I suppose it all depends on how society defines child vs. adult. It seems that the more serious the crime, the more likely it is that the young person will be tried as an adult, am I right? To me, by 15, you're old enough to stand as an adult if you commit a heinous crime like this.

When I worked at the mall as a teen, my boss caught a trio of young girls shoplifting (they were 9 or so, in the mall alone; we had them an hour after close for the cops to come- nobody came looking for them. Finally, one of their mother's boyfriends came for them). And even though she saw them do it, and even though they had put the things they were stealing in the bag with the one thing they had bought (rookie mistake), they lied to us, and they lied to the cop; each one pointing the finger at the others. Human nature, I guess. It sounds like the lying is what did those boys in in the end, as well.

I'm glad those monsters are off the streets. The crack and meth epidemics of the 80's and 90's produced a lot of messed up children and now they're teenagers and many of them are lethal. No conscience, no moral center, no empathy. "How could you sentence a child to 35 years in prison?" When they're capable of brutality the likes of kicking and beating a helpless old man to death... pretty easily.

I have to agree with hojoki. I don't have much sympathy for them.

Time to call Dr. Ludovico.

...just singing in the rain...

There's a point in your childhood at which you *have to know* that murdering someone is wrong wrong wrong. 15 and 16-year-olds are just teenagers, but they are WAY past that point.

Did you read the letter from the 'stepmom'? I wouldn't necessarily be as mad at the parents in this situation as I have been in others. Not meant as a snarky comment, I don't always read all the links in a post on the blue if I'm skimming.

They're psychopaths - that's how you give teenagers sentences like that.

Yes, I read the letter from the stepmom via the Metafilter post. I can sympathize.

My husband and most people I know share hojoki's and jonmc's attitude. I think they should be punished, there has to be a consequence, but 35 years for a kid? I don't know, maybe I'm not thinking realistically.

15 and 16 year olds aren't children. They can drive a car, they're applying to college (shoot, I was 17 and IN college), hell, some of them are parents. If you haven't managed to figure out "murder is wrong" by your mid-teens, well, you may just never grasp that one. And if the options are sentence to 30 years as an adult, or sentence as a child and they're back on the street in a couple years when they turn 18, well, I'd feel a lot safer knowing they were behind bars and not walking past my house.

It's not "35 years for a kid" as much as "35 years for doing something really, really horrible to another human being."

He may have got 35 years, but when is he eligible for parole?

A 15 year old knows kicking a man to death over two hours is wrong. If he or she is tried as a child he or she will be out in 3 years. I really fear that someone willing to torture someone else to death now will not be all that different in 3 years. So try him or her as adult.

35 years? And possible parole in what? 10 years? 15? Lets say 15. That makes him or her 30 years of age and he or she will have spent half their life in prison. I don't think prison often helps make people better human beings.

So. I don't want a 15 year old killer sentenced as a child but I really don't want a young person who has spent most of their grown-up time in a cage released back into society and I think the death penalty is a bad idea. Ideas? I have none.

Still, locked up is better than next door to me.

From the CNN article on the blue:

They hurled anything they could find -- rocks, bricks, even Baum's barbecue grill -- and pounded the 49-year-old with a pipe and with the baseball bat he kept at his campsite for protection.

Ihrcke smeared his own feces on Baum's face before cutting him with a knife "to see if he was alive," Moore said.

After destroying Baum's camp, the boys left the homeless man -- head wedged in his own grill -- under a piece of plastic where they hoped the "animals would eat" him.

Then, Moore says, they took off to grab a bite at McDonald's.

Children?

They should have gotten life.

I don't think anyone is thinking realistically, LoriFLA. It's outside of our grasp of everyday reality to understand the "why" and "how" of something like this, especially in the case of the boy (featured in the MeFi post) who reportedly had a completely normal, caring family life.

It seems we deal with homicidally psychopathic people in the same way we deal with forces of nature, like earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, or hurricanes. We try to study them to determine causes and triggers, we attempt to identify warning signals and trends, we do what we can to prepare against them - but in the end, we are powerless to prevent the destruction beyond evacuating the area, if we have enough time and warning.

Prison is like evacuation, except in reverse - we attempt to isolate the destructive force to minimize death and injury to the greater population. Because it's the only solution we've come up with so far. Of course it's not reasonable to sentence a child to 35 years in prison... But the truth is that he probably won't serve even half that sentence, and while heavy sentencing for crimes likes these involving minors may not be a deterrent, light sentences definitely won't be - but more importantly, they won't be tolerated by society. Any justice system is much less about the individual offenders than it is about assurances to the community that their greatest fears, whatever they are, are being "handled". Because one skittish animal can cause a stampede, he is removed, or even eliminated - not so much for his own welfare, but to soothe the herd.

Sadly, under current conditions, that's probably about as realistic as we can get.

Of course it's not reasonable to sentence a child to 35 years in prison

I'm sorry, but the fact that they were around my age counts for very little, in my opinion. How is the imprisonment of these monsters unreasonable? They threw things at him, beat him with a pipe and a baseball bat, smeared shit on his face, and then cut him to make sure he was dead. They hoped animals would eat him, and went to McDonalds. They bragged about what they had done. They took pride in it. They had fun doing it.

They are not children. Chronologically, yes. But not in the way that the usage of the word implies...

I think the problem is we've stripped any sense of rehabilitation out of prisons. It would be nice to think that we'd have enough hope in kids to at least attempt to help them grow and change.

I mean, it would be nice to have that faith in humanity in general. There's so much wrong with our prison system that it really seems like throwing people away, and that's both scary and sad.

I have no grand scheme to fix things, though. But I agree that the entire system is incomprehensible emotionally, at least.

I think they should be punished, there has to be a consequence, but 35 years for a kid? I don't know, maybe I'm not thinking realistically.

Not kids, whatever they are, they aren't kids.

If he or she is tried as a child he or she will be out in 3 years.

That isn't true in most states. In Wisconsin, a juvenile convicted of a serious crime can be detained until age 25.

ARRRRRRRGH.

Hey guys? They're kids. Remember the child soldiers in Liberia? Lots of money, time and expertise is spent rehabilitating them and giving them new lives because their violence took place in the context of a war. It's better for society to rehabilitate them. Long jail sentences are probably in order, but our prison system is unlikely to rehabilitate them.

In the story I linked to, the young men must serve 85 percent of their sentence. About 30 years for a 35 year sentence.

occhiblu sums up my feelings on the subject. I don't have an answer either. But locking a 15-year old up for 30 years in a regular prison once he turns 18 can't be it.

These kids acted as a pack. Nobody had the inclination to say no or run away, which is sad and frightening.

They are not kids. They are cold-blooded manipulators. The parent of the one boy tried everything they could; he manipulated the system to put them under the microscope by playing the "abuse" card. The authorites kept bringing him home instead of taking harsher steps. They couldn't change his ways; they couldn't rehabilitate him. It should have been life in prison. What else? Say they serve 30 years. They're released at 45 years old, give or take. No one will want to hire them, except very limited low-paying companies. How long before they start down the wrong path again? It should have been life. They have shown no consideration for life and thus don't deserve to ever walk amongst us again.

When they get out they may well do something similar. They are very unlikely to be ready to deal with a world which they will hardly know.

Just like Ted bundy, who I see as just as much a product of society as a blight on it.

This story makes me feel so conflicted, almost sick to my stomach. On one hand, these "kids" are completely out of control. On the other hand, have we lost so much faith in humanity that we have to lock up these children (and yes, I was 15 not so long ago, and I was very much still a child then, with no real consideration for others or for my own future), where their inclinations for anger and self-destructiveness will only be nurtured? Where they will almost certainly be beaten, inducted into a gang, and even raped? I would not wish our current prison system on anyone, even monsters who exhibit no human empathy.

Hey guys? They're kids. Remember the child soldiers in Liberia?

These kids weren't starving in the third world. These were a bunch of bored American brats in Florida. Before prison is about punishment or rehabilitation, it's about public safety. It's not in the interest of public safety to have these kids on the streets for a good long time.


Just like Ted bundy, who I see as just as much a product of society as a blight on it.

Many criminals are (to some degree) products of their enviornments, but Bundy would be a poor choice, since by all accounts he was neither raised in poverty nor abused. I'm just curious why you chose him of all examples.

yes, I was 15 not so long ago, and I was very much still a child then, with no real consideration for others or for my own future

But you didn't kill anyone for fun. Did you?

I was an odd mix of mature and child-like when I was 15, but I knew right from wrong.

This was murder, plain and simple. They took a life, without reason, just because they could. They should be in prison for life. No other punishment is suitable.

I'm not arguing that they should be treated leniently because they are 15. I'm saying that sending them through the US prison system for 30 years is just going to make them into harder, more able monsters.

And I agree with you, muddgirl. I don't like the way the US prison system works either, it really needs to be overhauled and in-prison crime needs to stop. I'm not sure how the powers-that-be can stop it, though. Locked down 23 hours per day with an hour out to exercise and shower?