The efficacy of torture is irrelevant. Torture (and capital punishment, I might add) is beneath a civilised society.

...and trying to convince the ethically crippled is like trying to teach frogs to fly.

Some of us (us in the openarm inclusive species sense) are just not capable of disentangling what they feel from what they believe, and arguing with those is just going to shorten your useful lifespan.

I was hoping everybody would comment "Torture doesn't work.", like they comment "." in tribute threads.

I know, and I did, but I couldn't be serious.

See, I'm with ya, but the truth is that torture does fucking work.

Unfortunately.

And you know, I won't get into any kinda discussion about it, except for making black black jokes, because it's IMPLICIT IN BEING HUMAN [/crazy yelling person caps] that one does not torture, and that those who do, and regimes who order their drones to do so, MUST BE [/crazy yelling person caps] evil.

I mean, duh. Move on to something with a bit of fucking nuance, and let the monkeyfolk shout their monkey slogans, fer fucksakes, is my policy....

I won't get into any kind of discussion about it, either, stavrosthewonderchicken, but torture doesn't work.

Unfortunately.

Well, we're both right (and wrong). Like a freshman philosophy professor tries to drill into his students' heads, if he's worth his wage: define your terms before you begin to discuss or dispute.

Depending on how you define 'works', in this case, you get different results.

Of course.

I'm just kidding around, really, colluding with you to frame an unwilling non-discussion here. I just hope I never get tortured.

For the sake of non-argument, though, I'd say "works" equals "yields useful intelligence."

Sure, fine.

What I meant was that I'm more than happy to have a discussion about ethics and language, when I'm up for it, but I won't waste my time disputing with those who make apologies for the fact of calculated, cruel, corporatized violence.

Right, I concur wholeheartedly.

On another note, I just heard someone report finding a document he was looking for in "a stack of piles."