MetaChat - Isn't living well the best revenge?

No, I think they should sit in the room with him and make him feel the heat. People get away with this shit too often. It's not acceptable. They've got every right to push back, and maybe it'll make the rest of this shock-oriented, callous culture think twice next time before insulting total strangers with racist and sexist epithets.

I heard them on NPR tonight and was very affected by what they had to say. They didn't go looking for this, and got dragged into it inadvertently, and now that time they should be spending in history class is being demanded by reporters and photographers. I appreciate what, for once, is a difnified response to the US press circus.

posted by Miko 10 April | 22:08

DiGnified. You know.

posted by Miko 10 April | 22:09

Yeah, I don't have cable but I didn't have the impression they were being interviewed all over the place -- the only bit of media that keeps getting replayed is Imus. This is their moment, and a well-timed one, to come out and say "We're real people, this hurt."

posted by stilicho 10 April | 22:12

I agree with you, danf. The only guy makin' hay while this sun shines is Imus, and he's got all the market share proof he needs when pay raise time rolls around, by now. The girls on the team won't even make enough out of this to afford to have their hair straightened, if they wanted such.

Aw c'mon. It's talk freakin' radio fer cryin' out lout.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:19

I don't think they're interested in making money from this. I think they were interested in playing basketball and being known for that, I think they did quite well at it, I think they're now receiving unwanted attention but handling it in a strong and meaningful way, and I think they see an opportunity to stick up for a civil society in which stupid talk radio does not hold sway over actual achievement and dignity.

have their hair straightened

Oh, that's a classy remark.

posted by Miko 10 April | 22:23

"...Oh, that's a classy remark."
posted by Miko 10 April | 22:23

Just bait, fish.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:26

paulsc,your record speaks far better about you than I ever will. Your entry into this thread is my invitation to depart. Have fun jacking off all over it.

posted by Miko 10 April | 22:32

Those girls are cool and their coach (or her sound bite, at least the one I keep hearing and maybe it's just the way I'm reading it) is right, it's important that women hold this up as an example of shit that's unacceptable. All civil rights victories are won by chipping away at an insurmountable wall, even at the expense of appearing as a victim. It's the little things that count.

I know what you're saying Dan, I mean, he called them "nappy headed ho's" right? (which also, if you're going to run as some kind of king hell bigot anyway, is weak). But they're college basketball players at a traditionally blue collar high achiever college, they're smart, dedicated kids who happen to be good at sports. They are right to take a moment to say fuck that shit jack. Imus was just taking the obligatory rich white man asshole break to shit on someone different than him.

As always in these situations I wish one of them had the moxie to say exactly that, just go on camera and say "Motherfucker who are you kidding right now?"

That will happen one day, I hope. Until it does these women are well justified to air their feelings in any way they see fit. Especially since, as Miko said, it's not like they went looking for it, they just wanted to play some fucking basketball.

On preview, I'd say it's very easy to make pronouncements such as that from your position Paulsc, but a rational and fair minded man would try to put himself in someone else's shoes before he so surely slammed closed the book. I know comfort breeds complaisance, but you are doing your station in life no favors by your attitude.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 22:39

"...Your entry into this thread is my invitation to depart. ...

If that were true, you'd have taken leave a couple of comments ago. But I don't want you to blow a gasket, Miko, on last-word-itis. Feel free to come back and educate us knuckle draggin' Neandrathals. We're still tryin' to figure out how to buy insurance from GEICO.

For the morally less outraged, danf's point is salient. Media in the politicized talk radio world is a rigged game. Outrage pays those who generate outrage. If you don't want to pay the outrageous, consider the source, and move on. Nobody whose mind is open to change is truly listening, any way.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:45

It is the right of the unfairly accused to defend themselves and demand redress of grievances, though time immemorial. Also, you are impertinent sir, mind your manners please.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 22:49

"It is the right of the unfairly accused to defend themselves and demand redress of grievances, though time immemorial. ..."

I think we've got a humor Mobius strip going here, eh, D_W?

posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:51

I don't listen to Imus, I don't listen to the radio at all (NYC isn't a big radio market, probably because most people don't have cars). But I do listen to a podcast (Keith and the Girl) that has a shock-jock edge to it. And I could imagine that one day, if they hit it big and break into mainsteam radio, something they say will get put on a soundbite on the evening news and everyone will say OMG! RACISTS! (and they say some things that, taken out of context, sound a lot worse than the Imus thing) But I don't think I would stop listening, or stop loving them for the crazy bastards they are. I imagine some of Imus' fanbase feels that way about him.

The more I think about the whole thing, the more I think all these things should be allowed to work themselves out in the market. Let everyone say what they want, and let everyone who wants to be outraged vote with their wallets. Then everyone gets what they want and deserve.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 10 April | 23:00

Paulsc, have you been unfairly accused then?

Also, yes, probably. Nonetheless here we are.

I agree that this is the kind of shitass churn that we can expect from talk radio, but I also think that letting it go is contrary to what a person who loves democracy and egalitarianism should believe in. It's the dirty and thankless work of a true believer.

Also,
But Pinks, isn't this really how the market is responding?

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 23:16

There seems to be this bizarre idea that words have no consequences. Racism and sexism aren't funny or edgy or any of that shit. They're hateful and hurtful and really fucking stupid, whether you're pandering to an audience or truly speaking from the heart - not to say that those are mutually exclusive states.

I'm really surprised that anybody is defending Imus on this. Why should he get a pass - because he's on radio? Really? It's all entertainment? Help me out here.

TPS, imagine you suddenly became famous for something you were really proud of, only to find your moment of glory being eclipsed by some halfwit with a radio show calling you... well, I don't know you well enough to even do this in play. You'll have to pick your own horrible insult. Anyway, would you sit quietly while that was going on, or would you speak up? The rest of you, imagine it was your sister, or your girlfriend, or hell, imagine it was just the neighbor you've only got a nodding acquaintance with - are you gonna tell me it wouldn't piss you off just a little?

As for paulsc...

The girls on the team won't even make enough out of this to afford to have their hair straightened, if they wanted such.

I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is.

posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

"Paulsc, have you been unfairly accused then?"

Morally challenged as I apparently am, it's hard to say, D_W. I hope that you, of all people, fully appreciate the irony inherent in this.

"... It's the dirty and thankless work of a true believer. ..."

So is blowing up market squares in Baghdad. So, in these difficult times, I'm really skeptical of the pronouncements of "true believers," unless I, my dog, and my brother are safely ensconced in my bomb shelter. I trust you'll appreciate my position as, at least, practically motivated.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 23:29

Yup, I think so, Divine_Wino. Will be interesting to see how things go the next few weeks.

And I see your point, bmarkey, but I'm of the opinion that if anyone is saying ANYTHING about you, that means you've really made it. Sure it'd hurt- and I'd just say to myself, oh, fuck 'em. But I don't know that that would be justification for whoever said it to lose their job.

I don't like this game we play in America. We love sex and violence and scandal, while at the same time being completely prudish and priggish and lame. And every now and then we have to poo-poo the things we OBVIOUSLY love just to maintain the balance of the universe. Imus would have been fired, *if* people didn't like him so much and he didn't make so much money for his company. But they do and he does, so I'm guessing he'll be around another day. If people want him around enough to keep him there with their wallets, well, who am I to cry about it?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 10 April | 23:31

"the team won't even make enough out of this to afford to have their hair straightened"

Too late, the Rutgers team already got their hair straightened for the publicity photos. "What nappy hair?" The tattoos however remain.

You do know about the tattoos, right? Those tattoos were the lead-in for the nappy-haired hos comment. You see, Imus was satirizing how sports teams are portrayed in the media, that the Tennessee team (primarily black also) was a group of attractive young women while the Rutgers team was tattooed up like a bunch of ..., well, you know the rest.

Context certainly changes the perspective. Instead of an compact soundbite, the reality is a comedy sketch straight out of Carlos Mencia's oeuvre.

"isn't this really how the market is responding?"

No, not really. The only market response that matters is Imus's regular audience. You can't boycott something you don't already buy.

As the song goes:

"There's no business like show business..." and this is the oldest schtick in radio. "DJ is about to go on vacation, DJ makes outrageous remark, station management goes tut-tut about 'suspension', DJ goes on planned vacation, DJ returns to higher ratings as listeners tune in to hear DJ's side of things which is all a bunch of hogwash anyway."

The best headline for this entire incident:

"Bloggers Once Again Duped Into Reviving A Comedian's Sagging Career"

posted by mischief 10 April | 23:40

"...I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is."
posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

That's two in the live well.

BTW, anybody know where Imus is going on his two week Spring vacation? I mean look at the results on that search carefully, and you'll see some travel biz with an AdSense placement is monetizing this at some remove.

posted by paulsc 10 April | 23:41

"Racism and sexism aren't funny or edgy or any of that shit."

Not to you, not to me, but to the remaining 97% of humankind, racism and sexism are the heights of humor, especially if you can work in a fart joke.

posted by mischief 10 April | 23:47

But because Google results are influenced by AdSense spending caps, I return to suggest that interested parties page through a few pages of those search results looking for the phrases "Sources to plan your dream vacation. Get Travel Plans made just 4 You."

posted by paulsc 10 April | 23:48

So is blowing up market squares in Baghdad. So, in these difficult times, I'm really skeptical of the pronouncements of "true believers," unless I, my dog, and my brother are safely ensconced in my bomb shelter.

Brother if you think this is an issue of getting blown up, then we have met the enemy, and he is you, to paraphrase pogo.

If people want him around enough to keep him there with their wallets, well, who am I to cry about it?

Wallets ain't in it, sister. He is coming back because comfortable casual bigots like to hear him reinforce what they already believe. I object to the people who dismiss his critics as immaterial because they somehow don't count unless they swing dollar bills. Mostly I think of him as a weird tombstone toothed facelift addict at the margins of my attention. As always, it's the reactions of people around me that make me want to comment.

Gents, on preview, sure I don't doubt your cynical view, I agree in fact. I guess we part ways on what the response to that should be.

posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 23:52

Wallets ain't in it, sister. He is coming back because comfortable casual bigots like to hear him reinforce what they already believe.

No, it is about money. Everything is about money, especially stuff like that. If he wasn't making as much money for his station, he would have been fired. period. He makes money for them because the people who listen to him are comfortable with the things he says. And firing him wouldn't teach them a lesson, it would just make him a martyr, and they'd all listen to the just-as-controversial guy the station would hire in his place (because, oo, money!). Firing Imus, or even condemning Imus, is not a successful way of teaching racists not to be racist. If it was, we would have learned our lesson the last 20,000 times we went through this.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 10 April | 23:59

I'm not interested in teaching racists not to be racist. I'm interested in hounding them and fucking up their plans. I lose often, I'm sure. I love the underdog, what can I say?

I'll go to my grave with my view of how the world should be unfulfilled, but hey we're all going to our graves anyway, right?

I'm game.

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:07

"Brother if you think this is an issue of getting blown up, then we have met the enemy, and he is you, to paraphrase pogo."

Alas, and alack, dear D_W, I do fear this "is an issue of getting blown up", all out of proportion. You'll pardon my selective quotation, but it's in service to helping construct the spiral of rhetorical excess on which this Tower of Outrage is built.

"... I guess we part ways on what the response to that should be."
posted by Divine_Wino 10 April | 23:52

We do. You, on your windy moral high ground, and I, trogolodyte, unrepentant, in my bomb shelter/wine cellar. Think I'll open a bottle of 1961 Chateaux Latour, and see how this plays out...

posted by paulsc 11 April | 00:11

What the response 'should be' and what the response 'can be' could well be two different things. Imus could have a contract with CBS Radio that prevents them from 'firing' him over this. After all, Imus did not say 'nigger' nor did he use any variant of 'shit', 'cunt' or 'fuck'. Shock jocks have been around long enough for their attorneys to close all the loopholes.

Further, Imus possibly could have been reading from a script that was written and approved in the back room. If so, then he is taking the heat for the corporate brass with the expectation of a sizable bonus when this blows over -- I give it another day or two.

Without doubt, this incident has racist overtones but it also has many unanswered questions.

posted by mischief 11 April | 00:11

paulsc, I'd like to make an honest request of you: Please do not troll in metachat. Please do not carry on grudge wars and make personal attacks. I believe you are capable of acting in good faith here, and I'm asking you to exercise your self-control and common sense about how to behave.

posted by taz 11 April | 00:18

You're a nappy headed troglodyte for sure, paul. I ain't brought up the getting blown up, it was you.

I'm not sure where the windy moral high ground comes in, I ain't better than nobody, just got better manners, possibly nicer, who knows? Enjoy it. I'll be on my stoop with a bottle of Chateaux le Miller Hi-life, waxing windy, awaiting how it plays out.

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:21

Firing Imus, or even condemning Imus, is not a successful way of teaching racists not to be racist.

Perhaps. It would be certainly be yet another step on an admittedly long, long road. Fire enough Imus' and eventually the idea might get bludgeoned in that that sort of remark ain't gonna fly. Sooner or later, people get tired of a steady diet of bullshit, hate and fear. If you doubt that, take a look at how the republican party is faring these days.

mischief: I suppose what you're saying is plausible, but only just. I highly doubt that it was scripted. And , with an eye toward the marketplace, let me note here that his show has already lost two sponsors over this event. His corporate masters may or may not be in on it, but they're not gonna like their bottom line being nibbled. It might get bigger chunks bitten off.

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:26

"paulsc, I'd like to make an honest request of you: Please do not troll in metachat. Please do not carry on grudge wars and make personal attacks. I believe you are capable of acting in good faith here, and I'm asking you to exercise your self-control and common sense about how to behave."

posted by taz 11 April | 00:18

Taaaaaaaz! Good to see ya!

I haven't "attacked" anybody. I bear no one any grudge. I've responded to comments of others, and I think I should be allowed to do so, in the usual give and take.

My opinions differ from others. Surely Metachat can accomodate honest differences. Even, perhaps, some humor, on touchy subjects?

posted by paulsc 11 April | 00:30

I dunno taz, why not let him be who he is? He's here to participate I'm sure, with all that entails responsibility-wise. We're all adults mostly, why not let the market decide?

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:32

What? This is an admission of trolling right here:

"...Oh, that's a classy remark."
posted by Miko 10 April | 22:23

Just bait, fish.
posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:26

Metachat can certainly accomodate honest differences. I'm not seeing that happen here.

posted by gaspode 11 April | 00:33

Look at that paul, what a coincidink, who's a windy no bombshelter having chateaux le whateverthefuck having guy now?

But yes, once again, you are being rude here bud, manners is paramount. It's not the thoughts, it's the presentation.

Goodnight.

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:36

"...I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is."
posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

That's two in the live well.

What does this mean? No snark. I really want to know.

posted by arse_hat 11 April | 00:39

"...I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is."
posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

That's two in the live well.

The secret to trolling, paul, is to use a quiet motor. I'd figure a guy like you would know that. And if you're drinking Latour as a cocktail, you're a bigger ass than I think you are.

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:41

arse_hat: the live well the place in your boat is where you keep the fish you've caught.

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:42

...IS the place in your boat is...

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:44

Oh I know that bmarkey. I just don't get what paulsc is trying to tell me. Is it that anything you say is OK if it's just trolling?

posted by arse_hat 11 April | 00:45

Just bait, fish.
That's two in the live well.

This is not a fishing hole. This is not MetaFilter. This is the land of the bunnies - and sometimes that means not arguing about things and avoiding topics best left for elsewhere.

However, please feel free to go well and thoroughly soak your head. I'm available if you need any assistance or instruction, or any help finding it. I'm really good at finding thoroughly lost things, and I have a strong intuitive grasp I already know where it is.

Erm, you wouldn't happen to have any rubber gloves, would you?

Think I'll open a bottle of 1961 Chateaux Latour, and see how this plays out...

Oh, my goodness. The only thing "played out" here is you.

Ok. You know what? Fuck it. Fuck the snark. It's a losing game.

What the fuck, man? Do you need a hug or need to start a shouting thread or something? Seriously. Forget all that snarky shit I said. Email me if you need to talk about something in private. It might take a while to reply but I will. I'm confidential and earnest.

If you're actually drinking a nearly 50 year old bottle of wine as a light cocktail, alone, and furthermore commenting upon it like we should be impressed - 'cause I'm personally not, and, I am, no lie, almost always ridiculously, disgustingly happy being almost totally broke all the time - well, there's jack shit I could ever do for you financially - and you've either got problems I couldn't even begin to address, or you're possibly selfish or all of the above.

Or you're one hell of a wine snob. But chances are if you were such a wine snob, and such an uncorking was a common occurance, you wouldn't be namedropping. With a link. Gloatingly.

Anyway. I have a pretty sharp head on my shoulders, good ears, and as you can see, a wealth of brutal honesty.

If you choose to accept it or need it, because it is the right path, I offer you open hand rather than a metaphoric fist. That shit was fucked up. Don't do that. But feel free to email me for any reason.

posted by loquacious 11 April | 01:43

If I were a professional black woman, I think I'd take umbrage at being called a nappy haired ho. It's a phrase loaded with sexist and racist connotations. And if I got the opportunity to air my grievances about it on the national media, I would.

TPS: As a listener of that other popular podcast, I'm often shocked by some almost casual racism. Like K&TG, they have an "anything goes" attitude and by-and-large that excuses a lot. But it doesn't excuse enough. I cringe every time they talk about "Fakir o Neill" or "Fag fan Roy".

In their defence they talk about the things they'd talk about if the were alone and I think it's important that mainstream opinion (however fucked up) is aired and known.

To me, this is a complex issue and the only good thing to come out of the whole farago has been the right to reply.

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 02:10

And a £1000.00 bottle of wine... Jeez. Can I come and stay at your house?

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 02:13

As for the paulsc straight hair comment, I believe he made it because he thought it was funny, was told "Racism isn't funny, Paul!", started on the "I only said it to wind you up." road, got accused of trolling, forgot about the winding up comment and said he wasn't trolling (which, initially he wasn't), and finally when shown his admission of said trolling backed slowly into a confused corner and started saying a bunch of confused stuff.

"I'm drinking expensive wine."

So, easy on the guy. He made a mistake and covered it up badly. Happens to everyone.

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 02:22

Plus, don't have a go at someone because they've got an expensive taste in wine. What sort of weird inverted snobbery is that. (* this has been another Saving Paulsc message from me*)

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 02:26

seanyboy, you are a true diplomat. I just thought less of the guy. I do tend to rush to judgement.

posted by arse_hat 11 April | 02:29

I think the girls have been great, responding clearly and without bluster. They're teenagers (or just over). Imus is a dick.

posted by Claudia_SF 11 April | 02:30

The thing that gets me about this whole "controversy" is that it's even a fucking controversy.

Racism is bad. That's something that most rational people can agree on, right? It doesn't matter where it's said or how it's said or who says it or how many people hear it. The market argument, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many bucks he's making for whomever. What he said was bad. But a lot of people use the 'market' to excuse him. Among many people, there would be more outrage (I think) if they overheard some guy on the street corner call someone a "nappy-headed ho." The fact that it apparently falls within the job description of "shock jock" gets him a pass? No fucking way.

Racism is bad.

And that applies equally to paulsc's fucking pathetically ignorant asshole comment about "getting their hair straightened." Right now, for a limited time only, I really wish this site was operated by MSNBC so that he'd get shitcanned for 2 weeks too. I don't care if it's a troll or not. Seeing it anywhere makes me want to vomit. Seeing it HERE makes me want to vomit in primary colors.

On preview: Seanyboy, you ARE a diplomat. Good on you. But in the past, paulsc has made too many comments either overtly or covertly denigrating women, for me to write this one off as humor. I assume that's what Miko was reacting to way up top. And yeah, I realize that it's not very graceful to bring someone's comment history into an unrelated thread. But it's really, really hard not to see it as a pattern. And the hair-straightening thing was just way over the fucking top, even if it wasn't all that surprising, given the source. Personally, I don't care if he's trolling or giving a sincere expression of his beliefs. It's caustic, and I hate seeing it here.

And for the record, I don't give a shit about what wine he does or does not drink.

posted by mudpuppie 11 April | 02:46

I admire seanyboy's generosity of spirit. If I were a better man, I'd share it.

With regard to the wine thingy: The idea of wine as strictly booze is a relatively new one. Sure, there are wines on the market now that might as well be Zima. This was not always the case, and certainly not in 1961.

Wine has traditionally been meant to be A) shared, and B) drunk with food. The people at Chateau Latour meant for their wine to be part of a meal, and structured it accordingly. Only a true philistine, someone without any knowledge of wine whatsoever, would swill it as a cocktail - if, in fact, they could get their hands on a bottle in the first place.

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 03:17

The joke is funny because paulsc is not a racist. He's pretending to be as clueless as Imus. This is funny in a broad sense - the commenter hoist by his own petard, making the same mistake as the object of ridicule - and in a more subtle sense - it evokes our own discomfort, showing how easy it might be for one of us readers to make the same mistake Imus did. That discomfort can make the reader laugh, or can anger the reader. It made me laugh because I know that paulsc is a gentle, humane and kind person who has empathy for marginalised people.

Humour works because of a complex relationship between author and audience. Bill Hicks can imitate a regional accent, or a race, or a type of man or woman, and we laugh because we know that he is a humane person speaking to a humane audience. Mark Steel, a leftist comic here in the UK, can refer to racial or cultural characteristics, or imitate an accent, and it's laughed at, not derided, because Mark is well known NOT to be a bigot - and his audience is like him.

Imus, on the other hand, has a history of bigotry and his audience numbers in the millions, unlike the audience of Steel, or Hicks, or MetaChat. His context is different - his remark can't as easily be taken as humour.

There is no absolute rubric of racist or not racist for cultural content. No criticism without a power analysis.

I am completely sure that he's not drinking Latour right now. I think that's just winding up.

posted by By the Grace of God 11 April | 03:52

"You're a nappy headed troglodyte for sure, paul. ..."

I don't know "for sure," D_W, as IANAL, but it seems to me you might owe Imus copyright royalties here. {Chuckles, regards the last of some good wine in Baccarat.} Reflects, to self: "How quickly the morally upright, ain't?..."

I dunno taz, why not let him be who he is? He's here to participate I'm sure, with all that entails responsibility-wise. We're all adults mostly, why not let the market decide?
posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:32
What? This is an admission of trolling right here:

"...Oh, that's a classy remark."
posted by Miko 10 April | 22:23

Just bait, fish.
posted by paulsc 10 April | 22:26

Metachat can certainly accomodate honest differences. I'm not seeing that happen here.
posted by gaspode 11 April | 00:33
Look at that paul, what a coincidink, who's a windy no bombshelter having chateaux le whateverthefuck having guy now?

But yes, once again, you are being rude here bud, manners is paramount. It's not the thoughts, it's the presentation.

Goodnight.
posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 00:36

"...I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is."
posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

That's two in the live well.

What does this mean? No snark. I really want to know.
posted by arse_hat 11 April | 00:39

"...I've lost count of how many kinds of fucked up that is."
posted by bmarkey 10 April | 23:18

That's two in the live well.

The secret to trolling, paul, is to use a quiet motor. I'd figure a guy like you would know that. And if you're drinking Latour as a cocktail, you're a bigger ass than I think you are.
posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:41
arse_hat: the live well the place in your boat is where you keep the fish you've caught.
posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:42
...IS the place in your boat is...
posted by bmarkey 11 April | 00:44
Oh I know that bmarkey. I just don't get what paulsc is trying to tell me. Is it that anything you say is OK if it's just trolling?
posted by arse_hat 11 April | 00:45

Folks, the page title for this thread is "Isn't living well the best revenge?"

But I'm interested. What's the cost, here on Metachat, of having the opinion that Don Imus should just be ignored, which is the opinion that I, and presumably danf, share?

"It's almost like I want one of them to say, "he's a jerk. Excuse me, I have a history class to get to."

What's the cost of making light of Imus's comments, by trivializing his direct impact, even if the path to trivialization of same be through your comments? ( I could've left this question unasked, but I am a fair guy.) If you don't "get" some comment I make, which might (or might not) be ironic, and "rise" to some "bait" you see without asking clarification, how are you different than a trout which mistakes a feathered hook for a mayfly nymph?

Because there is a tremendous difference between trolling, and parody, even if that parody be as easily opportunistic as y'all make it.

"...Or you're one hell of a wine snob. But chances are if you were such a wine snob, and such an uncorking was a common occurance, you wouldn't be namedropping. With a link. Gloatingly. ..."
posted by loquacious 11 April | 01:43

Bingo. Finally. But loquacious, I hope you'll forgive me, if I don't see you as a pillar of strength and wisdom, even in teapot sized storms.

My point, and I think danf's (have we forgotten danf, the poster who opened this thread?) better made by all of you, in response to what I've posted, than by anything I've said, is that Imus loses his impact if he's ignored.

"... To me, this is a complex issue and the only good thing to come out of the whole farago has been the right to reply."
posted by seanyboy 11 April | 02:10

Yep. Exactly. Entirely.

seanyboy, you I consider a pillar of strength, and great wisdom. That opinion, considering the source, is probably not going to do you much good. Sorry. Socrates' friends, true men that they were, suffered for his transgressions, not the least the loss of his example.

"... But in the past, paulsc has made too many comments either overtly or covertly denigrating women, for me to write this one off as humor. I assume that's what Miko was reacting to way up top. And yeah, I realize that it's not very graceful to bring someone's comment history into an unrelated thread. ..."

mudpuppie, you're hereby called out. Link to "overt" examples of me denigrating women, as a class, on this site, or publicly apologize, because your "covert" sensibilities might just be your own. And, for the record, you misquoted me elsewhere in your comment, I think deliberately, which deserves another apology, if you are big enough to recognize your error. What I actually wrote was "The girls on the team won't even make enough out of this to afford to have their hair straightened, if they wanted such." The point of my comment was the relative benefit they were getting from publicity, versus what Don Imus was bound to get, eventually.

"...There is no absolute rubric of racist or not racist for cultural content. No criticism without a power analysis. ..."
posted by By the Grace of God 11 April | 03:52

I stand in awe, as if before an Oracle.

posted by paulsc 11 April | 04:02

I don't think anyone who owns a bottle of '61 Latour has any intention of ever drinking it. Sixty One is a nice choice of year though. That's the same as the Cheval Blanc Miles drinks from a plastic cup at the end of Sideways. It's about as sad, and likely, that someone would drink a '61 Cheval Blanc from a plastic cup in a cheap diner as that they would drink a '61 Latour while trolling on the internet.

There's a fine line between trolling and the kind of art BFTGG is talking about. Few people can ride that line (even, say, quonsar, screws it up sometimes), but if you consistently fail to ride the line then you become an arsehole. I won't matter how nice a guy real life Paul is or what the intent behind his comments is, after a while paulsc (the internet persona) will become a dickhead. That would be a shame because I don't know the real life guy, only the internet version.

posted by GeckoDundee 11 April | 04:04

BFTGG? Is that supposed to be me? ;)

Big Fan, The George Galloway?

Bunched Farts, Trolling's a Goon's Game?

Bacon, For The Great Gyro?

posted by By the Grace of God 11 April | 04:22

Is Imus more popular than I think? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have heard of him if it wasn't for Howard Stern's constant complaining about him (and I haven't listen to Stern in years).

I'd be shocked if these women (or any 18-22 year old college kid) had heard of Imus before this event, unless they were a regular Stern listener. I suppose it's possible that college kids turn on MSNBC in the mornings, but I can't imagine landing on that program without changing it immediately. He looks and sounds like a deranged and drunken old man.

Not that it matters whether or not the basketball players had heard of him or not, I'm just kinda surprised that Imus is getting the kind of coverage usually reserved for household names.

posted by mullacc 11 April | 04:24

Who's Imus?

posted by essexjan 11 April | 04:35

If you don't "get" some comment I make, which might (or might not) be ironic, and "rise" to some "bait" you see without asking clarification, how are you different than a trout which mistakes a feathered hook for a mayfly nymph?

sophistry
Main Entry: soph·ist·ry
Pronunciation: 'sä-f&-strE
Function: noun
1 : subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 04:42

Belay the Fucking Trolling; Guzzle Grog!

Bejaysus, Forty Turnips, Good Grief!

But Frankly, Toots, Garlic's Great

But For (sic) The Grace of God actually, and no I don't know why, nor what my Id was trying to say.

Jan, he's the arsehole we're supposed to be talking about.

posted by GeckoDundee 11 April | 04:50

Check out the wikipedia article on him.
Ouch!

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 05:05

Do you have anyone like that in the UK at the moment, seanyboy? We have someone similar here. It seems to me the BBC is full of half-arsed "wannabee" radio thugs who aren't thuggish enough to be interesting, and yet are too thuggish to listen to.

posted by GeckoDundee 11 April | 05:15

Not that I can think of.
Chris Moyles (Mainstream Radio DJ) recently pissed Halle Berry off by pretending to be a big black guy. He's also been in trouble for referring to things as "gay".

I also suspect Terry Wogan of the worst of crimes against humanity.

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 06:17

paulsc, speaking as someone who generally admires your broad and deep knowledge about all manner of things, please quit while you're not too far behind on this - you touched a nerve with your troll-like comments and I think you have the sense to step away from it, but for some reason aren't using that sense. I believe that you meant the comment in jest and I am of the opinion that humour generally has no bounds, but it wasn't funny in this context and it insulted some friends of ours, so let it go.

posted by dg 11 April | 06:33

Props to the Lady Scarlet Knights. I learned to appreciate female college athletes when I was at Texas because, relative to the guys, in the major sports at least, the women tend to, y'know, graduate.

Imus and paulsc are two of a kind. Neither's worth much mindshare.

posted by PaxDigita 11 April | 06:45

The funniest part of this for me Paul is where you keep accusing me of being a moralist, hahaha. You are RUDE, that is what I object to.

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 06:54

I agree with you, danf. The only guy makin' hay while this sun shines is Imus,

and Al Sharpton. I agree that Imus is an asshole, and even worse an unfunny asshole, but don't think that Fat Albert didn't start clapping his hands with glee the minute the news hit the airwaves.

posted by jonmc 11 April | 06:55

It's not insulting content or a disagreement that caused me to leave this thread last night; as you all know, I'm more than capable of handling an argument. And it's not that I misunderstood paulsc's "joke," if that's indeed what it was. (I don't think it was, actually, because humor can only be considered subversive in BtGoG's model if its ultimate aim is to use the language of the powerful to condemn the behavior of the powerful, and in this case, it condemns neither the radio station nor Imus nor racists, but the team members. In addition, it makes no sense in the argument because the women on the team never had the goal of making money from a debate with Imus; the statement is nothing more than a vehicle to incite ire. That's why I called out the remark. paulsc often employs an air of disassociation to use inflammatory language.

The reason I stepped away last night was the "bait, fish," comment, which some of you may not know is a reference to another thread, in which paulsc got out of his depth and then used an "I was just seeing if you'd rise to the bait" argument with me as his way out of an untenable position.

So not only was it trolling, the 'fish' comments also indicate that he has been waiting for an opportunity to strike back - in other words, carrying a grudge. These are two behaviors I find exceedingly unwelcome at this site.

I am glad to see that others noticed the trolling, because it is a pattern, and one I'm uncomfortable with at MetaChat. Until the recent point when this behavior started to arise more frequently, trolling was virtually nonexistent at MetaChat, and personal vendettas were rarely if ever evident. We did not come here to 'bait' each other, or to count coup, and it was better that way. The higher standard of civility created an environment in which people have been willing to have more reflective, genuinely thoughtful conversations, and to take more risks in what they were willing to say because there was little concern that anyone would become a target of personal 'baiting' or even dismissive condescension. Sometimes things were heated, but they were typically sympathetic and respectful.

If we tolerate trolling, that atmosphere will change. It has already begun to change, as several people have remarked to me. I'm sorry to see it and to feel it. MetaChat has been remarkable in its freedom from the usual internet-forum power games, but that may have been a fragile youthful stage that has passed.

If we have any sense that community standards generally reject trolling and avoid needless use of racist or sexist rhetoric, then we need to speak up about it. No one enjoys a strong debate or difficult discussion more than myself, but when it takes a personal tone or becomes a game of self-aggrandizing one-upmanship, it's not a debate any more, and it's not MetaChat, either.

posted by Miko 11 April | 07:12

I'd actually agree with Miko that what paulsc was 'trolling,' and pretty transparent trolling at that. I'll be the first to admit that there are aspects of incidents like this that aren't discussed enough, but let's at least be intelligent about it rather than insulting.

posted by jonmc 11 April | 07:17

Wishing I could line up paulsc, Imus, Sharpton, and for good measure maybe Rush Limbaugh too, and Three-Stooges-style dope-slap 'em...

*slap* *slap* *poke* *boink* "Oooooo!"

posted by PaxDigita 11 April | 07:46

If anyone wants to start a pool, then I say Imus's next contract will show a 50% raise in pay with additional bids from Clear Channel and Sirius. Given how FoxNews has covered this, I wouldn't be surprised if they snap up the simulcast if MSNBC decides to drop it.

One thing is certain, this will not shut up the Don Imuses (or even the Chris Rocks or Carlos Mencias). After all, Michael Richards is still receiving Seinfeld residuals and now Bernie Mac is putting together a celebrity roast of Richards to erase the past and put Richards back in good stead.

These guys are writing checks off all the indignation.

posted by mischief 11 April | 07:49

Following on from yesterday's thread about cleverness, I am completely out of my depth in this debate. So here is my contribution.

posted by essexjan 11 April | 08:26

I agree with you Miko. I also know that our definition of "racist or sexist rhetoric" differs and hope those differences can be respected rather than themselves being a source for grudges and snap judgements.

posted by danostuporstar 11 April | 08:36

innocently peeking back in, seeing the trainwreck that he initiated

Gosh. . that'll teach ME to post and log out. My original point was that I was bemused by the POWER that this old white guy on hate radio apparently had over these women. And the probable net result being, after the dust clears, this old white guy having MORE listeners.

I would rather sentence him to the rest of his life in obscurity, and the freedom to spout his vitriol, at will, to the audience of maybe one ferret.

I hope these women put it past them asap and go on with their educations, and their lives.

posted by danf 11 April | 08:49

Re: trolling.

I have re-read paulsc's comments several times and they still look like trolling to me. I am prepared to accept that they are a (imo failed) attempt at humour, or enlightening prose or whateverthehell, as he says. Because I believe in the benefit of the doubt.

However, the willingness to do so fades, paulsc, when you come back into the thread and don't apologise for coming across as a troll. Instead you put people down, again, for failing to grasp your subtle use of language. Maybe you don't want to win any friends, but Metachat has plenty of debates here, since well before you started posting, and have for the most part kept civil. Like the Wino keeps saying, it's the rudeness.

posted by gaspode 11 April | 08:49

TPS: As a listener of that other popular podcast

Oh no!!! Now we have to rumble, seanyboy!!!

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 11 April | 09:29

You have to rumble TPS. Us D&D types tend to rise above all that, knowing that K&TG is a shallow copy and not worthy of our attention or ire...

*ducks*

posted by seanyboy 11 April | 09:41

Mmmm, right. That must be why D&D has more listeners- OH WAIT, THEY DON'T. Oh well, sad for you.

::turns on HEY ALL YOU ASSHOLES COME AND LISTEN TO US, IT'S THE KEITH AND THE GIRL SHOW::

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 11 April | 09:42

Is this something I would have to drink Bolly & Stolly to understand?

posted by GeckoDundee 11 April | 10:06

Speaking of Keith and the Girl, they're discussing the Imus thing on today's episode. You can listen at their website, just press play on the little iPod, episode #478: Psychic Witch.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 11 April | 10:06

Firing Imus, or even condemning Imus, is not a successful way of teaching racists not to be racist.

unfortunately, it's not about that, it's about acceptable content in a broadcast, and acceptable behavior on the workplace. it's not about teaching something -- see, TPS, if you work in an office and decide to poop on the conference room table during a meeting, I'm assuming you'd get fired, and they wouldn't fire you to teach people where the appropriate place to take a shit is, but they'd fire you to punish your unacceptable behavior. period.

same for Imus.

as I said the other day, he got a pass for this thing, next time he'll feel free to say "nigger". I'm sure blacks get a kick out of feeling, once again, fair targets of a little (verbal, OK) stone-throwing.

the fight against racism is one thing. firing someone for unacceptable behavior and for broadcasting racist content is entirely another

posted by matteo 11 April | 10:38

matteo, your analogy is false. If you are paid to poop on the conference table, then you are unlikely to get fired for that action. Imus is paid to be controversial including making racist statements as evidenced by his past behavior.

Further, you cannot rationalize away the double-standard of who can say 'nigger' and who can't. As long as one side gives it a pass for themselves, then many on the other side will feel equally privileged to go to that extreme. That goes for other racist content; if blacks can do it, then many whites will feel they can too. Look at Borat, Sacha Cohen has completely got away with material that is at its root no different than what Imus has done.

posted by mischief 11 April | 10:56

Before anyone says I don't get Cohen, let me say that I get Cohen perfectly well. Those who don't get Cohen are the vast bulk of his fans, those who are laughing at interviewee's comments with which they agree but cannot get away with saying themselves in public.

Meanwhile, Cohen is saying to the intelligentsia out the other side of his mouth, 'Hey, look at the ignorami."

posted by mischief 11 April | 11:08

ignorami? what's that, really simpled folded paper art?

posted by jonmc 11 April | 11:14

It's a kind of highly spiced Italian sausage made out of grout.

posted by Divine_Wino 11 April | 11:29

mmm, grout.

(also, this entire thread consists of a bunch of white people wringing their hands about another white person. just saying)

posted by jonmc 11 April | 11:33

Probably past the point now, but just popping in to back up Miko and mudpuppie. The level of nastiness that paulsc contributes to this site is ridiculous. I don't care whether or not he's serious about it, he's made too many nasty comments in too many different threads for me to read him in any way other than nasty. When questioned or called out about it, he consistently switches to personal attacks. He's been asked to dial it back several times, by many different people, and I haven't really seen it happen. He's certainly turned into someone who will make me leave a thread, as well, and if that's his goal, well then bully for him, but it's made MetaChat a slightly less fun or interesting place for me.

posted by occhiblu 11 April | 11:35

Not being a radio listener, I didn't know what had provoked all the conversations about racial name calling that I've been overhearing for the last couple of days.

A long, thoughtful discussion between clerks at the Columbia book store was at least one good thing to come out of this.

posted by StickyCarpet 11 April | 12:16

"this entire thread consists of a bunch of white people wringing their hands about another white person"

Hey! Someone's gotta do it, especially now that PC has been dead for over a decade. heheh

Speaking of italian sausage, can it truly be Italian if it is made of turkey?

posted by mischief 11 April | 12:27

No.

posted by jonmc 11 April | 12:31

That settles it then.

posted by mischief 11 April | 12:39

jonmc: also, this entire thread consists of a bunch of white people wringing their hands about another white person. just saying)

Nuh-uh, jonmc. I'm here too. And I'm black. Female. And whaddya know, "nappy-haired" but i sure as hell ain't no "ho"!

I found Mr. Imus' comments very insulting as a black professional nappy haired tattooed (non-athletic) woman.

Why can't we all just get along eh? Where's all the peace, love, understanding and all that jazz? Huh? Instead of commending the young ladies in question for staying in school, getting an education and being positive role models for girls of ALL races, he resorts to childish name calling. Not cool, Mr Imus, not cool at all.

posted by ramix 11 April | 13:20

I know you're here, ramix, you just hadn't commented in this thread. It just seemed a little like us whitefolk discussing what's best for everyone else. (and FWIW, I think Imus was out of line (and unfunny to boot), but at the same time, he's a shock jock, were we expecting erudition or something?)

posted by jonmc 11 April | 13:27

It just seemed a little like us whitefolk discussing what's best for everyone else.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, jon. The discussion seems to be centered on what a middle-aged white guy said about some young black women. As a middle-aged white guy myself, I say he's fair game.

Stupid shit remains stupid, whether spouted by a shock jock or anyone else.

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 14:32

I'm not hand-wringing because I'm white; more because I'm female. But I still believe you don't have to be a member of a defamed group in order to speak out against defamation.

posted by Miko 11 April | 16:24

"Ignore it" is what they tell you on the playground when you're being bullied, especially by groups, and it doesn't fucking work.

posted by casarkos 11 April | 17:35

A little follow-up:

MSNBC Drops Imus Simulcast

Pa. DJ Fired For Repeating Imus Comments

posted by bmarkey 11 April | 18:12

My opinions differ from others. Surely Metachat can accomodate honest differences. Even, perhaps, some humor, on touchy subjects?

you must be new here

posted by Wedge 12 April | 12:34

Wedge, thank god you're here.

posted by Divine_Wino 12 April | 20:41

10 April 2007