MetaChat - Ask Mecha: Girlzone?

Hrm. Girlzone. I don't know if that's the right term. To me that means it's inundated with women and is an unwelcoming atmosphere for guys. I definitely notice a very strong female presence here. I don't know if they outnumber the gents in terms of activity for sure, but I can see that, yeah.

posted by CitrusFreak12 17 November | 13:17

Ehhhh . . . sort of.

There's definitely a mellower, less confrontational atmosphere here.

Most of the time, at least.

But I hadn't attributed a particular gendered flavor to MetaChat or MetaFilter. So I might not be the best judge of this.

I do find the "BOYZONE!" comments over there extremely puzzling, because my idea of BoyZone looks like the Power And Bulk discussion board (NSFW).

And MetaFilter ain't like that.

posted by jason's_planet 17 November | 13:36

"... So, is Metachat a girlzone? ..."
No wai!

posted by paulsc 17 November | 13:39

I see it as having a more reasonable balance between male and female and I don't know if that makes it a girlzone or not. When I hear women here talking about various issues -- "girly" or non -- I don't wince thinking some foul-mouthed jackass is going to follow-up with "I'd hit it" And, even if someone did, they're going to be the exception not the rule.

To be fair, I think most of MeFi is okay most of the time (and that may just be my bias, o' course) but there have been some ugly things cropping up which to me feel like a few ornery users BUT the general response to bad behavior there is often silence or tittering, whereas here I feel people are more likely to be like "gee what a weirdly lame thing to say" The general atmopsphere here strikes me as somewhat enforced decency which I mostly enjoy. The expectation seems to be one of civility and tolerance and lack of a "let it all hang out" gloves-off location makes that even moreso. It doesn't seem girly to me, it just doesn't seem like a boyzone the way MeFi -- and a lot of the rest of the internet -- does.

posted by jessamyn 17 November | 13:40

It seems pretty egalitarian here. One of the reasons I maintain my bit part. I would like to think that both the boys and girls here benefit from some unfettered "this is what is like for me" talk, from the perspective of one's gender, among other things. Does that make sense?

Also, although I know the gender identity of most here, I am still surprised, once in awhile. That's fun.

posted by danf 17 November | 13:46

paulsc, did you really just post a link to a Youtube video of a fan-made GTAIV trailer?

You're full of surprises, my friend.

posted by box 17 November | 13:49

I think overall that people are just more pleasant and less defensive here. Maybe not many of the confrontational types have gravitated here from MF because they find it all sweetness and light. The vibe here (as I see it) is generally light-hearted, supportive, even a bit touchy-feely at times.

And there's a hell of a lot of flirting going on here, which is always fun.

Is that the definition of a girlzone? I have no idea.

posted by iconomy 17 November | 13:49

"... You're full of surprises, my friend. ..."
posted by box 17 November

"... Perhaps, here t'ings will be different..."

posted by paulsc 17 November | 13:52

It seems the definition of boyzone and girlzone have been stretched beyond what I think they actually mean. Some use the "boyzone" term to mean confrontational, argumentative, cranky, etc- everything they consider negative. Which puts "girlzone" in the opposite corner- all love and flowers and what not. I personally enjoy both Metafilter and Metachat for what they are- they are simply different. I don't care to describe one as more "male" and one as more "female", because I think that denies the fact that members of either sex can enjoy either experience.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 17 November | 13:57

Nicely said, TPS.

posted by tangerine 17 November | 14:04

But I hadn't attributed a particular gendered flavor to MetaChat or MetaFilter. So I might not be the best judge of this.

Ditto.

posted by ericb 17 November | 14:08

I find MeCha to be gender-neutral. Except for daily updates on lipstick color of the day, and the leg-shaving tips.

MeFi is sometimes hostile to women, sometimes adolescent-boyish, sometimes very blandly sexist. Just like a lot of real life.

posted by theora55 17 November | 14:25

Never occurred to me to think it in terms of gender. Mecha's just a nice place to visit, is all. Is gender a factor in that? Probably not. Gals and guys can be jerks all the same. And Mecha just isn't a jerk-zone. Well, Mecha is where the intent is to not be a jerk. And that intention has made all the difference.

posted by MonkeyButter 17 November | 14:40

Wait...there are boys here? *Puts away tub of ice cream, pulls out curlers*

posted by elizard 17 November | 14:49

I actually agree with ThePinkSuperhero that neither place evokes a particularly gendered image in my mind. However, there are some significant differences between the two places which could be neatly fitted into gendered slots. Metafilter is much, much bigger than Metachat. As a partial result of that size disparity and the resulting anonymity it engenders, the tone at Metafilter is often more rough and tumble, and survival of the fittest (or most vocal) seems to be the norm over there. Metachat is much more intimate and, for lack of a less gendered word, nurturing. For me personally, none of these characteristics are coded as specifically male or female, but I can see how they are in a lot of peoples' minds.

posted by Lassie 17 November | 14:57

To me, MeChat is like the perfect happy hour.

posted by mischief 17 November | 15:24

Metafilter is much, much bigger than Metachat. As a partial result of that size disparity and the resulting anonymity it engenders, the tone at Metafilter is often more rough and tumble, and survival of the fittest (or most vocal) seems to be the norm over there.

definitely agreed, and I don't think that indicates 'boy' or 'girl' zone at all... but then I'm a rough-and-tumble kind of gal who thinks the whole gender-role pigeonholing manifesto is kind of limiting. I get dirty, rip hide off and break bones racing my bikes, shoot pool, fix cars, solve minor plumbing crises, shit talk about (American) football rivalries, and was Designated Small Rodent and Arachnid Exterminatrix^TM for my ex. My background (farm girl with a side of horse doctoring) means that I can operate heavy machinery and drive enormous trucks, splint fractures and suture wounds, clean fish, grow crops, and when necessary shoot my own dinner. Hell I used to dig watching "The Man Show", thought it was a riot. One of my bigger disappointment in life is that I don't have the required, um, "assets" to be a Trampoline Girl. So perhaps I'm not the right girl to provide any perspective on this thread, despite that I own lots of pretty shoes and makeup, and enjoy wearing dresses and fixing my hair and smelling nice.

For better or for worse, snark and irony is the currency of trade in MeFi, and that kind of sets the mood. I think it's been pretty well proven that snark is egalitarian. Now, I loves me some snark, with a double shot of irony, straight up, with a twist of schadenfreude. Does this make me a bad person? Enh, probably to some. I also think it's eminently clear from some of the witty ripostes I've seen over there that you don't have to be a Licenced Penis Operator to hold an advanced degree in snark.

but that's just me.

posted by lonefrontranger 17 November | 16:03

Phew, I just read the entire linked thread.

I don't think of Metachat as a girlzone. Metachat is just civil. Equal parts men and women who are civil. I do admit to thinking of Metafilter as rude at times. I enjoy reading some Metafilter threads and I find many of the contributors interesting, but it seems like I can't get through one thread without encountering a stupidly rude and offensive comment. Like others have said: it's tiresome and boring.

And who in the hell invented the phrase: I'd hit it? Ugh, it's the worst.

posted by LoriFLA 17 November | 16:09

I've made the charge before. There are certain threads where women seem to just wanna commiserate with each other. If a man shares his opinion on the topic it had better be in lockstep with the prevailing female opinion or he will have his character impugned. Conversely if some guys wanna get together for guy talk...well those threads turn nasty pretty fast. Certain female posters will loudly proclaim that such conversation is not welcome here.

Now, I don't really have a problem with this set up. Like I said about MetaFilter in the grey (as "Uranus"), MetaChat is what it is and I still find gobs of wonderful stuff that keeps me coming back. And it really is great to have a meta* place where women feel comfortable.

I was surprised to see wolfdog make that comment. I don't remember him being active in some of the gender blowups we've had around here. But I had noticed he's missing for awhile. Too bad.

posted by danostuporstar 17 November | 16:15

Also (sorry for the length) this is something I was thinking the other day. People who get all dismissive about MeFi being a 'boyzone' are, I'm afraid, dooming themselves to eternal dissatisfaction. Short of, I dunno, joining a knitting blog, you're just not going to find a better place on the web for open, sensitive, caring and understanding gender topic discussions. I know this because I've been on the internet a long time, and been a lot of places in it (heh heh) but for all its faults, I think MeFi genuinely tries to do the right thing, and does get it right most of the time, if for no other reason than that assholes (of any gender/persuasion) will be called out for being assholes.

Besides (and i swear to god I am not trolling, this is just how I feel) at the most simplistic root of it all, I think dissing on guys for doing the "omg BOOBIES!!" thing shows the same lack of empathy as dissing on girls for going "omg KITTENS!!". Why must one be so much more positively or negatively culturally freighted than the other?

posted by lonefrontranger 17 November | 16:23

I think dissing on guys for doing the "omg BOOBIES!!" thing shows the same lack of empathy as dissing on girls for going "omg KITTENS!!". Why must one be so much more positively or negatively culturally freighted than the other?

Because cats don't read the internet.

posted by occhiblu 17 November | 16:27

I have a hard-drive's worth of lolcat images that say otherwise.

posted by matthewr 17 November | 16:32

I think Mecha is a girlzone in the sense that there are more women that post here than men.
I have no idea about Mefi and I don't care.

I do find Mecha to be clique-ish. As is Mefi. As is every other forum on the planet, even those in meatspace.

posted by disclaimer 17 November | 16:38

There are certain threads where women seem to just wanna commiserate with each other.

This reminded me that part of what I find so interesting about Metachat is that there's plenty of space here for anybody to start a thread for the purpose of being commiserated with, regardless of whether the poster is male or female. I guess I don't see the need to get virtual hugs as being particularly gendered by definition, and it certainly doesn't play out that way here.

Also, you may be right, danostuporstar, that "guy talk" threads get nasty pretty quickly, but I don't see commiseration and guy talk as being the gendered opposites of each other. I'm not sure what the gendered opposite of "guy talk" is -- I think someone on that Metatalk thread suggested it was women getting together to talk smack about men. If it is, I don't think those kinds of threads would go over very well here either.

posted by Lassie 17 November | 16:45

...it had better be in lockstep

You know who else liked things to be "in lockstep?"

I keed, I keed. ;)

posted by ericb 17 November | 17:03

Interesting. I stopped reading the Blue and Grey quite a long time ago, and the Green a few months later, but I doubt my impression would be much different now than it was earlier.

I think the "Mefi is a boyzone" charge makes sense if you think about the fact that up until membership was re-opened, the most vocal, prolific posters were men, period. In fact, the majority of posters were men from a very similar background - predominantly north american caucasian men who could spend lots of time on the internet (so nerds, in other words). There were posts that flat-out made some women uncomfortable: not in a "omg dirty joke" kind of way but in a "oh my god, has anyone here actually TALKED to a woman before?" kind of way. I consider myself pretty "rough and tumble tomboy" kind of girl, but it was disheartening sometimes.

I suppose a girlzone...actually, I can't think of a comparable space on the internet. I suppose some of my knitting/crafting groups and wedding planning groups are somewhat similar - mostly women from similar backgrounds (lots of stay at home moms on knitting boards). I could see how men might be uncomfortable in those spaces, but then again I'm not a guy.

Is MeCha a girlzone? I don't think so, but then again I'm not a guy. It's troubling that some guys feel like they can't have guytalk without it being ruined by the wimmenfolk. But then again, I don't really know what guytalk is, unless its stuff like "Why are women so crazy?" or "Why do women suck the soul out of us with their constant nagging?" That's pretty sad guytalk.

posted by muddgirl 17 November | 17:50

Uh, BUNNIES! Bunnies everywhere. Sorta more feminine in that regard.

posted by craniac 17 November | 19:01

This is simply a happy place. Filled with bunnies.

To elaborate, people care about each other here, and act like it. Not that people don't care at the, ahem, other site, but being here is like being in a very cozy living room with pizza and cookies and beer and diet coke and lots of pillows.

posted by bunnyfire 17 November | 19:23

Lonefrontranger: My internet crush on you grows larger.

posted by CitrusFreak12 17 November | 19:31

I don't think it's a matter of gender so much as personality. It's kind of a matter of where you learned to argue and how your communication style developed. If, like me, you grew up in a house where people yelled and screamed a lot, and you gravitated towards rowdy friends and worked a long time in retail, you develop a certain verbal toughness and agression just as a survival tool. And that can sometimes clash with others who have different styles. But that transcends gender in my experience.

posted by jonmc 17 November | 19:32

I find Ask generally pretty supportive, but if I want to get my feelings vicariously hurt, I check into MetaTalk. Then, to regain my happy, I come here.

posted by thebrokedown 17 November | 19:33

I've been known to say things like "I'd like to be the filling in a Christian Bale and Hugh Jackman sandwich" and "that guy is so hot, he makes my ovaries hurt" once or twice myself, so I can't really take offense when some guy says "I'd hit it". That doesn't faze me, honestly. I also have no problem with OMG Boobiez and comments of that ilk.

Someone here started a thread about Bruce Springsteen once, and my only comment in the thread was that he was hot. What can I say....I like his cute little butt. It was really just one very small step from "I'd hit it", though, now that I think of it. I thought I was just sharing, but I guess I was being sexist and I should stop.

That said, there's a line that doesn't need to be crossed, and saying dismissive, hateful things like "now shut up and bend over" is so far over the line that when I turn around, I can't even see where the line originally was. And I have better than 20-20 vision.

posted by iconomy 17 November | 20:16

And there's a hell of a lot of flirting going on here, which is always fun.

OK now I am feeling slow and clueless. Could someone help me out and email me next time there's any loose flirting in the air?

Thanks.

posted by danf 17 November | 20:24

/me winks at danf

posted by mischief 17 November | 20:26

Thank you mischief.

I have to disclose that I ran to your profile to try and see if your gender is listed. It's not.

But we both speak IRC. There's a future out there for us!

/me blushes

posted by danf 17 November | 20:30

Hah...danf, that's so funny, because you're one of the people I thought of when I wrote that!

posted by iconomy 17 November | 20:30

Gender is such a relative word.

posted by mischief 17 November | 20:31

This will end in tears. or blood. or possibly stomach acid.

posted by jonmc 17 November | 20:37

I wouldn't push this idea too far, but I think MeCha is pretty close to what egalitarian looks like, on the internet at least.

Some may feel that that means 'girlzone,' but I think it only appears that way when one's experience is mostly with the usually 'boyzone' feel of MeFi and elsewhere. If you want to see a real 'girlzone' on the internet, try here or here.

The fairly even, and even-tempered, approach to gender here is one of the reasons many of us participate to the degree that we do. I treasure that, and it makes this site unusual. I don't think anyone's ever been forced to be in lockstep; people have exhaustive discussions here, and occasionally end up agreeing to disagree, but people generally ask you to be accountable to follow through and explain your reasoning on your arguments. That's not censorship, it's dialogue. Generally in contentious discussions about gender here, one party or other either concedes the point, or someone gets exhausted and quits posting.

I would say sites that maintain a safe environment for the open discussion of gender issues, and allow people to express deeply held views without fear of an idiot pile-on, are rare. Generally, as long as there is reasonable indication of goodwill, MeCha has been able to discuss almost anything without relegating anyone to the role of outsider.

posted by Miko 17 November | 23:19

I would say sites that maintain a safe environment for the open discussion of gender issues, and allow people to express deeply held views without fear of an idiot pile-on, are rare.

This is definitely not one of those sites, I'm afraid.

posted by pieisexactlythree 18 November | 00:21

miss lynnster, your comment is really more appropriate to one of the Metatalk threads over in Metatalk. We don't hash out Metatalk fights over here; it's unfair for a number of reasons. I imagine it will be deleted.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 01:09

My opinion is that MeCha is more of a girlzone than MF is a boyzone. Probably just a selective reinforcement thing because of the threads ogling male celebrities that are par for the course here yet the inverse would get one eviscerated on MF. I don't really notice if there are much in the way of female celebrity is hot threads here. A lot of talk about boobs here though.

That said I don't find the atmosphere here hostile towards men. But I don't find Metafilter hostile towards women either, the boyzone claim examples almost always seem to be a special case of the general internet fuckwad background noise that happens to stand out to a lot of people.

On preview: I've got to admit miss lynnster the crazy noise around your comment was a huge mess of much ado about nothing. Metafilter is like that a lot though. And by like that I mean arbitrary and tending towards pile ons. Most obviously in the way a single comment, especially early on in a post, can completely derail a thread.

And the flashing thing is a prime example of the double standard western society has towards male and female sexuality that makes identification of a "genderzone" a mine field of misconceptions and definitions. I don't recall ever hearing a woman flasher referred to as creepy for example.

posted by Mitheral 18 November | 01:11

I hate to be the evil overlord but miss lynnster and dano you are over the line. I will have to do a clean up.

posted by arse_hat 18 November | 01:13

I would say sites that maintain a safe environment for the open discussion of gender issues, and allow people to express deeply held views without fear of an idiot pile-on, are rare.

This is definitely not one of those sites, I'm afraid.

I agree.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 01:15

"On preview: I've got to admit miss lynnster the crazy noise around your comment was a huge mess of much ado about nothing. Metafilter is like that a lot though. And by like that I mean arbitrary and tending towards pile ons. Most obviously in the way a single comment, especially early on in a post, can completely derail a thread." Mitheral, that belongs on Metatalk.

Just for the record I have deleted two comments. One from miss lynnster and one from danostuporstar.

Hashing out Metafilter stuff belongs on Metatalk. This is a different site and we don't want to start wars.

posted by arse_hat 18 November | 01:28

Thanks, arsey. I've added a little reinforcing language to the part of the FAQ that covers this, and pointed it out in the blurb at the top of the main page here to help people a bit. Since we're mostly MeFites, and lots of new people come over from there all the time, maybe it will be helpful.

About box's question - I honestly don't know; some people definitely feel that way, just as some people definitely feel that it's cliquish, or that we enforce "niceness" ... or any number of things. Some of those ideas might surprise me, but if that is someone's experience here, then that is what it is to them, and so in some way, that is what it is.

For me, it's what mischief says, and just the sort of place where you might talk about what happened in your day, or what you dreamed last night, or get into some heartfelt discussion, or ask for some advice, just be exceedingly silly. I never have the impression I'm just drinking with the girls, but I can see where it could have that feeling.

posted by taz 18 November | 02:17

"This is important?" in tiny italic text? I never would have noticed that if you hadn't called my attention to it, taz.

posted by grouse 18 November | 06:01

As well as the tiny font, I doubt anyone ever clicks on things labelled "Please note: This is important". Be specific! (Also, is the notice really necessary? The two people who've fallen foul of it are long-time members, and I haven't noticed any influx of angry Mefites).

posted by matthewr 18 November | 07:42

I know the rule well. I bent it slightly because miss lynnster seemed to need some reassurance (based on her repeating the same message in various places).

I don't mind my comment being deleted in the least. I am displeased, however, that now the record now calls me out by name twice as an offender. It looks like I had done something really egregious, when I was just trying to support another member (and I'm really quite confident the mefite I mentioned wouldn't really give a fuck about what I said.)

posted by danostuporstar 18 November | 08:32

I hope you don't think it was a slap-your-hand kind of thing, dano; it was a note so there wouldn't be any mysterious comment disappearances with people asking what happened.

Grouse, I'd like to avoid putting a big notice on the posting page, but I guess that's what we'll do if it seems like a significant continuing problem.

posted by taz 18 November | 09:38

It's not necessary to name names to note the deletion.

posted by danostuporstar 18 November | 09:45

(And, no, I didn't take it as an intentional slap on the wrist. I still don't like it.)

posted by danostuporstar 18 November | 09:58

It wasn't necessary for you to name names here to reassure miss lynnster, either, dano, whether they give a fuck or not - and you knew that, and that it's basically the one thing we ask people not to do. So to indignantly protest as a wronged party when naming names was exactly why your comment was deleted is a bit weird. I'd love it if we could move on from here.

posted by taz 18 November | 10:08

Mecha is such a girlzone it's menstrual cycle affects the phases of the moon. FACT!

posted by dodgygeezer 18 November | 13:34

This is definitely not one of those sites, I'm afraid.

What makes you both say that?

posted by Miko 18 November | 14:53

I think you're allowed to discuss your deeply held views on controversial topics (gender, religion, etc.) here- as long as what you believe is in line with the beliefs of the more vocal members. If you don't, Metachat is no "safer" or nicer than Metafilter.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 15:33

Agreed.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 15:39

to go further: when somebody says they want to create a 'civil' enviornment, 99% of the time they mean they want to create a space where everybody agrees on everything and nobody ever airs any unpleasant thoughts or sentiments.

That's not civility, that's banality.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 15:45

when somebody says they want to create a 'civil' enviornment...- Yes, I agree, particularly that people often mean they don't want anyone to say anything unpleasant.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 15:49

So to indignantly protest as a wronged party when naming names was exactly why your comment was deleted is a bit weird. I'd love it if we could move on from here.

Wow, taz, that stings. I feel no indignation over the matter, but yeah I do feel wronged. 1) I didn't "out Valerie Plame" as it were, and never would have. I referenced a name that was already out there. iconomy had even brought up a comment by that user upthread. 2) Why don't I get the same consideration as the 'now bend over' guy? Geez, am I worse than him?

We've all been through some long emotional threads this weekend, so I may have come across more upset than I was. But I do I think publicly saying "user x, you're comments cross a line and I'm deleting them" is absolutely the wrong policy to adopt when "[some comments deleted]" will do. There is a big difference when a mod calls out somebody by name.

Given my feelings, what am I to do? Emailing arse_hat may have been better than addressing it in thread. That was exactly my intention when I first saw his comment and the deletion. It was late, though, so I decided to wait until morning. I actually thought he would probably rethink his comment and delete it too, along with TPS's regarding the matter, without a word from me. Instead, when I woke I found that I had been redundantly called out. At that point, making my feeling known in thread seemed like the best course of action.

After all, it wasn't that big a deal and easily (at that point at least) corrected. Just edit out the names. Instead my concerns were, ironically, dismissed as over-sensitive and weird. Yes, I'm weird. A lot of us here are. It's been a long time since I felt belittled for it as I feel now. Sorry I was unable to just "move on" without replying. I think I will try to do so for awhile now.

posted by danostuporstar 18 November | 15:53

Good grief! I go away for just two days and all hell breaks loose.

Didn't I say "play nice and share your toys" as I was heading out the door? Well? Didn't I?

*locks toys up, takes key*

posted by essexjan 18 November | 16:00

I can see why dano's upset, but I think mods should continue to name the authors of deleted comments where possible, not out of spite or punishment, but just to make the thread easier to follow. Otherwise, you often have no idea whether or not a comment is referring to someone's deleted comment, or why a thread took a turn in a particular direction, and it's all generally confusing.

Jan, I'm not sure all hell's broken loose. I sympathise with TPS and jonmc.

posted by matthewr 18 November | 16:11

Damn. ThePinkSuperHero and jonmc both complaining about other people being too vocal is interesting, because you're both really incredibly outspoken and active. I'm kind of surprised that you guys feel like you are oppressed by other people talking too much.

posted by taz 18 November | 16:16

To piggyback on what dano said, I have no idea why my comment re: miss lynnster is still here, as it only pertains to the comment that was deleted.

On preview: I'm outspoken on the things I think it's safe to talk about here. And it has nothing to do with other people "talking too much", it has to do with atmosphere, and I have no idea why people confuse the two.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 16:21

taz, I don't want to speak for TPS and jon, but that's not how I read their comments and certainly not why I agreed with them. And come on, if jon had actually said that vocal people were oppressing him, no one would be taking him seriously.

posted by matthewr 18 November | 16:28

Okay, at this point, I would rather people just be specific. As far as I can tell, we're talking about subjects where feminism/gender come up? Because I doubt it's about the recipes or dreams or kitties.

Am I correct for you, jon? ThePinkSuperhero, is that it for you as well? If not, what do you feel it's not safe to talk about?

posted by taz 18 November | 16:37

I'm not claiming 'oppression' (an extremely overused term, in my opinion). I'm merely stating the obvious: that if you express an opinion divergent from the majority opinion of the community (any community) you will take shit for it, even if it's about something trivial. That's just the way people are, for better or worse. In fact it's because our opinions are often divergent that me and TPS are so vocal, since we know we're going to have to speak for ourselves rather than have a peanut gallery seconding us for saying the popular thing.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 16:40

I was speaking more generally- for me, gender is not one of the topics where I feel that my opinion would not be respected (because it so often lies with that of the vocal majority), but given that religion is one of those issues for me, I can imagine why someone might feel like they couldn't speak their full piece on the gender issue.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 16:42

Am I correct for you, jon?

Gender issues, sometimes, but even trivial things like music or tv shows. And I don't feel unsafe, I just know I'm going to have to take my lumps for speaking my piece. and that's fine, I'm a big boy and life's a bitch as they say. Where I draw the line is being told that I can't voice those opinions or have no right to them, which thankfully rarely happens.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 16:43

(I don't mean this to be in response to TPS and jon, because I don't mean in any way to be dismissing what they're saying. Also, apologies in advance for being disjointed.)

What I like about MetaChat is that, for the most part, even where there are disagreements, the tone is reasonably civil and personal attacks are not allowed. I think there's a general sense (or maybe it's just a personal one) that we can agree to disagree once we hit deadlocks, rather than degenerating into personal insults. I think that's a good thing.

I don't think that makes it a girl zone, or one overly insistent on consensus. It's just an unspoken agreement that some debates are not going to be resolved here.

There are of course popular vs. unpopular ideas, but I don't feel like users who hold unpopular ideas get personally attacked to the same extent they do on MeFi; I'd be totally willing to believe they do get personally attacked more than is necessary or appropriate. But I do feel like for the most part, disagreements stay at the realm of content (the actual ideas being presented) and process (the way in which they are presented), rather than personal attack.

I do think sometimes that discussion of process gets mistaken for personal attack, because in general we're not very good (society in general, I think, and internet cultures in particular) at talking about process.

Actually, I wonder if, to some extent, the focus on "processing" is what strikes some as girly?

Still, even if we fail in specific instances, I think there's an overall culture here that at least believes in hearing different viewpoints and understanding where those viewpoints are coming from, rather than automatically dismissing them. Which is nice.

posted by occhiblu 18 November | 16:53

I don't catch every thread - not even close; so bear with me. TPS, are you saying that there have been posts about religion here where you have been dissed or shut down?

posted by taz 18 November | 17:01

jonmc: Gender issues, sometimes, but even trivial things like music or tv shows.

I liked what TPS said above about religion and gender, but I don't understand what you're saying about music and TV: there's no-one more vocal or less willing to succumb to peer pressure on these subjects than you, and I don't see any enforced agreement about music or TV at all, or how it could be 'unsafe' for you to discuss them. Indeed, when you did your 'jonmc defends the indefensible' series, I remember thinking it was pretty anticlimactic because people mostly just agreed with you — so I'm confused here.

posted by matthewr 18 November | 17:03

The original comment I responded to above by pieisexactlythree referenced: a site that maintains a safe environment for the open discussion of (gender) issues, and allow[s] people to express deeply held views without fear of an idiot pile-on. I don't have to be personally shut down in a thread on a religion to know that it wouldn't go over well on all levels. Because it is an important issue to me, I don't really care to throw my pearls to pigs, so I don't- I also don't bother reminding people in the regular LOLXTIAN threads that we're not all athiests on this site, but again, why bother? I get the feeling that (some) people wouldn't care, and prefer to be comfortable. I don't rock the boat because, eh, whatever, I'd prefer to be comfortable, too- I'll just post a thread about something else I want to talk about, like lip gloss or books or theatre.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 17:11

So, you haven't been mistreated in threads about religion because you don't comment in threads about religion, and you don't comment because you feel like people here would be hostile to you in those threads?

posted by taz 18 November | 17:15

I'm not sure what the point would be, honestly- I think Metachat fills a role as a comfortable place for people to shoot the shit (I like the "happy hour" description). I don't know if people come here to have their mind blown by the things other people think they don't know. Metachat has done threads on controversial topics (plenty of gender threads, for sure), and I don't know that anyone learned anything they didn't already know or gained anything positive from the experience. That's not saying I wouldn't participate in any thread on a religious topic going forward, but I'm not going to throw myself into a fire and not expect to get burned.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 17:22

matthewr: on MeFi I've taken huge amounts of shit both for saying I don't like [insert band popular on MeFi here], for saying that I like [insert unpopular band here] and a few times just for saying that [insert even more unpopular band here] wasn't so bad. So I work on the presumrtion that people are going to violently disagree, even if it's just to get a rise out of me or score points.

I do think sometimes that discussion of process gets mistaken for personal attack, because in general we're not very good (society in general, I think, and internet cultures in particular) at talking about process.

Well, sometimes that can come across as telling people why the think what they think and that can come across as condescending.

I think there's an overall culture here that at least believes in hearing different viewpoints and understanding where those viewpoints are coming from, rather than automatically dismissing them.

Well, a lot of the time I try to do that and a lot of the time it gets mistaken for absolving or defending the point of view rather than just offering an opinion on how it came to pass.

And a lot of it happens because I'm a victim of my own visibility. People react to the name rather than what's being said (mainly on MeFi, which is why I'm taking a powder there for a while) and they'll say something to get my back up and I'll lose my temper and say something i regret and it's not worth it anymore.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 17:29

So, TPS - you don't see any point in discussing religion here. That's entirely and perfectly reasonable (though I'd be extremely surprised if people here were anything but completely civil and engaged if you did). But why do you think that it's not a safe environment because of the risk of idiot pile-ons, when this hasn't happened to you?

posted by taz 18 November | 17:41

Thinking back to controversial threads we've had in the past (and I can't think of any solid exmaples), I can see why some people might not feel expressing their opinions on some topics. Which is what I said.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 17:46

I also think that one of our greatest strengths (the diversity of people and life experiences here) can also be one of our greatest weaknesses since it seems like we're talking across a chasm of experience sometimes. A relatively trivial example: occhiblu (don't take this personally) posted a thread about how the fact that people were yelling at eachother at her workplace was so upsetting, and I'll admit my first response was 'jeez, a day at my job would have her in a straitjacket.' And I'm sure it goes in the other direction, too, so we oftentimes talk right past eachother.

posted by jonmc 18 November | 17:53

jonmc: Sure, you get piled-on on Mefi about music, but your original point was that you end up "taking shit" about subjects on MetaChat, and I don't see how this is the case for music and TV.

taz: This discussion parallels the boyzone discussion on Mefi - but here, you're on the side of the people who dismiss womens' concerns. If someone said that women couldn't complain about 'boyzone' on Mefi unless they had personally been piled-on in a discussion about gender, that would rightly be criticised as an absurd view, and it's exactly the same as the view you're taking here, judging from the interrogation of TPS.

posted by matthewr 18 November | 17:55

Well, maybe you're right. I didn't even know we had a lot idiot pile-on religion threads, and definitely didn't know that TPS was feeling like she didn't want to express herself here because of stuff like that, and I feel pretty weird about that. I think I need to read more metachat.

posted by taz 18 November | 18:03

... and after 1 a.m. here, so I'm off. I'm sorry, TPS, for badgering you.

posted by taz 18 November | 18:11

No problemo! It's been a Metatalk-y weekend- I'm just soaking it all in. It's my way of celebrating my 3 year anniversary in the Metauniverse. ;-)

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 18:14

I can't ever recall anyone being actually silenced; oftentimes they (we) silence themselves after getting tired of an elaborate discussion, but this isn't a place people get shouted down. All TPS and jonmc seem to be saying that it's hard to be a voice for a minority opinion. And you know what? It is hard being the voice for a minority opinion. But understanding that your opinion is a minority opinion, and sticking to it as both of them do, is completely different from feeling that your opinion isn't considered, noticed, and responded to. There are many, many people here who have had the courage to express a minority opinion. The thing I love about this site is that other readers will often challenge that opinion, but usually with respect, not with an idiot pile-on. That's the difference I see.

I hear other complaints here now and then, but what I see more often than someone being argued down is someone assuming that their point of view will be opposed before they have even expressed it -- people reacting to an imagined opposition, or to their past experience. No one can do anything about that baggage - you just have to ask "Why do you see it that way?" or say "What might be going on is this..." or "My experience has been...", etc. It's hard to even get that far on other sites, because the reaction is usually responded to with an equal and opposite reaction very quickly and the conversation becomes hostile. I think the times that someone here goes looking to be hostile, and pre-emptively employs a hostile tone, are pretty rare. They happen, but they're rare.

posted by Miko 18 November | 21:13

someone might feel like they couldn't speak their full piece on the gender issue

What I'm saying is that anyone can speak their full piece. No one can guarantee that they won't be disagreed with; but that's not the same thing as censorship at all. And when you've reached an independent decision that you don't like discussing Topic X at a certain site because many people will disagree with you, it's not the site that's to blame. Each of us decides where to spend our time and where to post. I bow out of a lot of gender discussions, not because I don't have a minority opinion, but because I don't have the energy to take the argument as far as it needs to go. That doesn't mean I've been oppressed or fear to speak my full piece. It just means I understand that the nature of the discussion at this time is not one that I choose to participate in.

Another interesting point that may apply to your concern about religion, TPS: Almost every time I get into a heated discussion about MeFi, particularly as regards gender, I might take shit inthread, but I get a ton of back-channel emails essentially in support of what I'm saying by non-posters. For every one of those, there may be even more lurkers whose names we don't even know. Sometimes, in arguments, I'm conscious not only that the participants are reading what we're saying, but that lurkers and non-participants are reading as well. On occasion I even feel a bit of obligation just to wedge another point of view in to show that the appearance of unaniminity on certain topics is just an illusion created by the fact that sometimes people will stick their neck out a lot, or have more time on their hands to comment, and so will comment a lot. The discussion has to center on the written words, but there are observers to all these conversations. I know it's tiring, but if you have a truth to speak, you can still speak it here. Ultimately, here, in matters of opinion as opposed to fact, people who are just diametrically opposed tend to have to retreat to "well, that's just the way I see it, anyway." But you may have swayed a quiet reader.

posted by Miko 18 November | 21:23

It just means I understand that the nature of the discussion at this time is not one that I choose to participate in.

Yea, that's what I said. I'm not saying people "can't" speak their full piece- I'm saying this community might not be set up in a way where everyone wants to. For us to say, oh ya, we love and accept all viewpoints equally, we create a safe environment for everyone's thoughts on every subject- no, not true.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 18 November | 21:30

I would say that it's a safe environment in that is not OK to insult or flame. To love and accept all viewpoints equally would be to have absolutely no character at all; just a graffiti board.

posted by Miko 18 November | 22:05

What is wrong with people in the MeTaVerse these last few days? Take a step back, people, for fuck's sake! I have never seen anyone "shut down" here and I manage to read pretty much everything that goes on (if a trifle too late to do anything about it, often). If anything, I would like to see more vigorous debate here because people tend to agree too much for my liking sometimes. Which is a nice counterpoint to life sometimes, but still ...

Back on topic, I don't think MeCha is a girlzone at all. By comparison with MeFi, maybe it is, but that is a skewed viewpoint. I think this place is about as gender-balanced as you could hope any community to be. I like that anyone can note that they would "hit it", either directly or by inference and nobody calls them out for it. I like that opinions are generally respected, if not agreed with.

posted by dg 19 November | 06:43

Hi, I'm back. /sheepish_grin*

But I do feel like for the most part, disagreements stay at the realm of content (the actual ideas being presented) and process (the way in which they are presented), rather than personal attack.

I do think sometimes that discussion of process gets mistaken for personal attack, because in general we're not very good (society in general, I think, and internet cultures in particular) at talking about process.--occhi

Well, sometimes that can come across as telling people why the think what they think and that can come across as condescending.--jon

No one can do anything about that baggage - you just have to ask "Why do you see it that way?" or say "What might be going on is this..." or "My experience has been...", etc. --Miko

This is the crux of the problem I've had at times. It's entirely fair to say that the content of particular comment and the way it was said is sexist (or whatever -ist). But (if I understand what occhi means by "process") the "way it was said" is sometimes extended into theories regarding the whys and wherefores of how the commenter came to such an opinion.

I usually don't want to have that discussion. I want to express my opinion on topic, without a lot of meta discussion of why I hold it. That's when it becomes too personal for my tastes, and feels attack-y.

If somebody comes back at me with "Why do you see it that way?" or say "What might be going on is this...", well I will likely respond defensively. Now I'm willing to admit this is mostly my own weirdness, about which nobody but me can do much. But I don't think it's far out of line to say that I shouldn't (usually) be presented with unsolicited questions or assumptions about my motivations for commenting here.

I am generally aware of my privilege. Reminding me of it is fine on occasion, but it's really not so much addressing the content of my comments as it the contents of my character. It's kinda heavy when you think you're discussing something trivial on metachat.

And when you've reached an independent decision that you don't like discussing Topic X at a certain site because many people will disagree with you, it's not the site that's to blame. Each of us decides where to spend our time and where to post.

I agree with this entirely, and it's basically my response to boyzone complaints about MeFi. People should say when some aspect the site's culture is less than ideal for them (given an appropriate context for that discussion of course), but if they generally enjoy the site they shouldn't expect much in the way of change, as such changes may have unintended effects on the organic bits of the site that make it great.

I love MetaChat and all of you just the way you are. Sharing my perceptions regarding it being a 'girl zone' are not meant to be a request for anything (or anybody) to change.

*Actually, I was gonna post about how incredibly depressed I was yesterday that I spent the last three days mentally pre-occupied with these threads and had nothing to show for it except a bunch of people pissed off at me, and how I avoided explaining to my wife that the reason I couldn't eat or hold a decent conversation was that I was having a fight with the people in the computer. I was even considering a little TMI about Miss Lynster's way-back original question**, but got sucked into all the good stuff in thread since my little mod-policy derail, so you'll just hafta wonder about that one. :)

**No, I've never flashed anybody.

posted by danostuporstar 19 November | 13:38

Thanks, dano; I'm glad you like it here, and I'm really, really glad you're going to stick around.

and really, really, really glad you haven't flashed anyone. :)

posted by taz 20 November | 03:37

17 November 2007