Oh, and in the new location, this sort of style is certainly much more "normal" than it was in our previous home, Vermont.

I argue that by choosing to wear $2000 worth of clothing on the 4 different occasions that I've met them that they are asking to be judged (they probably, IMHO, bought the stuff hoping to be judged positively)

k8t, I have no ill-will towards you at all. Okay?

But.

If your opinion of people is going to be based on what they wear or buy, and not on how they act or what's in their hearts, you're judgmental. Period. You're judging them based on what they look like. The fact that they carry (what you assume is) $2000 in swag, and that you are trying to guess their personalities based on that, is not any different from assuming that an African-American you see outside the 7-11 is an illiterate drunk.

It's all judgment based on your misguided perceptions.

Get to know them before you dismiss them.

They may be assholes. But at least give them the chance to prove it.

Or are you a troll?

They're knock-offs, don't worry.

When I finally move back to this town, I will likely meet other grad students and, as I always do, make all of our friends for us.

What the fuck? Post that to AskMe--I dare you. The ensuing pile-on will be quite entertaining.

They ALL, without exception, carry expensive Louis Vutton bags, Manolo Blanik shoes, high end designer jeans.

People in their 30s with decent jobs, no kids and no mortgage have a lot of disposable income. Even if they save and invest a decent amount.

That said, $2,000 is probably a big overestimate. Designer jeans could've been purchased at an end-of-season sale, the shoes could be factory seconds, the bags are probably fakes.

And give their money away? For a lot of people, this just isn't satisfying. They see no tangible benefit--the money goes far away to address problems that seem to continue on and on. A few thousand dollars here and there doesn't mean much. Maybe if they had time to volunteer for local causes? But most people don't. Most people just want to spend their short time on this planet enjoying themselves and seeing after the well-being of their immediate family and friends.

But basically, yeah, you're being bad. Stop it.

I've lived in a part of the world (namely, south florida) where people live for designer clothes/shoes/bags/whatever.

I've also lived in New England (you mentioned VT).

The thing is, no matter what crowd you hang with, everyone has their own breed of snobbery, their own codes and norms.

You have your Prada/Gucci/Cosmo-drinking/Jag driving folks who summer in the Hamptons and winter in South Beach, all with their precious tiny dogs in designer "puppy purses."

You have your pretentious academics who name-drop literary big shots and discuss (fill-in-the-blank) theory all night at an underground interpretive dance performance while drinking crappy wine they term "a haughty Chilean with legs up to there!"

You have your New England-style rich hippies who quote Jello Biafra and purchase fair trade batik Nehru suits for their au pairs while pushing their Montessori darlings around in $1300 strollers as they shop at IKEA.

The one thing I've learned for sure is that you can't take people at face value. I have friends who fall into any of the following categories: lefty/righty/evangelical/atheist/artsy/frat boy/trustafarian/euro trash/white trash/trailer trash/southern trash/socialite trash/scenester/emo/punk/goth/country/sorority slut cheerleaders/militant feminist/gender queer/baby dyke/trans dude/yankee/canuck/drugged out/hardcore straight edge/hippie vegan/etc etc etc etc etc.....

I love them all because I gave them a chance beyond the superficial. And thank the lord they did the same for me, because I'm a loud crazy bitch.



You have

Sounds like you are afraid to become like them. Stepford pressure, and all. Get to know them; they might be nice. Then, you can take those bitches down from the inside. Start inviting them to charity gigs, to do volunteer work, etc. Material wealth is like, bad, man, but more flies with honey, you know? Scorn is so psychoecologically bad; like, it's poison for the environment of the mind.

make all of our friends for us.

Yikes! Has your boyfriend seen this thread?

You're not bad, but it'd be the best thing to try and get to know them without judgement. I too get a bit weirded out by women who wear the overly expensive costumes. Firstly, because it's contrary to my own way of life and secondly because I always worry about the amount of debt they have to get themselves into to stay up-to-date with their also indebted peers.

Finally, I'd probably be all about the judging in order to get in there first. In your situation, I'd really be worried that my more "bohemian" style would be sneered at and I may try to get a couple of quick jabs in first. This is understandable but wrong.

Don't do this. Treat them nice. They're your man's friends and you should give them the time of day. If, after spending time with them, you still don't like them, then you can start to judge them.

This is the boyfriend who became a slob while you were away, right?

Invite his friends round. It'll solve one of the problems. Either he'll get his act together and have a shame-induced cleaning frenzy, or, if he doesn't, his friends will be horrified at how he lives and you'll never see them again.

Yeah... I kinda have to wonder if you're playing with us, now, k8t. The question boils down to "should I judge people by what they wear?" - and the breathtaking arrogance of "make all of our friends for us" is right over the top.

But if you are actually sincere about all this, my very best (entirely well-meaning) advice for you is that you need to start whittling down the superiority complex, because if you don't, somebody's going to come along and do it for you, the ouchy way.

I think we need Capn's help with this thread. He really helped me out with my safety deposit box.

You're judging them based on what they look like.

That is intended. It's naive to think that consumption of fashion is meant just for the wearer. Clothing for those able to afford it, is a combination of personal and social goals, so I think you're being disingenuous here.

Yeah, you're being bad. Just because they don't dress like you, doesn't mean that you can't be friends with them. You don't mention anything else about them. Are they nice? Fun to talk to?

This happened to my cousin. She married a guy who got transferred to a job overseas. All of his co-workers' spouses also wore designer clothes, had maids, rented apartments. It was a part of the lifestyle. She didn't adopt their style of dress, but she did become friends with them. Not because it was easier on her husband, but because they were nice people.

Give them a chance, and try not to be so judgemental an appearance.

I don't think you are bad. These folks are choosing to project a certain image, and that image does not reflect your values. So you are reasonable to be polite and not unreasonable to think you probably have nothing in common and no shared values with these people. Judging people by their clothes is in no way comparable to judging them by the colour of their skin, especially if they can afford to have clothing options. They have a choice what to wear, that choice speaks volumes about what image they wish to project, that image speaks volumes about who they are. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking you are any better than they area.

As for making all the friends, this is probably a simple statement of fact, for better or worse. Blame the b/f, not k8t, if it is for worse.

I'm going to rock the boat and say that I sympathize with you. Conspicuous consumption makes me extremely uncomfortable. I think it's becuase I was brought up in an area with really highly evident economic disparities and it was considered incredibly impolite and honestly completely crass to display your wealth in the way you describe. It bothers me. A lot. And I have a really hard time dealing with people in my pesonal life who don't see anything wrong with 70K cars and wearing $2,000.00 worth of clothes.

That being said, these may be perfectly nice people for whom you simply have a visceral dislike. You may or may not be able to overcome that, but I think that you should try. Unless your boyfriend is typically a crap judge of character, they probably aren't all that bad. If you make a real effort, find out they are unbearable bitches, and decide to persue your original plan, fine -- but at least you tried. They may be perfectly fine people who just have (what are to you) strange priorities.

and, as I always do, make all of our friends for us.

That sounds like a good shortcut to ridding yourself of your "boyfriend."

I've been in your situation.

For me, it was the underlying impetus for those feelings was jealousy. How dare they afford to dress that way when I'm a poor grad student and feel guilty at splurging $200 for a pair of pants every other year.

Relax, as long as they aren't denigrating you for not dressing up to their "level," just roll with it.

Thanks all. It seems, as usual, that there are 2 sides to this.

I should have probably also mentioned the following things that occured with these folks which also added to my general negative impression of them:

At meeting number 1, boyfriend mentioned that I had just gotten back from election observation in a country ending in -stan and that I had spent 4 days without a shower due to lack of electricity (his choice to tell, not mine). One of the women said, "Well, isn't *that* exotic?" Then boyfriend said, "k8t, isn't it true there that people make about $400 a year?" to which I replied yes. And one other woman replied, "They should spend that on deoderant."

At meeting number 2, after someone asked me about my dissertation research in other "stan" countries, one said, "Can we please change the subject to something less depressing?"

When boyfriend was discussing that I was doing a language course this summer in a language some would see as "weird" another one said, "Becareful k8t's boyfriend, she might leave you for one of the native tribesmen."

These were 3 seperate statements by 3 seperate women (of the 6 total).

As for making our friends, that might have sounded bad, but it is true that my bf has trouble making friends. Generally what has occured is that I intitiate new friendships for "us" more easily.

If you're going to make your own new friends anyway, then don't spend your energy or breath worrying about these women (believe me, they ain't spending their time worrying about you). The fact that your bf has made some new friends on his own, without you, is something you should be supporting and celebrating -- the fact that you don't like his friends' wives (for whatever reasons, legit or not) is such an enormously distant second so as to be almost irrevelent. In other words: yes, you're being judgmental, and yes, you should stop it (or at least keep it to yourself).

What's your real agenda here? Do you want him to renounce his new friends because of their wives? Do you want to continue to be the chief friend-maker in the relationship? Do you need to be "right" all the time? (I ask not to attack you, but to try to prompt you to consider your real motives beyond what you've set up as a moral binary -- i.e., "they are wasteful and bad, while I am responsible and goood.") Because that's just unhealthy for your relationship.

On the other hand, do you want to shame them, or possibly even convert them to your way of being in the world? Because lemme tell you, girl -- and I am speaking from a world of experience here -- that's a no-win, crazy-making prospect.

You say you will be polite to them? Great. You say you won't go out of your way to see them? Fine. You say you don't want to fight about it? Then don't.

What I want is for him to stop forcing me to be good friends with them.

I asked him, "Tell me what is so great about them that you like them so much that you think that I should like them too?" He had no idea.

I have a very bad first impression of them. And as I said, I will be polite to them, if we go out with them I will make conversation.

But I have no interest in pursuing them to be my bestest bestest friends.

Well, why does he really want you to be good friends with them? Maybe he feels that after all those years where you "made friends for the both of us," the situation should be similar now (that is, now he made some friends for the both of you). Maybe he feels that by disliking the wives, you're judging his ability to make friends. Maybe he worries that if you aren't friends with the wives, you will discourage his friendship with their husbands. It seems pretty obvious that you have nothing in common with these women, so there's got to be something else at stake for your boyfriend here.

Maybe this is the time in your relationship where you guys branch out into having your own social circles that don't always overlap. You have to be okay with that, and then you have to reassure him that you're okay with that.

In other words, the real question for your boyfriend is NOT "why do you think they're so great?" Instead, ask him "why is this important to you?" That's because I don't believe that the underlying issue here is really about them or their designer bags or (even more legitimately irritating) their dismissal of your dissertation research. It's not about them at all, really, and as long as you (and your boyfriend) keep talking about them, then you'll keep going round and round in circles -- missing the fact that it's really about the two of you. Basically, can you both support each other having different friends with different values?

Are you and your boyfriend properly matched? Or is he like them too?

I'm with Rumple here. I have a big chip on my shoulder about wealth and privilege, and I think that privileged people who only care about their own consumption and show no curiosity about or compassion for the rest of the world, are a large part of what is wrong with this country. The way they choose to dress is a big tipoff that they don't share my values and in fact probably subscribe to values that are antithetical to mine.

On the other hand, it does sound like you and your boyfriend have some pretty big issues to work out that have nothing to do with Prada or Ralph Lauren or whatever.

turkmenistan?

condolences on having to leave Vermont.

They sound annoying, the other wives, to me. I felt like I was surrounded by people like this when Seattle changed from grunge to dotcom world. On the other hand, you were gone for what, a year? Nine months? And he has some new friends. You and he sound like you have many other incompatibilities, if you'll allow me some reading between the lines. You don't have to be friends with these women. On the other hand -- and I'm not the world's best expert on relationships right now -- maybe you just need to leave it be. You guys are obviously having a tricky re-entry, and this is a part of it. You're not moving back in with him for a few months, give yourself some time to get re-acquainted with each other in that "oh yeah, this is the reason we're still together..." way and once you get back in touch with that, you can decide how to deal with The Wives. In short, getting fussy with people because of how they look seems a bit excessive. If they're snotty rude to you, it seems totally okay for you to be polite, cordial, and no more.

make all of our friends for us.

Yikes! Has your boyfriend seen this thread?

Hell, Mrs. Doohickie makes most of "our" friends. She's a better judge of character than I am anyway. In a lot of couples, it's the wife that makes the social arrangements most of the time.

I think it is pretty normal for the female half of the relationship to do the social legwork - at least in my experience and in my immediate circle, so i don't see that as any kind of issue.

I do think that you are acting bad by judging people based on what they wear, though. I'm sure you would be annoyed to find that they were judging your worth to the universe on the way you dress, so you should extend the same courtesy to them. Treat others as you wish to be treated etc. I don't think designer clothes mean much these days in financial terms, with all the knock-offs and discount stores available. Also, being in a relationship is to a certain extent about those intercecting circles wherein live all the things you have in common. By shutting out his friends, you are making that intersecting area a bit smaller, which doesn't bode well for the future. If that matters, then you should reconsider but, if not, do what makes you happy and to hell with him.

The above is advice only and no guarantee of accuracy or appropriateness is stated or implied. Use at your own risk.

I think it's nice that a centrist dialogue is happening in this thread, instead of polarized poo-flinging. I wonder how communities get from here to there?