In the light of this, I worry for your daughter.

hee hee. I wondered if anyone saw that. Luckily, I'll get over it, but I can't stand being lied to. When we got custody of her, her great aunt always used to warn us that she was a liar, and add: "Like her mother". Of course, her great aunt is a witch, a hateful witch at that, and I thought we had an open and honest relationship. I was wrong.

Ugh! Stupid, dumb little vixen! I started smoking at 17, for a play I was in and have been struggling to quit ever since. (I'm not entirely sure that the past 7 smoke-free months count as having "quit." I quit with my first pregnancy, too, but started up again the minute she was out. I really hope that this time is for good.)

I really wish I was as smart and immortal as I thought I was at that age.

THE THING IS, AT HOME SHE'S ALL MOUTHY, BUT AROUND HER FRIENDS SHE'S MEEK AND A FOLLOWER.

In other words she's a teenager. Most of us were the same way when we were that age. I started smoking when I was 14 and now I'm stuck with an addiction (one among many) so bad that I can't even face going to bed unless I'm sure I have a pack of cigarretes or at least a fat butt in the ashtray waiting for me when I wake up.

Keep in mind both what it's like to be a teenager and the hard-won lessons of adulthood when you talk to her.

IF SHE WERE MY CHILD, I'D KICK HER BUTT SO HARD, MY FOOT WOULD HURT FOR WEEKS! THEN I'D LOCK HER IN HER ROOM UNTIL IT STOPPED HURTING.

You're right, jonmc. But I must have been a weird teenager, as I didn't mind spending time alone, and I did fake smoking for a week (I never learned to inhale, and she knows that story). I often tell my husband what my teen years were like, because I remember them. My mom once smacked me for mouthing off, and I deserved it. But she ridicules the girl that apparantly she started smoking with for doing the same thing! She makes faces when the youngest comes back from his friends house smelling like smoke. She's a drama queen who once tried to get her father's sympathies by claiming that she cut herself on a regular basis. (mind you, we played along, and asked her to show us, and the spot she showed us had no mark, nor did any other place on her body. She used to try all kinds of sympathy games on her dad as he had guilt over not having custody of them for so long) We've always been open with all the kids, we have frank discussions about all sorts of subjects. We are not our kids' friends, but we expect respect. I'm sorry for the rant, guys. This has got me all bugged out.

pinky, I know your well-intentioned but I can tell you that not only wouldn't help, it would probably backfire. It's the kids of the two extremes-too lax or too strict- who are likely to end up in trouble, or kids who's parents end out mixed signals. The best thing to do is lay down clear limits as to what you will accept, stick by them and at the same time be willing to talk to your kids non-condescendingly and openly about what's going on inside of them or if you can't do that, let them find someone decent who will.

I've never raised children and I know it has to be the most difficult thing to do, so take what I say with as many grains of salt as you wish, but, like Bill Cosby, I started out as a child, so maybe I can remember what was in my head.

You're right, jonmc. But I must have been a weird teenager, as I didn't mind spending time alone, and I did fake smoking for a week

Aw, hell I was a weird teenager myself (and I'm a weird adult, too), but both my parents smoked (as did their parents and most of their friends) and even though they loudly advised me against it, I thought smoking (like drinking) was just what grown ups did. Plus as I got older all the people I admired: rock and rollers, writers,a ctors etc. all smoked and drank, too, which only reinforced it.

Heh. I don't take child rearing advice from people without children. Sorry, jonmc. My child? I kick the butt.

Heh, that was ALSO me, not Stynxno.

Glad someone said that, ThePinkStynxno because, while we were all kids once and maybe have some idea of what that felt like, it is nothing like being on the other side of the argument. As a teenager, you are pretty much expected to act up somewhat but, as a parent, you are held responsible (and feel responsible) for bad things that happen to your kids, no matter how hard you try to convince them to do the right thing.

Of course I don't have kids, either, so who knows. But I know how I was raised, and my parents would have KILLED ME if I ever started smoking. Especially since my father's parents were heavy smokers; his mother died when he was in college of breast cancer. I think smoking would be the #1 way I could break my father's heart.

But I know how I was raised, and my parents would have KILLED ME if I ever started smoking.

Yup. and that's what my parents always said, until I started smoking and they found out. And my Dad's parents were both deceased from bad habits before age 60. And despite it all, they produced me. Things are rarely so cut and dried.

TPS, that's another thing that really gets me mad. Her grandmother (her dad's mom) died of breast cancer when her dad was 23. Her grandfather (on her dad's side, again) used to smoke, now has a bad heart. We make comments every time those Don't Smoke type ads come on tv. And like dg said, I feel responsible for what she does. I know you can only do your best, and then it's up to the kids to make their own way. But you at least hope they choose a decent path in life.

:-( Sorry dear! Hope you two can work something out!

Make her smoke a whole pack at once, in front of you. I've had friends' parents that did this. It made my friends sick for the day, and then not want to smoke again.

I doubt shock tactics will work, but feel free to show her this lovely photo of me with a chest tube inserted to reinflate my lung. Then tell her I still smoke, after five collapsed lungs. That should dispel any ideas she has about 'social' smoking or being able to give up at any time. (Or just make her think I'm a moron, one or the other.)

Heh, that was ALSO me, not Stynxno.

Hmmmm. . .that explains why "stynxno" did not have an opinion on a comic book issue the other night in IRC.

*deep breath and...GO*
She's 16 and immortal, and you're a parent and an adult and you don't know shit. Her friend? She can mock her because that's different. How could you possibly understand? You don't know her friend, and you sure don't know her....rant rant rant, right?

Somewhere out there is a Far Side cartoon with a flock of penguins, with one of them standing up in the middle of it singing "I gotta be me". That penguin? That's your daughter. The trouble is, she doesn't know how to sing, so she's just shouting. And that shouting often translates to lying and cheating and skipping school and treating you like crap and oh, by the way, you don't EXIST because she can get away with stuff, so you don't matter.

She's not going to listen to you unless there are ramifications. She doesn't understand responsibility past the next homework assignment. That's what teenagers do. You can say "but she's different" - but she's not. She may be special and unique in her own ways, but she's a teenager and she's finding her heart and soul, and part of doing that is rebelling against what she knows. And that's fine, but it has to be curbed and managed by people that know what the results of that rebellion can look like, if it goes too far. Your job is to make sure she understands that she has gone too far.

I volunteered for a time at a rehab for youth at risk. Drugs, drinking, smoking, screwing, they did it all. All of them were under eighteen, most were between 14-17. For most of them, their parents were utterly disengaged in their lives - divorce, important jobs, active social lives - anything except parenting their offspring. Your anger here is really refreshing and it's really great to see that anger in action, so use it! You are empowered, keep it up!

If smoking is forbidden, then make it so. Stick to your guns, no matter what. Ground her. Take her ipod and her computer, if she has one. Search her room (and other stash spots - never forget the garage!) randomly and thoroughly. Search HER randomly. Check her breath. Check for ashes on her clothes. Look for tobacco in her purse. Heck, take it to the next level - call her friends parents! Tell them what you found. Talk to her friends about it when they come over. Make her deeply uncomfortable with the whole thing. Make it very obvious that she can't be trusted. She's a liar. Liars must regain trust (etc. etc, you know the drill, mom). Make this "smoking thing" a memorable, sincere event she will REMEMBER and NEVER want to repeat. In her universe - in which she is the center - you will be moving planets from orbit and causing asteroid belts. This is good. It means she understands that you have the power to move her universe in ways she can't even begin to imagine. And even if it causes strain now, I promise you it will pay off later.

Sorry for the rant, but this wound me up like a top. Those kids in that rehab - man. I don't have kids. I am not a parent. I would make a lousy parent. But I learned a lot about being sober and being responsible from those kids. I saw the results of non-parenting in action, in real life. It wasn't a movie. The only kind of authority those kids understood was direct, strong reaction to their actions. The one thing that could have kept a lot of those kids out of there - and many of them - five years later - are still struggling very hard to overcome their addictions (and most never will stop that struggle) - was parenting. You have to use the kind of take-no-prisoners parenting that stops them in their tracks and makes them think - before they do something - about what their actions might mean later. And I think you stand at an excellent place with your relationship with young Ms. Vixen to completely change her perspective on why she shouldn't smoke. It's not because she might die from it, unless its at your hands. It's because if she gets caught again, it will be as deeply humbling and embarrassing as it was this time.

I'm thinking maybe I need to back off the sugar. What do you think?

*falls down on floor, exhausted*

the above was a joke.

If smoking is forbidden, then make it so. Stick to your guns, no matter what. Ground her. Take her ipod and her computer, if she has one. Search her room (and other stash spots - never forget the garage!) randomly and thoroughly. Search HER randomly. Check her breath. Check for ashes on her clothes. Look for tobacco in her purse. Heck, take it to the next level - call her friends parents! Tell them what you found. Talk to her friends about it when they come over. Make her deeply uncomfortable with the whole thing. Make it very obvious that she can't be trusted. She's a liar.

You're right, you would make a lousy parent; this is absolutely terrible advice. She's almost 17. Old enough to consent to sex in most parts of the world, old enough to petition the court to be legally emancipated, old enough to get a credit card, old enough to drive a car, old enough to be charged with adult felonies, and, most importantly, old enough make her own decisions about her health and the mistakes that come with youth. Frisking a 16 year old every time she enters the house is a pretty horrifying suggestion. If you can't trust your 16 year old to make her own decisions about life, you've got serious issues.

Hey cmonkey? Don't insult me, you whippersnapper. I related my experiences and advice that has been learned the hard way. I actually DO parent some of those kids through sponsorship, and they're doing just fine, thanks. I understand your position, but baiting me in your first sentence is a shitty thing to do.

"Old enough to make her own decisions", my ass. Have you met any 16 year olds lately? They're frightening. Usually not in the bad way; just in the young way. If she's living in my house, and eating my food, and using my electricity, she lives by my rules. Period. I think disclaimer is right on the money.

hrm. Good luck with this, redvixen. I understand your anger. I'm not going to offer advice, because I don't have any, never having been a parent, and I think it's better if we are just here to vent to.

And people? Surely there are no hard and fast rules for this? I disagree with and agree with aspects of what most everyone has said. 16 is such that transitional age, and different people are at different levels of maturity and responsiveness to parenting.

"Old enough to make her own decisions", my ass. Have you met any 16 year olds lately?

Well, when I was 16 I was living alone, having responsible safe sex with my boyfriend and taking myself off to scholarship classes at high school. So yeah, everyone's different.

Oooh ooooh! *raises hand*

I am a parent and let me tell you, you're all right. And you're all wrong. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but the truth is that every kid is different. Some respond well to the firm guidelines of the "my house/my rules" approach. Others will respond to a firm hand by ratcheting things up a notch. There really aren't many absolutes in parenting.

Thank goodness. Otherwise, robots could be parents. And I am very against robots.

disclaimer, that was said in jest in response to what you, yourself, said about your parenting skills. Sorry you took that the wrong way.

"Old enough to make her own decisions", my ass. Have you met any 16 year olds lately?

Yeah, I have, although most of them have been runaways or homeless. They still just strike me as just being adults without the life experience. Getting all RARGH ANGRY DISCIPLINARIAN PARENT RARGH on them is kinda sad when they're just a little over a year away from being able to vote or get sent off to war.

Well, I think we can all agree that robot children belong with robot parents.

People, most kids are accomplished liars by the time they are 2. It's a measure of socialization and mental development that a young child demonstrates an ability to tell lies, however unconvincingly, and any parent with a toddler has seen this aspect of personhood come through.

In my own case, I remember fondly the day some 30+ years ago my older son asserted his 2+ year old personhood. I was out in the back yard, and my wife stepped to the back door and called out "You better come see what your son has done!"

So, I came running. The back door of that house opened directly into the kitchen, and when I got there, my son was standing on a kitchen stool, pushed up against a counter, where a couple of pans of brownies had been cooling out, from being baked in the oven. My wife had baked them as dessert for some friends we were having over for dinner, for the first time in a long time, but now, both pans of brownies had big squishes in them, the size of Boy #1's little hands. And his hands were chocolate brown, and cheeks were plumped out with gooey brownie junk, and there were brownie crumbs all down his chin, shirt, and the kitchen floor.

So, I walked over to the counter, and picked up Boy #1, and set him down on the floor, trying hard not to grin and spoil the moment, so I'd have my full height advantage. And then I leaned down and put my face about 6" from his. And I stared him right in his 2 year old eyes, and said, as sternly as I could "Boy, did you eat your Momma's brownies, without her giving them to you?"

His little chocolate covered lower lip pushed out, and tears welled up in his eyes. So I continued; " I won't whip you for sneakin' brownies, but I will whip you for lyin', you know." And the tears ran down his little cheeks, as he dealt with mortal fear, and his lower lip quivered uncontrollably, and he couldn't say a word.

So I used every bit of self control I could muster myself, and I said as seriously as I could, in as deep a voice as I could make, 6 inches from his little face "Boy, DID YOU EAT THOSE BROWNIES?" And he found his personhood, and drew himself up, and shook his head defiantly NO, when his mouth was too full of brownies to make his case verbally.

And I grabbed him up, and hugged him, and popped him on the butt, and laughed, and cried with his momma, and he cried, and we asked him again if ate the brownies, and he blubbered, and cried and nodded Yes. And we knew he was going to be a sane person, of his very own, if we just didn't screw him up.

She's 16, and stupid, and trying now, as much as she was when she was 2 or 3 and told her first important lie, to be her own person. Don't take any shit, be her parent, but don't take this all that personally. We all needed secret vices at 16, to become our own persons. If you haven't raised a cretin, she'll drop the smoking when she doesn't need it to be the person she wants to be, and not a minute sooner.

You are the parent. Love her but stick with your own heart. Be strong when needed or be flexible if that's what it takes. Children like the grups are individuals. There are no simple answers. Do what you need to, to help an individual. And to the childless in the thread, (except gaspode) I love all of you but you all sound just like folks without kids. No clue. Or I guess what mostly what jrossi4r said.

It sucks when you see them head off the wrong way but hopefully she has learned from you and will eventually find the right path. Just stick by her.

YAY the sane mecha community weighs in! I fumed all night about this and it's been defused. Good. Hurrah. Huzzahs. And redvixen, from one parent of teenagers to another, they are horrible little trolls from hell, aren't they? Take a deep breath and repeat after me: This too shall pass. . . this too shall pass. Because it will, you know. My daughter has had lengthening interludes of sanity as she has left her teens (okay, with a few lengthy regressions, too) but they do grow up, they do, for the most part, find their own weird way in the world and all we can do, again for the most part, is love them and do our best. Be honest. Be excellent to each other inasmuch as it is possible and be honestly pissed off when it isn't. This, I think, carries us all a long, long way.

As for the smokes, sigh, I know. My daughter smokes and I hate it. I made her hide it from me for years on the theory that at least she was thus smoking less - besides, I got kind of an evil kick out of watching her scramble for listerine and make sure all the car windows were down in subzero weather. ;-) What I tell my son, who says at 15 so far that he will never smoke although, you know, everything changes so fast - is that if you ask anyone who has smoked for more than 3 years what they regret in their lives they'll say starting smoking. It's the one thing all us smokers have in common, besides the bad skin and the cough and the heavy chest.

Hahah, paulsc, that chocolate brownie story is great.

YAY the sane mecha community weighs in!

Hope that's not a dig at anyone here. You can agree or disagree, doesn't mean people who don't agree with you or share your life experience are not sane.

No, it's not a dig, it's a reassurance to me at least that if a thread is left alone here, usually it will become pretty calm and reasonable. By sane I really mean calm.

FWIW, though, for the most part I don't take parenting advice from non-parents either and some of the advice in this thread upset me. But I'm leaving it behind now.

I'm not a parent, but I was a teenager not so long ago. Every kid is different, and my mamma says both my brother and I were trouble in our own way. I was too smart to fall for the parenting techniques that worked with him, and he was too unmotivated to respond to the parenting techniques that worked for me. However, she did have one hard and fast rule: She payed the mortgage on the house, she paid for our food and clothes, so as long as she was "investing in our futures," we had to follow her rules in her house. If we wanted her to treat us like adults, then we had to act like adults: namely, get a job and pay her room and board.

Hey all,
Yeah so I reread my response here and it comes across as really heavy handed. Understand that my experience comes from work with at-risk kids, and so it's probably not appropriate here.
Take what you want and leave the rest, I guess, but I'm sorry if I upset/offended anyone. It wasn't my intent and actually its pretty out of character for me.

Your thoughts on the topic were interesting, disclaimer; chime in anytime!

I thank you all. It took me a couple of days to calm down, and a couple of intense discussions between my husband, daughter, and I. I think there is a lot of validity to all of your comments. I fear for her as she is very meek around her friends, very much the follower. I don't think she has been smoking as long as she claims - she's simply around us too much for us non-smokers not to notice. My next step is getting pictures of diseased lungs and the results of smoking (thank you jack_mo) and hanging them around the house. And she can be the one to tell her grandfather and aunt and uncle. I plan on making this whole thing an embarrasment, and hopefully making an impression. Thanks again, everyone. You really helped me out.