I know that I wouldn't feel the same way if the deceived were a 35-45 year old man.

I dunno if that's the right test. Instead, what if you just switched Ashley Biden's gender and imagined it that way? Twenty-something child of a VP befriended and betrayed because of their father's status.

I think that you are thinking too much. More often than not, when someone plays the "that's sexist" card, they are bringing their own baggage into it. (There is a lot of discussion here about that, and I do not include anyone here in that over-generalization I just made above.)

But just feel what you feel. And let Jan kick your ass if you are off base.

Instead, what if you just switched Ashley Biden's gender and imagined it that way?

OK, switched the gender. Still feel bad for this hypothetical "Aaron" Biden but not nearly as much as I do for her.

I think that you are thinking too much.

That's entirely possible.

I think anyone in the public eye (or the adult child of a prominent public figure) is a target for sleazos, and, whilst they're entitled to live their lives as they think fit, they at the same time mustbe aware that the consequences of their actions are likely to have knock-on effects beyond those affecting an ordinary Joe or Jill.

I also have to say that, if it is her in the video, she shows a staggering lack of judgment for a 27-year-old social worker in allowing herself to be filmed snorting coke, never mind that she's the daughter of the VP.

Can you dig deeper into *why* you feel bad? It seems like at one end of the spectrum there's "I think girls should remain wholesome and pure and never ever ever do slutty things like drugs and therefore I feel bad because she's fallen off her pedestal in front of the whole world" (reasonably standard sexist attitudes underlying the response) and on the other end there's "Women -- especially women related to male public figures -- tend to be judged more harshly for minor transgressions by the court of public opinion than [rich, white] men are, and so I feel bad because she's being held up to a sexist double standard that makes it hard for women to pursue their own lives" (reasonably standard feminist assumptions underlying the response).

Somewhere in the middle, I think, would be "I feel bad for her because boys shouldn't be mean to girls because girls are too fragile to handle it," which I guess is where the paternalism steps in.

In any event, I don't think "feeling bad" is sexist or paternalistic in and of itself; you need to look at what assumptions are driving the emotion and examine those, rather than the emotion itself.

I don't know but I do this too. I feel sorry for certain genders in certain situations. In this case (I didn't read the article) I wouldn't feel sorry for a man or woman. I don't feel sorry for Michael Phelps either. Don't go around letting people photograph you while you're doing illegal drugs.

/off soapbox.

If you feel sorrier for Ashley than for "Aaron", is it because on some level you assume that - as a female - she was less capable of recognizing or defending herself against someone looking to exploit her?

If so, I'm afraid that's sexist.

All I know is the guy who did this, much like the guy who did this to Michael Phelps, is a punk-ass who should be shunned by society. Instead, they'll probably get jobs with TMZ—which, if you think about it, is its own kind of punishment.

I completely agree, Atom Eyes.

I don't know. I had the same pissed off impulse about Phelps as this story, people are real assholes and really worm their way in any way even taking advantage of kids who don't know any better or are just trying to live their life. I think it isn't sexist to be annoyed by cruel opportunists.

Perhaps you meant "kids who don't know any better" in the general sense. But if we're talking about Ashley Biden, she's 27. If she doesn't know better by now, it's well past time for her to start learning.

I guess it is kinda sexist to feel worse for Ashley than hypothetical "Aaron."

But is it sexist that I kinda want to snort coke with Ashley Biden? I've never done an illegal drugs, but I'd give it a try with her.

Didnt' I just read that it wasn't actually her? Somewhere? Brain... dissolving....

pardon, i didn't know she was 27, she just looked young to me.

she shows a staggering lack of judgment for a 27-year-old social worker in allowing herself to be filmed snorting coke, never mind that she's the daughter of the VP.

Yeah, that's true for me too.

But aocchiblu said, if the assumption is "she's less able to protect herself, more easily taken advantage of than a guy would be," then that assumption is probably sexist.

I feel sorry for anyone of any age or gender conned into something like that.

That said, I totally agree with essexjan. People like Ms. Biden should be aware that there are people "out to get them" just because of who they are.

Agreeing with occhiblu.

I would also like to add that nearly every family in the United States is touched by substance abuse. The Bidens seem to be no different in that respect than the rest of us. I'm not saying Ashley Biden is an addict; I don't know Ms. Biden and I did not read the article. I'm saying we shouldn't be surprised there is substance abuse in the family, or in any family.

I think anyone in the public eye (or the adult child of a prominent public figure) is a target for sleazos, and, whilst they're entitled to live their lives as they think fit, they at the same time mustbe aware that the consequences of their actions are likely to have knock-on effects beyond those affecting an ordinary Joe or Jill.

I totally agree. I feel bad for Ashley Biden (if this video actually exists) the same way that I felt bad for Michael Phelps, but more than that, I can't imagine how any person, let alone someone high profile, could be so stupid as to let themself be recorded doing something illegal.

While I agree they should know better, drugs aren't exactly known for their judgment-enhancing effects. I am guessing in the moment they probably didn't care as much as they would normally. People do stupid things all the time, but no one cares about boring old normal people.

I don't really feel sorry for people who are in the public eye and make colossal mistakes like this, because they know everyone is watching and waiting for any small slip. I do feel sorry for people who are in the public eye for no reason than they are associated with someone who sought that public profile. This is (probably) one of those cases - she is watched not because she sought celebrity, but because her father did, which places a lot of pressure on her to act in a way that won't "bring disrepute" on her father. I think, though, that times and changing and the constant stream of evidence that famous people and their progeny are more or less human and just as prone to making stupid decisions as the rest of us must have an effect eventually. I look forward to the day when humanity realises that famous people really are just the same as the rest of us - they do some sane stuff and they do some dumb stuff and every now and again they make a huge error in judgement. When the US President's kid is caught snorting coke off the back of a french poodle and the world has a little snicker and moves on, we will have matured as a species.

Feeling more sorry for a female in this situation is probably sexist (but who am I to talk), but is perhaps more of a generational thing - despite knowing better, I tend to feel a little protective of females generally and get more annoyed when people treat them badly. I know it's wrong, but the concept that men should look after women was hammered into me when growing up and it's hard not to have those feelings at times. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps there's something in that idea?

Somewhere in the middle, I think, would be "I feel bad for her because boys shouldn't be mean to girls because girls are too fragile to handle it," which I guess is where the paternalism steps in.

Feeling more sorry for a female in this situation is probably sexist (but who am I to talk), but is perhaps more of a generational thing - despite knowing better, I tend to feel a little protective of females generally and get more annoyed when people treat them badly. I know it's wrong, but the concept that men should look after women was hammered into me when growing up and it's hard not to have those feelings at times. I don't know how old you are, but perhaps there's something in that idea?

To answer your question, dg, I'm in my late thirties.

I think these quotes get to the heart of what I'm feeling here -- yes, my attitude is a little bit sexist. If this had been a twenty-seven year old guy, I'd probably feel a little bit bad for him. But I'd still ridicule him. I'm not applying equal standards to men and women. I own it.

At the same time, I too was raised with the idea that you should be more gallant towards women, to look after them, that the world can be a predatory place and that you should be available to protect women if and when the circumstances call for it. And that men who mistreat women are contemptible. This is mostly unconscious stuff. On a conscious, rational level, I know that it's completely fuck-witted to be filmed doing something illegal. (I will add here that some reports say that the camera was hidden.) For that matter, it's fuck-witted to be doing drugs with people you don't know especially well.

Now, this might not be a 100% PC outlook but I think it's not an entirely awful way to view the world. There's the danger that this attitude can veer into condescension, but I'll keep an eye out for that.

Thanks, guys!

My (unasked for) advice: Just take this:

At the same time, I too was raised with the idea that you should be more gallant towards women, to look after them, that the world can be a predatory place and that you should be available to protect women if and when the circumstances call for it.

and change "women" to "other people."

Looking out for others is good, regardless of gender. It makes the world a nicer place, without needing to cast half the population into victimhood (and force the other half into protector mode whether they like it or not).

Looking out for others is good, regardless of gender.
Oh, absolutely. In a front-of-mind, rational way, I know this to be an absolute truth, just as I know that women are as capable of looking after themselves as men (probably more so in many cases), but I find it hard to bring this all the way back into my environmental imprinting. I still tend to open doors for women, while I don't for men. I still tend to walk on the curb side of the footpath if I'm walking with a woman for god's sake - these are not things I think about, they are things that I just do automatically.

In every possible sense, I view women as equal to men - I truly don't see myself as sexist in any way, but I can't seem to shake that protective demeanour and understand that some people see this behaviour as sexist. I know, it's a personality flaw, but I guess I could have worse flaws. Working in an environment of mostly females has, I think, been a mixed blessing in this respect. One one hand, I have no excuse for and do not think of women as weaker than men and the interactions in our office would instantly dismiss anyone's notion that women are weak or need to be protected from things like bad language or ribald commentary - the females here (who are educated, intelligent professionals) put me in the shade in that respect. On the other hand, learning that I have a much greater level of comfort in the company of females than males and becoming close(ish) friends with a couple of female co-workers has made me, if anything, even more protective towards them.

I am somewhat conflicted about the whole thing, because I know society tells me not to feel that women should be protected or need protecting. But every fibre of me says "I don't care if they don't need protecting, I'm here in the wings just in case they do". It just occurred to me that this is a somewhat selfish attitude, because it's really about me feeling good about 'doing my duty". Now I'm even more conflicted ...

On the curbside walking thing: I understand the impulse, and how it's coming from a generally good place, but this drives me nuts as a woman, at least when walking in major cities, because the etiquette now seems to do the opposite of what was intended. I assume the "rule" came about so that carriages (or even cars) going past would splash the man's clothes rather than the woman's, but when I'm walking though cities now the threats that I'm trying to avoid are the skeezy guys lounging in doorways making nasty sexual comments. When I'm out walking by myself at night, I tend to walk down the middle of the street (assuming it's not a busy street, of course) in order to stay away from shadowy doorways and to make sure that I'm never trapped between a parked car and a building. Being able to get into the street quickly feels the safest to me; being pushed up against buildings, even by guys who I know and trust, triggers a great deal of fear.

This does not at all apply in suburban areas or less-urban areas where there are lawns and such on the inside part of the sidewalk.

I assume that other people have other requirements for feeling safe, so I'm not trying to generalize about all women, but that actually tends to be where the sticking point with a lot of chivalrous behavior comes in -- it assumes in some ways that all women are interchangeable, with identical needs, fears, and desires, and so asks us to interact with the assumed needs, fears, and desires of women rather than taking the time to find out how they function as individuals.

The avoiding doorways thing is something that hadn't occurred to me - I guess "progress" has moved the danger of being a pedestrian from one side of the footpath to the other;-). Not that it's ever come up, but I suppose I would put myself between a woman and whatever danger presents, rightly or wrongly.

I guess it doesn't help that I have no intent of belittling women or of assuming that they are incapable of looking after themselves. I absolutely do not consider women to be interchangeable and do take the time to learn who they are. It's more of a learned behaviour than a conscious decision to act a certain way. I would still feel uncomfortable doing otherwise and would have to make a conscious effort to do so, which perhaps I should do as a personal growth exercise. At the least, if I'm ever walking down a footpath with you, occhiblu, I'll make sure I don't do that, for fear of getting my arse kicked.

In terms of coming to an understanding of the issues that women sometimes face in public, I had an interesting experience the other night. I was at a bar/nightclub with a bunch of work colleagues, mostly female, and I was amazed at the number of men trying to hit on them and being quite insistent about it, in some cases. I was also amazed at how skilled they (the women) were at deflecting this. They tell me that this is absolutely normal, which is yet another example of how men treat women poorly, seemingly based on an old-fashioned belief that women are incapable of approaching a man that interests them. I'm not sure if I helped or hindered by telling a couple of them that we were all attending a sex workers' convention in the hotel upstairs ...

At the least, if I'm ever walking down a footpath with you, occhiblu, I'll make sure I don't do that, for fear of getting my arse kicked.

:-)