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MetaChat is an informal place for MeFites to touch base and post, discuss and chatter about topics that may not belong on MetaFilter. Questions? Check the FAQ. Please note: This is important.

14 August 2007

A frustration-vent post. Does anyone else feel as though we need something like MetaTalk?
→[More:]
I mean for talking about stuff that happens here, not there. It doesn't even feel right bringing this up, as the question should itself be in that hypothetical, postulated place and not here. This is a place of sweetness and light, and there are other places for flame wars and so forth. Still, it could get a bit Stepford-like if we don't have somewhere to talk about things. (And I don't mean we should talk about them over there as many of us regard here as "home").

(With apologies to taz for the title, which now seems a bit melodramatic).
post by: GeckoDundee at: 08:45 | 66 comments
Metatalk should be renamed to "Whiner's corner."
posted by craniac 14 August | 08:52
Man, that's a lot of 'here' and 'there' there.

If this is about the deleted post and you saw it, you know why it was deleted. Still, I'm sure one of the mods would be happy to discuss it with you further via email.

If this is not about the deleted post and it's not about something you know is against the general policy of the site ... go ahead and metatalk (the verb not the place) about it. Things seem pretty wide-open here to me.
posted by danostuporstar 14 August | 08:55
Hey, this is about the deleted post, and being so, is about many potential deleted posts; delete this if it offends (remove all trace); I don't want to take it to email because my thoughts are public and inoffensive, and the only thing served by a muzzle is the ears of the muzzler:

I find it strange that a relatively innocuous question about Quonsar, not just not critical of him but, if anything, self-critical, receives such a clamor. I know where the urge to censor this stuff comes from, and it's a good, decent place. However, barring base hypocrisy, I'm sure quonsar would want most any post about him to stand, even one more insulting than this, a mere request for information bent over backwards to be non-confrontational. Many people here share a common interest in Meffy; does it really make sense to quell real discussion by respectful people about a common interest? Or are we just jumping at the chance to moderate?

Thank god I'm not in charge.
posted by Hugh Janus 14 August | 09:00
However, barring base hypocrisy, I'm sure quonsar would want most any post about him to stand

Good point.

(I have have the Stepford worry at times...just haven't been feeling it lately.)
posted by danostuporstar 14 August | 09:03
I didn't see the post, but was it about MetaFilter stuff?

Could you get the response you need by emailing the mods and making your case or lodging your concerns?

posted by Miko 14 August | 09:03
Thanks, dan. Yeah, I can't deny it was "inspired" by the deleted post (though I didn't want to raise that because I didn't want it to become about that). It's something I've been thinking about for a while though and it never seemed the right time to mention it. I could have posted this months ago or months from now. Either way it would capture what I think.

On preview, I really didn't want this to be about a deleted post, but rather about the need (or lack thereof) for somewhere to have these conversations. For the reasons Hugh gives, I thought this time (which had nothing to do with me) was a good occasion to raise the issue without the subject matter complicating things.
posted by GeckoDundee 14 August | 09:08
What clamor? Really, there are very few rules here, so pretty much everything is open to discussion, with the exception of these:

What shouldn't I post?

* Slagging off other users is not cool
* Posts about or links to Metafilter are usually fine unless:
o You want to bring some drama to our attention.
o You want to us to laugh at someone you think is an idiot.
o You feel you've been on the receiving end of some injustice either from Matt or Jess or another user.
o "Wouldn't it be cool if we all went to Mefi and did X?" No. No it wouldn't.
* Don't make posts asking for gifts or contributions. More info here.

which is covered here on the wiki.

Now, your definition of slagging and my definition of slagging could be two different things, but any post that starts off with

"Can someone explain * to me? I'm not against *. I just don't understand * or the "cult" around *. And when I say I don't understand *, I mean that literally. About 2/3rd of *'s comments are gibberish to me."

is just not cool. To me. I closed that thread to new comments, and I deleted it. If taz or seanyboy want to overrule and bring it back, that's fine with me. Whether or not * would find it amusing is immaterial to whether or not it belongs here though.

As far as having a place to talk about deleted threads and stuff, we have it. Here it is. We're talking about it.
posted by iconomy 14 August | 09:15
GeckoDundee: I think given the relative infrequency of the need to have metatalk-like conversations on MeCha (thank dog) that the front page is fine. My take on it is that putting those threads on the front page might inspire people to stop and think a bit before posting dumbass stuff.
posted by gaspode 14 August | 09:16
Deleted post?

Well, now I'm just dying of curiosity. I've tried to attend to the better angels of my nature, but apparently they've stepped out for a drink.

C'mon, guys, dish!
posted by Atom Eyes 14 August | 09:18
Oh, now I get the jist of it. (Thanks iconomy!)

That "question" seems more like a passive-aggressive jab at a user than an honest query to me. Still, I'm sure we would have seen right through that and handled it OK. (It's our collective super power, doncha know?)
posted by Atom Eyes 14 August | 09:27
Agree with ico and gaspode. Occasionally we need a cathartic discussion and referendum on community standards, and this is a good place to happen.

MeCha has a really nice simplicity - one page for everything, with extensions on the wiki for additional background. I'd hate to see that change; I'm already maxing out my internets reading and writing time each day. If there were a MeChaTa too...yeesh!
posted by Miko 14 August | 09:29
MeFi needs MeTa. IMHO we don't. If I had an issue with someone here, I'd e-mail said person, because I think of you all as friends. I don't feel that way about MeFi.

If there was something else I wanted to discuss, not related to a specific person, I'd just slap it on the front page here.
posted by tr33hggr 14 August | 09:30
Honestly? I come here to get away from MeFi and its crotchety culture. Which is not to say I don't enjoy and appreciate it, just that at times the warm, welcoming bosom of MetaChat is much more along the lines of what I need.

I love that we generally got on so well, and I love that we don't gripe very much about one another, and I think it's pretty nifty. I like that we can post little tidbits about ourselves, or interesting things that MeFi would shout down in an instant.

I think that any MetaTalk-ish section here would ruin that vibe. It seems that users here know to take their disagreements to one another, to the mods, or to the grave.

Yeah, I know it seems like I'm painting this place as some sort of paradise on the interweb, but to me it generally is.

When I'm feeling particularly evil, I go to the actual MetaTalk to watch the chaos. But if such chaos broke out over here I'd be very sad.
posted by brina 14 August | 09:32
Atom Eyes, there was a post asking about the "cult" of a certain MeFite. Iconomy quite rightly removed it, as it was AGAINST THE RULES. This reminded me that, in my opinion, Mecha needs a grey area. The subsequent discussion showed me that in fact Mecha needs no such thing and I simply need to learn how to live free.

I really love you guys.

AAARRRGHHGGGH!

That all sounds sarcastic, but it's all true. Please read the above literally.

(So, on preview, what pretty much everyone said as I was typing this).
posted by GeckoDundee 14 August | 09:32
er, have that happen.
posted by Miko 14 August | 09:33
iconomy's selective quote is unfair. It gives the impression that the original post was 'wtf is up with this guy' when it totally wasn't. It was, as far as I can tell, an honest (and, frankly, tortuously apologetic and self-deprecating) attempt to understand the cult of quonsar.

The original poster is also, by common consensus, one of the nicest and most well-intentioned posters on Mefi, so I think it deserves the benefit of the doubt.
posted by matthewr 14 August | 09:35
Oh matthewr, I certainly don't think grumblebee was being an ass with the post. I think it was well-intentioned. It was also against the rules. Because he was posting about quonsar's posts on Mefi.
posted by gaspode 14 August | 09:39
FWIW, I also agree with Hugh and matthewr, but whateva.
posted by tr33hggr 14 August | 09:39
It was an uncharitable reading (and paraphrasing), but the mod's the judge, not me. I'd have to scry pretty hard to find the "slagging" or "laughing at" to which the criteria refer in the deleted post, but my eyes aren't mod's eyes. Neither are my decisions. I'm sure it's for the best. Nail me down softly.
posted by Hugh Janus 14 August | 09:49
So everyone agrees with everyone else?

I don't think what I quoted was unfair - I said that the post started with that comment. It was the first of 4 or 5 paragraphs. And what I don't think is fair is considering who made the post, or how popular or nice they are, when deciding whether or not to delete it. That smacks of favoritism.

And what gaspode said.
posted by iconomy 14 August | 09:50
Oh, so it was that guy. Now it makes sense! That guy could overthink a plate of some kind of food. ;)
posted by Atom Eyes 14 August | 09:50
In my limited involvement in this place, I have seen a few pissing contests, and all of them (in my memory) have been resolved HERE, through a combination of the usually benevolent actions of the mods, and talking it out. Whatever estrangements which have arisen have been dealt with. I am assuming that there is also lots of email/IM'ing when needed. (I have been yelled at a few times in this way.)

In other words, in my view, it's not broken.

And this cult of quonsar which you speak of. Where do I sign up? Is there kool-aid?
posted by danf 14 August | 09:50
But even if the post was respectful, think about where such a discussion would likely lead. It could swiftly get unpretty. But even so, it does go against the guidelines, and that's important. The guidelines keep this place healthy, and prevent it from becoming a back-room bitchfest over what's going on at the other website over yonder.
posted by Miko 14 August | 09:50
The relevant rules, as far as I can tell, are:
* Slagging off other users is not cool
* Posts about or links to Metafilter are usually fine unless:
- You want to bring some drama to our attention.
- You want to us to laugh at someone you think is an idiot.

grumblebee wanted to understand why quonsar has a cult following. When I looked at the thread, there was no drama and more importantly no one was laughing at, or slagging off, quonsar or anyone else.
posted by matthewr 14 August | 09:57
I think the idea is that we're not supposed to use Mecha as a chance to talk about people on Mefi. But of course, people do. I was surprised this post was allowed to stay; I figured it would be deleted, since it's in the same vein of "Look at this on Mefi, isn't this weird". Guess it just flew under the radar. (Not to call out the poster or any of the commenters, of course).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 14 August | 10:10
The trouble I have, and the reason I can't keep as quiet as I want to, is that I don't think the post was in violation of the guidelines. It was explicitly not an attempt to slag quonsar off; it was a request for explanation and understanding in what seemed to me to be respectful and self-deprecating terms. Beyond that, it was about Meffy, and didn't bring up drama, laugh at idiots, complain about moderation, or plan any disruption. I don't think it matters whether the post stood or not. But the reasons for its disappearance are flimsy.

Reading between the lines to find passive agression or sarcasm, projecting future responses into the decision-making process, and presuming the ill-intent and lack of self control of other Mechanisms is a faulty way to decide what stays and goes, one that isn't fair to the poster or the readers, who aren't trusted to make constructive, good faith comments in response to the question. It all seems funny from my eyes, but I have a history of making mountains out of molehills and of writing way out of proportion to my feelings; I think people take this into account, though I don't assume it. My criticism is of a process and not of a person. I mean well.
posted by Hugh Janus 14 August | 10:12
For what it's worth I don't really understand quonsar either. Fish in pants? Huh? I've brought it up in #bunnies. The general response was that there's really nothing to get. He seems funny/nice/etc enough though.

And also, perhaps this can all be resolved with a rephrasing of the deleted post so as to make it kosher with the guidelines? Hugh Janus has made it abundantly clear that he had no ill intentions, so would a new one be allowed to stay if it couldn't be interpreted as "slagging off" by any stretch of the imagination?
posted by CitrusFreak12 14 August | 10:32
Just to reiterate...
If you've got a problem with the site, then it's usually best to directly contact any of the moderators, taz or myself.

It's easy to get wound up about these things. There's always going to be a number of people who either agree or disagree with any moderation, and there's always going to be good reasons for or against that same moderation. The consequence of this is that any time someone posts a thread talking about why {x} was deleted, it all gets a bit ugly.

So, yes - Register any disapproval by email.

Moderation is not an exact science, and it's not 100% rules based, but we do try to be as fair as possible. It's entirely possible that a similar & previous post was not deleted. This is the nature of moderating a site like this.

There's a tendency for people to think that the rules are set in stone & we do get a small number of people using some subset of mathematics or lawyering to prove that they've been punished even after sticking within the letter of the metachat rules. Unfortunately, the social nature of the site means it doesn't work like that. Moderators moderate within a general framework of rules which have varying degrees of non-defined flexibility.

Just know that we try to do our best here. It's not perfect, it's not exact but we do try and do what's best for the site and the community. And we prefer it if you email us when you think we've got it wrong.
posted by seanyboy 14 August | 10:38
Why?

I'm pounding railroad spikes into a festering horse carcass here, but I mean this constructively.

People are good here. Nobody tolerates nastiness or badmouthing, right? We guard against rudeness as a community; why should we take certain discussions to a back-channel? Can't we be trusted?

I want what I say, publicly, to be public. If I go swearing at somebody, I can understand the ax. But stuff like this, a constructive discussion bringing up plenty of good questions, ought to be hidden away? Why?

If the rules aren't set in stone, more's the reason to openly discuss the rules as they are applied and appropriate.

I can't imagine having a decision called politely into question would hurt anyone's ego, or that the answer to that question would compromise anything enough to be private. Forgive me for saying so, but post deletion and "take it to email" sounds like a circling of the wagons. Against whom?
posted by Hugh Janus 14 August | 10:57
Isn't quonsar a mod here anyway? I mean, he used to be, along with amberglow and ico IIRC. Right? Is amberglow still a mod? Isn't arse_hat a mod? Who all is a mod? Are there pictures of the mod squad? Dressed in super 70s finery? If not, why not?
posted by mygothlaundry 14 August | 11:29
If it's any help, I feel the same, Hugh Janus. I've had a few posts deleted for what seemed like not-stepford-enough attitude. Then I go away briefly in disgust but end up back again.
posted by small_ruminant 14 August | 11:39
Just wanted to say that I too support being upfront about this rather than doing it through email. ::goes back to lurking again::
posted by CitrusFreak12 14 August | 12:27
No. Thanks.
posted by eamondaly 14 August | 12:33
I know this thread is not about my post -- it's about a policy matter triggered by my post. I haven't been here long enough to weigh in on the matter, but I'm following this thread with interest.

Just for the record, I'm not upset that my post was deleted. I'm much newer to MetaChat than to MeFi, and I don't know the culture here as well.

More importantly, I have NOTHING against quonsar or any friends of his. I have no reason to dislike him (or to like him, to tell you the truth). Our paths rarely cross. We've never been in an argument. Nor have we been in a substantive discussion.

I totally understand why my post may have come off as passive-aggressive. But it was really just inquisitive. I'm not sure how one asks such a question without sounding passive-aggressive (even if one isn't). Maybe is the answer is "you can't." But I hope those of you who know me from MeFi and from offline will recognize that I'm not a vindictive person. I'm just the nerdy, socially-awkward guy who sometimes asks the fat lady when she's expecting.

My apologies.
posted by grumblebee 14 August | 13:49
Oh, one thing on topic: I do think it would be cool if MetaChat had the same policy as MeFi about emailing people when their posts are deleted. It's a bit jarring to find your post just ... gone. You wonder if it's a technical difficulty or if your screwed up. I figured I probably screwed up, but the question did nag at me a little.
posted by grumblebee 14 August | 13:53
Cult personalities are best understood by either reading their past histories on the site or sites they frequent OR emailing a regular on said site or sites and asking.

The first method is probably superior as the phenomenon of the cult personality is like performance art: It means what you think it means.

As for the personality in question, just like any great artist he has had his different periods. Picassoeque, even. With fish.
posted by bunnyfire 14 August | 13:55
And grumblebee?

I'M NOT PREGNANT.

(just fluffy.)
posted by bunnyfire 14 August | 13:57
Agree with grumblebee- if a post is deleted, the poster should definitely get an e-mail.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 14 August | 14:13
grumblebee, I apologize for not emailing you. I left a comment at the end of the thread, and assumed you would see it because you were following the thread closely at that point. I left the comment there with new comments closed for about 20 minutes and then I magically invisiballized the thread.

I take exception to the comment that I'm presuming the ill-intent and lack of self control of others here (really, that's insulting). No. I also take exception to this: "Or are we just jumping at the chance to moderate?"

I've deleted a grand total of 4 posts in the 2 years or so that I've been a mod. Yes, I just go crazy looking for things to delete here and various ways in which I can exercise my impressive mod muscle.

I emailed back and forth with taz for guidance about determining what and what not to delete some time last year, after I mistakenly decided not to delete a somewhat suspect post that turned ugly here. She told me to go with my first instinct (to not overthink the plate of beans, as it were). So that's what I did with this. I didn't read any of the comments, only the initial post.

On a side note, I still remember the very first post I deleted because I was really scared to hit the button... heh. Miko had made a comment about the gentrification of her neighborhood, and how a hangout that she liked was being turned into an Irish-Asian fusion restaurant. A couple of months later the owner of the fusion restaurant somehow got wind of her comment, came here and registered just to rant and bitch at her.
posted by iconomy 14 August | 14:16
Irish-Asian fusion? Oh, wow.
posted by box 14 August | 14:21
What is that? Like, potato sushi? Because honestly, that sounds good to me.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 14 August | 14:23
Since I was the one who commented "Take it to Meta" in the deleted thread, I want to chime in too...

1) My "take it to meta" comment was a bit snarky, but not intended to be mean or rude. Before the thread was deleted I tried to convey that to grumblebee by stating that it was my understanding that a question like his was against the guidelines because the question was about q's so-called cult on Metafilter, not MetaChat. Being afraid of the treatment one might get in MetaTalk is not a good enough reason to bring it to MetaChat. I too am too thin-skinned to post to The Grey, and I barely post to The Blue because I am not up for the hassles involved.

2) IMO, MetaChat does not need a separate place to hammer out policy, ridicule, etc. I personally LOVE that Metachat is not like MetaFilter.

3) I agree that it would be nice if the person who posts a deleted thread was notified by email as to why their post was deleted.

Metachat has amazing mods and a fantastic wiki. One of the reason MetaFilter needs a place like The Grey because the wiki blows (no offense Matt, Jess, et al).

Lastly, I agree that grumblebee is aces and want to repeat that my comments in no way should be interpreted as slagging grumblebee.

I have to go pick up vegetables from our CSA, so I'm outtie for a while.
posted by terrapin 14 August | 14:33
Sure, potato sushi sounds good, but what about General Tso's Corned Beef and Cabbage?
posted by box 14 August | 14:36
I have yet to be on an online community (including my PDX BBS days) where user-boundary-pushing and moderator-response didn't create a feedback loop that eventually made the community untenable. Laissez faire seems the most intellectually honest, if unpalatable to weak stomachs, but democratic moderation tends to be the most sustainable for growth. Meta* sites tend to avoid the moderator-user feedback loop by creating artificial barriers to growth.

I know everyone here feels that it's one big happy family, and I do believe that you do try to be welcoming and sincere to everyone who posts, but the lack of any structure for individual expression (including frustration and derails/sidebars) and the nigh unwritten (yes, there are some written rules, but they're vague and hard to find) rules of conduct really does make the place feel clique-ish. I really only recognize the user names of people I've met and I pretty much feel like a gadfly because I post long, pedantic posts like this one that don't fit the whole shiny, happy MeCha vibe.

That is to say, on the surface MeCha seems to claim to be a place to chat about all things that don't belong on MeFi, but culturally and mod-wise, it really only exists to serve a very specific, but unstated subset of those topics. (CuteFilter, ComfortFilter, WorkSucksFilter, ImBoredFilter, InternetMemeFilter, NewsOfTheWeirdFilter and a few others...)

Metafilter suffers a lot of this also. I think it's the whole linear nature of the blog. No nesting. Limited profiles. No diaries. There's some parallel structure (MeTa, AskMe, Projects... Unofficially MeCha), but limited depth. I feel like this is a figurative and literal limitation. As in, the literal shallow depth of the link tree on MeFi affects the ability to delve into topics. Then this feeds into the whole anti-derail culture.

The basic problem is that human interaction always has a dark side. When you create a community, you can either hide it or recognize/address it.

But don't mind me, I'm just bitching because I want a Meta* diary ghetto.
posted by Skwirl 14 August | 14:47
I agree with everything Skwirl said.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 14 August | 15:03
me, too.
posted by small_ruminant 14 August | 15:06
*sigh*

Now I feel all stepford-y because I've never had a post or comment deleted.
posted by gaspode 14 August | 15:10
I take exception to the comment that I'm presuming the ill-intent and lack of self control of others here (really, that's insulting).

And there's the proof. All my attempts to ask open, non-insulting questions are ignored, and the most nearly insulting bits are plucked out to make a case against me. What's insulting, again?

No. I also take exception to this: "Or are we just jumping at the chance to moderate?"

The "we" I referred to when I said that was "we, the community," in response to something I think dano said. You hadn't shown up to the thread in question yet. Take all the exception you want. There's a vast gulf between my intent and your perception of it.

This is why folks don't indulge in criticism of the way things are here: someone who decides how those things are might come along and tell them to shut up, or take offense, or otherwise fuel their own little fire with something we thought was safer than kiddy pajamas.

Seriously, if you read carefully you'll see I'm asking questions, not leveling accusations, and trying to broach sensitive topics in an open way. Of course, by past performance you'll be insulted by the insinuation that you aren't reading carefully. I don't mean it that way; you're insulted, you insult me, I'm insulted, I insult you, maybe we can sing it as a round.

Seriously, I don't mean you're a bad mod, honestly, but mods have their decisions questioned sometimes. Don't be offended, it's not about you. It's patronizing, at this point, to say I like you and your contributions, and I think you're a good mod, and I didn't even know you were the one deleting the post. Sorry, those things are all true.

Baltimore Mayor William Donald Schaefer, once he became governor of Maryland, received letters of complaint while he was in office. He would hop in his state limo and visit the complainants, knocking on their doors and yelling about what a stupid constituent they were. I thought it was funny, but then, I was a teenager at the time, and I knew it was funny because it was a big mistake. I still think it was funny, and I still think it was a big mistake.
posted by Hugh Janus 14 August | 15:13
Metachat has amazing mods and a fantastic wiki. One of the reason MetaFilter needs a place like The Grey because the wiki blows (no offense Matt, Jess, et al).

MeFi has the grey because it has 100x as many users and a different set of policies, not because we have a bad wiki.

The MeFi wiki isn't official, and isn't supposed to stand in for site moderation or community discussion about policy. MeTa exists for MetaFilter by design. If MeCha is set up not to have a similar side site that's just a different design, not a failure of the set-up in either case.

I was just considering coming back over here and saying hello to everybunny again and this seemed as good a thread as any. Hi!
posted by jessamyn 14 August | 15:24
A problem this community will constantly run into is that Metachat is both very closely tied to another community (so much so that one wouldn't be crazy to think the two were officially connected), and at the same time is run in a completly different manner (and by mods who, IMO, are less visible than those on Metafilter- I'm honestly not sure I could name everyone who is involved in running this site). If this site never has a MechaTalk section, that's the choice of whoever is in charge, but I don't know that we're ever going to completely escape the idea.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 14 August | 15:27
Update: That Irish-Asian fusion restaurant actually did close - lack of business. The new owner refurbished the space as an upscaled, nice version of an Irish pub, with great artwork by a local painter and some stained glass, and left the upstairs to be the dark, green-painted, smoky oasis of Guinness the locals love. It's a win-win. Great bangers and mash, no potato sushi.
posted by Miko 14 August | 15:29
Tremendous amounts of sympathy for ico, seanyboy, et al. Hi!
posted by cortex 14 August | 15:30
I am so glad you're popping in, Jessamyn. I think the guidelines and moderation here are definitely improving the MeFi/MeCha interface.

I don't have much problem with the moderating here, or at MeFi, for that matter. I guess my take on it is that these are websites - they're privately run, and though they may not always be run exactly to my liking, it's rather amazing that they exist at all. The mods could just as easily say "This is a giant pain in the ass; I'm out."

Instead they go to the trouble of taking action, now and then, to preserve the best qualities of the community discussion. I don't see it as a problem. We're all here voluntarily; it's not public property and the First Amendment doesn't apply. It's nice that we are able and willing to speak about how we think things should be, but ultimately, site control isn't in the hands of the people, and if it were, it probably wouldn't be very good.
posted by Miko 14 August | 15:37
I was just considering coming back over here and saying hello to everybunny again and this seemed as good a thread as any. Hi!

Hi Jessamyn!

Please note I said "one" of the reasons. Many Meta threads are started because a user either can't find the wiki or are unsure about it.
posted by terrapin 14 August | 15:43
(hi Jessamyn!)

Yeah, I came in to post pretty much exactly what you just wrote, Miko. Oh yeah, and not knowing the mods? There's a little "about" link right there in the left sidebar.
posted by gaspode 14 August | 15:43
Hi Jessamyn.

No worries about the email thing, iconomy. It just so happened that during that 20-minute period, I was on the subway. But it's no biggie.

Being afraid of the treatment one might get in MetaTalk is not a good enough reason to bring it to MetaChat. I too am too thin-skinned to post to The Grey

Sorry, I was unclear. I CAN be thin skinned, but that's not while I was "afraid" to post to MetaTalk. I didn't want to post there, because I thought my post would be misunderstood there and rather than getting an answer to my question, I'd get a bunch of jokes and a flame war. As this site is more removed, I thought I'd have a better chance of serious discussion here.

In retrospect, it was probably a bad question (e.g. too primed for misunderstandings) for either site.
posted by grumblebee 14 August | 15:56
I don't think we need a MeChaTa; the front page is a good place to discuss (potentially touchy) things. Like this thread, for example.

I think an email sent to a poster whose thread gets deleted is a good idea. If a user has a problem with the deletion, I think contacting a mod is better than posting "Why did my thread get deleted?" to the front page.

Also:

but the lack of any structure for individual expression (including frustration and derails/sidebars) and the nigh unwritten (yes, there are some written rules, but they're vague and hard to find) rules of conduct really does make the place feel clique-ish.

I'm curious. For skwirl and those that agree with him, what are you looking for here? What would structure for individual expression look like?

On preview: we've had a nice discussion about the deleted thread here, and grumblebee's comment indicates to me that the mods did right in deleting it.

posted by Specklet 14 August | 16:22
MetaTalk: not because we have a bad wiki.
Come back, jessamyn!

the most nearly insulting bits are plucked out to make a case against me.

Or, to give her perspective in the discussion, and not actually about you at all. Free the perspectives, man.

I can exercise my impressive mod muscle.

How's your son's mod muscle coming along btw?
posted by danostuporstar 14 August | 16:36
Hugh - The reason I ignored your comment was because ...
a) I like to think about complicated things before I say anything too stupid.
b) I was in the pub winning the pub quiz.

And if you're curious, Jane was Miss Marples first name. Not June.
posted by seanyboy 14 August | 19:05
If this were MeFi, this is the point in the thread where someone posts a captioned picture. Or would have at one time or other.

Err, um, just saying hello!

kthxbye
posted by mischief 14 August | 19:15
I'm curious. For skwirl and those that agree with him, what are you looking for here? What would structure for individual expression look like?

I CAN HAS DIARY GHETTO?!

Other than that, I don't know other than to say, I feel a little off posting the minutae of my life and my various brain farts and rants on any FPP based board. There's nowhere in MetaLand to say, "I know this is incredibly asinine, so only read it if you have nothing better to do... but if that's the case, can I bounce this idea off of you?" Of course, this was debatably the beginning of the downfall of K5. HuSi kinda wimpers along.

Everything Meta* is so high stakes and formal. Like, uh, where do I make a Back Page Post?
posted by Skwirl 14 August | 20:45
A blog?
posted by Miko 14 August | 20:55
Does anyone else feel as though we need something like MetaTalk? Hell NO!

And yes I am a mod. (I am on the road and not with my laptop so I have not been here for 8 days). All of the posts I have deleted have fallen into two categories. About 20% are "hell I'm drunk and I shouda never done made that post can u delete it for me?" and the rest were metafilter/metafilter user related slags. I drop the poster an e-mail and no one has ever had an issue with it.

ymmv
posted by arse_hat 14 August | 23:54
I just want to say that I'm ready and willing to have sex with any of the mods at any time, because I love them that muchly. I respect them in that I-respect-you-and-I'd-totally-do-you sort of way.

And trust me, I'm picky.
posted by mudpuppie 15 August | 00:00
nice timestamp, mudpuppie
posted by terrapin 15 August | 06:29
Now I feel all stepford-y because I've never had a post or comment deleted.
Just say the word, gaspode and it will be done.

There have been a couple or three threads here lately that I have considered deleting because they are solely about something on MeFi. I have generally erred on the side of leave it alone and see what happens and, in the case of the one linked above, commented myself in the thread to the detriment of my post-comment judgement, because I was in the mood to slap anyone stupid who crossed my path and the topic struck a nerve in me. Being human sucks sometimes.

Moderation of a site like this is an art rather than a science and those who prune active discussions will always be criticised by some. While I didn't see the thread (stupid public holidays interfering with my MeCha habit), it sounds like the sort of thing that I would have deleted, too. It sounds like exactly the sort of thing that belongs on MeTa, to me. While this site sorta kinda has a connection with MeFi, it's definitely not part of the MetaFilter Network and I certainly don't want it to end up that way.

We most definitely not need our own MetaTalk, if only because we are not big enough to warrant it and because the vibe is much looser here (by design, in case you weren't aware of that). Don't get me wrong, I love MeTa and it is where I spend most of my MeFi time, but the last thing we need is more of that.

As far as taking things to e-mail is concerned, I would like to think that any member here is welcome to air their concerns publicly as GeckoDundee has here. I am all about transparency of administration/moderation and having secret conversations about things that concern everyone doesn't facilitate that at all. Don't worry, I'll still keep all your "hope me, I fucked up my thread" e-mails secret, but keep bringing larger issues here where we can all have a say. This is not just a Web page, after all - it's a community.

Now that my curiosity has got the better of me - I definitely would have deleted it. Take it to MeTa, indeed.
posted by dg 16 August | 02:24
← I'm jonesin' for an Emcee update || Happy birthday dg and Orange Swan! →

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