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01 November 2006

In Maryland "no" counts for nothing once sex has started An appellate court said Maryland's rape law is clear -- no doesn't mean no when it follows a yes and intercourse has begun.
So once you say yes (oh yeah, there's gonna be great interpretations of consent now), you have no more agency to act. No changing your mind because the other party is getting scary, or hell, whips out a giant dildo that you're not prepared for, or because you just don't feel like it anymore. You're no longer in control.

The non-ambiguity of the law would presumably mean someone who continues (what began as) consensual sex after hearing "no, stop, you're hurting me" could be charged with what now? Some form of assault? Careless somethingorother causing injury? This is not good.
posted by gaspode 01 November | 11:32
Well, OK I didn't word that completely correctly. Of course you can say no. You can say no and fight all you like. You can't subsequently bring rape charges.

Who was the dickhead politician that suggested that if rape was unavoidable a woman should just lie back and enjoy it?
posted by gaspode 01 November | 11:34
That is one of the most disgusting laws I've ever heard of!!
Right up there with the good ol' Jim Crow.
FUCKIN' HORRIBLE!!!

God forbid one of my sister's or cousins should end up in a situation like that.
Maryland is practailly begging for "street justice" here and I would be VERY willing to employ it.
posted by Joe Famous 01 November | 11:41
That would be Clayton Williams.
posted by JanetLand 01 November | 11:41
What does the Maryland Court of Special Appeals consider to be the beginning of 'intercourse'?
posted by cmonkey 01 November | 11:44
This article has a little more information about the specific case that led to the ruling. I expect there will be some legislation introduced during the next session to make the definition of rape in the statutes more specific. (And those kind of things are SUCH fun to proofread!)
posted by JanetLand 01 November | 11:46
Who was the dickhead politician that suggested that if rape was unavoidable a woman should just lie back and enjoy it?

As an aside, Robert A. Heinlein in Friday has the female protagonist not only say it, but do it. She also ends up marrying one of her (gang) rapists, who is portrayed very sympathetically in a "you were just so beautiful I couldn't help myself" way. I never read a single word by Heinlein after that.
posted by George_Spiggott 01 November | 11:51
Hm. So if I invite someone into my home, I have no right to ever ask them to leave?
posted by jrossi4r 01 November | 11:52
She told him they could have sex as long as he stopped when she asked him to, the documents say.

But as they were beginning, the woman told a prosecutor, she asked Baby to stop and he didn’t for several seconds. [from JanetLand's second link, emphasis added]

Definately a dangerous ruling, but the specifics of this case seem a bit of a grey area.
posted by danostuporstar 01 November | 11:58
Yikes...that is pretty messed up.
posted by richat 01 November | 11:59
Oh yeah dano, it's less the specifics of the case and more the implications of the appeal court saying that the law, as stated is unambiguous that I was interested in.
posted by gaspode 01 November | 12:00
Isn't this one way that laws get sharpened and refined? If that's what the law says, it's the judical branches obligation to uphold it, even if it strikes them as wrong/bizaree (which I can't imagine it doesn't). So really, if this ruling brings about a change in the law, that's a good thing.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 01 November | 12:07
*looks up from Jrossi4r's couch, with a belly full of potato chip crumbs* What? What?
posted by Lipstick Thespian 01 November | 12:12
What fucking year is this? Jeezus.



what what what what what
posted by Specklet 01 November | 12:13
Lordy, LT, I misread "couch" as "crotch."

That's a good point, TPS.
posted by jrossi4r 01 November | 12:26
Specklet, baby, you need to adjust your expectations.
posted by pieisexactlythree 01 November | 12:27
Here's the opinion, if anyone was interested: MAOULOUD BABY v. STATE OF MARYLAND (PDF). I haven't read it yet.
posted by sbutler 01 November | 12:39
Here's the Headnote (bolding mine):

JURY INSTRUCTIONS; COURT’S RESPONSE TO JURY QUESTION REGARDING WHETHER PRIOR CONSENT VITIATES CRIMINAL CHARACTER OF POST PENETRATION WITHDRAWAL OF CONSENT; BATTLE V. STATE, 287 MD. 675 (1980); QUESTION POSED BY JURY, “IF A FEMALE CONSENTS TO SEX INITIALLY AND, DURING THE COURSE OF THE SEX ACT TO WHICH SHE CONSENTED, FOR WHATEVER REASON, SHE CHANGES HER MIND AND THE . . . MAN CONTINUES UNTIL CLIMAX, DOES THE RESULT CONSTITUTE RAPE?” WAS NOT AMBIGUOUS AND THUS REQUIRED A SPECIFIC ANSWER AND, NOTWITHSTANDING WEIGHT OF AUTHORITY TO THE CONTRARY, SHOULD HAVE BEEN ANSWERED IN THE NEGATIVE UNDER THE MOST CURRENT MARYLAND LAW TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

Which makes it sound just like what I said before.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 01 November | 12:53
I'm obviously dumb. I don't understand what that bold bit means, TPS.
posted by gaspode 01 November | 13:46
I don't either.
posted by Specklet 01 November | 13:53
The quote TPS posted was the court's response to a question asked by the jury. Basically they were trying to use common sense to make their ruling, but the court's response said they had to use the most current Maryland law instead. The bold part doesn't make that point as emphatically as the clause that follows it.

posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 14:25
Jesus Christ, just read the court document and this REALLY PISSES ME OFF.

Here's what happened. And note that it's probably NSFW.














[NSFW! STOP NOW!!]





The complainant [the girl] complied with the request of appellant [the guy who was charged] and Mike [who apparently wasn't charged] to sit between them on the back seat of her car. Mike put her hand down in his pants and asked her "to lick" it. Appellant then asked her to expose her breasts; when she did not comply, he fondled her breast with his hand. After Jewel acquiesced to the boys’ insistence that they stay ten more minutes, she found herself on her back with appellant removing her jeans and Mike sitting on her chest, attempting to place his penis in her mouth. After she told them to stop, the pair moved her around so that her body was up in appellant’s lap as he held her arms and Mike tried to insert his penis in her, but briefly inserted it into her rectum by mistake. After Mike again
tried to insert his penis in the complainant’s vagina, appellant inserted his fingers in her vagina. After appellant exited the car, Mike inserted his fingers, then his penis into her vagina. Mike then got out of the car and appellant got in. Appellant told Jewel that it was his turn and, according to the complainant, the following transpired:

Q. [ASSISTANT STATE’S ATTORNEY]: And what else did he
say?
A. He, after that we sat there for a couple seconds and
he was like so are you going to let me hit it and I
didn’t really say anything and he was like I don’t want
to rape you.

* * *

Q. So when Maouloud said I don’t want to rape you, did
you respond?
A. Yes. I said that as long as he stops when I tell him
to, then -

Q. Now, that he could?
A. Yes.

* * *

Q. Did you feel like you had a choice?
A. Not really. I don’t know. Something just clicked
off and I just did whatever they said.

* * *


I don't care about how laws are written or what the statute says or what the legislative intent was.

That was rape, and we live in a fucked up world.

posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 14:34
God DAMMIT this makes me so fucking angry.
posted by Specklet 01 November | 14:38
mudpuppie: you left out the part where they all got high before this took place.
posted by sbutler 01 November | 14:47
What the fuck difference does it make that the guys got high? That gives them an excuse?
posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 14:48
Something just clicked
off and I just did whatever they said.


That makes me really, really sad.
posted by jrossi4r 01 November | 14:50
mudpuppie: you left out the part where they all got high before this took place.

NO means NO. I don't care if you're drunk, high, on the rebound, or stupid. There is no excuse for rape, ever.

Not "but she was asking for it by being in a car with two guys." Not "but they were all high." Not "but she said yes five minutes ago."

NO.
posted by Specklet 01 November | 15:07
Exactly.

And for the record, the girl wasn't high, it was just the guys.
posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 15:15
Yea, mudpuppie summed up my bolding correctly- the appelate court said, look, we understand that what you said was common sense, but we're not talking about common sense, we're talking about the law, and you have to abide by it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 01 November | 15:22
No, I'm not saying it gives them an excuse. But it could also explain why both have slightly different testimonies. Why their perceptions of the situation varied. Why the defendant might have taken a couple seconds to stop when she told him too. Etc, etc.

I think it's an important part of understanding the circumstances. And if you're going to quote from the opinion and get people outraged, then I think it helps to know everything (and both sides of the story... but whatever).

And to answer Specklet, there's an interesting footnote that relates to your point, and more generally what level of consent was given:

The State maintained throughout that Jewel L’s apparent consent was never volitional. Had the jury accepted the State’s major premise, the issue of withdrawal of consent would never have been considered during the deliberations. The issue of post penetration consent, was, to be sure, injected into the case, not by the appellant or the State, but rather by the jury in its consideration of the evidence during its deliberations. Although we cannot know precisely the thought processes of the jurors, the evidence was that appellant and Mike had suggested that Jewel L. and Lacey S. get a hotel room because the girls were older and that, when appellant and Mike began discussing sex and the former produced three condoms, Lacey, apparently uncomfortable with the turn of events, made it clear that she did not want to accompany the trio. After complying with Lacey’s request to drive her back to the restaurant, Jewel L. drove the two boys, at night, to a residential area and parked her car on the street. She then climbed into the back seat of the car between appellant and Mike. Notwithstanding the State’s theory that Jewel L. was tricked into joining appellant and his accomplice on the back seat of the car, the evidence presented to the jury provided at least a rational inference that (1) Lacey sensed that a sexual encounter was contemplated by the two boys and chose to leave the trio; (2)that, although Jewel L. certainly did not relinquish her right to refuse appellant’s sexual advances by climbing into the back seat of the car, by agreeing to remain with the two boys, she had abandoned the security provided by Lacey’s presence; and (3) the earlier conversations about sex and appellant’s production of three condoms should have been indicia of their intentions. All of the foregoing evidence was before the jury for its consideration in contradistinction to the State’s theory that Jewel L., an eighteen–year-old college student, was tricked by two sixteen–year–old high school students. The rape trauma syndrome, discussed, infra, was competent evidence to explain the unusual behavior of Jewel L. subsequent to the sexual encounter, but would have no bearing on her actions preceding the alleged rape.


It's a footnote because apparently the jury didn't weigh these circumstances heavily. Which would support your position. So settle down.

I'm only on page 33, but I can start to see where the court is going with their analysis. Interesting, not their fault, and the law should be updated.
posted by sbutler 01 November | 15:28
In the court filing, there's also a long and really infuriating legal hash-up of when rape is rape and when it's sexual assault, and it comes down to how much force is used. In legal terms it does, anyway. No one who's been in that situation thinks about it in terms of how it's defined in the Criminal Code.
posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 15:35
And if you're going to quote from the opinion and get people outraged...

So settle down....

Hmm. Get back to me after you've been through something like this, because maybe then you can look at it as something that happened to someone and not something that some court reporter typed up.



posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 15:40
Hmm. Get back to me after you've been through something like this, because maybe then you can look at it as something that happened to someone and not something that some court reporter typed up.


Translation: You aren't qualified to discuss this. Your opinion is beneath mine in importance.

Arrogant.
posted by mcgraw 01 November | 15:41
Arrogant: making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
posted by mcgraw 01 November | 15:45
it sounds like you guys are misconstruing the appellate court's opinion, and its implications.

as an aside, i've never heard of a rape victim asking for the rapists phone number after giving the rapist a ride home. how common/typical is that?
posted by Wedge 01 November | 15:46
Hysteria:

1. an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear, often characterized by irrationality

2. A damn good Def Leppard album
posted by mcgraw 01 November | 15:57
(i'm joking by the way... noone's being hysterical. i just wanted to make the def leppard joke)
posted by mcgraw 01 November | 15:59
(The definitions are annoying, mcgraw.)
posted by danostuporstar 01 November | 15:59
gotcha dano.

the one on arrogance was spot on.

sorry to have joked in this thread. no, there's no place for joking in this thread. i shouldn't have said it.
posted by mcgraw 01 November | 16:02
The quote TPS posted was the court's response to a question asked by the jury. Basically they were trying to use common sense to make their ruling, but the court's response said they had to use the most current Maryland law instead. The bold part doesn't make that point as emphatically as the clause that follows it.

Oh yeah, see, the reason I was confused is that I was wondering why the bold bit was highlighted and not the next bit, and I thought I was missing something.

My outrage is not at the case*. It is at the law. Sure this case might ultimately lead to the law getting changed, but the fact that the law exists as it is at present? Not good.

*I can do outrage for the case in another thread if you like...



posted by gaspode 01 November | 16:03
My outrage is not at the case*. It is at the law. Sure this case might ultimately lead to the law getting changed, but the fact that the law exists as it is at present? Not good.

Exactly.



sbutler:

No, I'm not saying it gives them an excuse. But it could also explain why both have slightly different testimonies. Why their perceptions of the situation varied. Why the defendant might have taken a couple seconds to stop when she told him too. Etc, etc.

You didn't say that in the comment I was responding to. Can you see how I misconstrued your comment to see it as insinuating that there was an excuse for the men's behavior?

So settle down.

I find this comment rude.


Wedge:

I have said nothing about the appellate court's opinion.

And, as an aside, it is relatively common for a rape victim to identify with her rapist, not unlike the Stockholm Syndrome.

posted by Specklet 01 November | 16:21
That makes me really, really sad.

This whole thread makes me really, really sad. The fact that there's even a conversation to be had about it makes me really, really sad. (Which is not in any way meant to be a jab at gaspode. Thanks for the link, 'pode.)

Maybe I am arrogant, mcgraw. Maybe I am. (And thanks for the totally non-arrogant definition of "arrogant." Most of us here are pretty stupid, after all.)

And I'll admit right now that your translation of my comment was pretty spot-on. Nice job. So, to "arrogant," add "asshole," because....

Yeah, I DO feel like my opinion on rape and sexual assault is more -- what was your word? qualified? -- than someone who's never experienced it. Yes, I do. And yes, I react when someone says that "rape is never okay" and is then told to "settle down." And no, I won't fucking apologize for that. Having the weight of experience, the cachet of being a fucking survivor, is possibly the only good (and I use the term loosely) thing that comes from having been through it. No one can take that experience, that expertise, away -- not in a chat room, not in a court room. So yeah, I feel qualified to reign forth, and I'm sure a lot of other women here (1 in 4, if you believe in stats) do too.

And if that makes me arrogant, I don't rightly give a shit.
posted by mudpuppie 01 November | 22:07
Can we just really stop telling women to settle down, simmer down, or otherwise shut up on issues that directly relate to how women are treated in this society? Because it's condescending and obnoxious, even when meant jokingly.

Actually, it'd be great if we could stop telling women to shut up, period.

Or anyone. If someone's upset, assume they have a right to be, and learn why. You don't have to share their outrage once you've heard their story, but it's the height of arrogance to assume you not only know where they're coming from but also that their opinions and concerns are invalid.
posted by occhiblu 02 November | 01:36
mudpuppie,

you did not clearly indicate that you have endured such an attack until you said you have in your last post. not that we needed to know, in order to respect your views.

but, when you said:
Get back to me after you've been through something like this, because maybe then you can look at it as something that happened to someone and not something that some court reporter typed up.

you assumed that sbutler never has endured such an attack. for that matter, are you correct to assume that noone else in this thread has ever been sexually assaulted? to use your stat, which i don't doubt, one in four on this thread probably have. so for you to assume that you can somehow divine who might 'speak from experience' here, and for you to place your opinion above others, is a significant error in this discussion.

fair enough, i shouldn't have offered the definition. i'm sorry to have been rude to you.

but you're wrong to diminish the opinions of others just because they haven't clairified whether they have been sexually assaulted. not many people on this thread, if any, have said whether they have or not and, understandably, noone has asked them.
posted by mcgraw 02 November | 09:46
mcgraw, drop it.
posted by occhiblu 02 November | 11:00
occhiblu,

How can you be such a hypocrite? Your sense of entitlement here rivals mudpuppie's.

How can you say "Can we just really stop telling women to settle down, simmer down, or otherwise shut up" and then tell me to shut up?

Who the fuck do you think you are?
posted by mcgraw 02 November | 11:04
The entirety of your comments here have been to tell mudpuppie she's being arrogant. (Well, and me.) If you have something substantive to say, I'm sure we're all happy to hear it. If your only goal is to belittle another poster, then, again, drop it.
posted by occhiblu 02 November | 11:08
And this brings us to the main problem I see with Metachat:

A small number of people feel entitled to shout down others who disagree with them, declaring themselves as above others.

I spoke up to defend sbutler's right to voice their own opinion (male or female, abused or not? - I have no idea who sbutler is). mudpuppie dismissed sbutler's views by implying that sbutler has never been sexually assaulted and whose views therefore shouldn't be counted along with hers. I spoke up to defend the right of sbutler and others to have their ideas considered as valid and not beneath mudpuppies or yours, particularly when it appears that mudpuppie was jumping to conclusions about who can 'speak from experience'. Perhaps sbutler didn't wish to reply to mudpuppie by saying, "yes, I DO know what you're talking about because I was sexually abused or attacked, myself".

Also, I never said I don't think this case is horrible or who I agree with here. That's not the point.

This site should be moderated by administrators who are considerate of all posters views and right to express them without being shouted down by a small vocal group of peoople as less important. And if you occhiblu, or mudpuppie, are serving as admin on this site, then I think the site is run poorly for you to denounce others' views as insignificant through your assumption they may not have been sexually assaulted.
posted by mcgraw 02 November | 11:23
You do realize that it was the "Settle down," coming from sbutler, that rubbed people the wrong way?
posted by occhiblu 02 November | 11:41
What a poor response to "Settle down."

What if sbutler HAS been raped? How would she or he feel when faced with deciding whether to admit that here in a post in order to somehow meet mudpuppie's standards for inclusion into this discussion?

That's fucking sick.
posted by mcgraw 02 November | 11:48
Well mcgraw, sbutler hasn't said anything one way or the other since s/he said to "settle down" so I'd hesitate to assume anything one way or the other. You however jumped in here on one of your pet bandwagons. Enjoy the ride, I guess.
posted by gaspode 02 November | 11:55
No ride here.

Maybe sbutler never returned after being shouted down like that.

I have no axe to grind here, other than denouncing this dismissal of another Metachazen, which assumes a lot about that person's personal life:

Get back to me after you've been through something like this, because maybe then you can look at it as something that happened to someone and not something that some court reporter typed up.

That's my pet bandwagon for you.
posted by mcgraw 02 November | 12:00
I know I shouldn't, but I have to say something.

mcgraw, I'm sorry you're upset and I understand why, but your reaction is out of proportion to what has happened. (We don't even know if sbutler gives a shit.)

but you're wrong to diminish the opinions of others just because they haven't clairified whether they have been sexually assaulted.

sbutler's email says his name is Stephen Butler.

Chances of him being raped are pretty goddamn slim. The 1-in-4 stat is for women. Yeah, it's possible he was raped, but someone who had been raped would not tell a person to "settle down" when they said rape was never excusable. So I think mudpuppie was okay to assume he'd never been raped. And that, it seems, was your contention.

So you're mad because mudpuppie assumed sbutler had never been raped? And that, because of that assumption, she said she is more qualified to discuss it?

In my opinion, yeah, she IS more qualified to discuss it. If that makes me arrogant too, so be it.

And what "small group of people" shouted him down? I asked him if he could understand why I assumed his comment about the men being high was some sort of excuse for their conduct. I never said anything about his right to express his opinion. mudpuppie's comment, the one you keep quoting, basically told him his attention to the legalese of the case did not really take into account the fact the an actual person was assaulted.
posted by Specklet 02 November | 13:04
Who the fuck do you think you are?
---
That's fucking sick.

You might want to go back and read the definition of hysteria you posted. There's no reason get so worked up over a discussion, especially after implying others are acting overwrought.


Actually, it'd be great if we could stop telling womenanyone to shut up,
---
mcgraw, drop it.

I can't see how you can possibly square these two statements.
posted by danostuporstar 02 November | 13:13
Oops, close /em after "drop it".
posted by danostuporstar 02 November | 13:13
Because creating a space in which everyone is allowed to speak and is comfortable doing so is important, and creating that space requires that people who are simply putting others down or silencing people in any way -- as opposed to actually presenting opposing or controversial views -- shut up.

It's the same thing as arguing that racist views should be allowed to stand simply because we must be "tolerant" of everything -- no, we shouldn't.

There's no need to be tolerant of intolerance. If the manner in which you are engaging other people is designed to shut them up, belittle them, or shame them, then you're being an asshole (I'm speaking with the "editorial you" here). And I don't think there's any reason to tolerate people being that kind of asshole in the name of inclusiveness or tolerance, because those people are not extending the same courtesy to others.
posted by occhiblu 02 November | 13:21
I don't get this week's PBF. || This is kind of nifty.

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