Wasn't the hubbub started by the photo of an independent coffeehouse that had a sign up listing the only iced drinks they would serve (after a person had tried to get a poor man's latte and was told no).

My poor memory means I cannot remember name of the coffeehouse or the mefi post or even if it was mefi.

Miko, I think your argument is sound. The coffee emporium should expect this to happen, just as the restaurants that have self-serve soda stations (or pop or Coke(r) depending on where you live) can expect some people who get a small drink may refill it 1000 times. Or people who order a water cup, may fill it with soda. I remember that some mom & pop establishments that had added self service soda stations used to have a "refills 25c" sign up or even "no refills" at some whereas McDonalds and its megacorp didn't worry about it.

I only drink my coffee black so I don't care about how people do their milkshakey drinks or how much starbucks charges. Or if it is OK to rip off starbucks or the local guys. On that though, I don't think it is OK to say it is a travesty to cheat the mom and pop place, but ok to screw starbucks. Just be consistent. If it is wrong to order a poor man's latte at the mom&pop, it is wrong at big multinational megacorp coffee too.

Call me cheap and tacky.

I don't think it's either cheap or tacky. I've never done it or thought of doing it, but I would have no problem with anyone else availing themselves of the freebies offered to them to customize their drinks. I mean...huh? There's the cream. It's free. Go for it.

But of course, there's always going to be some idiot who ruins it for the rest of us. The cheapskate who takes every freaking sugar packet out of the little tin on the table at the local diner because they're there and he can. The moron who stuffs all of the milkshake straws at McDonalds into her handbag because they're perfect for her morning smoothies.

$10.24? For two cups of coffee? Fuck them - what's in that half and half, blessed angel shit?

I actually like Starbucks coffee, god help me, but then I'm strictly a black coffee person as well, although once or twice a year I go all out and drink one of those blended sweet iced things they make that are so delicious and so wrong. But honestly, I have no real sympathy for anyone here: the price disparity is so huge but I have long since noted that a lot of the people who wangle special deals for themselves do not actually need them whereas the people who do are proud and pay full price or go without. They suck too. Witness Free First Wednesdays at the museum where I work - hello, upper middle class moms with kids wearing private school shirts? Don't come complain to me about how crowded it is and how you've already seen the movie in the back. Come back when you're paying our meager admission and complain then.

Anyway, who am I supposed to hate here? Everyone? Good, I can get behind that.

Oh, I'm not nominating anyone for hatred. I was just thinking about it from an ethical perspective. And I don't think it's wrong to do whatever you want to your drink when they make you welcome to do so.

In fact, I'm such a cheapskate that on my cross-country trip a few years back, to save money, my carmate and I kept reusing the same Burger King cup to get free refills at rest stops across the land, rather than buying new cups.

a lot of the people who wangle special deals for themselves do not actually need them whereas the people who do are proud and pay full price or go without.

That's absolutely true. I think people like the feeling that they're getting one over on someone, being clever.

I'm surprised there's a debate here. Starbucks is a big company with sophisticated inventory controls and information systems. If their cream inventories are being stressed or if orders are shifting away from full-priced drinks to the cheaper component parts, then they'll notice it. And quickly. If they don't do anything to stop it, I think that's tacit permission.

If it is wrong to order a poor man's latte at the mom&pop, it is wrong at big multinational megacorp coffee too.

I disagree in this case. Mom & Pop shops may not have the ability to monitor and control things like this. And they may be running on too thin of margins to risk cracking down on customers. Starbucks allowing this to happen shouldn't force the Mom & Pops to allow it too.

I am interested in getting behind mygothlaundry in hating everybody.

Oh, I'm not nominating anyone for hatred. I was just thinking about it from an ethical perspective. And I don't think it's wrong to do whatever you want to your drink when they make you welcome to do so.

In fact, I'm such a cheapskate that on my cross-country trip a few years back, to save money, my carmate and I kept reusing the same Burger King cup to get free refills at rest stops across the land, rather than buying new cups.

a lot of the people who wangle special deals for themselves do not actually need them whereas the people who do are proud and pay full price or go without.

That's absolutely true. I think people like the feeling that they're getting one over on someone, being clever.

they pay less in wages because their staff only work as baristas, and don't serve tables.

Actually, Starbucks has huge labor costs. They pay at least market wages for hourly employees, plus health care. (They pay more in health care costs than they pay for coffee.) If a person were waiting tables, they would get tips, but those would be from customers. Apparently the Starbucks CEO has gotten some flack about spending so much on employees. (I'm sure he's not perfect, just saying.)

With this concept, I keep thinking -- you fill up half your cup with half-and-half, and then you drink it???? Ewwwwwww.

I like Starbucks filter coffee, a little milk, done. Here in San Francisco, where all prices are hugely inflated, the cost of filter coffee is pretty much the same at Starbucks versus other places. Just under two dollars.

It's not really a latte, I don't think, unless there's steamed milk. Or at least some sort of frothed milk. If they're just dumping milk or half-and-half directly out of the carton into a drink, with no barrista work involved, then (1) that's a cheap and crappy way to make an iced latte so (2) I don't really see this as the customers being problematic. If Starbucks was making the drink properly, then the customer would be unable to recreate it perfectly at the condiment bar.

The size of the cups invites it - this isn't really an issue for smaller coffee shops/ chains because 'enormous' isn't a menu option (here in the UK anyway).

Of course it's fair. And it's just as right as having a monster coffee company with a gazillion stores in which to cheat in.

As a waiter I have actually experienced the following:

A patron requests water to drink. With "lots of extra lemons". Patron proceeds to squeeze lemons into water, then uses all the Equal/Splenda/Sweet'n'Low packets on the table to sweeten the concoction. Voila. Free lemonade.

Drinks lemonade, requests "more lemons, please". When request is politely denied (we make excellent fresh strawberry lemonade, would you like to try some?), demands to speak to manager, patron walks out after getting meal comped by manager. Voila. Free meal. When request is ignored, no tip. When request is fulfilled, kitchen manager collars waiter and jaws him or her out about food cost.

This happened at least once a month, if not weekly.

Oh, and did I mention waiters generally don't get tipped when meals are comped?

That's taking advantage of our hospitality. It's abusing the privileges that we, the hosts, extend to you, the guest.

And while it may be getting one over on the evil evil restaurant you've chosen to dine in, it isn't clever -- it's whatever polite phrase you choose to use that actually means "ghetto". Or "redneck" -- there were definitely two distinct demographics who'd figured out the free lemonade trick. Oh, and since I'm waltzing around accusations of racism, let me go ahead and compound my error by stating definitively that the only people I ever saw pull this scam were women. There, now I'm a sexist, too.

If it'd been my restaurant, I'd have simply hung up a sign that said "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone At Any Time For Any Reason" and then made a big huge publicly embarrassing deal about kicking them out.

Also, I want onboard the "hating everybody" train.

Finally, a chance to tell the world what I think of this issue.

Um, I mostly agree with everybody said. Except for the hating-everyone part. Is Starbucks selling convenience, or are they levying a tax on ignorance?

The only thing I've seen that compares to the classic lemonade gambit, is the family that came into the Chinese takeout place and attempted to sit at a table and eat a meal they bought somewhere else. They did have the decency to seem truly embarrassed when they were called on it, however.

While I, too, hate everyone, I do feel a little weird going into Starbucks and just ordering black iced coffee and then enmilkening it (yay made up word!) to my standards. I can't stand those frappawhositnows or whatever they are.

*shakes cane at passing whippersnappers*

Upon further reflection, I'm also not necessarily too thrilled about the word 'ghetto.' Or pretty much any other racist/sexist/classist/x-ist code words.

I've seen the lemonade thing a few times myself.

I waitressed for a while as a teenager, and there was a man that would come in every week and sit at the counter and order a cup of hot tea. He would forego the tea bag and put ketchup into the hot water, and add a few crackery things that were always on the table, and some horseradish. He had a nice steamy cup of tomato soup and a little chat for the price of a cup of tea. When he was done he'd wrap the tea bag and the lemon slice in a napkin and tuck them into his pocket to take home to his wife. He was a sweet old guy and always left me a couple of dimes.

Oh yeah, and I hate you all, mainly because eyeballkid doesn't post here*.

*I think*

I have no opinion on the coffee thing, since I don't drink or like coffee (except for a general "people shouldn't be dicks, companies shouldn't be dictators" attitude). But you'll have to take "ghetto" from my cold, dead hands.

Starbucks knows this is going on. If they want it to stop, they can say so. Instead, they are (wisely, in my mind) saying that it is okay.

Yep - while such loopholes seem terribly scandalous and light us all up like some kind of magical discovery, the truth is that few people actually take advantage of them often enough to make an economic impact on Starbucks. Until that changes, I'm sure Starbucks is loath to remove the cream and sugar everyone else has gotten used to.

For some reason this all reminds me of the people who roll through my neighborhood with shopping carts, collecting people's recycling on garbage day. There is is, neatly placed curbside in their collection bins. Why SHOUDLN'T these people take it and go make a buck off of it? "I mean...huh? It's free. Go for it." Right?

Well... these shopping cart types do bug me a bit, for the following reasons. Let's see if there's any comparison to the Ghetto Latte people.

A) The shopping cart fuckers make a lot of noise, waking us all up. I would imagine the ghetto latte people create more than their share of inconvenience by taking longer and emptying the half & half whenever they come in. That sucks for everyone just a little bit more. Minor inconvenience to others: CHECK.

B) The shopping cart fuckers believe they're just getting "free money from the system" and probably think of themselves as much cleverer than the rest of us working stiffs, but what they're doing is making the recycling system less efficient and more costly. Materials that homeowners are willing to sort and set out for nothing suddenly cost money to get back into the system. This makes recycled materials more expensive, and the process itself more expensive to operate. It basically fucks everyone just that little bit more so some sleazebag can pat himself on the back for getting a tiny bit of "free money." Similarly, with enough people cleverly sucking down 10 times their expected share of half & half to save a buck, prices are eventually bound to go up, screwing everyone else that little bit more. People think they can get something for free from "the system" because they think of themselves as outside that system, or above it, but it eventually just costs us all a little bit more. Driving up costs for everyone: CHECK.

C) The shopping cart fuckers make a mess. They don't just take some of the recycling. They rifle through the bins, taking some and leaving the rest willy-nilly. I'm sure that mixing a latte at the milk bar involves more than the usual share of spills and splashes. Making a mess: CHECK.

So in short, people who do this are like those shopping cart recycling scavengers we all love so much. Congrats. You're smarter than the rest of us and getting something for free. Haha! You're on your way to riches and glory. I wonder why these enterprising people generally look like fucking bums....?

A patron requests water to drink. With "lots of extra lemons". Patron proceeds to squeeze lemons into water, then uses all the Equal/Splenda/Sweet'n'Low packets on the table to sweeten the concoction. Voila. Free lemonade.

This was actually RECOMMENDED and marked BEST ANSWER in a recent AskMe thread. If you want to find a bunch of cheapshits to hate on, I highly recommend that thread. My personal favorite was the person who said to "get stuff from freecycle then sell it on ebay."

Yeah, no doubt. That thread totally rubbed me the wrong way--and I've eaten out of goddamn dumpsters.

To me, ghetto is like cunt. Sure, it's used in a sort of wryly ironic sort of way, by people who aren't really being as racist or sexist as they sound, but yeah, I get a twinge every time I hear it. Sure, maybe that's my problem, but it's a problem I share with lots of folks.

Don't care if I (and others like me) think you're a racist? Fine--ghetto ghetto ghetto all day long. But you'll sound like a cunt.

Hey - racism itself is a problem shared by a lotta folks! That doesn't legitimate it :)

they pay less in wages because their staff only work as baristas, and don't serve tables.

They pay at least market wages for hourly employees, plus health care.

Thank you. It's always amazed me how much false information is thrown around about starbucks. Maybe when something is hated it's easier to believe any negative thing without checking it out to make sure it's true.

what's in that half and half, blessed angel shit?

That'd be two bucks extra.

I was actually in a Starbucks once and underneath the menu board was a small sign saying "ADD POWER $1" So I asked for a frappucino with telekinesis.

I was actually in a Starbucks once and underneath the menu board was a small sign saying "ADD POWER $1" So I asked for a frappucino with telekinesis.

OK, that's funny.

And I'll wave the white flag on use of the word "ghetto". Sorry if it offended anyone. I personally don't see it as being anywhere near as offensive as "cunt", but I also understand that my opinion is just that: one man's limited opinion. I'll defer to the majority. (Ya buncha self-righteous, censorious cunts.)

And now I'm going to track down whoever made that lemonade suggestion in the AskMe thread and beat them to death with a tire iron.

You wanna save some money? DRINK WATER, OR DON'T EAT OUT TO BEGIN WITH, YOU CHEAP FUCK.

There. I feel better now.

(I learned the word "ghetto" as a modifier from a black person. Does that make it okay?)

There are rules, sometimes. In my city (and many) once a soda can is in the city's recycling bin, it belongs to the city sanitation department and taking it is theft. (Along the same lines, I once scavenged a bunch of flattened cardboard boxes from a dumpster in a hurried move, only to find the dumpster chained and padlocked the next day when I needed a few more ...)

I've known some cheapskates. My favorite is one of my best friends from college who would go on these multi-hour 2 a.m. bull sessions at a coffee dive off campus, but would never tip. His excuse was that we always got lousy service (there was often only one waitress on duty), so why tip? Of course, why did we get lousy service? Because students don't tip. Uh ....

This "ghetto latte" business, though, is more in a gray area. I've known people who've stocked up on ketchup or sugar packets. The worst I've personally done is a pile of napkins, only for car use.

Hey, I'm no censor. And I agree that 'ghetto' isn't as offensive as 'cunt.' And I don't like picking fights with people I like and respect, especially when it seems unlikely that anyone will change their mind. But, upthread, I called 'ghetto' a racist/sexist/classist/x-ist code word, and, honestly, I think that's how people usually use it these days. Some guy, sampled on a rap album, says 'we are in the ghetto, but we are not of the ghetto,' and that kinda speaks to how I feel about it. Now, watch this drive. Uh, that is, please enjoy these mp3s:

Susan Cadogan - In the Ghetto
Rob Swift - The Ghetto

One more, because I'm a big fan:

Rob Swift - A Ghetto Poem

they pay less in wages because their staff only work as baristas, and don't serve tables.

They pay at least market wages for hourly employees, plus health care.

Thank you. It's always amazed me how much false information is thrown around about starbucks.

I actually knew that [my SIL manages a Starbucks], and I admire the fact that they're one of the very, very few national chains that makes health insurance available to hourly workers who work as few as 20 hours a week. But I think my point still stands - they are paid as baristas. If Starbucks had to add to their labor costs by providing more hours so they could execute table service, or fill small creamer pots, it would cost Starbucks even more - especially if they kept their committment to providing an hourly wage and healthcare. Starbucks definitely saves money by having only counter service and making the additions self-serve. If they were more concerned about controlling food cost (as they might be if it were a bigger budget line item - compared to labor, it's not) they'd have the staff dole out the cream.

And I agree with occhiblu -- the "poor man's" is not really a latte, it's iced espresso with a bunch of half-and-half. A latte is milk that has been steamed until warm and then combined with a shot of espresso, and topped with a very thin layer of foam (just enough to make a pretty design in!). It's not a cappucino, so you don't want the milk to froth. It's not made with half-and-half. I don't know if there is any such thing as a traditional way to make an iced latte - I doubt it - but an iced latte isn't what these folks are making anyway. Just heavily creamed iced espresso.

OK, that's funny.

Frightening thing is..I'm not making that up.

While we're at the hatin', here's something we can all love: nosing into the lives of total strangers who are famous. What celebrities order at Starbucks.

(This blog is great, by the way. It's so folkloric and counterhegemonic and everything that Starbucks employees nationwide gather to talk about their occupational knowledge in an informal community. I smell a grande disssertation!)

Don't start frothing at the mouth.

sorry

Also: "Just get laid off? How do you see life after Starbucks?"

At one time I was so in love with my job that I made-over a room in my dollhouse to resemble a starbucks.
Yesterday I took my tiny "be genuine" poster out of my miniature starbucks-themed living room. It was pathetic. Damn I drank the kool-aid, what a "genuine" disappointment.

***

being in a remote location and a native of the nw i can now clearly see why the company is going the direction that it is. Operating costs up? i wonder why perhaps its at the store and partner level that we can help this. save a cup resuse a cup watch you till drawer closer. Imagine over te course of a day if every baristas till was off my just 5.00? and that OKAY? lets see 5x say 1200 baristats x 365 thats over 2.5million dollars a year in lost revenue and the list could go on. every partner uses i venti cup a day say 3 shifts a week x 52 weeks times however many p[artneres we have now. well over 10 MILLION dollars a years spent on partner beverage cups.

Be supportive and understand what Howard is attempting today. rome wasn't built in a day this company wasn't but you Must remember that its only took a short time for it to crumble. We can be a part of this..take action in your store.

***

The Siren is dying, being replaced by the dollar sign.

The culture, which no one who has been in position less than 3 years can REALLY understand, has forever changed, the trust is gone and it is not likely to return.

When you are inside the culture, you can't explain it, when you are outside it you can not understand it. It is like oxygen, you know when it is missing.

Some of the best and brightest are now gone, and with each of them a small part of the HEART of the company went with them...

It was a great ride and a passionate one. We did it for the romance of the coffee. We did it out of pride and legendary care for our partners and customers. We connected, we grew, we prospered.

***

Maybe the phrase 'drank the Kool-Aid' needs to be updated for the new millennium.

*pours free half-and-half in his Kool-Aid*

Bleh! That tastes like CRAP!

How much of that free nutmeg would I have to consume before I started hallucinating?

The shopping cart fuckers believe they're just getting "free money from the system" and probably think of themselves as much cleverer than the rest of us working stiffs,

Is that really a valid comparison, though? I don't know about elsewhere, but all the people with carts doing that I've seen have been homeless, and perhaps mentally ill or addicted to drugs. I don't think it's a "damn the man" thing so much as an "oh boy, tin cans! I get FOOD today!" thing. As opposed to "i'll pay $2 for espresso but damned if they'll squeeze another $1.78 out of me for the milk and foam!" thing.

We had a guy who kept trying to park his cart in our driveway overnight. It's an old portico, so there's a roof and is shielded from the snow. My roommate faithfully pushed it out every night, and he put it back the next. It went on for weeks until he stopped. We felt bad for him, but he was leaving it where it could be seen from the street, and both worried it would be like hanging a "hobos welcome here" shingle. I, particularly, didn't want to come home and find some hoovertown set up in my driveway while I fumbled with my housekeys.

So, you go into Whole foods, and they have these plates of cheese, and chips, and stuff that they have for samples for people to try. So, you eat all the plates clean, then you decide you don't want to buy anything anyways, so you leave. Hell, they're just a huge corporation, they won't miss it.

Any way people want to justify things in their own mind is OK I guess.

I knew one guy that figured the price of a newspaper was really just the price to open the door. Putting a stack of the papers on top of it was just fine. Hey, he was getting "the man".

As far as hating everyone, you sorry folks are late to the game. I've been hating everyone for a long long time. Starting with the person I hate the most, myself.

Oh yeah, and I hate you all, mainly because eyeballkid doesn't post here*.
He doesn't need to - I fill in for him here.

I'm not fooled by the gruff exterior, dg.

You know you're a privileged american/european when you have time to bitch about how much milk someone else puts in their coffee.