MetaChat - Transit Strike

I'm going to become an amateur train operator. I've got the hat and the goggles and the gas mask and I've been working on the stereotypical Peanuts teacher voice for announcements "Wooomp woomp woooomp wooomp going chssstsstt expresss woommp Kings Highway wooompsssshhht."

I'm not going to go to work and fuck around the best I can at home.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 10:57

Do you also have the striped overalls?

I have a feeling their going to avert it at the last minute. They do this all the fucking time. They should've done this before the elections, then Bloomie would've fallen all over himself to make a deal.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:02

They better avert, because I have no backup plan. I can technically work from home, but my computer isn't fully set up, and my work laptop has not arrived yet. Plus I have fun plaaaans this weekend that I don't want to cancel.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 11:05

I'm gonna work at home. Or maybe "work at home". I haven't decided yet.

posted by gaspode 15 December | 11:06

That's a good point, jon. I don't want a strike because it's cold and stuff and I really appreciate the subway working, but I have to say I'm pretty sympathetic to the transit workers. I mean, they do way more for me on a day to day basis than the cops or firemen ever will. My token booth clerk waves to me whenever I come, and all the motormen and conductors take me where I need to go. Plus, as I learned from the Taking of Pelham 1-2-3, they will die for me.

posted by dame 15 December | 11:08

whenever I come *home*

posted by dame 15 December | 11:08

I live 30 blocks away from work. I'm sure they'll expect me to walk in, no matter what. Dammit. Well, at least it'll be quiet. Then I can "work at work."

(Although I think they'll avert, too.)

posted by papercake 15 December | 11:09

When will we know for sure what's going on? I guess it's just waking up tomorrow to see what happens, huh?

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 11:10

I'm the only one in my office who lives within walking distance. So I'll be here, but I won't do much work, since I'm waiting for my walking papers anyway. What do they expect?

As I may have mentioned before, that bunch of bum-ass bitches can suck my fuckin' asshole.

Also, during transit strikes, the 7-train doesn't ruin my sleep. Yeeehaw!

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 11:10

My positions pretty much the same as yours, dame. But most of all, I need to get to work, otherwise I don't eat. And it's too fucking cold to walk. During the blackout I walked from Hudson & Spring all the way to Ditmars Boulevard. It took me a couple hours. And that was in the summertime.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:13

You live close enough for me to ride my bike, Hugh. I'll come visit you & we can get drunk.

(Actually can we make another date for the 20th? It's my birthday and I'll be up there for lunch again.)

posted by dame 15 December | 11:14

Well, the deadline is midnight, but they'll probably stop the clock for a while to push a last minute deal, superhero. That's what happened last time. But otherwise, yeah, I guess we could just wake up to no trains.

By the way, I love how the city said we could take LIRR and Metro North trains within the city for only $4 each way. What a deal!

posted by dame 15 December | 11:17

I want a strike so I don't have to work tomorrow. Yay!

Also, I don't know much about it but my very liberal like minded friend says that they are treated very well and make great money. To quote her:

"I hope they all get fined $100,000"

I have to admit the slowdowns seem very intentional and are v. annoying.

posted by Lola_G 15 December | 11:18

The thing that sucks is that I don't really have any work to do, so I could take the day off, but what a stupid reason to waste a vacation day. Boooo. BOOOO. Come on, you bastards, negotiate.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 11:20

They do, Lola. But they have hard jobs, too, especially the people you don't see: the track workers and the shop workers and the cleaners. Also, part of it is standing up for new hires; demanding that new workers get the same pensions, etc. A lot of other unions sell out the not-yet-members, and I think going to the mat for people who are behind you is both rare and necessary.

I haven't noticed any slowdowns. But I haven't left the house today.

posted by dame 15 December | 11:23

Sadly, the nearest LIRR station to me is way the fuck out in Woodside. I'm screwed if there's a strike.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:26

Seriously, jonmc- what are us Astoria residents to do???

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 11:30

Well, a fellow teacher of Pips lives in Astoria and has a car, so she can get to work. But they work in the Bronx, and I work downtown.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:34

Believe me, Bushwick is screwed, too.

posted by dame 15 December | 11:44

Yeah, but you can work from home, right? I can't and my medical travails ate up all my sick/vacation time and then some. I wish I had some whiskey.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:48

Yeah. But what if I can't get to swimming?! What is eating compared to glorious glorious pool time?

posted by dame 15 December | 11:51

The thing about unions and organized labor is thatonce you believe that people have a right to good pay and good benefits and protections then the whole "they make a good wage" thing is revealed for the excuse that it really is. I said it yesterday and I'll say it today, a transit strike fucking sucks six kinds of pissbum ass, but I don't want to live in a world where unionism is a total failure, if you support one you support them all. Anyone who works for a boss is better off in a union, warts, strkies, inconveniences, corruption and all.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 11:51

Think about doing track work in a system that doesn't really stop for most maintenance. Being down on the tracks, in the tunnels where it's always colder than outside, in a place where trains are coming at you and your coworkers sometimes get hit. Look at those guys when they come out of the tunnel at the end of a shift, how weary they are. Look at their hands. How much would it take for you to go do their job?

That's one dirty, nasty, dangerous, hard job. Much harder than mine, and most of ours.

Trains slow down because there are men and women on foot in the tunnels; those men and women are your conductors' coworkers. Trains also slow down because patrons hold the doors, because patrons sometimes get sick, because sometimes crazies go, well, crazy and they have to call Transit Police to zip the plastic cuffs on and remove the problem.

It's a shitty job, and it's one I'd like to see filled by someone who wants to do it. And if it's bad enough that pay is the only incentive, then pay them enough.

I don't want my train derailing because all the competent workers quit to go work somewhere else.

That, and what jonmc said about the union looking after its own.

Barricades in the streets! Let's join the transit workers in a city-wide general strike, the first of many!

And on preview, what Divine_Wino said.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 11:56

The only thing that worries me about the transit union in particular... is that I fear they're gonna hold back technology advancement that could benefit the city as a whole. If having the trains run by computer makes them run faster and more reliably, I want that(!), but as the whole debate with the one conductor L train showed, in some ways the union is going to hold that back.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 11:56

D_W, you're talking to a former union organizer who got dragged into court and glass-cielinged for his trouble. You don't have to convince me that Unions have done and do a lot of good. And I hope the transit workers get what they want. But this:
if you support one you support them all... is worrisome. I don't ever believe in unilateral, unequivocal support of any organization. If a hypothetical union is corrupt or taking a bad position or whatever, I reserve my right to address that.

And as far as the wages go: as someone who's cleaned industrial ovens, pulled bundles of deacying yeast out of carts and into dumpsters and other equally pleasant things for his daily bread let me say this: the Transit Workers make good money, and they deserve it. But like it or not, when people hear about workers who make better money than they do going on strike, there's going to be resentment. Fact of life.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 11:59

I think you're barking up the wrong tree on technology, dude.

I don't want computers running the train. And that's my train. Computers are stupid. And when they ran the emergency test, the computer killed us all by letting smoke into the cars. Thanks, but I'll take two workers on the train.

I also want there to be token booth clerks in all my stations. You know what happened when they got rid of both the clerks at 18th Street? Some guy got shot, and the EMTs got to watch him bleed to death because no one had a Metrocard and there was no clerk to let them in.

Thanks, but I think the Transit Workers are on my side. And what Hugh and D_W said (though I was the one who made the point about the union hanging together, Hugh).

posted by dame 15 December | 12:02

But like it or not, when people hear about workers who make better money than they do going on strike, there's going to be resentment. Fact of life.

That sctually drives me nuts. Like triple crazy. People are so fucking dumb sometimes. Don't drag people down to your level; use it to agitate for your own advancement. Transit workers deserve a decent wage and good healthcare and a real pension. And so does everyone else. When you undermine your fellow workers, you just undercut yourself. And it makes me so angry to people so petty and shortsighted.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:05

Oh, jeez, I forgot. The other reason the computer trains thing sucked and would never work, pinksuperhero, is that trains already take forever to cycle through 8 Ave. during rush hour. Because there is no yard there, only two trains can be in the station at once, and the trains stack up at 6, Union Square, sometimes being slowed all they way back to where I live. And it's not because the workers aren't going as fast as they can. So the computerization wouldn't make all that much of a difference.

To make trains run closer together (on lines where it would work), they don't need computers anyway. They need to upgrade the signals and put in new sensors. As it is, they only know that a train is somewhere with X amount of track. Putting in new signals reduces X, and that's good. But i think the union isn't against that.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:09

when people hear about workers who make better money than they do going on strike, there's going to be resentment.

But, and I know this is a stretch, when they reflect on it and realize that those workers work much harder than they do under much more brutal conditions (I'm talking about all the office workers/support people who commute in and out of Manhattan), their resentment should ebb. I expect too much of my fellow fathead lazies, though, and most people are too self-absorbed (I just typoed "elf-absorbed") to appreciate that.

On preview, and on review, and on pulling the cinders outta my eyes and actually lookin' at the screen for once in my life, I'm sorry, dame, for the misattribution. And I'd love to descend from the tower for a birthday sit in the park.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 12:11

Your not wrong, dame, but my point still remains. And chastising people for what amounts to a normal human reaction dosen't do much good either, I'm afraid. PLus there's a new workforce of low level unskilled service industry employees (I speak as one) who are in even worse shape. And I can tell from experience in the trenches that getting things organized and agitating in that sphere is an incredibly uphill battle on a lot of fronts.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 12:12

Don't drag people down to your level; use it to agitate for your own advancement. Transit workers deserve a decent wage and good healthcare and a real pension. And so does everyone else.

This is what I meant when I said if you support one you support them all. I used to be in 32B-J, the doorman union, one of the cities most corrupt (at the time), they were paying the highest prices in the city for real estate for this huge union office, much of that was coming back in kickbacks to the union management, my dues, bullshit.

I support the right and need for people to unionize, not the daft notion that you toe the party line all the way. You know me homie and you know I fucking hate the party line.

And yes there is resentment, I fucking resent the fact that the strike is going to fuck my shit up, yet I am morally bound to support it. I contain multitudes of contradictions and I agree (sorry Dame) that resentment is natural.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:13

PS,
If I have to go to work I am stealing a horse.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:14

It's natural, but it doesn't mean you stop there. I mean, refusing to support other workers hurts you. So resent, sure, then move on and listen to your better self. What's right isn't easy: duh. I swear, more people's parents should have rammed that into their heads.

(Thanks, Hugh, and yay! Though we may have to sit inside if it's too too cold.)

posted by dame 15 December | 12:19

Ask MeCha:

How does one hotwire a horse?

also, what color bandanna should I wear as a mask?

I'm fairly certain that the best part of being a bandito, insurgent or dicator is that you get to shoot guns in the air and yell to celebrate as opposed to when I do it, which is to scare away clouds.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:19

If I have to go to work I'm stealing some horse tranquilizers.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 12:20

Man that horse is soooooooo relaxed, I want him to gallop but all he wants to do is watch cartoons and eat poundcake*.

*This is a really good thing to do whilst tranquilized.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:22

What's right isn't easy: duh.

But as a wise man once said: you can't eat truth.

also, what color bandanna should I wear as a mask?

the same color as the one sticking out of your left back pocket..

*ducks*

posted by jonmc 15 December | 12:22

But like it or not, when people hear about workers who make better money than they do going on strike, there's going to be resentment. Fact of life.

I'm one of them. And what someone said above about them working in dangerous conditions is true and I applaud them for that. And the thing Dame said about them standing up for the new hires getting the same deals they get, well bravo.

Call me "elf-absorbed," but it's just really hard to feel sympathetic for them when those things aren't being mentioned in the news or the media. All we hear is of the mystical disappearing and reappearing surplus, which to a lay person would make sense to give that money to the people and let it be done with.

Why do these things have to be so frickin' complicated?

posted by TrishaLynn 15 December | 12:25

Oh and: I'm going to be working from home. Yay for technology!

posted by TrishaLynn 15 December | 12:26

Well then maybe you should organize at your job so they don't screw you over by refusing to pay you or giving you crap sick leave. (When I had a corporate job, I had unlimited sick days. You know why? Because we had a union!) Demanding other people be similarly screwed is short-sighted and lame. And dude, I'm pretty sure we all wouldn't let you starve.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:26

Call me "elf-absorbed,"

OK, you're elf-absorbed, you perverted gnome-abusing dwarvophile!

Well then maybe you should organize at your job so they don't screw you over by refusing to pay you or giving you crap sick leave

I did. Back when you were picking out corsages for the prom. And it did nobody any good and caused me and a lot of other people nothing but grief. I don't mean to be harsh, but you can't tell me anything I don't know here.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 12:29

So the yellow one with the union jack and embossed mustaches, which means I like to top Stalin and Churchill and pee on them?

That's my fetish and I am proud. We're here, we pee on
world leaders, get used to it.

Call me "elf-absorbed," but it's just really hard to feel sympathetic for them when those things aren't being mentioned in the news or the media.

If I say this please don't think I'm trying to talk down to you, but don't make up your mind about things based on how they are portrayed in the news or the media. It actually kills your soul. Extract the facts and make up your own mind. And pee on Stalin.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:29

I did. Back when you were picking out corsages for the prom. And it did nobody any good and caused me and a lot of other people nothing but grief. I don't mean to be harsh, but you can't tell me anything I don't know here.

You don't need any of us to point out the dead ends and traps in that sentiment babes, suffice it so that we all have to do the best we can, according to our lights and live with ourselves 'till we are called to glory.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:31

suffice it so that we all have to do the best we can, according to our lights and live with ourselves 'till we are called to glory.

Y'know something, I've sadly come to the conclusion that there is no call to glory, at least not in this world. There's merely survival and whatever perks and moments of pleasure you can steal in the moments in between.

It's not nihilism. It's punctured idealism. But ultimately, like the man said: it's all about Pussy And Money (or in some cases, power and ego). I used to think different, and I wish I still could, but I can't.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 12:36

I tried once and it didn't work so now I want everyone to be a miserable as me wah wah wah. The lady garment workers got the shit kicked out of them by hired thugs and sent to Roosevelt Island over and over and over. And they didn't give up, did they? They didn't say, "Suck it losers. I worked fifteen hours a day and you can too!"

Doing the right thing is really hard. And you have to do it over and over and over and it sucks big fat donkey cock and you might never succeed. But you do it over and over anyway, because that is what keeps you from being a fetid waste of humanity.

Look, I don't love today's unions. I think they have bad organizing strategies and that they lost a lot by selling our generations out and lots of other lame shit. And I don't always do the hard right thing either. (Just to get that out of the way.) But I don't choose to rationalize and accept the bad things I or anyone else does. And just falling into resentment and letting that undermine your fellow citizens is bad and wrong and not okay. No matter what.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:36

Dear Dr. Ruth:

Every time I try to pee on Stalin, I end up peeing on myself. While I find this unsettling, my elderly neighbors are quite excited by it and constantly invite me over for "silver showers."

Please advise.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 12:38

There's merely survival and whatever perks and moments of pleasure you can steal in the moments in between.

Call me a loony but that is actually what comforts me.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:38

On postview: Have fun being a fetid waste of humanity, then.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:38

No offense, dame, but are you doing anything for all the struggling workers besides flapping your gums of MeFi and MeCha? There's something to be said for putting your money where your mouth is.

That's not even meant as a personal attack. Just an expression of exasperation with the universe. As Lou Reed said "I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag, with Latin written on it that says 'It's hard to give a shit these days.'"

Have fun being a fetid waste of humanity, then.

Isn't that what we all are, ultimately? Corpses-in-training? Pre-processing worm food? And everything else is just to try and convince ourselves other wise?

posted by jonmc 15 December | 12:42

When you're a kid, you want happiness; when you're an adult, you want satisfaction. Ain't no loss of ideals, just a different goal.

Now where is Dr. Ruth, damnit?

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 12:45

Dame,
Take it easy, it's just pointless to advocate for egalitarianism and universal sufferage and common goodness and then fling out these ugly barbs in such a judgemental tone. It makes you seem like you take the position you do because it makes your morally unimpeachable and you enjoy turning your scorn on others. Everyone, especially jon, is complicated and conflicted, most people are not "wastes of humanity" even if you don't agree with how they got to their view of the world and it's frankly boring and disruptive to say that they are.

Dr Ruth is one of the nicest quasi-celebrities I have ever met. I watched her eat a footlong hotdog at BEA in chicago and it was, frankly, the thing that convinved me that the twentieth century was worth it.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:47

I just way overused the word frankly, which means I am a fucking dumbass. Always listen to dumbasses.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 12:48

Yea, but then you tied it up with a hot dog story, so it all made sense (get it? "Frank"ly? Hot Dog? yuk yuk yuk!)

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 12:50

Well, for one, I'm trying to uphold the community standard of not screwing over other people, and i'm beginning where I have the most effect, with people I know. I explained to TrishaLynn why the transit workers deserrve what they had, and though it's small, everything is small. If everyone who supported the workers got two people who were on the edge to see their side, then it would make a difference.

I do other stuff to in accord with my view of how change happens, but it's one of the few things I couldn't bear to have mocked, so I'm afraid you'll just have to let me not talk about it. Sorry.

Isn't that what we all are, ultimately? Corpses-in-training? Pre-processing worm food? And everything else is just to try and convince ourselves other wise?

No. Just because you'll die someday doesn't mean that what you do here doesn't matter, and it doesn't mean that you don't have effects beyond what you know and beyond what you see. C'mon.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:51

Wino, I'm not upset. I'm passionate about this, but that is because yeah, if you give up on trying to improve shit, then you are a waste. And your parents probably failed you too. So much awful shit goes down because smart people who ought to know better give in and stop trying. So mcuh of our culture is based around making it okay not to try. And jon, more than anyone else I've ever known, seems to spend the majority of his time justifying the worst in humanity. And really, it makes dislike him so badly. And I hate that. Because otherwise, I kinda like him, you know?

But giving in makes you a bad person, just like being a Republican does. And however dogmatic and inflexible that makes me, it's still better than giving in.

posted by dame 15 December | 12:58

Well, if you know the good doctor, get her over here to help me out of my predicament.

- Yuri N.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 12:58

It's how you present, not what you present. You are giving in by being dismissive and insulting.

I will take myself out of this now, because I do not like my mediator mode that much. I do like you both and see the value in each of you and that doesn't make me a better person, but it sure as fuck makes me want a large glass of something strong.

Who wants eggnog? I make it Brooklyn style, with Mr Bostons tequila and a hint, just a dash, of OE.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:02

Peace sells, but who's buying?

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 13:03

People who have no guns.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:05

it doesn't mean that you don't have effects beyond what you know and beyond what you see. C'mon.

Sounds like someone needs some time inside the Total Perspective Vortex. We're a bunch of pubic hairs in the toilet bowl of life, waiting to be flushed. It's hubris of the worst kind to think that my, or yours or almost anyone's existence means jack shit in the grand scheme of things. If I got hit by a bus this afternoon, most people who've had any contact with me might feel bad for a bit, but the world will go on in much the same fashion, ultimately, and that's true of 99.99999% of the human race. Of the remainder, half are saints, the other assholes.

And however dogmatic and inflexible that makes me, it's still better than giving in.

Being dogmatic and inflexible means you're part of the problem, sorry. I'll never let ideology subsume my humanity.

And jon, more than anyone else I've ever known, seems to spend the majority of his time justifying the worst in humanity.

Because the worst of humanity (and the best, too) is in all of us. If we acknowledge and accept that, we can stop being judgemental and making condeming proclamations and the whole discussion can come back down to earth and maybe be productive.

Wino: you pour yourself a glass, and give me the punchbowl.

Hugh: exactamundo, carminootch. You can try to save the world, but what if the world dosen't want saving? It's beginning to look that way to me.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:05

Honestly, Wino, fuck you.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:05

No, jon, you have the fucked up perspective. I don't think it's a question of making some grand, world-changing gesture or giving up altogether. That's so much bullshit.

And it isn't a question of ideology. But by now I should realize that nothing makes a dent in your fucking wall of apathy and rationalization anyway. I'm sorry I bothered at all.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:09

Compliments pass when the quality meet.

I've never been anything but civil and respectful to you and you know you can't overawe or shock me with your badass attitude so fizz and fuck away all you want kiddo. If you can't mind your fucking manners dame then enjoy the rush because it's all you are gonna get.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:12

You weren't being civil. You took what I thought was a friendly, if vociferous, conversation into an opportunity to chastise me. I was proceeding under the theory that we were all freinds and could argue without licking each others' asses or being clucked at for failing to.

I'm not trying to overawe you. That is really the last thing I would every consider.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:15

My "silver showers" demand recognition!

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 13:16

But by now I should realize that nothing makes a dent in your fucking wall of apathy and rationalization anyway.

Hey, wino, how about for Christmas, we buy her an economy sized clue?

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:16

Why don't you explain what I'm missing mister smartypants? I'm certainly not apathatic. If you would like to make the point that I am stubborn and find your arguments unconvincing, well, get in line. Because you're totally the first person to ever make that point.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:19

There is a difference between apathy and withdrawal in disgust.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:20

And there is a thin line between activism and merely being a royal pain in the ass.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:21

I explained to TrishaLynn why the transit workers deserve what they had...

Dame: I like what you have to say, but please don't use me as an example ever again.

If I say this please don't think I'm trying to talk down to you, but don't make up your mind about things based on how they are portrayed in the news or the media.

Wino: First off, I'm not offended. I know that Truth (the capital letter kind) is subjective, especially in matters like this. I took a journalism class here and there and I know the importance of first-hand sources. But not everyone has the time to read through the documentation to find out what's really going on. That's what the news media is supposed to be for: to provide a fair, balanced and unbiased version of current events in a way that is digestible to the populace as a whole. For those of us who don't possess degrees in legalese and union negotiating, we need to rely on other sources of information, whether it be trusted friends-in-the-know, various news outlets or the man on the street. I don't choose to let the media run my life, but in a situation like this, I do choose to let it keep me informed.

posted by TrishaLynn 15 December | 13:22

I don't see what your problem is TrishaLynn. Is what I said incorrect? Did I phrase it badly? If so, I apologize. But I think you did say that I told you some things you didn't hear from the media, no?

And jon, no there isn't really. Except that maybe withdrawing in disgust is more pathetic.

And way to respond to my actual critique, Wino.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:28

Dagnabitt Dame,

YOU JUST SPENT THE WHOLE THREAD CHASTISING JON, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I took offense to your tone and since I agree with you, I said something about it and I was civil. You chastize and frankly insult people all the time dame, cool, but don't expect a fucking break for it. I've never licked an ass in a coversational context and if you don't get that then too bad, just aim the firehose of bile somewhere else, it's lame. And yes, fuck me for saying it or whatever. If you are gonna serve then be prepared for someone to hit the ball back.

I'm not trying to overawe you.

Perhaps I should have said you will not be able to make your point by force of insults or anger, rather than overawe.

jon
Sadly I agree with dame on this subject, not you, I just don't feel any particular need to say it the way she says it.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:28

I actually agree when it comes to the strike, too, Wino, I'm just pointing out some surrounding issues and caveats.

And if anyone sounds pathetic here, it's her: "The world dosen't work the way I like! Waah! Humanity dosen't live up to my exalted specifications! How dare they!" Very spoiled child.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:31

And way to respond to my actual critique, Wino.

Honestly, Wino, fuck you.

That critique?

I'm lost on that one, critique of who or what, which? The overlap is bad in here. Pistols at dawn? Fine.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:32

I was under the impression that my tone when talking to jon was (a) my and jon's business and (b) not under the same rules as my tone regarding others: we fight all the time.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:34

Hugh, I'll recognize your "silver showers." I'll give you a half-chuckle for the funny and a smile and a nod at your valiant attempts to de-rail (no pun intended) this thread.

posted by papercake 15 December | 13:37

Yeah jon, how dare I expect more of people than the absolute worst. What scum I am. If that makes me your enemy, then I will take great pride in that.

It's the overlap, Wino. You did respond, while I was typing that. As to the anger, it isn't a tactic. It just is. But we don't have relationship where we insult one another, so I took that extra personally. Because I don't insult you.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:38

Dame my dearest akushla,
I didn't insult you, if you felt insulted I'm sorry for that. I took issue with something said in public, a) Because it was needlessly harsh and b) because it was counter-productive, there are sports metaphors here that I would use about teams and so on, but I'll spare all of us.

I have a deep and abiding respect and affection for both you and jon and we all have things that stick in our craw, shall we leave it at that?

My love to all.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:41

Sure, Wino. But I just assume that everyone ignores jon and I now. I sure do.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:43

And way to respond to my actual critique, Wino.

And you responded to mine (namely pointing out that well paid workers strinking is going to cause resentment from other workers, and that it might be wise for the first group of workers to realize that and develop a atrategy for dealing with it), by blithely dismissing it. Mainly because it came from me. And that pisses me off. You don't wanna hear me, well, then maybe I'm just a little tired of hearing you.

No, dame hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst, and it's probably ill-advised to scold like an angry church lady when we don't live up to your expectations. Because, ultimately it's not our function to please you.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 13:46

Now if I ignored either of you, THAT would be an insult.

I'm a foul mouthed drunken know-it-all asshole, with very little respect for anything other than people that I like. It's probably my best feature.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 13:48

When I was a kid, my brother and I would sometimes pester each other, "Is not! Is too! Uh uh! Ah hah! No! Yes!" and we wouldn't really care what we were talking about. My dad would sit still for a bunch of it, then finally say, in a disgusted voice that shamed the both of us, "Stop this constant bickering. It just poisons the air."

The first time I saw The Professional was in this tiny-screened, forty-seat theater off Dupont Circle in DC, and there was this homeless guy who must've payed the $4 to get in, and halfway through the previews, he shit his pants. It made it pretty rough to watch the movie.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 13:48

But I think you did say that I told you some things you didn't hear from the media, no?

That you did. But the way you phrased that paragraph made it seem like you and you alone were responsible for me seeing things differently, when it was actually a combination of what you and Wino were saying.

I also work with Jonmc and he's a friend and I'd rather not be linked into any beef, turkey or chicken you have with him. My name should be invoked for good things, damnit! ^_^

posted by TrishaLynn 15 December | 13:50

Let's bring this thread back to what it's really about: ME and how cold and miserable I will be without mass transit if they strike. I love the subway, I nearly cried getting off today... "Goodbye for almost the last time, my love", I whispered to the 5 train.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 13:58

by blithely dismissing it. Mainly because it came from me. And that pisses me off. You don't wanna hear me, well, then maybe I'm just a little tired of hearing you.

Sweetie, you *never* listened to me. It took me a while to realize it. But you never did. And yeah, when you costantly justify the worst in humanity, then the eight thousandth time is gonna have little effect.

it's probably ill-advised to scold like an angry church lady when we don't live up to your expectations. Because, ultimately it's not our function to please you.

Having high expectations of people is the best gift you can give them, even if they hate you for it at the time.

And Trisha, fair enough. But it was the most obvious example of something changing from typing. I'll try to remember in the future, but i'll probably fail. So here's a pre-apology for the second time: sorry.

posted by dame 15 December | 13:59

Superhero, remember to caress the pole fondly this evening. But it may be averted yet.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:00

Oh, I will, believe me. I might also wail- I've found that being loud and crazy tends to make other people get out of my way.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 14:02

Having high expectations of people is the best gift you can give them, even if they hate you for it at the time.

Just who put you in charge of what to expect of us, or anyone? What right do you have to expect anything?

News flash: The World Does Not Owe You A Damn Thing. Most people realize this relatively early.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 14:02

Uh, the world owes me a hand job. And five dollars worth of popcorn.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 14:23

thepinksuperhero: I didn't know you were a fellow 5-trainer. Yay!

And just because I can't leave anything the hell alone:

I personally subscribe to the philosophy of trying to leave the world a better place. Just because I don't think I'm doing a damn of difference in the greater scheme of things doesn't mean I shouldn't try. And we really just need to worry about ourselves in that aspect, and not care if everyone else in the world are doing better or worse than us.

I think.

That was directed to the ether in general.

on preview: well damn, Hugh. I guess I'll remember the popcorn next time.

posted by gaspode 15 December | 14:24

I have the right to demand anything I like merely by virtue of existence. You can call it entitlement, but you'll never get anything if you don't ask for it and act like you deserve it. I know that's all antithetical to your blue-collar way, but it's true. If there's anything I learned at all my fancy schools, it's that you don't get what you don't demand. And people rise to what's demanded of them. Just being forced to share the world with them gives me the right.

Also, you never responded to my point about you not listening. Maybe you weren't paying attention.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:25

gaspode: I take the NW to 59th St, and then transfer to the downtown express, so 4 or 5, whichever comes first. I do enjoy the 456 line.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 December | 14:27

I think you're pretty right, 'pode. But there's gotta be a place to expect better of others that's to one side of me in this thread but isn't as far as expecting nothing.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:27

Wow, that's impressive. I really dislike IRT trains because they are so narrow and therefore are always more crowded.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:30

I have the right to demand anything I like merely by virtue of existence.

OK, I exist. I demand that Rachel Ray give me a blowjob and make me breakfast. I demand that the world tell me I'm a genius. I demand a first edition Action Comics #1. I demeand that everybody like eachother. I have a right to demand it, perhaps, but do I have a right to get all pissy if it dosen't happen?

All demanding things does is increase the number of demands in the world by exactly one.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 14:32

You are both right, you are both wrong. If anyone calls me a post-modern moral relativist because of this statement I am going to administer immediate fist bukakke.

I just went to the bank and listened to Hasidic reggae on the way and the entire 9 minute version of freebird in the line. It was awesome.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 14:38

Yeah, dame. I mean I pretty much agree with most of the stuff you're saying. It's just if I want other people to rise, I think it's incumbent on me to help them. And it's my problem if they don't, cos it's my issue.

posted by gaspode 15 December | 14:38

Dude, you're an idiot. Having high expectations of other people is nothing like demanding stupid shit. Gee, I wonder where I got the idea you don't listen. I'm not wasting my time on you anymore.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:39

Nothing so much fun as watching idealists collide with an imperfect world full of imperfect beings.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 14:40

And yes, you will waste your time on me dame, because despite it all, I'm the only one here who's neither too afraid nor too infatuated to tell you shit you don't want to hear.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 14:42

and FWIW, I don't hold my worldview just for the hell of it. It's as much a product of my pstchology and my experiences as yours.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 14:43

You're much better than I 'podee.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:45

because despite it all, I'm the only one here who's neither too afraid nor too infatuated to tell you shit you don't want to hear.

wow, I'm gonna drop out of this thread now, because until now I've never felt actively pissed off at one of your comments, jon.

posted by gaspode 15 December | 14:46

Yeah Jon
Gimme a break bro, that's just fucking silly you don't need to insult everyone else in an attempt to insult dame. I don't see any pussies or sychophants around here.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 14:51

Hey, I put a whole lot of shit nobody wanted to hear in this thread. And Dr. Ruth is still holding out on me on the "silver showers" issue.

Actually, I haven't been arguing much here because I've been too busy choosing my fights.

And I'm a lousy tennis player.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 14:52

Get over yourself, you useless prick. You aren't some "straight-talking dude" who's really getting me with his brilliant argumentation. You don't even put forth an argument besides "my life sucks because I didn't do shit with it, but that makes me right because I'm totally keepin' it real." Oh and I guess there's "ha ha I can't actually argue so I'm gonna say your frustration with my inability to listen to people [and I am so not the only one to notice this, I'm just the only one who says it] is just because you don't know your idealism sucks." You know, I've had my idealism frustated and done the whole "I'm gonna give up" bullshit. But then I grew up and kept trying.

Maybe if people had expected better from you years ago, you wouldn't be so convinced of the uselessness of the world now.

posted by dame 15 December | 14:53

This kind of reminds me of how my co-worker gags me out of my cubicle every day with the perfume up with which she covers her drinking.

(That there circumlocution was me peeing on Churchill -- Stalin's next).

I used to have an opinion on this strike thing (plus I wanted to balance what I knew with what others know; that's why I talk to Republicans, too. They may be wrong, but I'm better for listening), but since I wasn't heavy-handed with it, I've been marginalized into a nattering peanut gallery.

Flex away, bodybuilders. There's plenty more baby oil.

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 15:03

hugh,
silver showers was great, really.

posted by Divine_Wino 15 December | 15:04

OK, that comment of mine was over the line. Apologies and retractions.

But I'm a bit tired of your moralism. That you expect everybody to choose sides based on strict right and wrong. It would be nice if they were, but they're not, so persuasion and acknowledgement of people's slights and peeves matter.

And whether conciously or not, you do dismiss and condescend to me, an awful lot. What you see as nihilism is just me acknowledging that the world dosen't operate according to my wishes and maybe that I should learn to accept I can't change certain things. What you see as "rationalizing the worst [whatever]" is just me trying to understand and maybe show some feeling for people different from me. I'm a little tired of having that dismissed and sneered at.

posted by jonmc 15 December | 15:12

Hugh, I still think you ought to send her a bottle of this.

posted by Frisbee Girl 15 December | 15:34

I just showed that to one of my fellow sufferers, who laughed 'til tears were in his eyes, then said, "That's not funny."

posted by Hugh Janus 15 December | 15:55

*takes bow*

posted by Frisbee Girl 15 December | 16:02

15 December 2005