MetaChat - Smart People:

No, I've always wished I were a lot smarter. I can't retain anything, which makes me seem like a real airhead sometimes. That might not translate well online but in real life when I'm having a conversation or a debate about something, I often can't remember what my point is or what I was trying to say. So I would like to be smarter and to also have better retention skills. I can read a book and totally absorb it and understand the themes and whatnots, and then a week later not be able to explain what it was about or offer a coherent review. I know it in my head but I can't articulate it. I too zone out while thinking.

For what it's worth, my IQ is 147. I don't really think it means jack squat diddly, though.

Uh, what was I saying?

posted by iconomy 10 April | 11:00

oh crap, it's reflection day, isn't it?

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 11:00

Yes. Or maybe I just wish I had lower expectations about myself and others in general so as to avoid disappointment.

posted by phoenixc 10 April | 11:01

I'm too smart to take an IQ test...

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 11:01

iconomy, it feels like I could have written exactly that. My big thing is that I sidetrack myself all the time. Even my writing is parenthetical. Too many ideas so that I lose my initial point. And by the time I come around, yep, I've forgotten it.

posted by gaspode 10 April | 11:02

No. I wish I was so smart I could build a robot that would kick the shit out of everyone though.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 11:03

read a book on an esoteric topic-to a point. Then things get too complex and my eyes glaze over and my head starts spinning and I give right up

I could have written that.

posted by getoffmylawn 10 April | 11:03

Heh.
Too many ideas so that I lose my initial point. And by the time I come around, yep, I've forgotten it.
I could have written that too!

posted by getoffmylawn 10 April | 11:05

Sometimes. I was the "gifted" kid in a small, rural school system, and I think that wired some expectations into me that were pretty much impossible in a wider world full of people. And god knows I have a tendancy to overthink things, or to make things needlessly difficult and complicated, and so on.

But on the other hand, I like who I am, and there's lots of upside to having all of this weird shit going on in my head. It'd be nice to reallocate some brain usage (all of the space that got devoted to categorizing pop-culture references in my early 20s probably could've been put to better use), but overall it's still the basic drive to ACHIEVE! that gets me up in the morning to draw, or makes me think that I really should put more effort into my guitar parts for my band, and so on.

This reminds me of a guy I knew briefly in college, who gave a friend of mine a lecture along the lines of "you'll never know what it's like to be as smart as I am, you'll never have to deal with these traps I fall into." The guy in question then flunked out because he spent all of his waking hours playing Wizardry on a Mac Classic.

posted by cobra! 10 April | 11:05

Ever since I was young, I've been a "fast" thinker. I read fast, I take tests fast, I process things quickly. Teachers didn't understand that. Classmates got jealous. So now I just keep my smartness to myself. Nobody likes a know-it-all.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 10 April | 11:06

No.

posted by rainbaby 10 April | 11:07

Imagine being satisfied by the media offerings of the mainstream! No feeling of discomfort and the ebbing away of humanity as you stare into the bright world of TV land, with a side order of terror that actually convinces you of the need to buy some shiny doo-dad or sugary confection offered in the advertising break.
Best-seller books are a good read, simply due to the virtue of selling by the shelf-load.
Pop music is a good representation of the talent available in the music world.
The lies, fabrications and machiavellian machinations of propaganda merchants are a service to the confused consumer.

*Stepford*

Is ignorance bliss, or a place where complixity and nuance whither due to lack of sustainance? A less colourful place?

posted by asok 10 April | 11:07

ico, when I worked in a computer store in Florida, we had a Down Syndrome kid who used to come in a couple times a week and do custodial work. This is gonna make me sound insane, but I used to kind of envy him. I'd read something in the paper or hear somebody's opinion on something and wind up considering every side of every issue until I was thoroughly confused and frazzled, whereas I imagined he saw things much more simply, which must've been nice. Of course, I'm probably completely wrong about what it was like to be him.

I could have written that.

But then you got distracted and forgot to. (I'm only half-kidding. sometimes my head is like a TV where the channel keeps changing whether I want it to or not.)

cobra: I was in the high classes in English but in other subjects I was in the middle of the curve or below. I remember that my honors English class met right before my moron geography class. It was like going from Paper Chase meets Dead Poets Society ro Beavis & Butthead meets feeding time at the monkry cage. Maybe that wasa lucky gift in a way in that I kind of have more sympathy for the thuds in that class since I was kind of one of them in some ways.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 11:10

How smart are you?
I got a 9 because I got the pill question wrong.

posted by getoffmylawn 10 April | 11:12

If ignorance is bliss, I ought to be ecstatic.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 11:16

Smarter would be nice, but more focused would be even nicer.

posted by doctor_negative 10 April | 11:18

I will admit that I am smart, but not as smart as most people think I am. This leads to some very awkward situations. For example: I was recently in a play. One of my fellow cast members asked me what I did for a living. I told her (I'm an engineer), and she replied with, "Wow, so you're really smart, aren't you?" She's a Harvard Law student! It didn't help that I was flying through the sudoku book that I had on hand.

All my life I've been known for being the smart kid (and sometimes as the smartass). It can be incredibly alienating when that's the only thing about you people focus on.

To answer your question, then, there have been days that I've wished to be less smart, if only just to "fit in" and be able to interact with more people. There are also days, however, when I've wanted to be much smarter in order to decipher certain problems I've been working on.

posted by backseatpilot 10 April | 11:23

I know I'm bright, but I also know I'm not an intellectual. I've never read most of what are considered to be 'the classics' (Dickens, Jane Austen, Shakespeare, except when forced to at school). I can do sums but I have no brain for strategy - for example, when I play Bejewelled (see, that proves I'm not intellectual), I can't see how moves will pan out if I move a particular jewel - i.e. if I move the purple jewel, will that cause the ones above to cascade or not. I just can't work it out by looking at the board and so I have to make the move to find out. My lack of understanding of strategy means I can't play chess and I don't understand what Sudoku is either.

But I'm quick-witted, cunning, tenacious and sharp. I was a killer divorce lawyer for those very reasons.

posted by essexjan 10 April | 11:25

I know I'm bright,

Bingo. There's a difference between being bright and brilliant, between being able to do a few intellectual parlor tricks and having a truly capable mind. I have quite a few friends who are actually brilliant (and to their credit, less lazy and addled than me) who when they get going make me feel like a dolt (through no fault of their own). It's this weird invisible, intangible barrier.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 11:33

When I was in first grade, my parents would call me a genius. The thing was several of the kids in my small class were as smart as me, if not smarter. When I hit High School, I realized I had been coasting on my easy ability to remember things, and that there were many many people far more intelligent than me.

Now I try to get by on cleverness, but the internet is proof that there are many more clever than me.

posted by drezdn 10 April | 11:37

My mom used to say I was smart, but had no common sense.

posted by getoffmylawn 10 April | 11:40

There are plenty of theoretically brilliant people who will accomplish relatively "nothing" in their lives, so really it's a fairly pointless metric in the context of "success". Most people I know who are motivated and flexible are more financially and creatively empowered than the "Voted most likely to succeed" crowd.

If you want to blame something for our failures I'd point a finger at the coddling and plodding educational environment of our Western culture - and even that would be a classic recursive feedback loop. There is no culprit for our failures larger than our lack of motivation to expand our ever narrowing frame of reference and technical skill set.

posted by appidydafoo 10 April | 11:40

There is no culprit for our failures larger than our lack of motivation to expand our ever narrowing frame of reference and technical skill set.

apiddydafoo: as I read your comment, iTunes cued up Nashville Pussy's 'Lazy White Boy,' which includes a few immortal couplets:

'I got a future/can't wait to blow it...'
'a bag of weed, a six pack of Bud/I'm like a pig in a lotta mud..'

Maybe lack of motivation is a wisdom of sorts, I don't know.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 11:51

Their answer to the pill question was nonsense, getoffmylawn. Give yourself full marks.

posted by matthewr 10 April | 11:55

I've solved that pesky extra brain cell problem by the judicious application of varied chemicals. Hey, presto, I'm not so smart anymore!

Actually I think being "smart" or a "genius" as I was always labelled was pretty much bad for me. I coasted on that and a knack for perfect recall/eidetic imagery (that really is gone, sigh) all the way through school and as a result I've really never learned to apply myself. I don't have much drive either and I always assume that I can catch up at the last minute - you know, hey, I aced a French IV exam after staying up all night doing speed without even studying one little bit! I wrote an award winning paper in 6 hours of madness! Not so good in the long run.

Sometimes I can still get away with it but it's increasingly more difficult and I need to learn how to prepare and be more proactive.

posted by mygothlaundry 10 April | 12:00

I'm very smart but not brilliant like some I know. I can't really follow high-level theory-academics. I've tried teaching and have dabbled in academics, but I'm just not good at it.

Maybe it's just what I'm used to, but I like this level. I'm brainy but not so up-there that I can't relate people. Also, I'm lucky to work with many very smart lawyers and I can feel like one of the gang (and not freak-ish).

posted by Claudia_SF 10 April | 12:02

Their answer to the pill question was nonsense, getoffmylawn. Give yourself full marks.

It was right. If you take the first pill as soon as you get them, you then have to wait thirty minutes to take the second pill, and another thirty minutes to take the third, for a total of sixty minutes before you finish the pills.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 12:02

I could have written all of this, only I'm not smart enough.

All kidding aside, I like being smart, and wish I were smarter (my experience is similar to jonmc's). I don't think the people I know who I consider, well, dumb go through life any happier than I do. I think they feel pressures, and anger, and disappointment and all that stuff.

posted by JanetLand 10 April | 12:25

There's no single scale for intelligence. The brain can accomplish a variety of tasks and most of ours are optimized to do at least something incredibly well. When I am in one of my strong areas, peoples' jaws drop and they stare and point, mumbling "how... genius..." And then I'm back to forgetting where I put my keys and showing up for meetings on the wrong day.

posted by scarabic 10 April | 12:25

I don't think the people I know who I consider, well, dumb go through life any happier than I do. I think they feel pressures, and anger, and disappointment and all that stuff.

Probably true. Although one big gift I've gotten is that I have learned that brains aren't everything. I've known smart people who were utter assholes and not-too-swift people who were fine human beings.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 12:28

yeah, but it says "How many minutes would the pills last?" which implied to me the effect of them. But then again, I'm "smart". Or is that "dumb"? I guess I was thinking too much, which was dumb of me. Or smart.
I thought the California widow one was poorly worded. I knew the guy was dead, but what do I know of the legal system in Cali? Seems to me if any state would let you marry a dead guy, it'd be California.

FWIW, I don't wish I were smarter. I just deal with what brains I have. And moreso, deal with the ego that too often blocks it from working as it should.

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 12:34

I wish I were smart enough to figure out what my strengths really are so I can focus on developing those, or learning to use them better. As it is, I'm only smart enough to have figured out all the tests (MBTI, etc.) that are supposed to identify your thinking patterns and all that, so I think my results are skewed toward the sort of person I want to be instead of what I really am. If that makes sense.

In grade school I was considered smart in the "knows all the answers" way, and I didn't like that it was all people saw about me, so I tried to play down the smarts, and now I wish I hadn't.

posted by casarkos 10 April | 12:38

I'm smart. I like being smart. I don't think I've ever wished to be less smart. I often wish that more people in general were smarter -- that is, I don't want to decrease my own intelligence, but I wouldn't mind increasing the general level of intelligence in society, which I guess would make me less smart in a relative sort of way.

None of this means that I don't occasionally do dumb things, though.

I was wondering the other day about intelligence and career happiness, though. I'm all excited about changing careers, and I can't help wonder if some of that's not just because I get bored too easily once I realize that I've more or less mastered whatever the job description is. Then it stops being an intellectual challenge, and I start itching to do something else.

Which isn't horrible, and I suppose that if I had been in a more promotion-driven field, it might have been ok. But it made me start worrying about what I'd have to do in another seven years to up the intellectual ante, and I did think it might be nicer in many ways to be less worried about seeking out that sort of challenge.

posted by occhiblu 10 April | 12:40

I'm smart. I like being smart.

Yeah, but you're a whole different league of smart from somebody like me. I don't know if you've ever known what it's like to listen to (or on the internet, read) and comprehend next to nothing about it and have you're mind sort of fog over. I guess I wish (sometimes) that I was just dumb enough not to let that bother me.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 12:44

Why wouldn't you wish you were smarter, so that you comprehended more?

I don't mean that to be glib or snide; I'm serious. It seems odd to me that one would wish most often (?) for less intelligence, rather than more.

Though I guess people who wish for less intelligence are actually at least making the statement that they have more than average intelligence, that they're too smart. Which I think is probably a good formulation, at least in terms of self esteem!

posted by occhiblu 10 April | 13:01

I was misdiagnosed as smart at an early age, and thereafter had many misadventures trying to find exactly the right medication to counteract it. This also afforded me many opportunities to spend quality time observing genuine, off-the-charts geniuses. Some of them were ambitious, some of them weren't; some were stereotypically socially challenged, some were maddeningly perfect in every outward respect; but in reality, they were all just human, with all the possible variation of human foibles that implies. On average, I wouldn't say they were any angstier than the blue collar types I hung out with when I dropped out. I have to admit there are days I wish I was simple enough not to care about anything, but that's also my biggest fear, so I guess that's a wash.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 13:03

Why wouldn't you wish you were smarter, so that you comprehended more?

Because if I was just a notch or two less smart, I wouldn't even know how smart I'm not, thus leading to less frustration, if that makes any sense.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 13:11

Why wouldn't you wish you were smarter?

Because wishing for things doesn't do anything.

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 13:12

I have wished, at various times, that I was simpler in my needs and desires as I figured that this was the key to happiness. In reality, the key to happiness was along a different path. Smartness was really the key to rising above misery that I thought smartness was creating.

Jonmc - with regards to people with Down syndrome - it's not as simple as you perceived, only because the capacity of the population has a lot of variation, although the average is certainly lower. It's also the case that depression, loneliness, and other maladies are present in that population as well.

I went to a conference a few years ago that featured a father and son talking about a fight he had to have with the school district with regards to equal education. Among other things, he presented two letters - one that was forwarded through district email and his response. The district letter was a steaming pile of platitudes and nonsense that presented the mentally challenged in a sweet, but utterly demeaning light. He shot it to pieces, asserting that the perpetuation of attitudes like this is one of reasons why there was no expectation that his son had the right to a public education in same classes as his peers.

Don't take this personally, Jon, I doubt you were aware that this is a hot topic for me, but I also take it as a goal to try to prevent the perpetuation of these stereotypes where I can.

posted by plinth 10 April | 13:15

(oh, and just to be perfectly clear, my daughter has Down syndrome, and I'm also willing to answer any questions WRT Ds that I can)

posted by plinth 10 April | 13:16

plinth: no offense taken. even as I was having those thoughts way back when, I realized deep down that they were probably inaccurate.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 13:18

I like being able to keep myself busy and engaged when I'm stuck on a long bus-ride, by retreating into my head. I think I'm witty, and have a good creative bent, and I'm a pretty smart person by general account, but I never did the IQ test thing and I'm not sure I'd want to.

I find the word a confusing and bewildering place when I can't figure out what's up—if being less smart would exacerbate that, no thanks.

As far as smartness correlating to perception of smartness: I've known very happy not-so-smart people as well as very bitter, ripped-off-feeling folks in the same basket. Angry, self-loathing people come in all stripes, and the creeping, constant suspicion that you're not as bright as the folks around you, or even just not as bright as you're supposed to be, isn't an alien notion.

I haven't spent a lot of time working with genuinely mentally challenged people, but they don't strike me as blithely unaware of the situation. There may be some threshold of blanket uncomprehension of the distinction, but I think it's a lot lower than you're supposing, jonmc.

posted by cortex 10 April | 13:22

My IQ fuels my arrogance and my anger and the burning resentment I still feel for people that I should love. Sadly that's all I have to keep me going. If I could drop 20 or 30 points and become one of those happy well adjusted people I occasionally see going into Gap stores or drinking shitty coffee with an over spec'd laptop at Starbucks, well it'd be a no brainer.

posted by econous 10 April | 13:25

I think being able to follow academic/esoteric debates & discussions is a poor indicator of intelligence. By definition, academic & esoteric pursuits require significant apprenticeship and mastery of technical vocabularies to reach a level of basic fluency and competence. For example, philosophers are notorious for using a common word in extremely idiosyncratic ways. But it's even true in non-academic/esoteric arenas -- sports, for example, like football (American). This seems like the most complicated and incomprehensible amalgamation of rules that I've ever come across. Hyper-obtuse perl code seems less intimidating to me. The average Joe's who talk about football games around the office watercooler seem, to me, like they're speaking a foreign language and, while I can follow to a limited degree, I can only keep up for so long. They're using a technical language I've never been introduced to, and have never attempted to teach myself (because I have no interest).

I guess my point in this long ramble is that what comes across as "smart" is sometimes just as much a matter of training as it is genuine "smarts".

posted by treepour 10 April | 13:28

I like being able to keep myself busy and engaged when I'm stuck on a long bus-ride, by retreating into my head.

This is interesting. Yesterday, me and pips were listening to some mp3's together and she was remarking of certain songs that (I'm paraphrasing) she'd like them if she was at a party or on a bar jukebox or dancing somewhere, but that she wouldn't put them on her iPod to listen to alone. I said that I never felt that since my brain could manufacture the context inside my head even if I was sitting all alone at home.

(and FWIW, cortex, you're one of the people who's wit rather consistently humbles me)

and like I said, I realized that my ideas about mentally disabled people were unfounded even as I had them. It was more an idea that seeing the world in more...simple terms might lead to less mental torment.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 13:31

I just wish I had an imagination. I don't retreat into my head well at all.

posted by small_ruminant 10 April | 13:35

I'm a big sucker for these kinds of themes in art and literature and whatnot. Flowers for Algernon, or that Simpsons episode with the crayon in Homer's nose? I love that kind of thing.

posted by box 10 April | 13:37

I think I'm smart enough (my IQ indicates that I am, whatever that's worth). I just wish I had the ambition to do something with it.

posted by deborah 10 April | 13:38

or that Simpsons episode with the crayon in Homer's nose?

I was actually thinking of that episode as I read this thread. Dumb Homer's biggest strength as a human being (and his greatest joy) was his ability to be relatively content in the company of the Lenny and Carl's of the world and when he became smart he lost all that, which is kind of what drove his decision to have the crayon put back in.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 13:40

Ultimately, I believe that mental self-torment is a choice and is independent of intellect, but dependent upon your ability to see things for what they are.

posted by plinth 10 April | 13:40

I don't retreat into my head well at all.

Hee, this reminds me of a time when my ex and I were hanging out, and I guess I was staring into space. He gave me a weird look, then said, "You know, I sometimes don't understand why you're so quiet, then I remember, 'She's smart. She must be thinking.'"

I'm not sure his analysis was correct, but the entire thing makes me laugh when I think about it.

posted by occhiblu 10 April | 13:46

I've known smart people who were utter assholes and not-too-swift people who were fine human beings.

I'm in a shitty mood at the moment, so my first thought on reading that was "I would trade every last drop of niceness in my body for 30 more IQ points." But that was just a passing thing, I think. Still, I would much rather be smarter enough to actually do something with my intelligence, than dumber enough not to care. And I still think it's possible to get smarter in a healthy way, whereas all the dumbing down things I can think of require extreme physical, spychological, or possibly even spiritual injury.

posted by Lentrohamsanin 10 April | 14:04

I once read that having an IQ in the 120's is basically being just smart enough to know how smart you're not.

I think that's a quote of Asimov's, but I'm not sure. I tested at 137 in high school, and I can confirm that it's the same thing in the 130s. ;-)

For instance, I can usually follow an intellectual conversation or read a book on an esoteric topic-to a point. Then things get too complex and my eyes glaze over and my head starts spinning and I give right up.

Jon, very seriously, this is not a function of IQ. This is a function of preparation, context, and personal value. My grandfather was a math professor, and really hoped I would be good at math (especially since he only had two real potentials among his grandkids), and I got as far as first semester calculus and quit. It wasn't that I couldn't learn it -- I knew I could, still do, still wish I had -- but that I had other interests by then.

(In fact, one of my Indian math professors, who had an accent as thick as the Ganges River on a smelly day, tried to get me to solve a semi-famous unsolved math problem. I did work on it a bit but never really got anywhere except to, yes, know how much I needed to learn yet.)

In terms of (say) literary/critical theory, when I was deep into that stuff in college -- Derrida, Foucault, Hegel, etc. -- I could run rings around most of my classmates. Today, it's been years since I've done anything more than cursorily follow what's going on in that field, so I'm very rusty and I don't have the interest to delve into it much.

So being lost in an unfamiliar topic is really not a matter of IQ (which doesn't measure that sort of thing, anyway -- it's more of a measure of computing power than anything). I knew there were "smarter" people than I but I was the one who was fascinated with the material; and now I know that there are dumber people than I who have more preparation with it, so being smarter means jack squat.

The "giving right up", though, that's more of a function of stuff like perfectionism in your personality. "If I can't be at the best level there's no point trying". Again, you can have a high IQ but personality doobobs can prevent you from exploiting it.

That's my take, anyway.

posted by stilicho 10 April | 14:05

Hee, this reminds me of a time when my ex and I were hanging out, and I guess I was staring into space. He gave me a weird look, then said, "You know, I sometimes don't understand why you're so quiet, then I remember, 'She's smart. She must be thinking.'"

That reminds me of the line from Bon Jovi's "Wanted Dead or Alive," where JBJ makes a big deal of telling us, "Sometimes when you're alo-ooone/ all you do is think!" I love it that sitting around and thinking is indicative of the horrible pains he suffered to bring us hair-enhanced 80s rock.

posted by cobra! 10 April | 14:05

Oh, great scene to this effect in the most recent Doctor Who. He goes back to visit Shakespeare, they have an adventure, in the middle of which Wm. remarks how great it is to not be the smartest person in the room, for once.

I could definitely identify with that.

posted by stilicho 10 April | 14:08

"smart" really is an elusive concept -- there are plenty of people who think they're really smart but they couldn't understand mildly advanced math with a gun to their head, for instance. are they dumb? I don't think so.

or, say, how do you rate musical ear on the "smart" scale? ability to draw?

me, I don't think I'm particularly "smart", whatever that means. I'm a reader, which is very different. and I'm reasonably curious about facts, and things, and people. how do you give a numerical value to curiosity? or to interest in books?

posted by matteo 10 April | 14:12

It's much better to date or marry smart people than to be a smart.

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 14:15

I got as far as first semester calculus and quit....In terms of (say) literary/critical theory, when I was deep into that stuff in college -- Derrida, Foucault, Hegel, etc. -- I could run rings around most of my classmates.

Dude, my math education stopped at proofless geometry in high school. (yes 'proofless' it was a way for the boneheads like me to make the math requirement for college I think) and stuff like Derrida..I've tried to read it but it's utterly incomprehensible to me. So maybe we're talking across a chasm here.

or, say, how do you rate musical ear on the "smart" scale?

when I was writing the coutdown, I was driving pips (a trained musician) crazy asking her for the musical terminology for some moment in a song that thrilled me was. I seriously womder if all the beer I've drunk over the years has killed of too many brain cells.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 14:17

it's okay jon - we shed layers of brain every year anyway.

And remember - people don't kill brain cells, beer kills brain cells. Whatareyougonnado?

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 14:26

heh, i first wrote "brain kills beer cells" there.

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 14:28

HAHAHA!

why I laugh?

posted by jonmc 10 April | 14:28

My iq is supposedly in the mid 130's. When I was in first grade I supposedly tested in the 160's but I kinda doubt the accuracy of that one.

I remember reading somewhere that folks in the 120-130something range were more creative than the ones who had higher IQs.

But, of course it's all only a number. There are plenty of folks with average or lower IQs that can clean a house more thoroughly and efficiently than I could ever dream of. It's a real skill.

I do think the smarter you are the more prone to depression as you tend to see things as they really are and/or overthink them.

Jonmc, why don't you step across an imaginary line and decide that on this side you are capable of just about anything? You are aware that you have had learning disabilities, and with that insight you can now compensate for that-cut the cord to the past, break outta that cocoon, and soar, babeeee!

(Then again I am one of those folks who hatehatehate thinking about the past, get depressed looking at old photos, and functions the best when I don't think of anything much beyond day before yesterday.)

posted by bunnyfire 10 April | 14:29

Jonmc, why don't you step across an imaginary line and decide that on this side you are capable of just about anything?

Because I'm a grownup, and part of being a grownup is realizing that that isn't true.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 14:33

'She's smart. She must be thinking.'

I've gotten this line, too. Little do they know the blank void that is my mind.

posted by small_ruminant 10 April | 14:36

Some kind of study purported to find that a predictor of accomplishment in a creative field is a) you are smart but not too smart, IQ = 130 or so, b) affective mental illness diagnosed in immediate family but not in you, or nuts but not too nuts.

posted by StickyCarpet 10 April | 14:43

nuts but not too nuts

The problem, in a nutshell.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 14:46

I don't really understand this "I don't read Whitman, I can't discuss Chomsky, so I must not be smart" argument. That's bullshit - it's lack of interest and application, rather than lack of brain cells. I can talk all about the finer points of, say, scientific knowledge-making in the West, because it's a topic that interests me, while other people's eyes start to glaze over when I get to Latour or Kuhn. I'm a great engineer and I really eat up math like it's for breakfast, but I am terrible at chemistry. Am I dumb? No, I just never had an interest in learning it. If I applied myself differently in college, I'm sure I would be a great chemist now, rather than an engineer.

It's ridiculous to think that "smart people" just jump in the middle of a conversation, with no background or anything, and discuss politics or philosophy. They've either spent a lot of time studying it, or they're bullshitting (don't discount that, btw. Some of the "smartest" people I've known have turned out to be slick conversational con artists). I can discuss politics, yes, because I listen to NPR all day and read newspapers, long enough to begin understanding all the references and the underlying framework.

My one "smart" that I would never give up is my ability to synthesize lots of different pieces of information - to make a forest out of trees. On the other hand, I wish my memory was better, that I was more creative (like iconomy or cortex), and that I was a natural and clear writer (like jonmc). Then maybe I could call myself smart :)

(BTW, I think interest and application is somewhat a function of previous socialization. One of the reasons a lot of women stop being interested in or doing well in mathematics and sciences is because they're slowly socialized to find little value in learning math. It's the same with reading - a love for reading books isn't innate, but has to be nurtured).

(Eeek this post is long. Will anyone actually read it?)

posted by muddgirl 10 April | 14:47

They've either spent a lot of time studying it, or they're bullshitting (don't discount that, btw. Some of the "smartest" people I've known have turned out to be slick conversational con artists).

My one special genius is that I'm a consummate bullshit artist.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 14:53

It's not really smartness per se that prevents anyone from doing anything. I mean, apart I guess from rocket science or brain surgery or math professing or something along those lines. I tend to think that smartness has different categories anyway, so that people who have the math knack, for instance, are not so smart in other ways, like they're tone deaf or they think Hallmark cards are great poetry or something. I am positive that I - or anyone - is smarter than some brain surgeons in some areas. There are so many different ways of learning and different ways of seeing the world and categorizing some of them as smart and some of them as dumb isn't, in the long run, particularly helpful. I became very aware of that while dealing with my LD son - sure, he's never going to be a math professor, in fact if he ever passes high school algebra it will be a miracle - but he's a total genius in other, less well understood, areas. Like munitions.

What I'm realizing more and more is that it's fear and depression and what stilicho was saying about personality "knacks" that lets us do anything at all, really. So much of it is about gumption and energy and drive and luck and so little is smarts. I mean, haven't you ever run into some successful person who was just as dumb as paste? There used to be an architect around town who I'd run into from time to time and it was some kind of miracle that that man could tie his shoes and order a drink. I mean he was so unbelievably stupid - and yet he was an architect and a well known one at that.

posted by mygothlaundry 10 April | 14:55

I'm a bit fuzzy on the exact number, but when I had a large assortment of tests to diagnose my ADD, my IQ was tested as well. My IQ is something like 130ish, possibly 136 or something. I don't think it means a damn thing. I certainly don't feel any more advanced, I'm at the state university, was lucky enough to be in the top 100 students in my senior class in high school... Whatever. I scored in the 98th and 99th percentile on reading comprehension and vocabulary, respectively. Hence my love of reading and my major of choice, journalism. It basically means that throughout my academic career, I always finished the book first, usually a month ahead of the class, and remembered it well enough to ace tests on it without having to review. I scored in something like the 50th percentile for math, however. I'm lucky if I can remember a phone number from one room to the other. Other than that, I don't think it's had much of an effect on me. (But I wonder if those tests would be enough to join Mensa... :P)

Maybe it's something like gravity. You don't ever notice it, and it's simultaneously a very powerful and a very weak force. Gravity keeps us on the planet, keeps the moon circling around the earth, the earth around the sun, etc. Yet I can defy gravity by securing a shopping list to the refridgerator with a magnet. So perhaps many other factors affect our lives, and our outlook on our lives much more noticeably than our apparent IQ's. I don't know. It made sense in my head.

There are plenty of things I don't understand. If I'm interested enough, I'll take the time to learn more about them so I understand them. If not, then I don't bother. No biggie. Every now and again I'll take a couple hours to read up on quantum physics. I think it's terribly fascinating. I don't understand much of it, yes, but I understand the major concepts behind them. Now, you ask me to a read a book on Pythius The Greek and I will not be able to get through the first three pages. I tried! Required reading in one of my early high school classes. Couldn't do it. Didn't give a damn about it. Maybe that's part of your problem, Jonmc. Read about something you're actually interested in.

My mom used to say I was smart, but had no common sense.
posted by getoffmylawn 10 April | 11:40

I know someone that could be described in this way. She got excellent grades in high school, and got the highest score in several years on the SAT. She's as dumb as a brick, though. Lacks any sort of common sense. She's booksmart, but completly vapid.

posted by CitrusFreak12 10 April | 14:56

IQ is a measure of very limited value. It measures how well a person does on IQ tests. That tends to correlate somewhat well with how people do in academic settings. Whether, and in what way, the score correlates with what we could call 'intelligence' in real-life situations is highly debatable. That's why such constructs as EQ and multiple intelligence theory have been posited -- as fuller or more useful definitions of a person's ability to succeed in life.

I'm quite happy with my level of smartness. I sometimes feel outclassed by the really brilliant people whose analysis and insight are at levels beyond mine, but that doesn't make me stop thinking, or think my points of view are valueless. The acuity of the really brilliant is something I admire, but I can still move things forward by applying my energy and continually learning.

I have been asked this question before, and this has been my answer: when you're smart, you already feel outside the loop a little bit. The things you enjoy thinking about and doing with your brain can seem kind of odd to others. Imagine adding another 20 IQ points to that - what have you done? Decreased the number of people who can understand your thinking yet further? It would be a bit lonely up there. There may be those who can be satisfied with living entirely in the realm of ideas, but I live in a social world, too, and want to have peers who laugh when I laugh.

As has been pointed out above, Mensa is full of losers who don't do much with their intellect, while on the other hand, many people who did not test well on instruments claiming to measure intelligence have contributed in incredible ways. My observations have led me to believe that sheer smartness counts for very little. It's what you do with what you've got. The people I admire most are those who get things done. Those who actually stop talking about or dreaming about things, and make things happen. It's a very rare quality, and it seems to show up at every intelligence level. Some people act, some people are effective, and some are not. On any work or volunteer team, I'd happily trade ten 'brilliant' people who were primarily thinkers for three people with normal intelligence but the energy and committment to get something done, and the humility not to let ego get in the way of a good piece of work. A person with an IQ of 120 who believes in herself and manages to start a business, invent something, or write a book is more impressive to me than a person with an IQ of 160 who watches the news, reads magazines, and complains about how stupid everyone else is. Even socially, people who are passive are less appealing to me than people who come up with ideas and get excited about things. That is my prejudice as a do-er.

If I were wishing for mental abilities, more smartness would not be my wish. A greater ability to focus and follow through on the many things I get fascinated with would top the list. Greater discipline. After that, perhaps an improved memory, or ability to acquire languages easily, or greater facility with mathematical thinking.

posted by Miko 10 April | 14:56

No, flo, your gift is that you are funny as hell.

posted by jonmc 10 April | 14:56

Me not smart, not write so good either. Ow. What I mean there is that fear & depression etc. PREVENT us from doing stuff, and personality knacks help: that it isn't really a function of native intelligence. Also, in the first paragraph, that I - and anyone - is smart is not so smart, methinks. Are smart. Are are are.

posted by mygothlaundry 10 April | 14:59

See? mgl said what I wanted to say with more grace and less cursing.

on preview: well, maybe not much more graceful.

Yet I can defy gravity by securing a shopping list to the refridgerator with a magnet.

Ha! I love it.

posted by muddgirl 10 April | 15:01

::sigh:: But for all my high percentiles with vocab and reading comprehension, I wish one of them allowed me to spell things correctly with relative ease. Apparently that's in a separate package.

posted by CitrusFreak12 10 April | 15:06

I've gotten this line, too. Little do they know the blank void that is my mind.

Ha! Yes, exactly!

Muddgirl, I like the "making a forest from the trees" idea. I do that, too, and I also find it one of my favorite things about my mind.

And Miko brings up a good point with regards to humility. I definitely believe that a great deal of my intelligence relies on the fact that when I encounter something I don't understand, I ask other people to explain it to me (either in person or through looking up the references, etc). I don't bullshit, and I try not to just glaze over or tune out (unless the subject's actually actively boring to me).

I think you can learn so much just by listening to people with an open active mind, and asking questions. I'm not sure if doing so is a mark of intelligence or really just a personality trait, but I know I tend to label people as "smart" who actively seek out information, rather than stubbornly sticking to what they already know (or think they know). I guess it's a function of listening -- I tend to judge people as smart who actually listen to what other people are saying, rather than automatically judging it or arguing against it, who are secure enough in their own thoughts to entertain someone else's.

But I think I am conflating intelligence with intellectual curiosity a bit.

posted by occhiblu 10 April | 15:23

I'm amazed this thread has gotten to 76 comments and not one person has mentioned that smart people are nerds.

posted by Hellbient 10 April | 15:37

Gift idea

posted by Miko 10 April | 15:44

Pssst - CitrusFreak. Use Firefox. It has a built in spell checker that underlines words in red that might* need to be respelled.

*It doesn't like Canadian/English spelling, but I think you can add those words to a dictionary. I haven't bothered how to figure out how to do that yet.

posted by deborah 10 April | 16:08

If any of you fucking pointy-headed nerds want to help me build my ass kicking robot I'll be in the parking lot. You buncha nerdy ass nerd asses.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 16:18

My mom used to say I was smart, but had no common sense.
My sister is like that - she has an IQ that qualifies her for MENSA, but is thick as two short planks in every practical way.

I feel your pain, jonmc - I often feel like I should comprehend a lot more, but can't quite seem to grasp concepts when they reach a certain level of complexity, but I can pull apart and put back together almost anything, or even intuit how something should go together even if I haven't seen it in one piece but, like iconomy, often lose my way when it comes to anything abstract. I can usually remember what the application of the concept is, but not why.

I think, though, that there is a certain degree of this no matter how smart you are - there is a sliding scale of things that are just out of conceptual reach of everyone.

posted by dg 10 April | 16:39

I've been talking about the Myers Briggs test a lot lately for some reason, but dg, what you said reminded me of the split between "intuitives" and "sensors" in that framework:

Sensors are more concrete perceivers, relying more heavily on what they can taste, touch, hear, see, and what is right in front of their noses--they analyze through comparison to their past experiences. They tend to think sequentially from A to B to C, using inductive reasoning (going from the specific to the general).

Intuitors, on the other hand, tend to consider the hunches, the overall picture, the possibilities, the patterns, and to use deductive reasoning (going from the general to the specific). Because they focus on possibilities, Intuitive types draw more on the unknown, the indirect, the not - yet - experienced -- and are therefore more oriented in time to the future. (via)

More info here.

I do think a lot of "intellectual" thought, or what we stereotype as intelligence, relies on what Myers-Briggs calls "intuition" (and may, at its worst, denigrate what they'd call "sensing").

posted by occhiblu 10 April | 16:50

My mom used to say I was smart, but had no common sense.

Not to be a dick, but common sense is pretty much something people made up to feel better about not being that smart. It is possible to lack street smarts or practical experience, but if we're talking about "sense" smart people have more of it. We'd like to believe the world is a fair place and people who get cheated by genetics in one category get compensated in another. But really, not so much. Same goes for that "EQ" crap they tried to foist on me in psychology in college.

My roommate in college used to tell me that: i was smart, but I didn't have common sense like him. This was right around the time the sheriff came to the door to arrest him for stealing from the till at the Blockbuster where he worked. Nice common sense there, buddy!

And I remember a guy i used to work with saying, "imagine how bad it would be to be smarter than everyone else in the room- smart people must be so depressed." Again, it sounds good on the surface, but I don't think it makes any actual sense. What's probably depressing is being dumber than everyone else in the room.

posted by drjimmy11 10 April | 17:03

And, I've never been sure what my IQ was. I took a test in grade school, but they wouldn't tell me the results. My parents and brother kind of started looking at me funny after they found out the results. I'm not sure what the point of that story is.

I was kind of socially retarded in school, pretty much afraid to talk to anyone. But it wasn't because I was "smart" - that was just the way I was. If I hadn't had grades to boost my self esteem and make me feel like I was good at at least one thing, I'm sure I would have been 100 times worse.

posted by drjimmy11 10 April | 17:10

What's probably depressing is being dumber than everyone else in the room.

What's probably depressing is constantly comparing yourself with other people.

I can't imagine wanting to be less able to understand the world around me, or wanting to be less comfortable in the world of ideas, or wanting to have less intuition or insight about anything.

posted by tangerine 10 April | 17:24

And I remember a guy i used to work with saying, "imagine how bad it would be to be smarter than everyone else in the room- smart people must be so depressed." Again, it sounds good on the surface, but I don't think it makes any actual sense. What's probably depressing is being dumber than everyone else in the room.

The whole room is pretty depressing, really. I think it's the paint. How dreary. And open the windows - let in the light!

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 10 April | 17:29

But, of course it's all only a number. There are plenty of folks with average or lower IQs that can clean a house more thoroughly and efficiently than I could ever dream of. It's a real skill.

What do you mean by that, bunnyfire? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

posted by amro 10 April | 17:30

Also, I find it amusing how many people in this thread have immediately preceded their opinions that IQ is just a number and doesn't mean anything with their (uniformly high) IQ numbers.

posted by amro 10 April | 17:34

Not to be a dick, but common sense is pretty much something people made up to feel better about not being that smart.

Could you explain your reasoning behind that?

but if we're talking about "sense" smart people have more of it.

I disagree, re: that chick in high school I was talking about. She's terrific at math, science, etc, and as I said she got the highest score in a very long at my high school on her SATs. But she is the stereotypical "dumb blond." That is to say, from an academic standpoint, she performs very well. In every other situation, she's a total putz.

Also, I find it amusing how many people in this thread have immediately preceded their opinions that IQ is just a number and doesn't mean anything with their (uniformly high) IQ numbers.

The results of IQ tests vary from one test to another. What may be a 130 on one test could be a 140 on another. Also, I don't think there is a universally agreed upon relationship between IQ and "intelligence." And as I said before, I have, according to the test I took, an IQ of (I think) 130 (who knows, I could be completely wrong). I don't even know where that places in relation to other people. I pay attention to the percentiles that I got in my tests, as they give me an idea of where I stand compared to others who have taken those tests. I know I'm good at reading, and retaining info I've read. The numbers happen to back that up. Much more practical than a seemingly arbitrary score which means nothing to me.

Am I exceptionally smart? Not academically at least. I'm at the state uni, not at Harvard. I was 70th or 80th in my class. Thus, I don't think my IQ amounts to very much. It doesn't provide me with anything. I can't put it on job applications, for instance. I don't get paid more because of it. I work (full time, in the summer) as a custodian at a church! And, as I think bunnyfire was saying, other people can do things better than I can; things that are much more practical than, say, being able to retain the vast majority of what I read. Academically, yeah that helped me to get good grades in all of my English classes, but what good does that offer me outside of school? What advantage do I get because of it? Nothing. It's a measurement. A number.

posted by CitrusFreak12 10 April | 17:55

IQ tests vary from one test to another

This is absolutely true, which is why it's not very meaningful to say "My IQ is XXX" when you really mean "I scored XXX on the Stanford-Binet". The Wikipedia article on this topic is, amazingly, pretty good.

posted by Miko 10 April | 18:13

Some kind of study purported to find that a predictor of accomplishment in a creative field is a) you are smart but not too smart, IQ = 130 or so, b) affective mental illness diagnosed in immediate family but not in you, or nuts but not too nuts.

You just described me. Heh. Good to know I'll be successful!

posted by bunnyfire 10 April | 18:24

Jonmc, why don't you step across an imaginary line and decide that on this side you are capable of just about anything?

Because I'm a grownup, and part of being a grownup is realizing that that isn't true.

Aw, horsehockey.

I bet if someone bonked you upside the head, you lost your memory, and Pips refused to let anyone tell you anything about your past, that you would just be totally technicolor compared to the sulky grey you seem to be soaking in at the moment.

That does it. I'm hiding Zoloft in the next batch of sausage biscuits I send you.

But, of course it's all only a number. There are plenty of folks with average or lower IQs that can clean a house more thoroughly and efficiently than I could ever dream of. It's a real skill.

What do you mean by that, bunnyfire? I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

I have been known to stand in the middle of my living room, totally bewildered about what to do as far as cleaning it. It used to take me forever to clean something, and even then I would never be satisfied. Now, some people, who the world would say were less intelligent than I (or less intellectual or whatever, ptui) and they can clean a whole house, cook a great dinner, get the laundry done, and have enough energy for a card game and a cigarrette afterwards. So who's really the smart one?

posted by bunnyfire 10 April | 18:32

I was going to contribute to this thread, then I remembered that the other day I spent 10 minutes stuck in "really bad traffic" before I noticed I had pulled up behind a line of parked cars.

So I'm going out to the parking lot to check out the Winobot.

posted by jrossi4r 10 April | 18:34

Oh dear, I've done that before jrossi. SO EMBARESSING.

posted by CitrusFreak12 10 April | 18:47

That 'stupid people are happier' thing is a dangerous conceit.

posted by box 10 April | 19:12

I've always wished I were smarter. My sister and I were discussing what type of people we admired. I said intelligent people. Sister admires people that are efficient and pulled together. She's intelligent and efficient, but I guess she would like to be more efficient.

I wouldn't consider myself smart, but I've always been an information junkie.

I think motivation and ambition depends on personality more than intelligence.

posted by LoriFLA 10 April | 19:28

Some of my former best friends are highly intelligent people, so they claim.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 20:23

I was going to contribute to this thread, then I remembered that the other day I spent 10 minutes stuck in "really bad traffic" before I noticed I had pulled up behind a line of parked cars.

Oh, Thank God I'm not the only one.

I feel as though I'm smart (except for the above occurance). I can watch a few minutes of a tv program or a movie and know how it's going to pan out. (Then again, these days of regurgitated material, who can't?) It takes family members days to come around to what I've been saying all along. I'm a voracious reader, I have tons of interesting tidbits in my head, I get truly frustrated by others' stupidity. But I must have started this post five times, because I simply cannot express myself on the screen as well as most of you.

posted by redvixen 10 April | 20:38

Smart people got no reason
Smart people got no reason
Smart people got no reason
To live
(apologies to R. Newman)

posted by horsemuth 10 April | 22:24

I'm smart enough to know IQ has no practical application outside grammar school.

(comment #100, whoo!)

posted by Eideteker 10 April | 23:08

HORSEMUTH! WTF! I thought the EXACT same thing!! Great minds think alike, I guess.

posted by CitrusFreak12 10 April | 23:17

"Meh." is about all I have to say to "Have you ever wished you weren't so smart?"

You don't want to know what my Stanford-Binet score is, moreover, I don't want you to know. I'm just about lonely enough as it is.

posted by loquacious 11 April | 01:54

loquacious, I'm really just dying to know what your Karr-Benet score.

posted by cortex 11 April | 13:39

My Beignets score is off the charts.

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson 11 April | 16:00

I've got a sexy mind. You can watch, but you can't touch it.

posted by catfry 12 April | 05:26

10 April 2007