If you believe that wasn't the way you should have been treated, then you're definitely a feminist!

Tonight I went to a resident council meeting at my apartment, so this just happened tonight.

I am a computer technician. Well, specifically a Technical Service Assistant.

Any time I state this or an opinion about computer stuff in front of most guys, they look totally surprised and then try to tell me the right way to do things. Wanted to say, "Look, dude, I know you're a shade tree mechanic, and I would never presume to tell you about cars." That's because I don't know that much about cars. I know to put gas in, change the oil, jump a battery, and check fluids. The guy I'm talking about doesn't know BIOS from his butt.

When my mom was buying her second car (trading the first one in), she took Dad and I along, mostly so she could see who would talk to her and not my dad. She was the one buying the car, after all. I was about 14 and learned that lesson well.

One particular area where I can reliably observe this is in music shops. I've played guitar since I was 14, and since I was 14 I have had this experience: enter a music store with boyfriend, male friend, brother, father, whoever. Stroll around and look at stuff. Invariably, if a clerk approaches, they will approach the man. If they don't directly approach, they kind of watch the man as the potential customer (and in fact, the girlfriend/woman as a potential kind of 'spoiler,' who might interfere with a spontaneous guitar purchase with some pragmatic shit about bills money blah blah blah). So I usually get to enjoy the moment of surprise when it's me who takes down an instrument off the wall and starts whaling on it - you can see the perspective shifting under their feet.

I'm the more aggressive of the two of us: the one who negotiates prices and asks pointed questions about a contract, the one who will follow up on a deal or with questions, the one who usually brought her checkbook or cash and is prepared to make a deal now.

If the salesperson doesn't pick up on that fast, I'm going to do business elsewhere. But sometimes the sexism appears after you've made the deal.

For our wedding, we rented a Grange Hall, and I was the person who dealt with the manager: I got room measurements and noted down info, I arranged to have chairs delivered, I emailed him and spoke with him on the phone, I arranged the insurance, he sent the contracts to me (though The Fella and I both signed), I paid (by check, with my name and only my name on it). I handled all the money, I handled all the business.

When the manager returned our deposit, he made it out to my husband and addressed it to my husband. It was THE ONLY contact he'd had with my husband beyond a friendly wave and a handshake.

you can see the perspective shifting under their feet.

I get to see this happen in a small way when we dine out, though it's a gendered assumption (of the sort that perpetuates a sexist social system) rather than straight-up economic sexism.

The Fella has been a vegetarian for 20 years. I eat meat once in a while. He won't drink even one beer if he's driving; I don't drive, so I'll order a drink.

So, every so often I place an order for a beer and a burger, and he places an order for a diet soda and a vegetarian quesadilla (or whatever). The same server who took the order will return and put the beer in front of him and the diet soda in front of me, and we'll switch 'em, and the server will say "Oops, sorry."

The same server will return and put the burger in front of The Fella and the [salad/quesadilla/veggie plate] in front of me.

Every. Single. Time.

Evidently, meat is for men. Beer is for men. Even if you saw me order it.

oh! That happens to me too, Elsa. Not with the meat thing, but quite often I will order beer and my husband will order wine. Invariably the server will give me the wine.

Last Friday, I stayed home from work to meet with a boiler repair dude to fix our heat. As we were walking across the basement to the boiler, I told him the things we already tried. "We checked the circuit breaker and the pilot light. Because the previous owners had left one lying around, we replaced the thermocouple." Him: "Your husband replaced the thermocouple?" Me: (stuttering from the insult and unable to recover quickly) "Yes. Well, no, we both did."

I was the one that had 1. found the things to troubleshoot on the internet, 2. decided what things to try, 3. removed the boiler cover and laid down on the floor to check the pilot, 4. turned off the pilot so we could replace the thermocouple. Technically my husband was the one to do the actual replacement because he has longer arms than I do and I couldn't reach, but then he didn't know how to turn the pilot back on so I did that too.

WTF.

I'm not sure the restaurant examples are implicit sexism so much as incompetent service staff. As a server, it's your job to know who gets what before you get it to the table, or to the fire the ticket with seat numbers so the food runners don't have to auction it tableside. But it's true that 95% of the time the veggie plate goes to the woman at the table, and 90% of the time the glass of wine is hers, too.

If you could see it in action, BitterOldPunk, you'd see this is very clearly gendered, and reflects the assumption that the big burly bearded Fella wouldn't order the dinky little vegetarian entree or the diet soda.

If we both order vegetarian, or we both order beer, or we both order (different) non-alcoholic drinks, our orders are delivered correctly. If we order as I described above, he gets a burger. Every time.

When the manager returned our deposit, he made it out to my husband and addressed it to my husband.

Could that be because it's generally assumed a man will not change his name after marriage, and he was sparing the two of you the trouble of having a check made out to an old name?

That would be a charitable interpretation of the act, TPS, but I don't think it applies here, since I'm the one who wrote and requested the deposit after the marriage, and I signed the request with my full name and provided him with the full name and mailing address. He'd had so little contact with The Fella that I suspect he had to dig out the contract to confirm his name...

... which he then put on the check. Of MY MONEY.

And of course, in our case it didn't matter --- his money, my money, whatever. But try to imagine this playing out the other way:

A male-female couple arranges a contract with a vendor. The male half of the couple handles ALL the business: correspondence, scheduling, insurance, everything, including payment. The female partner smiles and waves, has no other contact with the vendor.

After completion of the contract, the male writes to confirm that everything's settled and requests the deposit, providing his name and address for it to be sent.

The vendor sends the deposit payable to the woman, ignoring the clear request made by the paying customer.

Unlikely to the point of incredulity. But when it happened the other way around, everyone who hears the story comes up with a reason (and yours is the most reasonable, by far) why they think it might have happened other than sexism.

Sure it's gendered. Is it sexist? I'm not sure. Assuming that because you're a woman you can't fix a car or a furnace or conduct a transaction: sexist. Assuming that you ordered the salad and he had the burger? I don't think that's sexist. I really don't. I waited tables for more than a decade and I served thousands upon thousands of people. I can count on one hand the number of times the guy got the salad and the woman got the burger. It's a gender-based assumption, but reading it as sexism seems, well, aren't you now making assumptions about the server?

It shouldn't happen anyway, with a properly trained waitstaff.

Sure it's gendered. Is it sexist? I'm not sure.

That's why I said:

I get to see this happen in a small way when we dine out, though it's a gendered assumption (of the sort that perpetuates a sexist social system) rather than straight-up economic sexism.

We can debate whether a heavily gendered view of appropriate foodstuffs contributes to a sexist worldview (I certainly think it does, but I'm open to hearing other opinions) but I think we agree on the basics here.

TPS, I hope I didn't sound cross at your possible explanation, which would make good sense if I hadn't been so very clear with the vendor. I AM cross, but not with you --- with the vendor. (Yes, still! When the check arrived, I handed it over to The Fella with the sharp exclamation, "WELL! We're never getting married THERE again!" And we never have.)

I'm heading out, so my sudden shutting up is only me being away from my desk.

I definitely think Elsa's stories are evidence of sexism, in that sexist thinking and cultural training is what underlies the snap judgement, or the reflex action, involved in making the assumption. Certainly, it's not egalitarian thinking that underlies it, or the waiter would just approach with a "so whose is the burger?" and the check would be addressed properly.

If you missed this thread, many more such stories. Sexism isn't dead - it's sometimes more subtle and its consequences enjoy more regulation in law, but it's not dead.

I hear you Elsa- I shopped for a car, filled out the application, SIGNED IT, and made all the subsequent visits to the dealership, except the last one, to pick up the car which had been sent over from another location. When my husband got there to pick up the delivery they took his license, and added all his information to the contract, which was then made in HIS name, "so he could sign for it". The car has been paid off for 3 years and I'm still mad about it.

Whenever I order a scotch, the bartender/waiter will always give it to the BF.

Trying to think of really sexist experiences was kinda hard though - and I'm very grateful for that. I was able to come up with only one:

When I bought my last car, the salesman asked me repeatedly if I wanted to have my dad/brother/boyfirend/male friend come in for the negotiations and contract signing. I repeatedly told him no and ended up getting my car at the price I wanted to pay for it.

I used to fix industrial tools and it would routinely surprise men to find out that I actually worked in the lab instead of just in the office. Surprisingly, I don't remember ever encountering any blatant sexism in that field.

I'm not only a feminist, but something of a bitch. So I call people on this stuff when it happens. I must radiate some kind of scary aura now, because it has been a long time since anyone acted like this.

Having said that, the examples in this thread look like plain pure sexism to me. The offensiveness gets more obvious if you imagine these scenarios with people who are white and black.

One of my high school jobs was at a Christmas tree farm. During the hiring process you were not asked what you wanted to do - the boys were just routed into cutting and carrying Christmas trees, for which they got hourly wage plus tips. Some really big tips. Their job title was "woodsman." The girls were routed into serving cocoa and handing out apples, and their job title was "wood nymph." Wood nymphs did not get tips. My brother and I worked there the same season; when we worked the same days, he routinely brought home $100-160 cash, while I brought home my 7.5 hours' minimum wage pay.

My SO drinks beer, I don't. I generally order cider if we are out and, when the drinks arrive, I get the beer and she gets the cider. Every. Single. Time. Even if the person bringing the drinks took our order. I don't see this as sexist in itself, but more of a symptom of a sexist attitude - it's certainly true that the vast majority of times the drink order would be placed correctly but, if you truly treat people equally, you'll ask if you don't know.

The car thing is something that we have experienced enough times that, for anything that involves getting work done on a car, I do it. We have tested this out a couple of times by both of us taking the car to the same place (her first) a few days apart. Not only does she get treated differently, but the quoted price each time has been vastly different. The only exception we've seen to this was recently, when we needed to get a part for the suspension of one of our cars, where she went in to the shop and the (male) person who served her noticeably treated her properly and even gave her a tip to make it easier for when she installs the part. Unfortunately, this is by far the exception, even now.

I've been addressed as MRS. Brujita for most of the dealings with my condo issues. The Mrs.' in my family with my last name are my mother and my aunt. I am Ms.

I was having a coffee today at an inside table in a cafe. I was sitting facing the windows, but I was reading so I wasn't paying much attention. After about 20min. I looked up and noticed that a man had sat down at an outside table by the windows, sitting looking into the cafe (which is odd, because most people sit so they can see the view of the hills the other way), and then I noticed he seemed to be staring in my general direction, had his legs spread, and was running his hand back and forth across his crotch.

CHARMING, let me tell you. I felt gross, moved to a seat out of his sight line, saw him crane his neck way around to see where I was, and then he got up and left.

I felt dirty. I still feel dirty. I'm sure he doesn't give a fuck, or else feels great about making me feel like shit. I hate that he was acting like a cretin and I'm the one who feels shameful about it. I hate this fucking shit.

I have a friend who likes umbrella drinks, and orders them at bars with his girlfriend, who drinks beer and whiskey. Not only do bartenders, male and female alike, always do the switcheroo, they usually talk a little shit to him when the drinks are corrected, like, "Are you a girl, drinking that girly drink?"

He usually says, "Why do you ask? Is it adulterated? Did you try to slip my girlfriend a mickey?"

Which usually pisses the bartender off (a bit like talking about bombs in an airport) but fuck them if they're gonna ridicule a guy for ordering what he wants.

Sure, there's a lot of subtext about how men only feel insulted at being called women because they see women as weak, and since the insult is aimed at the group in power it doesn't cause actual harm or fear the way insults flung at women can; all this may be true in varying degrees but when it comes down to my friend's case it doesn't diminish the fact that he is routinely bullied because he likes fruity drinks with elaborate garnishes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making this into one of those Yeah but the real victim is the guy! lines of bullshit. Obviously these assumptions and the routine disrespect they engender cause a lot more daily harm to women than men. It's a good example of sexism hurting everybody, though.

It is a nasty, petty world we live in, and most people spend their entire lives making it worse.

they usually talk a little shit to him when the drinks are corrected, like, "Are you a girl, drinking that girly drink?"

Yeesh, I HATE that. That kind of not-joking joke is just a way to police gender expectations. Over the years, I've started reacting pretty strongly to it... by saying YES HELL YES YES YES YES.

When the guy at the hardware store intimated (first laughingly to me and then a little less laughingly to my partner) that I might be a lesbian because I had selected and was paying for tools and plaster, I said "Sure. So? Why do you care?" And then I told them to cancel the purchase, because I'd be spending my money elsewhere. I know a nice little hardware store where they don't try to police my gender conformity or condescend to me; I buy everything there now.

Also, what hardware store employee is dumb enough to think that household tasks are somehow either manly or butch, rather than simple necessary? Who has a small enough worldview to think that "competent woman" = "lesbian" and vice versa? This kind of weird cloudy thinking makes me CRAZY.

I used to own a business, and encountered a fair amount of sexism. Now I work in IT, and sexism, and now ageism, are not uncommon. As far as I'm concerned, if you believe that equality of rights should not be denied or abridged on account of sex, you're welcome to call yourself a feminist.

Young women that I meet assume that they will be paid fairly, run for office, get into medical school and be capable humans according to whatever gifts they possess. Despite encountering sexism fairly often, I call this progress.

And the guys in my office who routinely assign technical tasks to male staff, share technical training with male staff, and are not quite comfortable with a woman in a leadership role, should get a clue.

There was a very disquieting thing at my work. We had a drafter, Bill, who was great, and who sort of developed his job to be more than a drafter; a project manager who had minor building projects completed. He retired, and a very personable woman named Allie was hired. She did not fare well. While she was really good at Auto-Cad (better then Bill was), she, in two years, could not really get the hang of project management, nor could she really integrate herself in the mostly male construction culture we have here.

I started out sort of buds with her, but gradually I withdrew, in that I got frustrated by her lack of competence, her lack of knowing her areas of incompetence, and her thin skin. I would opt to call Bill about something rather than run it by Allie, and Bill was actually hired on a piece-work basis to oversee some projects which Allie could not handle.

(There are plenty of guys around here with thin skin also. . they do not do very well either.)

Recently, her job was eliminated. While I am not privy to reasons why, and while budget cuts necessitated five positions be eliminated, I am of the opinion that her not being able to "make it" with us was a contributing factor.

It still troubles me. I sometimes think that I should have taken her under my wing more in order to help her navigate some of the politics here. But I have not idea whether that would have helped her to thrive here more or not.

I also do not know whether her gender caused the organization to give her more slack, or less. But I know that her gender DID change how she was viewed.