I don't know what the total prison term for such an act would draw (as a good prosecutor would count each day), and really I don't care. I am disabled and the state would have to eat my medical expenses.

My son however is in fighting trim to take on the world.

There is no way that I would have learned as much surfing the internet all day as I did in my (very good) public school. Also, my social skills would be garbage, I wouldn't have developed the self-discipline to handle the obligations of higher learning or a career, and I'd probably have been a fat kid from sitting on my ass all day.

Teachers loved me. Seriously, like actually loved me- several confessed to me that I reminded them of their high school sweethearts or current wives. How could I have deprived them of that pleasure?

Homeschooling doesn't really exist in NL. So I know only the preconceptions that US movies and tv refer to.
NL is a very densely populated rather secular country so I probably have no conception of the intellectual and social asphyxiation one can experience in some non-coastal areas of the US.

That sounds creepy, TPS.

I have friends who have homeschooled their kids up until last year, when their son was in 7th and their daughter in 6th. The boy hates it and isn't doing well, and the daughter loves it. They haven't been homeschooling for religious reasons, but for the freedom to let the kids explore and keep things kind of loose.

My two who are the same ages have been in public school since kindergarten. I'm treating it more like a social thing, although they've been successful with grades, friends, and learning to negotiate with teachers and administrators when the occasional problems do arise. For instance, my son brought brought home a C in art his first quarter. It was his lowest grade. Even as his mom, I have to say objectively that he's talented. So I gave him the options of asking his teacher what was up or having me contact the teacher to ask. I encouraged him to address it on his own first, which he did. Turns out he'd forgotten to put his name on a fairly big project. Came home the next day telling me he had an upper B after all and he's been accepted into the Art Studio class next year. He had the application filled out in pen before I ever saw it (I think he did better than I've even done on any artist statement I've ever attempted) and put his portfolio together without any help from me (and I'm a painter who's gotten to participate in several local art shows).

Thing is, I'm pretty sure all 4 of the kids could pass a GED test today as the parents have all been interested and encouraged lots of outside activities, but being able to talk to authority figures with manners and confidence is a valuable skill, so I'm glad to have the platform for that outside of the home. We also have a great library, a university in town that hosts events for school-aged children, community gardens, extensive bike trails, a varied international community, etc, etc.

Heck, I grew up miserable in a little whitebread town with no real outside influence. I was an only child at a Catholic school AND a teacher's kid, so I was shunned pretty actively by my peers. I think I might have been better off just getting my GED and heading out, but that wasn't a viable option for me.

I'm certainly not saying one is better than the other in terms of homeschool or public school. I think it really depends on the child and the community. We all learn the lessons life gives us, no matter what the context.

Thanks for letting me ramble. This is something I think about often, as my children's needs may change over the next few years.

I think Jesse was 13 when he took his first practice GED and he passed easily. After that, neither of us were that worried about it. Now, using the subject as a basis for an argument (on any given day) is a different story.

I'm just now reading that MetaFilter thread and it's making my blood boil.

My father has been a teacher for as long as I've been alive, and he's damned good at it. I also grew up with his colleagues as family friends, and not just "that asshole math teacher," so my perspective is colored by that. The things other teachers are saying in that thread ring so true to me.

I now work at a university on the staff. I used to work with students and now I work with faculty and other staff and some grad students. From what I can see, the same problems exist at all levels of US education. I just happen to live in a lucky place for my family, and I'm grateful every day.

Following through from that thread, the shaded portion is taxes collected. It's not accurate as I had to hand draw it, but I think I have a better method to try tomorrow. The problem is showing the top 3% paying the same amount (graph area) as the bottom 97%. Basically, the chunk taken out of the orange should equal the areas of the others combined.

Another hard to show detail is that households that made between $100,000 and $250,000 got creamed, while those making between $1 million and $2 million got off light. One clear point, households that made less than $100,000 paid next to nothing in the overall scheme. Claiming the poor and the middle class are supporting the rich is clearly a false statement. Conversely, for those supporting increased taxes, all that color is available for the taking. Just draw your own curve.

≡ Click to see image ≡

I would have adored being homeschooled -- I liked learning, but I hated navigating the harsh world of other kids and school rules. I coped with the other kids by trying to never call attention to myself (not always possible, especially when you can't play sports well), and with the school structure by being one of those good kids teachers looove so they would be more likely to let me get away with doing what I wanted.

That sounds creepy, TPS.

At the time it seemed perfectly normal- in English class, it was the big joke, he'd say it front of the whole class and we'd all laugh. Only in retrospect does it seem creepy that my senior English teacher was telling me I reminded me of his wife and that he'd marry me next.

TPS, that is hilarious and a little creepy. As I grew older teachers were neutral or annoyed with me. I wasn't particularly focused as I should have been my senior year.

I'm aiming a lot higher than the GED for my kid.
And it's scary to think of what would happen to society without the public schools.

JanetLand I'm with you. I would have been very happy pursuing my own interests. I was a free spirit and found it hard to fit in the one size fits all mode.

I would probably have liked homeschooling, but it would have brought out the introverted side of my too much, and also been suffocating. I spent a lot of time going backpacking, camping, and to summer programs in order to be sure I could learn from and be with people other than my family and my near associates. Had I not even had daily school to expand my world, I'm not sure how good my (still needing honing) social skills would have been. Another thing I really appreciated about attending school, especially in the part of the world I did, was the diversity. I was close with people from a wide variety of exonomic, religious, and ethnic and racial backgrounds and it seemed completely normal to me. My school and town were about 50% black and it is only as an adult that I've learned that most kids don't get meaningful, consistent education that includes a lot of black history, literature, music, etc.

School is a structured environment and the methodologies commonly used are outdated and, we know, far from perfect. I still believe that at its heart, formal schooling for children is a good idea. MAny of the objections I hear from homeschooling parents about formal school are, I think, rooted in the fundamental difficulty of seeing their child be treated as part of a group instead of being the sole focus of attention. It's a fine line to talk about, because good instruction is individualized and the needs of a group need to be balanced with the needs of each kid. But I think it's difficult for parents to see the different approaches leaders and teachers take when you have more than one or two kids to get organized. There is a lot of skill and training involved in doing this thoughtfully and well, and yet because the management strategies are so different from those that a parent can use 1:1 with children, they often strike some parents as heartless, machinelike, insensitive, or indifferent. Usually those feelings are not in place at all - usually, what the adults are doing is balancing and prioritizing the needs of the individuals, the group, the schedule, the content, and the learning goals and maximizing everyone's opportunity for the best outcome. In real life that means any one kid can't be the central focus all the time, have to accept that their desires of the moment may not rule the day, have to share, take turns, be patient, choose to cooperate, etc. When kids don't readily develop or maintain those skills for whatever reason, even in a great school, their experience will be a difficult one.

There are still really bad instructional situations where it's all about following directions and keeping order and learning is minimal, and good educators completely agree those are bad situations - fewer kids will do as well in them and fewer kids will report enjoying school and being happy. But even when we're talking about only the really good schools, I think for at least some percentage of homeschooling families, there can be an initial repulsion at the idea of their kid as just one of a larger group, not seeming as special and free as they do when on their own, and that might help fuel the pulling out.

That's not the case for everyone. Homeschooling is not necessarily a bad decision, and when done well there are some amazing benefits in that kids may develop the ability to relate well and un-neurotically to people of all ages and backgrounds, and have less of an internal fear of non-conformity and more resistance to mob mentality. In the right hands they can also achieve amazing academic results and develop really serious interests and skills that take them beyond what they can get in a classroom situation that aims for raising the center rather than the fringes. But I do feel that few families have the wherewithal to deliver a truly excellent education, and also that it is of extreme importance that kids get a structured program of study, get plenty of time outside the house and family with a wide variety of other people, and be part of group settings where they can do the hard work of learning to get along with others.

Here's the kind of thing that's on the GED. I'm surprised to see how many questions are truly reading comprehension questions instead of knowledge-application questions.

Homeschooling couldn't have worked for me (even if it had existed in the 60s and 70s for people of my class - which it didn't), because my parents didn't care if I could read and write or if I was a genius. As far as they were concerned, I was a waste of space.

That said, school was a pretty miserable experience for me. I left both school and home at the earliest opportunity, within a day of each other.

Based on the kids I've seen, the biggest factor seems to be adult (parents, teachers, family, village, etc.) involvement and investment and concern and that kind of stuff. I think there's far more variance within groups (i.e., within public-school students, or within homeschool students) than there is between the two groups.

I might be wrong.

Also, and how did I forget, congratulations to son-of-Ardiril!

That's a good observation, box. There are a lot of variables that can make or break an education, in or out of school.

"I think there's far more variance within groups (i.e., within public-school students, or within homeschool students) than there is between the two groups."

I suspect so, too. Overall though, the average homeschooler would probably cream two average highschoolers on Teen Jeopardy.

I also have a very strong suspicion that a highly networked elite exists among the christian homeschooled that would now span a generation. Like my son, these kids grew up on the internet, they know html and css like we understood multiplication tables, and they consider texting or email before using the phone.

Anyway, anyone have any ideas how to make education politics-proof?

I would have loved homeschooling especially after grade school*, but I wonder if I would have been more or less fucked up socially. Hard to say. And I could have passed the GED when I was 11 or 12 (fifth grade). They had to designate my testing level at 12+ ( 12th grade) because that was the highest they could designate (there wasn't the option to say I was reading, etc. at college level, which I was).

*My only problem was math which I was good at until junior high. I had a teacher who told my mum that he didn't have time to help me or any other students - it was sink or swim. He was the worst of the bunch in both junior and senior high school. Most of my other teachers were fairly helpful with one or two really good teachers.

More on subject: charging fees for public schooling?! I/my mum didn't have to pay for anything except meals on field trips or clothing for choir. I didn't even have to pay for driver's ed. The thought that families like mine, perpetually broke, having to pay for regular school items is nauseating.

Once again, the rich get to go to college because they can afford the the pre-req classes and the working poor get fucked over.

As someone disaffected by college, some of the 'socialization' arguments in favor of formal schooling remind me of the 'socialization' arguments in favor of college--just titanic overkill, if socialization is the point. years and years of socialization embedded in some other activity is hardly the most efficient way.

That said I do think good k-12 education was one of the best things my parents gave to me so there's that. I think I'd only home-school if I could afford the resources, tutors etc.. to provide a better-than-group-schooling environment

and congrats to your son.

My home-schooled son graduated from high school today. That whole socialization argument about homeschoolers is a lot of hoohah. My son can carry on a conversation with anyone of any age, pretty much any time. Most public school teenagers I know won't speak to grown-ups or little kids at all. They spend all their time with their own age group.

My son belongs to the youth group at church, goes to summer camp just like 'normal' kids & hangs out with his public school friends after school and on weekends like everyone else.

Just to see how he would do, we asked Son to take the exit test that public-scoolers take in our state. He passed with flying colors.

I would not have minded being home schooled, but not by my parents.

Congrats to your son, but I'd never consider homeschooling my kid.

Every homeschooled kid I've known, from every background, has been incredibly socially maladjusted. We had one family in town whose mother wrote a well-received book on the amazing results of homeschooling, specifically how awesome her own kids ended up. "G. is an articulate young woman who speaks with ease about topics X and Y, treating adults as her peers," crowed a local newspaper article.

Really? Because I could have sworn that she was the kid who bitched me out in a profane 15-minute rant because while I kindly gave her and my brother a ride downtown, I wasn't changing lanes in the manner to which she was accustomed.

"Okay," you say, "but there are plenty of other activities in which my kid can get socialization. Like church! Or youth orchestra!" Ah, yes -- where another homeschooled kid had to wear gloves to eat pizza, and his mother accompanied him to camp.

Sure, there are plenty of kids who CAN get by without the socialization of formalized schooling, public or private. I have no doubt that I could have passed my GED in, say, sixth grade. I got a 30 on my ACTs at the age of 13. I HATED most of school, and I went to one of the best public schools in the state.

But if you don't get exposure to all of the awful shit that goes down in school, with the diversity of abilities, behaviors and backgrounds around you, how in the world can you expect to interact with all of the people you'll encounter every day? Those assholes who make your life hell today will still be out there ten years down the road.

Obviously, there are many things wrong with the school systems in America (and elsewhere). Bullying and cliquishness are huge problems; more importantly, the powers that be seem to think that educators (who apparently bear responsibility for all of the crap that goes down in this country) deserve to be punished for their work by doing way more with way less. And no, I am absolutely not saying that people should just buck up and deal with things. Not every kid has parents or self-strength to advocate for themselves enough to end a tough situation.

But by taking this as a common experience, we can -- and, in fact, must -- keep fighting the good fight. It's like people who say they'll move to Canada because of the political climate: sure, you might feel a bit better in one way or another, but how will that make the system you left any better?

I say this from the experience of both public and private schools, teachers who encouraged me and teachers who ignored me, and a completely useless senior year. Whatever. It was my responsibility, and that of my family, to take advantage of any and all opportunities in front of me, and to some degree I let them slip out of my grasp. On the other hand, I find myself much more well adjusted than I might have imagined, able to parse out the difficulties I've faced because of the things that I've gone through. I'm better off for it.

how in the world can you expect to interact with all of the people you'll encounter every day?

By doing it. What you describe is what I call the socialization myth. The phrase "common experience" makes me cringe. In fact, you give the recipe for internalizing the herd instinct that I despise about this country. Reading your comment, I immediately pictured the movie scene for "Another Brick In The Wall", the kids falling into the meat grinder. Yours is one of the conservative attitudes from which we wanted to shield our son. We wanted him to learn when to decide that society has fucked something up and to find other resources to serve his needs.

*shrug* To each his or her own.

Ardiril, you and I have argued about something similar to this before, and you've used exactly this metaphor. As you're clearly well off the mark with your assessment of me, feel free to imagine that I am well off the mark about you.

I do have to laugh at someone calling me and my ideas "conservative." I come from a family that also tried to shield me from certain attitudes. The end result is that many of my family members can do a lot of talking but not a lot of doing. I'm proud of both my bleeding heart beliefs and the fights I've had to have in order to have them taken seriously by some people.

We probably both want the same thing for our kids, regardless of how we get there. Still, there's no way of teaching your kid when society has "fucked up" without indoctrinating your kid in whatever beliefs you believe are the fucked up parts. I might agree or disagree with you, but it makes no difference. Them's the breaks.