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13 March 2009

Ask MeCha: Amateur electrician version!
[More:]
Consider these facts:

- Portable washing machine draws power, but agitates weakly. Comes on long enough for one spin, then seems unable to kick into refill mode. Makes humming noise.

- Lights on the same outlet as above work.

- Stove burner indicator lights come on when knobs are turned, but burners don't heat up.

- Neither oven indicator light nor oven itself will turn on.

- Kitchen overhead light dims slightly when oven knob is turned on.

- There seems to be hot water, but I'm not sure if the heater is still heating, or if the hot water is just remaining in the tank.

- Fridge/freezer is humming normally and seems cold; light comes on when door is opened.

- Baseboard heaters don't heat.

- Lights, TV and computer all work.

- All fuses appear to be okay (clear). None are obviously blown (dark).

- Hydro company says no other complaints have been made in my area.

- Others in my building aren't home, so I don't know if anyone else sees something weird.

- It's -3 and falling; getting cold in here. :(
Do you have a voltmeter? Sounds like a brownout.
posted by Doohickie 13 March | 19:31
You have fuses? Old Skool!

If it's systemic, it's not a single fuse. The same way that you'll often find mains breakers on a breaker box, there you might find one or two larger fuses that take the whole line. Check those. Carefully. Are your fuses fast or slow blow? If they're slow, maybe one or more were damaged?

If you have breakers but are calling them fuses, I'd think that one of your breakers is failing.

You could also have a neighbor who's tapped into your power to get extra juice for his indoor hydroponic pot farm, but unlikely.
posted by plinth 13 March | 19:37
- Nope, I don't have a voltmeter.

- I'm not totally sure I understand the bit about the "larger fuses". There are two drawer-things at the bottom of the fuse box, which each have two things that look sorta like AA batteries in them (but larger). Nothing is visibly weird about them.

- I don't know if my fuses are fast or slow blow -- they're all different brands and, it appears, vintages. Some are higher voltages than others.

- Now I'm confused about the difference between fuses and breakers. What I have are small glass knob-like things, screwed into holes in a panel. I thought breakers were the switches that turn on/off the fuses... eg. "Flip the breaker". If so, I have only fuses in this panel, no breakers. Some of the fuses are screwed in pairs into a box that snaps into the panel, though, and others screw individually into the panel.

- I wouldn't be crazy surprised about a pot-growing neighbour. I hope that's not it, though, because I imagine it would be hard to sleuth that out.
posted by loiseau 13 March | 19:44
Would it be helpful to take a picture? Or is this the kind of thing that probably will wind up requiring an electrician anyway? (My landlord's been here and I think he's coming back tomorrow with a voltmeter -- or a thing to test the fuses, anyway -- but he doesn't know much anyway and was baffled.)
posted by loiseau 13 March | 19:52
This is the kind of fuse I have:

≡ Click to see image ≡

Except for four at the bottom in closed panels that are cylindrical and metal.
posted by loiseau 13 March | 19:58
Yup, you have fuses. All fuses. The things that look like AA batteries are also fuses. As to slow/fast blow, they should be labeled as such. Fast blow fuses are meant to blow at the first sign that too much current is being drawn. This is the kind of thing that saves your life in a short circuit. Slow blow goes slower so that transient spikes (like when you turn on a hair drier) doesn't take out the fuse.

On my breaker box, there are mains breakers that control all the power coming in. This is a pair of two breakers that are ganged together that I can flip to take out the power in the whole house in one shot.

You might not have the fuse equivalent. It depends. You could probably tell by reading the ratings on the fuses. In the US all of them should be 110 or 120v unless you have 220v appliances, then you might have one circuit with 220v. Then each will have an ampere rating on the order of 15A or 20A or 30A. A typical house/apartment has 110V and 75-200A coming in that gets split up into different circuits.

If you see any that read 75A or higher, these are the mains fuses. If not, you don't have them.
posted by plinth 13 March | 20:19
I'm an actual, real-life maintenance electrician at a factory (well, an instrument technician, but I do electrical too, and that's my training). I love problems like this, and I wish I lived nearby to troubleshoot it. Sounds to me like there's a short in the system somewhere. Have you had some moisture recently? You could also have old wiring that's got a short, but not a complete one. It also could be a loose connection in the mains, or a squirrel chewing through wire insulation. Fascinating set of symptoms, and great job documenting them. If you look at them, it appears that most of the big stuff doesn't work right, but most of the little stuff does, so it seems like something is limiting the current coming in, and causing a voltage drop when something big kicks in. My guess is you'll need a real electrician to fix it. If he thinks it might be a fuse issue, just replace the fuses (one at a time so you can isolate it to a circuit), they're relatively cheap, and that's an easy test. Really, I think an electrician might be the best bet, and electricity is really nothing to mess with since a little bit can go a long way to killing someone.
posted by eekacat 13 March | 20:36
plinth, I've never dealt with fuses like this on a 220 volt house wiring circuit. 220 volt breakers have each "phase" tied together so if one phase trips, both open up. Do they fuse each phase separately, so if one phase trips, the other remains hot (seems quite unsafe if so)? I've seen that in control power at work, but I don't have a lot of experience with house circuits. The only ones I've ever dealt with that had fuses only had 120 volts supplying the system.
posted by eekacat 13 March | 20:47
I think if they are fuses, there's no way to gang them together to take out both phases. Maybe.

When it comes to the main fuses, though, that seems like it's electrician time.

Friday the 13th is hitting many of us, huh? You with the electrical, my son with his first car accident, etc.
posted by Doohickie 13 March | 22:40
Dang, Eekacat, I wish you lived nearby too!

I don't have the kind of mains breaker Plinth describes. I do have one big switch that's just on or off for all the power. It's next to the fusebox.

Earlier, I made Eggo Waffles (it was all I could think of that doesn't require the stove or oven). The toaster is plugged into a power bar. When I pushed down the Eggos, the two lights I had on (small lamps plugged in) dimmed WAY down. The toaster elements didn't light up, though it did get hot-ish. I plugged it directly into the socket and it heated and lit up okay after that. I guess that power bar is bad? It seems so random.

I am so confused! I'm staying warm okay so far, with like three layers on, scarf, hat, and fingerless gloves.
posted by loiseau 13 March | 22:48
Okay, I just took pictures and now I can't find the USB cable for my camera anywhere.

Sigh.

This is what I have in the box, from top to bottom:

2 x "TC 20 D dual element" fuses (in a holder together)
2 x "GP 15" fuses (in a holder together)
2 x "GP 15" fuses (in a holder together)
1 x "GP 15 'P' type" fuse and 1 x "TD 20" fuse (individually screwed into panel)
2 x "GP 15 'P' type" fuses (individually screwed into panel)
[space]
2 x "TD 20 'D' type" fuses (in a holder together)
2 x "TD 20 'D' type" fuses (in a holder together)
[space]
In a small drawer, 2 x "CRN 60 type D time delay" fuses
In a small drawer, 2 x "CRN 30 type P one time" fuses

I really can't bring myself to draw this out in Photoshop. One aborted attempt was painful enough. I'm just friggin frustrated, about this and generally about life right now.
posted by loiseau 13 March | 23:57
Sounds to me like you have a problem with about half your circuits, somehow, but no problem with some of the other circuits. Are the fridge and stove on the same circuit? What about the baseboard heaters? Have you tried identifying fuses with affected and unaffected appliances, then swapping fuses (when I do stuff like this, I like to ostentatiously announce to no one, "For ... Science!")?

That's probably the fastest route to getting your heat back on, the rest can wait until you get a new fuse tomorrow or get an electrician over.
posted by stilicho 14 March | 00:21
Are circuits just a pair of fuses? I am very conscious that I don't know the correct terminology for any of this and I don't want to misspeak.

I can't test what fuses the heaters are on because... well, they won't come on. But they are marked on the inside of the fusebox as being the bottom two pairs, the ones in the little drawers.

The fridge and stove do not appear to be on the same fuses.

Of course, the kitchen ceiling light is not on the same fuse as the stove, either, but it's affected when the oven knob is turned. And the lamp on the table dimmed when I used the toaster on a separate fuse. So who the fuck knows.

I did try switching around some of the knobby glass fuses, where the markings were the same, to no effect.

To be honest I have no idea what I should endeavour to replace -- if the heaters are (as marked) the bottom two sets, or two fuses in each of the two drawer thingys, with different markings (CRN30 vs. CRN60) does it make sense that both of them are out? I mean, I can buy two new fuses of each voltage and replace them, but something about that doesn't seem right.

How can you visualize if those cylindrical fuses are blown?

I understand the glass ones darken or look burnt and a filament may appear broken (or something), and I think I've seen them like that before, but all mine look normal to me.

Now I'm just ranting, but I really wish the panel had marked what strength all these fuses should be. I can only go on what's already in there, but it makes no sense to me that one of the pairs of fuses consists of two different strengths/voltages/whatever. (A GP 15 and a TD 20.)

I HAVE NO IDEA OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ANY OF THIS AND I FEEL VERY FRUSTRATED.
posted by loiseau 14 March | 01:46
Please loiseau if you are renting call the landlord ASAP in the morning. If you own call an electrician ASAP. This is not a dilettante's problem.
posted by arse_hat 14 March | 01:50
Oh, the landlord's already been here. He's supposed to be coming back with a thing to test the fuses (?) sometime this afternoon. He's not a handy guy, though, and I'm pretty sure he's going to want to avoid hiring an electrician on the weekend (or any time really.) Seeing as I'm late paying my rent (as in, can't afford to pay for March yet, have to wait for my income tax refund or a job) I need to avoid being anything but totally polite about this. Anyway making an enemy of the landlord is something I try very hard to avoid. It's pretty difficult to evict people here, as laws are relatively favourable to the tenant, but the last thing I need is more "issues" in my life.

I ask for advice here because if it *was* something I could fix I would really like to do that, both to avoid inconveniencing the landlord and to be able to do the things I need/want to do without being at mercy to his rather flexible sense of time.

Meanwhile I've discovered that the electric kettle won't heat, or at least heats verrrrry slowly. Yet somehow the fridge and microwave seem to work? The whole thing is so weird.

It only got down to like -4 last night though (I would guess that's somewhere around 28F?) so it wasn't as bad as I expected.
posted by loiseau 14 March | 09:43
ugh. I so wish we were neighbors, loiseau, because pretty much anything that can be fixed, my husband can fix. I mean up to the point where, forget about it, you're tearing out the walls and installing all new wiring or whatever. Of course, if we were neighbors here, it would only be 61°F/16°C, and less of a hardship to wait for the droopy landlord to sort it.

Obviously, the answer is to move to Greece, next door to me. I really want the company - are you willing?
posted by taz 14 March | 10:19
there's a pretty nice apartment on the top floor available... kind of small and weird, but with a killer balcony the size of a small apartment all by itself. Or the middle apartment might become available, bigger, nicer and it has a very, very sweet terrace area via a short span of stairs. Either way, partay in the house! :)
posted by taz 14 March | 10:30
I think the answer *is* to move to Greece! I mean, I've only ever seen it in the movies, but it looks crazy fantastic. I also once had a net.friend in Athens... I wonder where she is these days. I bet the last time I was in touch with her was probably 2000 or 2001.

How is Greek food for the vegetarian? I mean, I've had, like, Greek salads, but I wonder if that isn't just North American pseudo-Greek food. I like eggplant -- your people enjoy eggplant, yes? I also enjoy feta cheese. I'll bring maple syrup. See? It's like we're the United Nations already.

I am no further ahead with the electricity than I was last night. The landlord didn't come back this afternoon, and I can't find my phone to call him. It is very difficult to Google for any relevant info. I did find out that the little boxes that most of the fuses are plugged into in pairs are apparently called "fuse heads".

I guess the reason I've been so worked up about this is that I am pretty self-sufficient -- being alone all these years does that to you -- and I really *want* to be able to figure this out.

I also want to wash the clothes sitting in a machine full of now-murky cold water. But the "problem I can't solve myself" aspect is undeniable.
posted by loiseau 14 March | 16:54
I just posted the longest, most insane message detailing the situation to the This Old House message board. They're probably going to think I'm insane.

One thing I've realized in my Googling is that there are different fuses 'n shit in Canada than elsewhere (different regulatory bodies) so probably a lot of the details I've given here (and on the TOH board) will be meaningless to 90% of the people reading it.

FUCK I'm tired.
posted by loiseau 15 March | 02:44
Still no heat, no hot water, no stove or oven.

Sigh.
posted by loiseau 16 March | 03:04
good lord. What does your landlord say? This is crazy.
posted by taz 16 March | 03:18
As of about noon, "I'll get on the horn." No word since.

The This Old House message-board denizens say it's gotta be outside my apartment, related to the transformer connection or mainline or something.

Just... thank Jeebus it's been hovering around freezing the past few days, and sunny in the day.

I took a bath standing up in the tub with a small basin of water from the kettle last night. I FEEL LIKE A PIONEER WOMAN.
posted by loiseau 16 March | 15:27
DOH! || Sharper? Clearer?

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