Used to. My close group of friends in Austin (we were three couples) was like that. I'd been very good friends with J. & T. before they entered their couplehoods. (T. & I grew up together.) But as we got older, and after I returned from a year in Boston, they started acting this way. I still considered them my best friends, but I think they had moved on and weren't really willing to invest past what they themselves wanted to do.

A couple years later, it became very clear to me that it had happened when I was back there visiting after moving out here. I called up T. to ask if she wanted to go to dinner or something. Her response was, "You know, the world doesn't stop when you visit."

So that was the end of that.

Yeah, unfortunately, I happen to be one of those people. I generally only like to socialize in my own home, or in the home of a specific handful of carefully selected friends. I am an introverted homebody, and although I love the company of my friends, it is generally only on my terms. I am so grateful that they are so accomodating of me, that I try to offset the frequent visits to my home with good food, booze, good company, etc.
I try to be a good friend, I am ready to lend an ear or a shoulder or a hand when necessary. Do not, however, ask me to go out on a Friday night to someplace brand new that is filled with people who I do not know. My friendship only extends so far. Luckily, I have friends who are willing to overlook my turtle-like tendencies.

I'm kinda like this, but mostly it's cause I have really weird hours and tics about places/crowds. I think a lot of my freelancer friends are the same way, so we're all only seeing each other on the askee's terms.


Which kinda works out.

I know people in town here who don't necessarily do this, but they interact with me only when they want something. They make lip-service to real friendship, but it's always an after-thought on the heels of them demanding something of me first.

I dunno - I'm pretty introverted, too. I don't like that I feel obligated to hang out with them today because I might not hear from them or see them for two weeks. And I know it'll be like, we go over tonight to "watch the hockey game", and then when we get there they'll be playing Rock Band and we'll end up just sitting around playing video games or talking, which is nice, but after awhile I'd rather be knitting...

OK now I'm just whining :)

Wow, mudpuppie. I'm always surprised to hear how assy people can be. It shouldn't surprise me anymore but it does.

Would 'pussy-whipped' be a variant of this?

What msali said.

No, but I see people like this all the time. People get advised to become friends like that on askme and other advice sites. It's kind of a passive aggressive way to control things, which is sometimes acceptable and sometimes not. I put up with it if the benefit outweighs the cost, but honesty is huge for me.

msali type is the exception, and she is gracious and polite and honest about it being her needs being met, so totally allowable there.

No friends, no problems!

I usually hang out on other people's terms, because my terms are like, hey, you wanna hang around and read a book while I play guitar, or vice versa, or maybe we both could read books, or maybe take a walk down to the river and throw rocks?

Hanging out on other people's terms is why I've watched so much shitty television programs, including, well, just about every television program I've ever seen. They may make me laugh sometimes, but almost all TV shows are one of several grades of shitty.

Also, most of my friends make drinking and smoking pot a big part of hanging out. Just recently I stopped enjoying those activities anymore, so it seems like I'm avoiding my friends. I'm too peer-directed to refuse at least one beer or toke, so I've taken to just not hanging around. Which makes me a bad friend, I know, but I'm done racking myself with guilt over not living up to expectations others have of me, even if they're expectations I've set myself. I'd rather have no friends at all than be a self-loathing drunk or a self-pitying stoner, which seem to be all I get out of those activities anymore.

What I've lost in pleasure I've gained in perspective. Anyone want to sit around and read books, maybe listen to some records? We could go to Greenpoint and grocery shop, grill up some hanger steaks and zucchini.

So I guess WKRP or Barney MIller are out? Ah, well. To each his own. (And excuse me, Mr. Perspective, but I believe it was always YOU who brought over a little something-something, along with your own personal sixpack or two. You may not believe it, but we'd like ya just as much if you were swilling Pepsi as Bud. You might still have to watch M*A*S*H, though. ; )

Like I said, they're expectations I set myself. But I'm not gonna feel guilt over trying to change, I'm self-destructive enough as it is. I like my friends more than I like their televisions. Someday soon I'll be able to be around intoxicants, but for the moment, if I don't stop getting fucked up I might as well be dead. I mean that in a good way. Optimistically.

I love you two and I don't mean for my feelings to hurt yours. I just have a lot of habits that are killing me, and I want to live, you know? Big hugs to you both, I'll see you soon, and we'll all have fun together. You know, I really do mean it when I tell you how happy I am that you're my friends, and I really do appreciate your welcoming home and even all the TV shows Jon puts me through.

I'm just having trouble reconciling my alienation from the outside world with my alienation from my own inside world. Strange things are afoot at the Circle Hugh.

Well, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, HJ, truly. You do what's good for you. I certainly want you to live, after all (melodramatic much? : ). But yeah, some of those comments of yours did sting a bit, like all we're about is "shitty TV" and beer (which is strange, since Jon, as you know, has one of the largest and most ecclectic book and music, and, granted, porn, collections of anyone I know, and as someone with one Master's degree and most of a second, I'm not exactly trailer trash either, my love of Twinkies not withstanding. Anyway, I guess I shouldn't be so touchy. I'm sure Jon wouldn't be. I think I'm just tired and worn out at the end of the school year myself.

I really should learn to log out and not post when I'm in a crappy mood. I was in a crappy mood yesterday and now it's spread!

Anyway, the update is that we did watch the game, I drank a lot of girly sugary drinks to lift my mood, had a great time hanging out and playing with their newish puppy (which by the light of a rational day seems to explain why they're hesitant to hang out anywhere else recently, as it's not 100% house trained yet), and left when I started to feel worn out. So overall I have nothing to whine about.

The funny thing is, Pips, I was combining all my friends into one big ball of activity, and not thinking specifically of you guys' taste in bad tv or smoking pot (like I said, I know that's my deal).

But seriously, I can't drink without puking, and I can't smoke without wanting to give up on everything. I'm having a rough time of it, and I'm sorry I seem to be lashing out. I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing me, though it doesn't come off that way.

I had a once-in-a-lifetime conversation with my brother last week, and I don't feel alone in the world. Which is a shitty thing to say to friends, because a reasonable reaction is Well Hugh, what are we, chopped liver? Of course you're not alone in the world, you have friends and I realize I've hurt them but it's neither intentional nor is it really about them, and I'm so cued up to feeling guilt that I feel like I've betrayed them by opening up. I've been trying hard to find the will and the energy to be more self-determined, but it's hard going and I make mistakes.

I didn't mean to imply that you to aren't anything but the best of friends -- you are two people whom I love and respect to a great degree. You're really awesome individuals, and you're a remarkably fun couple to be around. I've done a poor job here and I regret my earlier tone.

And also implying that we aren't intellectual peers was so far from my intention that I just don't know what to say. I know you guys are super smart and erudite and knowledgeable and all that, hell, you're both more of all of those things than I am; you'll just have to trust that I wasn't saying that about you.

Really, I was writing, poking fun at how lame I feel, and how confusing and alienating it is to have a relatively clear head after all this time. Or maybe that wasn't what I was writing, but it's how I feel. Like shit with wings.

Don't worry about it, HJ... Thanks for your kind words. I do tend to think everything's about me. I guess we just miss ya. I understand, though, and I'm glad you're laying off the "life-aids," so to speak. Hell, I'm so screwy sometimes myself I can't do much but sleep and watch TV. I, and I know Jon, of course, only wish you well. Maybe sometime pver the summer we can all go see a Cyclones game or go to a concert or something.

That sounds like fun, Pips, I'm really glad you understand and I miss you guys too. At the same time as I feel like a lot of things suck right now, I feel like my adult life is just starting to open up with possibilities, so it's as promising a process as it is painful. More promising, actually. Thanks for being my friend, you're a good one and I'm a better man for knowing you.

Oh, and muddgirl, are you kidding? You're the greatest. You just helped me say something I have a lot of difficulty communicating, even to myself, to a couple of my best friends ever. You're an angel.

Hmm. Everybody will kinda only hang out with you on their terms, right? It's just a question of, like, how onerous those terms are.

I guess that I don't really hang out with anyone very often (other than Mrs. Octo) anymore. Our social life tends to involve more structured stuff like neighborhood parties or church activities or sports events. If we do go out with other couples it usually involves a weeks worth of planning and emails back an forth to arrange things.

Our own terms. Like me--I don't want to go to any of those chain restaurants that have been involved in lawsuits alleging discrimination. I'll accompany somebody to a Walmart, and not buy anything, and muse about global capitalism, but I'm not really anticipating setting foot in a Denny's or Waffle Hut or Cracker Barrel or someplace. I mostly encounter those places when traveling with people, anyway, and restaurants like that are always next to other restaurants, so there's usually a more appealing option. Yeah, I'm missing out, yep.