With a same-sex partner, you can demonstrate exactly what you want done to you. That's tough to do on an opposite-sex partner, who has none of the same equipment, never has, and doesn't understand what it's like to have your equipment. How do heteros overcome this?

I've found that using my partner's hand while pleasuring myself gives them an excellent idea of what I like. As for actual intercourse, discussion helps in figuring out who likes what when (dirty talk is my new favourite thing in this regard). Paying attention to the sounds they make helps a lot too.

As for when or how I learned to fuck....I have no idea. I guess I just picked it up a long the way and I'm always eager to learn more ;)

Are you using "fuck" as a euphemism for something sexual?

Two women in my past, who were very tuned into their sexuality and open to expanding it.

I owe them a lot for them just being open with me and bringing me along.

One thing that both of the other commentors mentioned was the lack of hesitation to 'bate in front of a lover. These women pretty much showed me what they liked that way. And I was able to show them what I liked.

They both dumped me but in retrospect, I am glad that their paths crossed mine.

My last boyfriend was ten years my senior. He knew what he liked, he was willing to show me how to do it and he was also willing to work with me to explore what I liked. End result is that I'm pretty confident in what I want and I know how to listen to cues to satisfy my partner. And I'll try anything twice...often three times. :)

Eerie. I was thinking of asking a question just like this, but more specific - I was wondering how and where it is that heterosexual guys teach each other how to please women sexually. This seems to go on all the time; you see a lot of it on AskMe, but that can't be the only place. Somehow [the good] men, once mature enough, seem to arrive at a philosophy and set of skills that it really doesn't seem that they've learned from women; I'm talking about this sort of shared understanding among men that sex is usually best when structured so as to ensure the greatest possible pleasure for the woman, and that then because she's feeling good, everything else (i.e., making it good for him) tends to flow from that, and then specific techniques on how to achieve this goal. The answer is probably obvious, like late-night drunken talk sessions or older brothers or something. And it's definitely charming. And it's true that sex is better when run that way.

I can't recall being 'taught' specific things since my very first partner, who did give some pretty clear instructions on all the basics. I've learned the most through discovery, which involves being with a partner who helps you feel comfortable exploring and being open to trying things they come up with, as well. And you learn by being attentive - listening to requests, noticing things that work well. Just plain old good communication and feedback.

But I also wouldn't underestimate the importance of actual research. When I was 16 or 17, my girlfriends and I were all pretty fascinated with this new part of life, and spent a lot of time poring over the usual sex books, magazine articles, and comparing notes. Although the level of fascination/obsession has certainly dropped in adulthood, like lunaticfringe I'm always eager to learn, too, and there are some good sources of information and ideas (including girl talk). There are still plenty of surprises left.

It will never cease to amaze me what I find myself willing to talk about on MetaChat.

This is going to sound goofy, but a lot of my "technique" when I first started having sex I learned while reading romance novels. Not the hearts and flowers kind, the kind that had some pretty graphic detail about what the guys were doing to the girls. I took that info, and then applied it to real world situations, then listened to the feedback (aka grunts, moans and sighs) and then voila!.

Miko: I totally understand what you mean. I was about to post a specific example of something I do that I learned from a romance novel. Then I got gun shy.

Oh, and to answer your question, scarabic, I really don't think I had one partner that influenced what I do when I have sex with someone. After my first lover, I sort of went on a sex-spree and learned a lot of different things from different people. Including prostate massage and how to find the G-spot in women.

Those folks taught me the "hands-on" way, meaning they let me try it and gave me direction. I think that's the key: you need to find a partner who is open enough with their sexuality to not be afraid to let you experiment.

i dunno. it strikes me as kind of generic that you could be taught to be good at sex, as if sex is the same thing with any partner. it seems like the first thing is that everyone is different. i'm sure there are some generic, general "good sex" things, but it just seems that you need to learn what's good for the specific person you're with more than anything else.

hell. not that i'm any expert.

...sex is usually best when structured so as to ensure the greatest possible pleasure for the woman, and that then because she's feeling good, everything else (i.e., making it good for him) tends to flow from that, and then specific techniques on how to achieve this goal.

i think if you really like a woman this idea occurs to you naturally. unless you're a teenager around puberty, in which case you're unable to even think... you just wantwantwant and assume somehow that it'll all end up perfect for the other person in the process. yeah, right, LOL, eh?

again, though, i'm far from an expert.

I watched a lot of amateur porn, and while I don't know of my skill in actual intercourse, I've been complimented on my abilities in other areas. No one really ever taught me, but I'm very observant in the sack, and I file away things that work for reuse later.

Find someone equally inexperienced. Treat exploring each other's bodies like a game without end. Sex is "good" when you're both into the spirit of it; it's not about technique, despite the theatrics you see in porn.

I'm talking about this sort of shared understanding among men that sex is usually best when structured so as to ensure the greatest possible pleasure for the woman, and that then because she's feeling good, everything else (i.e., making it good for him) tends to flow from that

Hm. I usually just consider it everybody's responsibility to please their partner as much as possible. I don't do it for her specifically so that it will flow back to me, so I may not be included in this shared understanding between men. I have actually been with a couple of women who are happy to sit back and enjoy without really returning the monumental efforts that were made to please them, so I guess I have some doubts about the premise. Some men get a huge ego boost from pleasing their woman, and I think some of them focus on it for that reason as well.

On the other hand, some women appear to believe that men are simple animals, sexually, and just need to get off. I can understand this view, since we are often singleminded about sex, not to mention easy. But I find that just getting off without having been truly aroused is not satisfying for more than few minutes (and indeed can feel very disappointing and isolating). Hence my desire to learn how to teach someone the finer points. I think I'm generally afraid of teaching because I fear I'll make someone feel inadequate. "No, don't do it like that, do it like this," etc. That's a stupid fear. Unless you've been letting them do it the "wrong" way for years :P

I'm not inexperienced, Alex. My thing is that my modest experience has shown a wide variety in skill levels among the women I've dated. I am wondering what can be done to increase that skill level for any particular individual.

The best operators, in my humble experience, are not the best partners. And the best partners are not always the best performers. The ideal solution would be to be able to improve someone's skillset in the sack. I have done a fair amount of trying to teach, in the past. But sometimes people just don't absorb. There's also a problem sometimes where you're telling the other person exactly what you want, and they are technically doing it, just without any natural "feel" for it or any particular skill/enthusiasm. Those situations are tough. "Yeah, that's it, now once more: WITH FEELING!" lol

The best operators, in my humble experience, are not ALWAYS the best partners.

my bad.

What is this "sex" thing of which you speak?

I was born to fuck.

What is this "sex" thing of which you speak?

I hear you, mgl. I think it involved skin and grunting noises, but I might have to check Wikipedia.

I could be totally wrong about my premise, scarabic. Although I have seen evidence of some conversations of the type I mentioned between men, which is why I started wondering about it, maybe it's not as widespread a thing as I imagine. And now that you mention, some people are just plain selfish lovers.

I think I'm generally afraid of teaching because I fear I'll make someone feel inadequate. "No, don't do it like that, do it like this," etc.

Please don't be afraid of that. To me, it always feels better to be guided/asked for things than to suspect and wonder if maybe my partner's not satisfied. If someone asks for something, I don't feel inadequate; I feel like they trust me, enjoy being with me, and hence consider the quality of the sex worth investing in.

I think simple communication is the answer if someone's not doing exactly what you'd like. One of the nicest things about a relationship is being able to talk about sex together with the goal of keeping it exciting or helping it continue to improve (as opposed to just having sex routinely and never discussing it). Sometimes conversations about sexual technique are best held when you're not in the midst of the act; either afterward/between sessions, or in totally non-sexual places and times.

You can first try the old suggest- and-positively-reinforce. ("You know what I really love?/would like to try?..." and then "Thanks, I loved that" when it happens.)

I can't imagine reaching a point in life where sex is pretty consistently good without having had these types of conversations. If I had expected everyone to arrive in my bed with a full complement of well-developed skills perfectly adapted to me and my tastes, I would be a very disappointed woman today. When it gets better, it does so through shared enthusiasm, attentiveness, and talking.

Miko, thank you so much for sharing this.

Two things. . .

1. I have received no information of value from other men.

2. Enthusiasm counts for a lot.

It's hard to answer a question like this - I've never "learned" anything from anyone I've ever been with, nor had to teach someone anything either. If you're into someone, it usually just happens, right?

Of course, outside of some same-sex action early on, my tastes in the bedroom are pretty vanilla, so maybe I've never had to put my thinking as well as my jimmy cap on at the same time.

Final thought - just trust each other. If you don't trust your partner, why in hell are you fucking them?

If you set aside stuff particular to a partner, I learned an awful lot from books, natch. I was reading several adult sex books from the age of 12 or so, four years before I lost my virginity. (Indeed, a story my mom likes to tell is how, when I was eight, I intercepted some junk mail to my parents for a series of books on sex to give to a teenager. I filled out the form, sent it in. And the books came. My parents were like, "Um, what is this?" But they let me keep them. I've known about reproductive biology and the mechanics of sex since I was eight years old.) Not all of the books were reliable: I read "Everything you wanted to know..." in junior high school. It was years before I learned that there was a lot of bad information in that book. I looked "The Joy of Sex" a lot during that period, too, but I didn't really learn much from it.

That didn't help me on that first time, even though I had, er, bragged to my partner that I'd be very good. Nope: came in about 45 seconds, then asked her if I could call my cousin and tell him I'd lost my virginity. She was a good sport about it.

I learned a lot from a Master's and Johnson textbook. In fact, I learned a very useful thing: suggest to your partner a signal (if they're too shy to talk) as feedback for when you do something that feels particularly good. And communication in general. I also was aware as a teenager that a very large portion of women were anorgasmic, and I was aware of the various therapies to address it.

All that said, the result is that I'm technically a good lover, but I'm too in my head. The result is that there's probably a bit of something missing no matter how "good" I am; and, in fact, that missing part affects my own enjoyment more than my partner's. At least until my partner understands that this is happening. Basically, I don't know how to just fuck. Working through these kinds of things were a big deal with my last SO. These days, though, in the last few years there's so much pain in my hips that having sex at all is a problem that I've not found a solution for.

At first, scarabic's question struck me as weirdly generic. How can there be such a thing as "what to do in bed" across the board? Surely it's about what feels good to the two of you?

Then I thought about it some more.

I've spent time in a lot of different cities, and I think that's made me good at getting a feel for a place fairly fast. I can easily navigate strange transit systems; if I get lost I don't panic; I like scoping out neighborhoods and finding cafes, parks, other places where I'll feel comfortable and happy. I can make decisions by running subliminal compares-and-contrasts on a lot of data.

There's an analogous skill with getting to know new people. If you generally like talking with people, then the wider the range of them you encounter, the better you get at dealing with new ones. Eventually you can easily zero in on what you'll both enjoy talking about, so that you can easily start a fun and interesting conversation with just about anyone.

You see where I'm going with this. If you've only had sex with a few people, even if they were long-term relationships and the sex was frequent and wonderful, you haven't had much practice in getting your bearings quickly with a new person. It's not that you lack "technique" per se -- you may simply not know what to listen for first with a stranger.

This might explain the skill discrepancy that scarabic's describing. Over time, if you're both enthusiastic, observant, and responsive, of course you'll figure each other out. But in the short term, experience with a lot of different people probably really helps.

I bet that also at least partly accounts for scarabic's observation that "the best operators aren't necessarily the best partners."

in the short term, experience with a lot of different people probably really helps

I think it does. It widens your available repertoire of things to try (hopefully). A truly skilled lover will not wait to be told what to do but carefully try lots of different things and look for reactions.

I actually don't mean to imply that people who are "realtionship material" can't be good lovers. It's just been difficult for me finding both in one package, is all. And I have not searched the world far and wide, either. When I say IMHE, I mean it.

In 1992, I enrolled in the University of Michigan's Center for the Advanced Study of Fucking. (CASF)

Isn't that in the Complexity Studies department?

Porn. And from homosexual dalliances as a teenager.

It was the seventies and mainstream porn like Penthouse was pretty explicit and adventurous, so when the time came, even though I had next to no experience, I knew there were certain things I was supposed to do, and from the male/male dalliances I learned what felt good. Either that or I'm just a natural.

It concerns me a bit that people might be learning from porn. Porn sex and real sex are...different. Porn sex is designed for the greatest visual appeal, not necessarily what feels the best. I'm not down on porn, it is what it is, just saying it is probably not the best instructor.

I'm willing to make an exception for some amateur porn, which tends to resemble actual sex a bit more. However, even that stuff is influenced by what the performers think sex is supposed to look like -- i.e., images drawn from commercial porn.

Scarabic, I kind of think every relationship has sort of a learning curve with sex. It's true that having more experience establishes a better schema for projecting onto the next partner. But even with partners with less experience, time and the right attitude should absolutely improve matters. Just work on it (in a fun way). The person who starts out as relatively inexperience may end up being the best love you've ever had, if she grows really comfortable with you, and wants to experiment and learn. I've never known sex with anyone not to get better and better over time.

I kind of think every relationship has sort of a learning curve with sex


I think you're right about that. And it seems important to establish good, open communication early on. You can do a lot more to shift the trajectory of that curve if you start early.

It concerns me a bit that people might be learning from porn.

What concerns me is folks imitating it, or setting their expectations based on it. It's one possible place you could learn something new to try, which is harmless and beneficial. I think it can even help people with inhibitions. Perhaps watching people do something scandalous is a half-step toward shedding the inhibitions that prevent us from doing those same things. Even in terms of pure tecnique, it could be helpful. I can't demonstrate, for example, the kind of fellatio I like. But I can dig up some porn to use as an instructional tool. Even though I'm good with words it's difficult to convey subtle physical instructions verbally sometimes.

If you consider porn The Way Sex is Supposed to Be, then yeah, you're in trouble. And certainly you don't want to absorb any lessons about safe sex from porn. I've never understood why they use a condom, then rip it off at the end and jizz all over each other. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Thanks for the advice and encouragement, all.

I missed this thread. I was off practicing.

I learned everything from nature documentaries. Rutting season in the cmonkey house is a quick and business-like affair.

Protip: don't wait until the most desirable mate has reached estrus to begin presenting your rump for approval. Start a few days before to get in front of the queue.