MetaChat - Us and Them

Sometimes. But we primitives can act strange sometimes, you know.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 07:31

It's common, but not constant. I generally don't. At least with (American) football, it seems to be somewhat more common at the high school and college level than at the pro level.

posted by deadcowdan 24 September | 07:40

But we primitives can act strange sometimes, you know.

Touché... don't get me wrong: I don't hate on all sport, I get tired of it being the only topic of discussion. It's a safe small talk option, like the weather, so it gets abused by people who don't know each other well (and don't want to) like cow-orkers. Football occupies a huge chunk of world culture, as well, because most countries use it as part of their national identity.

I do hate the commercialization of sport, though. It really puts me off. Since I know that Chelsea have the money to buy the best players, I know they (or Man U) will always win in the end. Where's the sport in that?

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:01

I also find the "we" thing strange. I say "they". Especially when my team is losing. Which is more often than not.

posted by mike9322 24 September | 08:02

Sure beats, "We liked that movie, didn't we, honey?"

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 08:10

"We liked that movie, didn't we, honey?"

Funny you should say that! I often try and steer sports conversations towards film!

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:11

Touché... don't get me wrong: I don't hate on all sport,

Also, you may live in England, but you're American. It's 'sports,' with an 's.'

posted by jonmc 24 September | 08:12

When I think about it the "we" thing sounds silly. But I find myself reverting to that style during conversation. Since we normally associate ourselves with sports teams from our schools and the places we live, it seems natural and unavoidable to me.

posted by mullacc 24 September | 08:12

So do you often find yourself steering sport conversations to film through John Huston's Victory?

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 08:15

Also, you may live in England, but you're American.

Fuck that. I don't live in America; don't pay taxes in America; don't vote in America and don't think in American terms any longer. I spell words properly and use British terms because I strive to be understood.

If I could afford to take diction lessons to scrub my accent, I'd do it. Which reminds me, I need to read up on that citizenship test.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:17

mullacc, you have a point. If it weren't natural, people wouldn't do it. I'm just glad that I'll never be expected to support a team (because Aston Villa sucks).

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:19

So do you often find yourself steering sport conversations to film through John Huston's Victory?

No, but I should. That's a good one.

(they made a film called We Are Marshall about my alma mater, and it's an absolute turd - I guess that explains my distaste for this pronoun misuse!)

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:22

Here in the 'burgh, people say "Our Steelers," as if the community had an actual share in the team.

posted by octothorpe 24 September | 08:24

That would make sense in Green Bay.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 08:26

Part of what is wonderful (to me) about sports is the community that is created simply by rooting for the same team. Yes, when you think about it it's quite silly - just because I root for the same team as some random dude down the street doesn't mean we are buddies. Yet, this connection is formed. After a few seasons (best if some are winning and some are losing seasons) I start to identify with the team. My stomach does flip-flops when Rex Grossman throws a bajillion interceptions. My heart is in my throat when Hester runs a kick back for a touchdown. And my sports heart is big enough for several teams - I may live in Chicago now but I also still love my hometown Bills.

So, what I'm trying to say in a really long winded way is that when I say "We sure did suck last night", I'm not identifying myself with the players alone - I'm identifying myself with the mom in the suburbs, the guy selling newspapers on the street corner, and every other person that also felt that same heartbreak last night.

posted by misskaz 24 September | 08:44

We Are Bunnies.

*headbutts chuckdarwin*

posted by rainbaby 24 September | 08:51

*headbutts chuckdarwin*

Ow. Jesus.

(further explanation: my late father was a sportswriter whose work regarding Marshall is part of the local canon on the subject, and my brother is also in the game)

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 08:58

Us and Them. Indeed.

posted by chewatadistance 24 September | 09:58

It's a tribal thing. It's about where I'm from, especially since I don't live there anymore, and in fact now live in the "territory" of a "rival" team. No one would mistake me for a football player, but it's not really about identifying with the team per se as it is about having a camaraderie with the other fans. Why do teams tend to have better records at home? Because they are supported by the fans. So the fans do have some small part in the team's success, even if they never set foot on the field.

In my estimation it's a big step up from having tribal warfare.

posted by desjardins 24 September | 10:21

It really annoys me and if I'm feeling combative I'll say something about it. Then I realize that it's a stupid thing to be annoyed about and I'm being kind of a jerk and I shouldn't be so angry about things that make people happy.

posted by Divine_Wino 24 September | 10:32

I'm being kind of a jerk and I shouldn't be so angry about things that make people happy.

Don't sum me up so easily! *laughs*

I guess I should find a country that isn't absolutely nuts about sport. Wait... there isn't one?

Shit.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 10:41

Us and Them. Indeed.

Touchy? The ratio of footy fans to non-footy fans here is like 10000000000000 to 1, so it's pretty easy to feel isolated by it.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 10:43

Touchy? The ratio of footy fans to non-footy fans here is like 10000000000000 to 1, so it's pretty easy to feel isolated by it.

Footy? Please stop. Do you insist on calling a tallboy of Bud a 'pint,' too?

Feeling isolated because you're into something nobody's into or vice versa is something that happens when you're 16. Adults realize that something harmless that brings pleasure into somebody's live isn't a bad thing and that maybe you can even learn to appreciate it.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 10:52

Footy? Please stop. Do you insist on calling a tallboy of Bud a 'pint,' too?

No, I call that piss in a can. Pints come in glasses. You're a smart guy, you can keep up, can't you?

(badgering me about syntax in this context isn't going to make me stop)

Feeling isolated because you're into something nobody's into or vice versa is something that happens when you're 16. Adults realize that something harmless that brings pleasure into somebody's live isn't a bad thing and that maybe you can even learn to appreciate it.

So you're telling me to just go along with the herd, now? Moo.

Tell you what, the second they take all the money and corporate sponsorship away; everyone stops betting millions of pounds on every match; the second that every athlete does it for free; the second Bulgarian crime lords stop buying up all the clubs; I'll watch it. I'll waste every free moment watching other people have fun while I sit there like a lump, fretting over some arbitrary number on a scoreboard.

I've got plenty of time.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 11:10

So you're telling me to just go along with the herd, now? Moo.

No, because you're a special little snowflake. But so's everyone until a herd of cows comes along and pisses.

What we're telling you is to quit acting like not caring about sports makes you some kind of higher enlightened being rather than a smug, self-satisfied arrogant bore who thinks he's doing the rest of the world a favor by lettusing breathe the same oxygen.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 11:15

jon, why shouldn't chuck call it 'footy'? He lives in Britain, after all. In other threads you've criticised people who come back to the US after an exchange year in the UK and insist on talking like the bastard son of Dick van Dyke and Bertie Wooster - and I couldn't agree with you more, these people deserve the noose.

But if you actually move to another country, picking up the language is perfectly natural. You'd just look stupid if you went around calling it "soccer" here.

FYI, the only thing you call a pint here is an actual pint in a pint glass. Out of interest, in America what do you call beer in a glass rather than a bottle or can? Do people not ask for a pint of Guinness or whatever?

As for sport, I don't really follow football but lots of my friends do, and they often use "we". I don't really have a problem with it, especially when talking about the national team rather than clubs.

chuck, if you don't like football, the sport of overpaid, diving prima-donnas, why not follow a proper sport like rugby. Some of the matches in the current World Cup have been fantastic, like Tonga vs South Africa the other day.

posted by matthewr 24 September | 11:20

Adults realize that something harmless that brings pleasure into somebody's live isn't a bad thing and that maybe you can even learn to appreciate it.

This is a boot that's been on another foot(y) when it comes to music appreciation and it's just an excuse for namecalling. Labels like hypocrisy and pretension only tell us about the observer and what they do and think, and these wildly extrapolated speak-for-others rants, while full of personal truth, don't have a goddamn grain of universality.

As far as the language thing, hell, I lived in Japan, and when I was there, guess what? I spoke Japanese. It made it easier for people to understand me. I guess the UK usage is the same, since most every USAmerican I know who's spent more than a year over there does it. It's when in Rome shit, not pretension.

Maybe I'm misreading how contentious this is, or just on a hair trigger myself, but it's a crock of shit either way.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 11:32

Yeah, since I've lived in the US, I now say "sports" rather than "sport", I say "soccer" rather than "football" (although my NZ friends are 50/50 in what they call it), I say "football" rather than "american football", I say "hockey" rather than "ice hockey" and "field hockey" rather than "hockey". I've also modified my vowels, because I get sick of repeating myself all the time.

None of that is pretension. It's the when in rome phenomenon. I notice you've never called me out on it either jon... maybe because I'm doing it in the other direction?

oh yeah, what HJ said.

posted by gaspode 24 September | 11:39

As far as the language thing, hell, I lived in Japan, and when I was there, guess what? I spoke Japanese.

Hugh, that's because it's a foreign language and if you spoke English, most people wouldn't understand you. Both England and US use the same language, with a few variations. I doubt any Brit dosen't know that 'movies' and 'cinema' are the same thing. He's been in the UK, what, a year, and he drops more Limey-isms than Peter Cook on a toot. And he's constantly reminding us how glad he is to be out of America and away from us barbarians. Forgive us if we get a little testy (and yes, I know that I'm not alone here).

If he dosen't like sports, that his own business. The fact that he seems to think that anyone who does is some kind of lower being is what irritates the fuck out of me.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 11:43

gaspode: maybe you've adopted a few Americanisms for the sake of clarity, but you don't go around saying 'hey, dude,' and 'y'all' either.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 11:46

Actually, I say y'all all the time. I did when I lived in NZ as well. I hate how the english language doesn't have a different 2nd person plural.

posted by gaspode 24 September | 11:49

Back to the subject of sports... :)

I understand the distaste for the "commercialism", but I have a hard time agreeing that athletes should do their job for free. I mean, most professional athletes combine incredible talent with a whole lot of hard work. They also risk serious injury. Yes, the good ones still have a "love of the game", but they should be able to earn a living doing it, shouldn't they? And I don't even mind how much most of them get paid. The highly paid ones are (ideally) the best-of-the-best, and in any field the top few are going to get paid well. I know reasonable minds will disagree with me on that one. :)

I enjoy semi-pro and amateur sports as well (in particular, the minor league hockey around here is loads of fun), but I don't deny that there is a different caliber of play in the pro leagues. At least some of that comes from the fact that the pro athletes are paid to be athletes and can dedicate their lives to it.

posted by misskaz 24 September | 11:58

Man, I so have a new mecha crush.

posted by danostuporstar 24 September | 12:05

I'm not identifying myself with the players alone - I'm identifying myself with the mom in the suburbs, the guy selling newspapers on the street corner, and every other person that also felt that same heartbreak last night.

Well said, misskaz.

posted by box 24 September | 12:11

Oh yeah. And to be on topic. I use the "we" formulation all the time. Being an Orioles fan, it's pretty much always "we suck" but there you go. Community through suffering :)

posted by gaspode 24 September | 12:14

Alright, fine, so my Japanese example helped you elude the point, jonmc. The same thing went for talking to the limeys I knew when I lived in Israel. It was easier to say a team "have" something and have them agree, than to say a team "has" something and either be looked at weird or have the same conversation about diction that comes up every damn time I don't say "have."

I just don't understand the need to tell someone how to speak, based on nothing more than a glancing acquaintance and a limited glimpse of an inner life. Nor do I understand the urge to impute motives on someone else, based on what? How you'd feel if you were in his shoes? That's not fair.

As far as hating America is concerned, I live here, and I hate America. I have since I was a wee little kid and my government-issue daddy said, "[Hugh], being an American means you have the right to like and dislike anything you want about your country, and say so." Thanks, dad. I hate America.

Don't you think "and away from us barbarians" is a rather strangely personal way to take his stance? I don't get that from what he says, and I have a feeling he doesn't really feel that way, and that words are being put in his mouth.

I don't really want to speak for either of you, but this is a strange place to launch a strange attack.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 12:14

Fuck that. I don't live in America; don't pay taxes in America; don't vote in America and don't think in American terms any longer. I spell words properly and use British terms because I strive to be understood.

If I could afford to take diction lessons to scrub my accent, I'd do it.

chuckdarwin, to me this implies that you feel British spellings are more proper. And scrubbing your accent? I'm sure you are understood. Yeah, use the terms, but I've sensed a pattern of:

If he dosen't like sports, that his own business. The fact that he seems to think that anyone who does is some kind of lower being is what irritates the fuck out of me.

You complain frequently, and anything in the positive realm comes off as bragging.

You can post whatever you want and I hope you have fun with metachat, but for my personal fun, I pretty much just ignore you.

posted by rainbaby 24 September | 12:15

Don't you think "and away from us barbarians" is a rather strangely personal way to take his stance? I don't get that from what he says, and I have a feeling he doesn't really feel that way, and that words are being put in his mouth.

Sorry, but I've just had it up to here with him. He obviously thinks the world of himself and thinks we should too.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 12:22

Oh, that's different, then.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 12:26

He obviously thinks the world of himself and thinks we should too.

You know who else obviously thinks the world of himself and thinks we should, too?

More on-topic, I find myself saying "we" sometimes when I talk about "my" (American) football team, but since it's the Green Bay Packers and I actually own one five-millionth or so of them, I feel it's justified.

posted by dersins 24 September | 12:37

Here in the 'burgh, people say "Our Steelers," as if the community had an actual share in the team.

Long time professional teams are often deeply intwined in the fabric and very history of the area. They're involved in charity, promotion, events, etc. So I don't find it strange at all that a community would identify with their team.

posted by justgary 24 September | 12:44

Yeah, and, as w/Green Bay, the Rooney family is committed to Pittsburgh in a way that a lot of owners are clearly not.

posted by box 24 September | 12:52

rainbaby, did you mean to quote me and jonmc in the same breath?

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 13:06

Yes. I meant to convey that I was agreeing with jonmc. Two boxes, two breaths. Sorry, unclear.

posted by rainbaby 24 September | 13:14

No, because you're a special little snowflake.

I'm not saying that I'm a special snowflake; I'm saying that I'm a don't follow football but I live in a world full of obsessed fans. It gets old listening to people rattling on about endlessly.

Unfortunately, I can't just start liking sport and listening to KISS because you want me to. These sorts of distinctions seem a lot more important online. In RL, I have a lot of friends who state different preferences and it's no big thing. Online, it's kind of a dealbreaker.

Sorry I got under your skin.

DICK
Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels?

BARRY
(defensive)
No. The Righteous Brothers.

DICK
Oh well. Nevermind.

Barry bristles and moves slowly in on Dick.

BARRY
What?

DICK
Nothing.

BARRY
No, not nothing. What's wrong with
the Righteous Brothers?

DICK
Nothing. I just prefer the other
one.

BARRY
Bullshit.

ROB
How can it be bullshit to state a
preference?

BARRY
Since when did this shop become a
fascist regime?

ROB
Since you brought that bullshit
tape in.

BARRY
(sarcastic)
Great. That's the fun of working
in a record store. Playing crappy
pap you don't want to listen to. I
thought this tape was going to be,
you know, a conversation stimulator.
I was going to ask you for your top
five records to play on a Monday
morning and all that, and you just
had to ruin it.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 13:15

I hate how the english language doesn't have a different 2nd person plural.

What are youse guys talking about? It certainly does in Philly.

And misskaz has it. I'm not a huge sports fan, but I follow the Eagles and the Phills and the Flyers. It's a thoroughly masochistic endeavor and using collective pronouns helps to remind me that though I may suffer, I do not suffer alone.

(Also, I like to think that chuckdarwin may actually be Gwyneth Paltrow.)

posted by jrossi4r 24 September | 13:16

Us and Them. Indeed.

Touchy?...

You missed my whole point, which is that the concept of "us and them" also applies to likes and dislikes of anything.

As far as touchy goes, it would appear by other comments in the thread that I'm not alone in perceiving your snobbery and vanity in many topics that always seem to come back to, "I left America, I am great and smart." Which implies "...and you're not.", whether you intend it or not.

posted by chewatadistance 24 September | 13:17

Thanks, Hugh, for leaping to my defence. It's nice of you. Email me.

I think this may be where I make a graceful exit.

Goodnight, folks.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 13:20

Dude, it's the middle of the day. What, you've set your watch to English time too!? ;)

posted by danostuporstar 24 September | 13:24

I follow the Eagles and the Phills and the Flyers. It's a thoroughly masochistic endeavor....

Oh yeah? Well, I root for the O's, the Caps, and the Skins. Talk about masochistic. At least the Iggles can beat us.

This is why I watch the soccer. Say what you will about the low quality of MLS (and it's not really a quality of play issue as much as it is quality of officiating), but at least my home team, DC United, is a winner.

I'm sure some Americans think I'm pretentious for liking soccer. Fuck 'em. I went to Johann Motherfucking Cruyff's Washington Diplomats soccer camp when I was a tot; I understand and enjoy the game, both playing and watching; most importantly, though, I can go out with a soccer ball and make friends of both sexes much easier than with a basball or a football.

But there are loads of reasons behind my thinking, some of which I've elucidated, most of which I haven't consciously considered yet. Just like there are loads of reasons for everything I do, and everything everyone else does. When I think about how complicated even rooting for a ball team is, I start giving others the benefit of the doubt. When I don't think, I don't.

But that's just me.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 13:34

I'm sure some Americans think I'm pretentious for liking soccer.

Oh hell nah. I loooooove soccer. It's fun to watch and easy to understand. But mostly, I like soccer players. Legs like thoroughbreds and oh the stamina.

posted by jrossi4r 24 September | 14:11

"Hugh, that's because it's a foreign language and if you spoke English, most people wouldn't understand you."

British English is a different language than American English, and if one wishes to communicate well with someone from another country, one should attempt to use their language. Just because there are more similarities than differences between the two languages does not mean the two are the same.

If I know a different word that will make communication with a British person smoother, I use it. Just as I would use a Spanish or French word if I know one that will make communication easier.

To that end, when I talk sport with Brits I use footie so as not to be confused with American football.

Oh... and as a supporter of a team I feel a connection with the team and, therefore, use "we" and "our" when speaking of those teams. However, I only do that with fellow supporters, family and close friend who understand what the fuck it is I am saying.

Go Steelers!

posted by terrapin 24 September | 15:08

Unfortunately, I can't just start liking sport and listening to KISS because you want me to.

chuck, I don't give a fat rat's ass whether you like KISS, soccer, or rice-a-roni. In fact there are several people on this board who despise these things whom I consider excellent company. It's the fact that you want someone to pin a medal on you for your opinions that's managed to alienate a site full of generally fairly amiable people. Does the the thought 'am I being an asshole?' ever actually occur to you?

posted by jonmc 24 September | 16:15

Man, that shit ain't fair. I love you, but that shit ain't fair at all.

posted by Hugh Janus 24 September | 16:31

come to the pad and we'll talk it out over a beer.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 16:42

Where are pot and kettle when you really need them?

posted by dersins 24 September | 16:53

Hugh, i think this is more in the realm of lapsed Catholics, only in this case it's a lapsed American being the ugliest American. The self congratulatory Englishmen is often beat down before they leave shore.

It's funny, despite any problems i've had with aspects of the jonmc, he's part of an us to me. Maybe it's time spent, maybe it's some sense of common history, but mostly it's because he always seems to accept and remember me, which is oddly touching.

posted by ethylene 24 September | 16:53

This can obviously only be solved by a knife fight.

Now, who wants the Shefftec British Military knife, and who wants the Jersey switchblade?

posted by taz 24 September | 17:05

i'm not a joiner, an us/them type or a we'er, and i hate being accidentally dragged along in a net or a tide, but, yeah, the irony alarm is loud.
Still, the difference so apparently "we"'re suppose to know jon is putting up a big front, which, frankly, doesn't really come across.
We's and us' and thems, i don't think i'm in any of them here, but it's all so perfect to have this come up here.
What do we win? Who's got the ball?
Do we all get to play?

posted by ethylene 24 September | 17:05

difference IS apparently

*tired*

posted by ethylene 24 September | 17:13

chuckdarwin: I hope you can someday resolve your deep bitterness and anger over whatever it is that impelled you to move out of the US.

As to sport, I haven't personally referred to a team as "mine" since my days of managing my high school football team. But I guess the (football) Patriots would do in a pinch, at least when I'm sharing the couch of a Sunday afternoon with Mr. init.

posted by initapplette 24 September | 17:33

*looks from jonmc to chuckdarwin, finds it impossible to say which is which*

posted by dg 24 September | 17:34

≡ Click to see image ≡

"we"'re suppose to know jon is putting up a big front,

you assume too much.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 17:41

i assume nothing. It's something you've said over and over.

How very appropriate you're here while i am waiting for a drink.

posted by ethylene 24 September | 17:46

≡ Click to see image ≡

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 18:18

...misskaz has had several drinks now. (Yay for bosses that take their department out for wine for someone's bday!)

Can we talk about sports some more? I tried to join sportsfilter but it asked me sports questions I didn't know when I tried to register.

posted by misskaz 24 September | 18:35

How do you feel about hockey? Because this really pissed me off this morning. One of the reasons "nobody" watches hockey here in America is because the major networks don't cover it; NBC threw us a bone last year and covered part of the last half of the season. And honestly, the coverage was for shit. Versus isn't awful, but it's not all that great, either. I love the coverage on CBC (Yay for Hockey Night in Canada!), but they only cover Canadian teams. As much as I like seeing the Falmes and Canucks play just about every week, I only get to see the Sharks play maybe once or twice before the playoffs. That sucks.

Was that the kind of thing you were looking for, misskaz?

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 18:48

psst, misskaz...

Chuck Howley

Entertainment

Beijing

(though, of course, you're quite welcome to talk about either sport or sports here)

:)

posted by taz 24 September | 18:51

chuckdarwin: I hope you can someday resolve your deep bitterness and anger over whatever it is that impelled you to move out of the US.

We can sum it up easily: apathy. No one in America cares enough to change anything, and I can't imagine a time during which they will. Look at Iraq: the people who care don't agree, and the the people who don't - well, they don't even care.

Terrible things are allowed to occur with almost no dissent. The voices that cry foul are very small and distant. Nothing changes.

Prove me wrong.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 19:08

bmarkey:

I grew up in Buffalo, NY. Do I like hockey? That may be the silliest question anyone's ever asked me. :) The Sabres are my team. I am worried that their off season personnel losses (Briere, et. al.) will hurt their playoff chances, although my brother says they will still be contenders. I really enjoyed watching them this past season. (Even on Versus - I'm lucky enough to get that channel and have HD so it was actually quite nice to see hockey on my fancy tv.)

The NHL did two things wrong in recent years - one, it over-expanded. It over-expanded into the south, where it was never going to get a solid fan base. The expansion diluted talent. Two, the strike hurt hockey, much more than the baseball strike hurt the MLB. After the strike, the networks saw no reason to make room for NHL in their schedules.

P.S. taz, thanks darlin'!!

posted by misskaz 24 September | 19:09

*looks from jonmc to chuckdarwin, finds it impossible to say which is which*

In person, we'd probably start a band. On the net, we're likely to kill each other.

posted by chuckdarwin 24 September | 19:10

Prove me wrong.

Bush's overall job rating.

Apathy? I, and many others, have protested against the war in Iraq, from day 1. and don't act like England is some bastion of freedom. They invented imperialism.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 19:13

misskaz: I'm a relative newcomer to hockey, so I may have gotten this wrong, but didn't most of the teams in the South move there from Canada? I seem to recall a lot more Canadian teams than there are now. Either way, it doesn't really make any sense. Also, every game I've ever seen that was played in the south featured exceptionally rotten ice.

Also, yeah, the strike did no one any favors.

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 19:17

Also also also also also.

Because I didn't say it enough last time.

Also, more commas:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 19:18

bmarkey:

I definitely know that my most hated team in hockey, the Dallas Stars, used to be the Minnesota Northstars. But even them I can give a pass because they've been in Dallas for a while. I still hate them, but I'll allow them to exist. But Carolina, Atlanta, Phoenix?? I mean really?

posted by misskaz 24 September | 19:25

And TWO teams in Florida?? WTF?!

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 19:29

Here's a quick rundown of the expansion history of the NHL.

As gawd is my witness, I will turn this into a hockey thread.

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 19:38

jonmc: and don't act like England is some bastion of freedom. They invented imperialism.

The Assyrians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Mongols, the Portuguese, the Spanish and the Dutch all beg to differ.

But yeah, apathy is an odd reason to move to Britain, of all places, considering its long history of not mere indifference to but active mistrust of ideology, intellectualism and idealism. Anyhoo, carry on.

posted by matthewr 24 September | 19:46

Plus, they have no hockey. Although I guess they will, temporarily.

In the meantime, here's some footage of Dion Phaneuf cleaning Denny Hamel's clock.

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 19:52

bmarkey:

Dude. DUDE. That check is nuts.

BTW, you don't realize how important checks are to hockey until you see a game without them. I was visiting my brother in Boston a few years ago and we went to a Bruins game. It was the most boring game I've ever seen. No one checked anyone! I yelled at them from my nose-bleed seats but they didn't listen to me.

posted by misskaz 24 September | 20:07

The issue isn't about language, or adopting local culture and idiosyncrasies. It's about constant self aggrandizing, bragging, attention starved behavior - even if it's attention in the form of pissed off people. Attention is attention in the offender's book.

There are plenty of ex-pats out there, in the UK and elsewhere. The difference between chuckdarwin and, say stavrosthewonderchicken, is that stav doesn't constantly remind us of how shitty and incompetent the country he left is, or that he hates noodles and tiddlywinks, and anyone who likes them is a moron. He doesn't declare his brilliance at learning Asian customs or language.

As far as I'm concerned, the US is actually improved by having one less pompous, pretentious know-it-all, holier than thou with an ego that has its own gravitational pull. Smart, talented & good hearted is more than cancelled out by the former.

posted by chewatadistance 24 September | 20:10

misskaz:
No checking? That's not hockey, that's figure-skating.

Sadly, I've never seen a game live. My lovely partner has agreed to go see the Thunderbirds with me this year, though, so huzzah for Science Girl!

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 20:14

considering its long history of not mere indifference to but active mistrust of ideology, intellectualism and idealism.

That's not unique to the UK, and instead of bemoaning it,one might ask why those things are mistrusted.

The Assyrians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Mongols, the Portuguese, the Spanish and the Dutch all beg to differ.

Sure, but the British raised it to an art form, as the Irish, Jamaicans, East Indians and Americans know.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 20:39

Oh I don't bemoan it, jon. It's why we don't have a bloody revolution every five minutes like the French do. I'm just saying I was a bit confused by chuck moving to Britain to escape apathy - we're pretty damn apathetic about most things ourselves.

posted by matthewr 24 September | 20:53

I'm just saying I was a bit confused by chuck moving to Britain to escape apathy - we're pretty damn apathetic about most things ourselves.

I think there's a certain type of American that believes that Europeans (of whatever class or culture) are by default more enlightened or refined than Americans, which is bizarre.

There was an old saying that if you have a Brooklyn accent, you could be a Nobel laureate, but people would hear your accent and still think you a thug, but a wino with a British accent would be considered dignified and refined. Go figure.

posted by jonmc 24 September | 21:01

Jonathan Cheechoo is the greatest hockey player ever to come out of Moose Factory, Ontario.

Prove me wrong.

posted by bmarkey 24 September | 21:25

"And TWO teams in Florida?? WTF?! "

Snowbirds.

posted by arse_hat 24 September | 23:47

24 September 2007