I took a 2 month time out from friendship with someone who broke up with me after she realised that the LDR wasn't her thing. We're going to talk again on Friday (my 30th birthday). I've met a lot of my milestones: Dated enough to remember I'm pretty suave, thought about the good and let myself think about the bad, a few crazy adventures here and there, planned a sweet 30th birthday surrounded by friends (which I've never done before), etc...

I'm also sure I'll be back to Square One with my feelings for her when we start talking again.

She was seeing someone before (seemed convenient and lukewarm) and really makes a nice case about how great our friendship was before and how we should be able to talk about anything. Been thinking about the causes and effects of the friendzone. I can read her pretty well, and I know I'm not in the friendzone. There's some chemistry left there. There's probably an AskMe in that somewhere... Wanna phrase it for me so it doesn't end up being one of those soap opera/life story relationship filter questions?

If she says you're in the friendzone, then you're in the friendzone.

What does LDR mean?

LDR = Long Distance Relationship

The friendzone sucks, even from a female perspective. Was reminded how firmly I am in it last week and it just sucks. Still too chicken and too busy to find someone new.

But, I would still rather be his friend than go back to not speaking to him at all, and that's something I have to get used to. Maybe the same goes for you, too.

≡ Click to see image ≡

skwirl, I'm inclined to agree with seanyboy. If she says friendzone...I think you are in the friendzone. At least...I don't think you'd be well off to act otherwise.

It's funny, this friendzone thing. I was reading something, or watching something (sadly, I am foggy on what it was) in which a character stated plainly that MEN AND WOMEN CANNOT REALLY BE FRIENDS and whatever it was...I do recall it was something that I was inclined to heed.

Now, in my life, I've had tons of female friends. I've been frustratingly relegated to "I only like you as a friend" status more times than I'd like to recall. I am inclined to believe that men and women can be friends, but have found it frustrating enough at times, that...well maybe on some level I wish some of these pundits are right, and it's not possible. That somehow, it means that some of these women that I've thought of as friends do actually hold some romantic promise.

In the end, though, I doubt it. I am not a fan of black and white pronouncements of what men and woman ARE, or CAN BE. The shades of gray that are possible in humans? How can it be that simple?

Maybe it's the prospect of being a single guy again after 16 years just scares me into wishing it were simpler. I wasn't good at this stuff when I was a kid, and somehow I doubt 14 years of marriage have honed my skills.

Anyway...rambling has now set in. Skwirl, I really suspect that if she says friends...you had are better of going into things expecting FRIENDS. (mind you I may have NO idea what I'm talking about...)

My two cents:

If you want to be friends, you're going to have to ignore the chemistry. Just because it's there doesn't mean something HAS to be done about it.

And I know that paying attention to the chemistry is, well, fun. Chemistry feels good. But in this situation, thinking about it is like worrying a sore tooth with your tongue.

Let it alone, be her friend. Fake it a little if you have to. Eventually things will calm down. And yeah, if she says you're in the friendzone, then you're in the friendzone, even if there is said chemistry.

On preview, absolutely yes: men and women can be friends. But if there has ever been chemistry, it takes some time for it to go completely platonic.

Eideteker, that's awesome. Zone of PAIN.

That graph is pretty good. The awkwardness overlaps made me chuckle. I'm not sure I get the meaning behind "null set" though.

I think it means nobody is that perfect, richat.

Ahhhh. Gotcha.

The honorable (and non-creepy) thing to do, in any situation, is to assume that people who care about you are telling you the truth, rather than trying to divine what they "really mean" or "really feel."

That sort of divination (which no one is as good at as they think they are, including me) is the flipside of "If you really loved me, you'd know why I was upset right now!", which is obviously unfair to both parties. Don't set up any sort of dynamic, platonic or romantic, where mind-reading is an integral part of the relationship.

She says she just wants to be friends, so assume she just wants to be friends.

If you find she's *lying* about that, then she's trying to manipulate you, and you can decide at that point whether to continue any sort of relationship with her. Personally, I'm not a fan of relationships where lying is an integral part of the dynamic, either.

You should, however, also be honest about and protective of yourself. Do you want to be friends, or something more? What kind of subjects can you handle talking about with her -- it sounds like she wants to talk about relationships and such; is that going to be ok with you, or be painful? It's totally ok, and appropriate, to let her know that you want to be friends but you need to put certain subjects off-limits, either just for now or for indefinitely.

If *you* say "Yes, let's be friends and talk about everything!" but don't really mean it, then *you* are trying to manipulate her, and lying to friends or potential girlfriends is not particularly honorable, either.

This comment came out more lecture-y than intended; I don't get the impression that you're in any of these particular categories at this point, I just wanted to try to cover all bases.

(Also, I can have chemistry with all sorts of people and not want to date them. Because I am a flirt. Chemistry, on my part at least, is not any sort of reliable indicator of who I'm actually *interested* in, just more a function of who's open and up for riffing. I'm smart enough to know that "fun to flirt with" and "want to spend the rest of my life, or at least a large chunk thereof, with" are not totally overlapping categories.)

richat: The whole "men and women can't be friends without being sexually attracted to each other" thing was a major conceit of When Harry Met Sally.

It sounds like your wishes and her wishes do not line up. In my experience, neither of you will change, and, with respect to Eidteker's graph, the Zone of Pain, for you, could reach far up the Mental Attractiveness line, and you could persistently be in said zone.

If you do not want to live there, perhaps it's best to have no contact.

It sounds like your wishes and her wishes do not line up.

That's pretty much it. That friendzone graphic is pretty much a rationalization of the reality that not everyone is romantically attracted to you. The rest of it is claptrap. And the 'null set' reflects the cynical idea that no one can be maximally attractive to you both mentally and physically.

((((Skwirl))))

The graphic is a joke, Miko.

Miko's just posting that because she's lonely in the Null Set.

I thought the graphic was pretty accurate, except that for me, the "Awkwardness" zones are friggin' enormous.

Don't set up any sort of dynamic, platonic or romantic, where mind-reading is an integral part of the relationship.

This idea was a big breakthrough for me, and it's part of what made me a happier person.

My two cents are the same as Specklet's.

The graphic is a joke, Miko.

Yeah, I'm aware of that (not an idiot department). But it has serious intent, and I've seen it trotted out many times on AskMe as part of an attempt at a serious answer.

But back to the question: I'm sorry to hear about this. And I don't think you're in any friend zone, I think you're in a zone where this person is simply ambivalent about you and has sent some mixed messages. You needed a timeout. Seems to me that if you want to give her another go, you should ask her what has changed? How does she see relationship potential with you at this point? If it still has to be an LDR, what will she do, and what will the two of you, do to maintain the relationship despite the distance? Has she reflected on the place you have in her life? Is she ready to be more seriously involved? Would you be able to be friends with her without suffering because you wish it were more? What, exactly would you want, and be getting out of, a renewed relationship with her?

If she isn't talking about getting back together, and that's what you would want rather than a friendship, then don't feel bad about discontinuing your communications. Life's too short to bother with people around whom you feel badly. As you noted, you have a lot of good things going on, and a life of your own. Your friend may miss you and may have enjoyed talking to you 'about anything,' but it seems as though the feelings are still unequal. Her emphasis on the 'talking' sounds like she's interested in a 'just friends' arrangement. That's fine, if you can actually be just friends with her. But trying to be friends with someone you really lust after/long for is a hard road to walk and you end up feeling like a chump. So if you can't quell your feelings for her, you may feel a lot saner and happier just letting this fish go. She can find other friends to talk to.

Thanks peeps. TPS and Specklet had the most helpful stuff. I'm mostly the one invoking the friendzone idea here. For what it's worth, I know the friendzone like the back of my hand and this does not feel the same at all, which is why it's so hard. The standard "believe what people tell you about themselves," advise basically tells me: 1) she's been very confused/stressed 2) she still misses her (impossible) exmarriage 2) she's not ready for anything serious, 3) someone moving would make it serious 4) long distance isn't as comforting as seeing someone who's local even when they're not as good of a match. That's all an accurate paraphrase. Circumstance. She's been honorable and honest through all of it and I know that's not just letting me down easy.

So, where I'm at is knowing that my feelings haven't changed since we last talked, knowing I have more tools in my toolbox to cope (OK Cupid, for instance) and not knowing if her circumstances have changed at all. I'm also tired of living in Portland and dealing with the unemployment here anyways and most of my strong job leads would bring me closer to where she lives, so I have rational and irrational reasoning in that part of my Universe.

I'm divided about setting boundaries on what we can talk about. My experience in setting boundaries on what is safe to talk about causes worse consequences and more distance than just dealing with the jealousy outright. A friend gave me the true-feeling advice that it's not wanting-to-girltalk that proves you're in the friendzone. It's the act of girltalk that trains one into the friendzone. Does that make sense? I discovered that I have a friendzone and the main difference for me is when I learn TMI before thinking of someone in a more-than-friendly way.

But yeah, hard to translate over the interwebs. It just feels like there's more here. On the other hand, that's the case for every sap who posts an unrequited love filter.

1) she's been very confused/stressed 2) she still misses her (impossible) exmarriage 2) she's not ready for anything serious, 3) someone moving would make it serious 4) long distance isn't as comforting as seeing someone who's local even when they're not as good of a match.

So, following occhiblu's excellent advice, assume all this is 100% true. Does that make this a good friendship prospect, in your estimation?

It still sounds like you're hoping a relationship is going to work out. It still sounds like that's not what she's thinking. Do you have an idea how you're going to talk about that?

Thanks Miko. That's about the gist of it. Really, I could handle friendship if and only if I could shake the chump feeling. Is it really a foregone thing?

For instance, one thing that was so wonderful and is now so hard was that she read some of my writings (NaNoWriMo fiction) from when I really believed I was a chump and was never going to be more than a Nice Guy. And she liked it. A lot. She saw my most vulnerable side and it brought us closer as lovers. What an amazing thing. And now I'm fighting hard to not feel like a chump again, but it's mostly my pattern recognition in my own head.

I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'm in a better place than I was two months ago and I don't know where she's at (which is more likely to be better as well). So trying to be friends again might be more doable.

I guess my other big dilemma is, I've put my cards on the table. I wanted a couple months to take them back. Now I don't know how close to keep them to me. Having another metatalk about our relationship would feel like giving them back, but if there's ever a chance for more-than-friends (and yeah, that's my huge hope, of course) somebody's gotta show their hand again. Alternately, there's the whole school of thought that uncertainty breeds limerent feelings and keeping my cards close might not only be safest for me, but catalyzing for her.

Run.

But it has serious intent

O RLY? How did you know what my intent was?

Alternately, there's the whole school of thought that uncertainty breeds limerent feelings and keeping my cards close might not only be safest for me, but catalyzing for her.

I recommend avoiding that school of thought.

And if you can think of it not as "showing your hand" but "communicating honestly," I think that might help you figure out how to proceed.

We met at a leadership conference where I was asked to be a peer mentor/assistant facilitator. (A big piece of my role was to socialize, bridge the grey area between trainers/trainees because I had the same job title as the trainees, but more experience). Open communication is a big part of that shared culture, as is active listening and peer-to-peer mentoring. I still say there's something to be said for mystery. I've also been burned when I was stupid and tried to set boundaries for things that were okay in theory but I didn't want to hear/talk about them. dumb.

An alternate moving forward plan would be to say, "we can talk about anything, but there are some things I can't be an objective listener about. If you want someone to listen about Mr. X, I'll probably be saying, 'that's too bad you can't talk to Mr. X about it but, hey, I know a dude named Skwirl I could set you up with who is way talk-to-able.' "

I guess I'm asking: When we start talking as friends again, how do I walk the line between over-communicating and shutting down entirely. (Feels like fight or flight.) Assuming, yeah, I'd like to be friends for the good (to be friends) and the bad (to see if there's more) reasons.

The regular puppy love traps aren't much of a concern for me, in as much that, 1) I can handle the emo ups and downs in the short term. 2) Yeah, datingwise I have blinders on, but that's okay for the short term, too. Tested the waters. Was comforting but otherwise kinda meh.

Also, I am confident that she would rate me high on the mental attractiveness and physical attractiveness scales. And I am rarely confident about that kinda stuff. :P

Also, also... I just don't know what to say when there's inevitably a day where I'm bummed about it all and she inevitably picks up on it and asks, "why are you sad?"

Re: my earlier advice, by odd coincidence A Softer World had this to say:

Man, I was thinking about unrequited love. I figure it's best to just walk that shit off. Find someone else to be excited about. It's like if you love ice cream but your ice cream man friend won't give you any. Maybe he's got a good reason. It cuts into profits. Who knows? But he likes you as a friend and wants to hang out anyway. It just drives you crazy to hang out with that dude, even if he's being reasonable from his point of view. So don't hang out with him. What, you ONLY like ice cream? It's ice cream or nothing? Don't be an asshole. Learn to love donuts.

How did you know what my intent was?

I don't know your intent, Eideteker - unless you drew that diagram, I'm talking about the larger meme. No offense meant, but people take the 'friend zone' stuff for truth all the time, and I tend to think it's pretty bad advice in most instances.

Skwirl, I think as long as you love mystery, you'll find yourself in the painful situation of torturing yourself with possibilities. You can make a connection like this with other women. Unless she wants to be with you as a romantic partner, why waste your time on someone who can't make you their first priority, especially while you're young and hot and doing well in creative and personal pursuits? You'll have to ask yourself whether you love the drama, emotion, and mystery more than you'd love a real relationship with someone like her. Some people would say they do, and in that case, definitely drag this out while you eat your heart out. But if you love the idea of a mutually rewarding relationship more, be honest about what you want and how it would be hard for you to be friends without having a small part of you (don't say which part) always hoping for more.

I read recently: To argue with a lover is to drink the ocean with a spoon.

That's neither here nor there.

We do live in a disposable culture. Heck, 50% of marriages are disposable. It makes sense to walk away from a friendship where there is intentional harm or gross neglect, but true friendship connections are rare in my experience of the world. My view is biased by introversion and a past of social anxiety, but it's still my experience and my truth.

If the fault is within myself and I can spare the resources, maybe my path is to find peace with this. The plenty-of-fish path hasn't felt right so far, not true to my nature -- tho it's true I could give it a fairer shake -- but if there's plenty of fish, there's plenty of time for that later.

Anyhoos, thanks for the sounding board. It probably sounds like I wasn't listening but I have some questions to move forward with my IRL confidantes.

"Has she reflected on the place she has in your life?"

That's a good piece of language. Thanks for that.