social system for handling cases in which a mother is unable to raise her child. Obviously it works out well for many people. From the position of a mother giving up the child, I've heard people say that the decision is one they revisit every day. It's not uncomplicated, of course.

I want to be clear that I think all those difficulties attend almost all pregnancy decisions when they are unplanned pregnancies - not only the abortion-or-not decision. I just really disliked seeing one such decision painted very, very shallowly. Sixteen-year-olds do struggle very deeply with decisions like this on both sides, no matter how hip'n'flip their senses of humor.

people expecting too much from a comedy

That's a big part of it, but it's largely because it was so hyped as so original, true-to-life, and funny. It just wasn't that well handled.

posted by Miko 05 February | 12:02

Why should our expectation for good writing be any lower for a comedy?

posted by Astro Zombie 4 05 February | 12:38

Well, I just heard the writer interviewed on Talk of the Nation and that pretty much gave me everything I needed to know. She doesn't have an agenda - she's just not all that nuanced or bright, a blogger who got lucky with her writing. In her mind, the "most interesting" part of the story was the plotline of the couple who split up over parenting. She saw that as the center of the tale.

Oy.

posted by Miko 05 February | 15:02

I also heard [a good portion of] that interview.

The best piece of advice she could offer to an aspiring screenwriter was to start self-publishing.

posted by box 05 February | 16:47

04 February 2008