If it's a gay relationship, your local GLBT centre might have advice.

SF is actually starting to get pretty good about helping with (or at least recognizing) male-on-male violence.

Community United Against Violence is the organization that's running those ads on public transportation about male rape. Their crisis line would probably be a good resource. (Because you're right -- though I think women's shelters are getting a little better about helping battered men, they're still a little understandably focused on keeping it a safe space for women, which creates some conflict with that.)

I'm so sorry you and your friend are having to deal with this.

Unsolicited advice is almost never welcome. It almost always blows back on you (which you seem to indicate has been the result in the past). You probably don't want to hear this, but I'd stay out of it, if I were you. Let them work it out on their own, especially since it's not physical. Seems like your friend already knows your point-of-view. Maybe just let him know you're there for him if he needs you.

I both agree and disagree with Pips. Probably it will not go terribly well, but I wouldn't recommend you stay out of it. Quite the contrary in fact -- someone needs to tell him that what he's enduring is not and should not be acceptable for relationships. If for no other reason than that you don't ever want to have to answer the question "Why didn't you say something?" Also, these conversations tend to plant seeds, even if they don't end well or result in him leaving his partner immediately.

I'd frame the conversation in as positive and supportive a way as possible, of course. I think what you've outlined sounds good.

Could you call the battered woman's hotline and ask for advice?

middleclasstool- that's what I'm going to try to go for. Just the "I'm worried and here's why- this is what I'm seeing."

I don't want to do the "why are you staying with this a**hole!" approach. It IS hard for me not to leap in and try to micromanage how he should be doing things, but then I wouldn't be any better than his partner. I'm going to try very very hard not to give any advice at all- just that I love him and he's a good man who deserves someone who treats him respectfully.

The thing is, the song's not even new. There is nothing unique about his situation that should obscure the true nature of it. Somehow he interprets control freakiness, explosive temper tantrums as flattering. Hey baby, you so fine you just make me crazy- you know I love you. If I didn't love you so much, you wouldn't make me so crazy!

He's het, not gay. There's not much out there for that.

I figure I have one shot at it and then I'll have to let it go, so I want to do it right.

I reserve the right to make very occasional, situation-specific, sarcastic comments, though.

Thanks, occhiblu and rhapsodie. They probably have some good advice I can use, even if I'm not their target demographic.

I know it sounds all drama-queen-y, but I'd like to find a therapist or counselor for myself, too, because it's depressing the hell out of me, even though it isn't my problem. I think I need some perspective or distance or something. If anyone has any recommendations I'd be happy to have them, just for a couple sessions.

That doesn't sound drama queen-y at all. I've been on the verge of a breakdown trying to deal with my clients who are in abusive situations -- it's frighteningly difficult to help other people through some of that.

Unfortunately, my wonderful therapist seems to have left San Francisco, or I'd send you her name.

Maybe even one of the drop-in clinics, if you're just looking for a couple sessions? In SF there's the Haight Ashbury Psychological Services; I would assume there must be something similar in the East Bay. Or the clinic at Berkeley?

Thanks, occhiblu. I'll call up the Berkeley clinic.

small_ruminant, good for you. It is incredibly hard, and it may not go well, but middleclasstool is right--it will at least plant seeds. Having been in a similar situation to the one you describe, the thing that did get me out of it (along with getting tired of being embarrassed to even see my friends, let alone talk to them any more about what was going on) was one friend who told me that *when* I decided to leave, I had a place to stay with her until I found somewhere, any time, day or night--the thought of leaving with nowhere to go is scary, and a relationship like that can go through so many ups and downs that it's hard when you're in it to stick with a decision to move through the process of finding a new apartment and all that entails. People like that erode your self-confidence alarmingly, as well as isolating you from your friends. Having an option you can take at the one moment when you've had enough and have grabbed some courage makes a huge difference. I don't know if that's an option for you, or even if that will help him, but it might; alternately, if you know of somewhere he could go to, you could leave the phone number with him.

I think it must be much harder for men in this situation (not that it's a picnic for women)--our culture makes it incredibly difficult for them to admit abuse at the hands of women, and doesn't give them many options when they do. I wish you the best of luck in helping your friend, s_r.

Thanks, elizard- I'm glad to hear it.

One thing that is very important and very very difficult is to try not to paint the partner as a demon. These things are complicated. Also, try to be as nice and polite to the partner as you can be-if she sees you as a threat to her power, you are history and your friend is without help.


Go ahead and tell your friend what you see, and simply tell him you are there for him no matter what. Be specific about the ways you can be helpful if he needs it.

you're right, bunnyfire. And she isn't a demon- if she were he'd have bailed at week 1. She does see me as a threat and has since week 1.

Today she's emailing me to tell me what behavior of mine she approves of and what she doesn't. Lord, grant me the ability to bite my tongue.

You might want to let some the materials out there on the cycle of abuse do the speaking for you. Use images and pamphlets, it keeps you out of it. It's really easy to get hung up on the message, which can make it complicated. Keep it simple, let your concern be known, but see what materials you can find that simply and clearly spell out the issue without injecting personalities into it. Oftentimes, reading something from outside the abusive relationship can trigger self examination, because the information is objective, neutral, and will likely "fit in" to the situation easily.

Good Luck; your friend is lucky to have you.

Ignore her personal emails. She's not your friend.

Despite the emotional commitment you and your friend have, be there for him, but, imo, politely back off. People have fucked-up relationships all the time despite what friends think. Be his friend; express that, but then back off. If he's as smart as you make out, he'll do fine, and he'll have a friend at the end of it if it all goes pear-shaped.

If you have to meet them as a couple, be yourself around him, treat her cordially but ignore her immaturity and insecurity.

Don't let her shake you. You're by far the better collected woman. I know this because I met you.

Unless you have a friendship/relationship with her also, how inappropriate of her to email you about ground rules!

How he behaves with you is up to HIM, and any preferences she might have are up to HER to tell HIM about.

I mean, I am assuming that your friendship with him is platonic and all, but even if it wasn't, it's none of her business to tell you what she likes and doesn't like about how you relate to him!

If this email of hers is OK with him, if he gives up his autonomy that easily, then there is stuff going on over and above having this gf.

uws, thanks for the nice words. I'm trying really hard to back off. I think he'll figure it out, but in the long, long run.

danf, there is definitely stuff over and above this gf. And imo she's beyond inappropriate.

(And thanks for the graphic, moonbird.)

It's very difficult, in my experience, to maintain a friendship with one member of a couple and not at least be cordial to the other. And forgive me for saying -- I don't really know that much about the situation, of course -- but I can kind of understand why the girlfriend might be a little nervous. Perhaps if you spent time with the two of them instead of with him alone it would assuage her fears.

Heh- I might be off the hook. Friend's sister is in town and gf is being completely nutty to her, too.

Pips, I thought it was just me at first, too, but it's every female- coworkers, customers, whatever. Even if I distrusted my guy that much, I'd never sink so low as to admit it.

Even if I distrusted my guy that much

heh. Pips 'gets her bat out' whenever a woman pays me a compliment.

*ducks*

yeah, but it's a wiffle bat : )

(ducks, looks around for Pips.)

I'll keep that in mind if I ever meet you.

for you, s_r, it's a whuffle bat :)

Planting seeds, as it's been phrased, is an excellent and vital thing to do. Of course you won't deliver this with heavy judgement or lecture; you're too smart and understanding for that. But in situations like this, abused people are weighing evidence all the time, trying to rationalize the situation. At the point at which the evidence becomes heavy enough to outweigh the rationalization, they will start seeking a way out. At that point, whenever it comes, your friend will know he has at least one lifeline, one person who cared enough to mention something. He may or may not use it, but from the day you talk to him onward, he will know that it is there. MYOB is a fine general policy, but I have seen a light touch work wonders in this life - with abusers, with alcoholics, with all manner of personality issues. "Just letting you know that I see you're struggling/unhappy/exhausted, and I'll be happy to talk more to you about it, if you decide you want to." That kind of thing.

It can be an honest-to-God lifeline.

thought it was just me at first, too, but it's every female- coworkers, customers, whatever

That adds up with an abusive situation. That behavior (in men or women) can arise from insecurity, which is an underlying factor is a lot of verbal and physical abuse.

Miko, that's my hope- if it were a physical abuse problem it would probably be harder to keep the light touch. And now that I might be off the hook altogether I'm happy MYOB completely.

Generally speaking I'm the queen of denial and rationalization and minimization of the problem and all that. Until a week or so after sis leaves I'm going to go with that.

Also, I'm thinking of complimenting jonmc just to try out Pips's whuffle bat action.

I notice that you're talking a lot about what you plan to say, which is a good idea to figure it out in advance; but the more important part of this process I think may be to make good on your promise to listen, and then really listen to what your friend has to say in response.

Sometimes what people in these situations really need is to bounce their ball off a surface that isn't totally distorted and see what it looks like when it bounces back. Then they can figure out for themselves where they are and whether they like it.

What you can do is offer yourself as their personal squash court. They may not choose to serve the ball today. But if they do, you can then throw it back clear and true, not worrying about sparing anyone's feelings or being polite. That can be quite helpful to people.

You're right, ikkyu2.