(this whole thread is really about the kidney, isn't it?)

Did you try making kidney beans? Those are good.

this whole thread is really about the kidney, isn't it?

No. It's about Gothamist, actually.

I really think that the internet has truly fucked with all our heads. in a bad way. I've looked at places like youtube or yahoo and decried the stupidity of the comments and thought myself lucky that I hung out at online places where the discourse was more elevated...until I came to the kind of obvious realization that the discourse isn't any more elevated just the vocabulary and grammar.

I subscribe to a better class of stupidity.

Yeah, jon. It's something I realized when I started digging into my alma mater's "community-l" - an email list meant for free-form discussion about community issues. 500 student, faculty, and alumni at one of the best colleges in the US, and most of our conversations still degraded into strawmen arguments and flame-baiting.

muddgirl-yeah that's usually what I'm getting at when people accuse me of 'anti-intellectualism.' Having a lot of intelligence or education is not an immunization against pettiness or prejudice or cruelty or any of the myriad moral frailties that everybody is subject too. I've been trying to communicate that for years, but I always got wrapped up in other shit in the process.

I can make two positive statments of my years posting on Plastic and Metafilter.

1. The more interesting people gravitated here to Metachat.
2. My writing has improved immeasurably, and for the first time I have the confidence to start submitting to professional publications.

More on topic, blogs have not improved matters, instead they gave the idiots more space to present their inanity.

Having a lot of intelligence or education is not an immunization against pettiness or prejudice or cruelty

I thought those were prerequisites for work in academia.

Also, let us not confuse intelligence and education.

I also think anonymity has a lot to do with it. People feel free to expose the best parts of themselves on the internet in ways they never would in real life. In return, people also expose the worst parts of themselves.

There's also a lack of immediacy here. If I say something cruel and stupid in real life, no one's going to notice, or I can backpedal. But on the Internet my words are immortal, one way or another.

Also, let us not confuse intelligence and education.

Actually, I consider confusing intelligence as something of a calling.

What trinity8 said about intelligence and education: not the same thing, and having one's no indication that you also have the other, or have it to an equal degree.

And, though intelligent people have all the human failings that all people do, they're still a lot more fun and interesting to hang out with, at least in my experience.

True enough, muddgirl. And I'll be the last person to deny that I've exposed the worst parts of myself online in moments of anger or frustration or depression or whatever*. And, if I might pat myself on the back for a minute, might be my biggest stregnth, that I'm willing to expose myself as human rather than just say what I think might please somebody. Not that that makes me any less of an asshole than anybody else, but I digress. My point is that the less we look for saints and demons (and those on every end of the ideological spectrum are very guilty of this) and remember that we're all just human, we might dial down all our huffing and puffing and actually communicate with eachother.

*FWIW, I stil consider this the greatest compliment I've ever recieved online.

...most of the time, as a general rule (I thought of some exceptions).

And, though intelligent people have all the human failings that all people do, they're still a lot more fun and interesting to hang out with, at least in my experience.

and I'll ask you this: would you rather hang out with an intelligent, cruel, fascistic person or a not-too-bright decent compassionate person?

I would not like to hang out with any cruel, fascistic person. Those come in both flavors. This is an example of a false choice.

would you rather hang out with an intelligent, cruel, fascistic person or a not-too-bright decent compassionate person?

Let's compare apples to apples: would you rather hang out with an intelligent decent compassionate person or a not-too-bright decent compassionate person? Would you rather hang out with an intelligent cruel, fascistic person or a not-too-bright cruel, fascistic person?

I'd rather hang out with an intelligent decent compassionate person or a not-too-bright cruel, fascistic person. The first one for the conversation, the second one so I can tell Bush what an asshat he's been.

Let's compare apples to apples: would you rather hang out with an intelligent decent compassionate person or a not-too-bright decent compassionate person?

To be honest? Sometimes I'd rather hang out with the not too bright decent person, since even decent smart people half the time make you feel like bugs for not being as 'smart' as they are and the not too bright decent guy isn't going to make you feel like you have to pass some kind of test before they treat you like an equal.

These type of questions are interesting in that they reveal that we value what we value because..well, because it's what we have. Pretty people value looks because they have looks, smart people value intelligence because they ave intelligence. I'm not saying that either of these things are valueless, I'm merely saying that neither of them equates to actual human decency and that none of them is the whole picuture of what makes a good human being.

Agreed, Jon, to a point. The point being that, having spent plenty of time in both worlds over the years, I've found that the "not too bright decent guy" is just as likely to make you feel like you have to pass the "just folks" test before treating you like an equal because he's got an inferiority complex and assumes your vocabulary, degree, and income automatically make you a stuck-up, foppish, asshole. So, it also gets old having to constantly prove that your talents, accomplishments, and choices aren't meant as a reflection on your companions. In my mind, the burden is on the whoever has the prejudice, not based on which side of the fence you landed on.

I value kindness very highly, and it is, regrettably, not a virtue that I come by easily if at all.

True enough, flo, but the his test is usually easier to pass than the smart guys test, since the smart guys are so insecure about their status that they keep narrowing the field and blablabla...and at the end of the day, we all have 'the prejudice' you and me included, so I'll pretty much extend friendliness to anyone who extends it to me, until they give me a really good reason not to, and even then I'll probably still try to find a reason to keep the conversation going. Call me crazy.

(and FWIW, I'll admit that sometimes the fact that not-too-bright people find me 'smart' is a factor' in my opinion on this.)

Yeah, I get along with pretty much everybody. Mostly because I judge people on how they act, not on what they say or how they say it, and because I value a lot of different things, and most people have some combination going for them. Plus, I know and am comfortable with my own shortcomings, and although I don't dwell on them, I'm also not hesitant to make myself the butt of my own jokes. That seems to go a long way with most people. Plus, I'm awesome.

which is why I dig ya, flo. nothing will ever change till we all take a bite of the shit sandwich of blame for the stae of the world.

I've chewed on that sandwich plenty, thanks. And I still find it hard to swallow.

Which is why God made beer, and other strong lubricants.

So to boil it down, everyone wants to hang out with people that are somewhat like them. Good to know.

Actually, I think we decided that everyone wants to hang out with people who are least likely to judge us for qualities we are sensitive about. In many cases, that will probably mean people who are in some ways like us. It's a subtle difference, I guess, but I personally find it a useful one.

Also, I'm bored at work today and not feeling well, so I'm blabbing on more than usual, and not paying as much attention to what I say. So, I should probably go take some Tylenol and call it a day.

People talk about intelligence out of insecurity the way they talk about wealth out of insecurity. All I care about is that whoever I'm talking to doesn't put words in my mouth; I talk enough shit as is, just stick around and I'll explain myself.

I like people who don't take responsibility for positive behavior.

Pretty people value looks because they have looks, smart people value intelligence because they ave intelligence.

I like to hang out with beautiful smart good kind witty rich people. Now I know why.

Yes. Opposites attract. (sorry, too easy)

I hang out with people who are into radio ice hockey, Farrakhan's Massenet fixation, and impromptu bouts of greasy Turkish wrestling. I guess you could call me a sportsman.

When I tell people I like greasy ice hockey with Farrakhan, they change the subject.

My self-defined category of person is better than your self-defined category of person.

Maybe, but your self-defined category of person's favorite band still sux.

The internet reminds me why eye contact, tone of voice, and body language are critical to human communication. Sometimes people are just being asshats, and sometimes I think it's easy to read someone's written words differently than they had intended. I usually avoid message boards etc, Metachat being the lone exception. The discourse here tends to be a bit more reasonable (I said a bit!). Maybe it's the freedom of topic and style of conversation. I feel like you get a sense of the people's personalities better. I know if I post something and jonmc responds in a snotty way, he's just being his wacky ol' irrascible self and not trying to be "OMG U R TEH R3TRRD3D!!!" Well, ok, MAYBE he's thinking that, but he means well. Er... oh nevermind you get my point :P

(For the record, I think that emoticons, as stupid as they are, are the best replacement for body language availble yet. See, that "tongue out face" up there means "Don't hit me, jonmc!!!")

My self-defined category of person is "sportsman." Sportsmen are, by and large, moved to tears by french violin music, particularly in a Nation of Islam setting. We like hockey on the radio because it isn't all Goddy like other American sports; the announcers will use words like "damn" and "hell without flinching. Sportsmen are for separation of church and sports, and it's nice that hockey isn't all wrapped up in prayer like baby bunting around the sweet holy Christ. My radio tells me this.

What I'm trying to say is that I hang out with my radio. Just me and my radio, and the occasional greased Turk.

Anyone want to wrestle? Grab my belt, I've got enough grease for both of us!

Maybe, but your self-defined category of person's favorite band still sux.

No, they used to be awesome, but then they got too popular.

I didn't leave "french" uncapitalized for political reasons. My "shift" key was a little slippery.

The thing with emoticons is, I don't know what they mean and I can't be arsed to find out. I'm old; I grew up reading text, the alphanumeric kind, with punctuation. The rebuses were mostly done in kindergarten. So as an adult, I just haven't cottoned to memorizing dozens of little pictograms just so I can get a sense of how something was supposed to be taken. Especially when they get to the point of symbolizing things like "Don't mind me, I'm just drunk, crazy-eyed, and horny, so blow in my ear, and here's a long-stemmed rose!"

You never did the rebuses inside beer bottle caps?

I totally forgot about those! But that's because whenever I saw 'em I was --->]8-*@!#--%, know what I'm saying?

I was --->]8-*@!#--%, know what I'm saying?

Oh, lucky you! Round these parts we call that a chain gang.

I know if I post something and jonmc responds in a snotty way, he's just being his wacky ol' irrascible self and not trying to be "OMG U R TEH R3TRRD3D!!!"

Actually, he's probably not doing either one, but that may make your point better than anything.

Certainly pettiness, prejudice, and cruelty do appear to be prerequisites to work in academia...

=)

One of the things I like best about hanging out with people with whom I share more dissimilarities than similarities is that we can shut the fuck up around one another, ya know? Like if I'm sitting there having a beer with this old guy who worked on the docks until disability sent him to the bar every day, he says, "Hey Hugh," and I say, "Yo Barnes, fuckin' brick out, right?" and we bang beers and he coughs out "Shit yeah," and then we just sit there drinking beer, thinking or watching Sportscenter until one of us says, "Ah, that's bullshit," and nine times out of ten the other one just nods, but that ten percent of the time one of us spins out a story that's just fucking amazing, and the other one says "No shit," or "Who does some sick shit like that?" and then we finish our beers and see you next times and I'm out, and I never felt the burden of conversation or the need to impress. Also the cats at the diner, man, they love talking about soccer and Mexico, except for the Greeks who love talking about soccer and Greece, and it's a riot, everybody laughing and speaking their own language and nobody minds that I say hey, can you get me a coffee, which reminds them that they're on the clock, serving me. They call me "pal," which people like me never say to one another.

One of the things I like about hanging out with people like me is the palaver, the erudition, you know? And the feeling I get that this fucker might actually read the book I recommend to them. Also that nobody's gonna laugh at the way I talk (though the diner staff all thought I was from Belgium because of my accent); it's becoming easier and easier for me to speak comfortably with educated people now that they're failing too, or now that they know enough job losers and desperate people, they start to see that our similarities are more important than who we might work for. But that's a real line of bullshit right there; I'm just projecting all over the place.

Really, I just like people. Those who've met me find me gregarious. But I'm a bad friend because when it comes down to it, ninety percent of the time I just want to shut the fuck up and think to myself. Otherwise I stand around all nervous, looking for someone to talk to, and then when I do it's just a mile-a-minute gab-fest, blah blah blah, but I guess like everything it's interesting too.

I just have one thing to say to you, Hugh Janus: Those beer cap rebuses are the WORST REBUSES EVER.

*throws HJ out of very extremely elite rebus club*

Hugh has a Belgian accent?

I'm sure he does. It's just like a French accent, except with more mustache.

I don't know, but I like online conversations. I've moved around a lot and picked up on social cues pretty fast, like army brats or diplomat kids I'm content reading a book alone in the corner but I could also be dropped into almost any group and make myself at home. Thing is, most of that is probably a trained reaction (you try changing schools fourteen times before you're 18!) and as much as I like having the ability, I often find that the group I just made friends with bugs the shit out of me. Most people see the world as their little itty bitty box, but like to pretend that they are oh so open minded. As a kid it was easy, boxes were 'jocks' and 'nerds' and 'pretty girls', 'horror fans', 'goth', punk', 'mods' and whatever. Everyone knew they were in their chosen box and the funnest people were the ones who did their own thing (this is still true for adults). Some were narrowminded and never understood the people in the other boxes - these people should always be avoided. Social laws are different everywhere, some use irony so much its grating. Some groups are open with jokes, others don't get them. Some groups speak very little and you pick up on body language alone. Cultural cues and manner are different from north to south, from country to country. When I was a kid I thought Zelig was a real documentary, and that I had the same ability as him. In the deep south USA, kids would always open the fridge when playing at a friends house to help themselves to some lemonade - that's what "make yourself at home" means and you need to keep drinking fluids. I opened the fridge at a friends house in Sweden and the mother of the house yelled at me for being incredibly rude. And so I learned what's OK and what is not in most countries, through embarrassing mistakes.

For some reason, I thinks it's easier to understand what people mean online, without any eye contact or tone than when I have to decipher the various cultural ways of people. But I still get avoid them when I see people not trying to understand a group in the other box. They're still bad news. I'd probably like to hang out with Hugh and drink beer in silence, sounds relaxing.

that came out of left field, I needed to vent I guess, sorry

Actually, he's probably not doing either one, but that may make your point better than anything.

That was pretty much my point. If I write "Hey my computer doesn't work!" and someone writes "Did you try turning it on?", that can be easily construed as being sarcastic, when maybe all the person is trying to ask is if you actually tried pushing the power button instead of using the "restart" option.

I'm just really verbal, which is why I love online conversation. It doesn't worry me too much how well it represents people - in my experience, most people are extremely well represented by what they write, except that they are definitely fuller and more multi-dimensional in life: that is, you can't imagine a person's every attribute, and especially not their moment-to-moment personal energy and presence, by reading their writing. I generally take people at face value and I have never met someone in real life that I knew from online and had any sort of "I had you TOTALLY wrong!" reaction. Not once. Most people match their online personae, only of course, there's a lot more to them than you can tell by their writings.

I also love real-life conversation that is really verbal and is about ideas, but it's harder to get to that because first you have to wade through the social niceties, which I don't take a ton of pleasure or interest in. A lot of times when I need a mental rest I just like to read the paper or a magazine, even while hanging out with friends or SO. It's restful for when I don't want to talk.

Most people are pretty much doing about the best they can all the time. What it comes down to is: I like people of goodwill. I don't like people who lack goodwill. You can like almost anyone who is positively disposed to being in the world and doing what they can and is somewhat open to connecting with other people. Beyond that, people of goodwill who have neat ideas and projects and carry on interesting conversations and make interesting observations are my favorite. Especially if they are together in themselves, mostly able to perceive and meet their needs in some relatively healthy way, and somewhat able to moderate themselves given different receptions and social settings. I personally work toward those marks without always hitting them. I don't look for a lot of reasons to divide people beyond goodwill/ill will, but as far as social company goes, I most enjoy creative, verbal people with curiosity, willingness to develop themselves, and lots of interests and observations to make. I believe intelligence - in terms of good horse sense - is to be respected, but of course it's not everything, there are other important qualities to be valued in human beings - not least, the simple fact of their humanness. The Quaker in me extends that even to people of ill will; they're still members of the family and have something of value. I suspect that's all jonmc was trying to say, and I don't think he's unusual in saying that sort of thing, and I don't think he'll get much argument with the basic premise.

Most people see the world as their little itty bitty box, but like to pretend that they are oh so open minded.

Quoted for truth.

Most people see the world as their little itty bitty box, but like to pretend that they are oh so open minded

A) this is only true for people who see the world from this particular little box.

b) being open minded is nice, but as one of my favorite sayings goes "if you're too open minded, your brains fall out." Healthy skepticism and some judgement about relative value [of people/places/things/activities/foods/political beliefs] is a vital function in life. Whether the state of being completely open-minded is a good is debatable. If we were completely open-minded about medical treatments, for example, we wouldn't have evolved effective medical treatment techniques. If we were completely open-minded about people, we wouldn't even find reason to have a thread about what the proper attitude toward others is - because there'd be no proper attitude. All attitudes would be equally acceptable.

I'm confused.

Did you think that quote was a dig at you? Because it wasn't.

Regarding the Belgian accent thing, I have absolutely no idea why they thought I sounded Belgian. But they're all Greek, Mexican, and Guatemalan, so what do they know, huh? I think it was because I took a lot of long lunches to watch the World Cup with them, so they figured I wasn't American.

I can sound like I'm from Baltimore or the Eastern Shore or Southern Maryland, and also I can do Hokkaido-ben (Hokkaido dialect) and a little Osaka-ben in Japanese, and I've been told my French sounds North African (I lived with Tunisians in Israel). But Belgian? Your guess is as good as mine.

Did you think that quote was a dig at you?

Heck no. Just pointing out that that is as specific a worldview as anyone's, It's another box.