garbled political theory, not a gabled one.

Anne of Green Garbles, man!

But both seeme to take the idealistic visions of the hippie/left/whatever movement as good and true as a given.

I think you're right overall, but specifically with idealism, I kinda think that thinking it's good and true as a given goes with the territory.

My ultimate point that where the baby boom members of your family stood may have a lot to do with where you stand culturally and politically now, or at the very least where your sympathies lie or where sentimental tugs come in.

Yeah, my parents were boomers and I'm guessing yours are (or were) as well, jonmc. I think it's normal for us to take on some of our parent's philosophies. My parents, especially my father was and is very patriotic and very pro-American. I always was very patriotic. I love my country with all its flaws. I'm sentimental about it. I do consider myself liberal and I was raised by parents that were similar to yours. I only became more liberal when I started to mature and make decisions for myself. I do find myself getting a little annoyed by people on the extreme left. I'm annoyed at people that are on the extreme side of anything, as probably most people are, so that doesn't say much.

Lori, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Sometimes when I'm dealing with the children of hippie/leftie parents, and I see a smirk about some matter of politics or taste, I feel like saying 'I didn't have your head start, I actually had something to rebel against.'

My husband was raised my liberals. He's a liberal to this day. As an adult I think it would be nice to agree with more of my parents' viewpoints instead of disagreeing with them. I feel like an outsider sometimes. A very frustrated outsider. But we can still agree on some things, which is nice.

Sometimes I find myself getting annoyed by wealthy, academic, liberal Connecticut types that never attended public schools and never worked a day in their life. They did work and it's not fair of me to judge them in such a way, but sometimes I do. It's because of my upbringing and circumstances. I can't identify. Usually I try to understand, but occasionally when I'm reading some snobby Vanity Fair or Vogue piece, I find myself muttering, "get real".

My ultimate point that where the baby boom members of your family stood may have a lot to do with where you stand culturally and politically now

Wait, what? People's political views are influenced by those of their parents? That's unpossible!

dersins: what I'm saying is that those of the baby boom generation may be influencing the false dichotomy of today's politics more than others. Try not to let your dislike for me cloud your judgement.

This isn't a gabled political theory! There's barely a cupola here!

I'm not entirely sure I understand everything you're saying here, but thought I'd way in with some uninformed sociological putterings:

It's interesting that you point to the boomers as the seed of peoples world view. I started off thinking like dersins. However, I'm not sure if the boomer influence is there because of time, (we're at an age where our parents were boomers), because there are so many of them or because they actually embodied a new world order. I'm also not that sure it's important except as an indicator of specific new behavoural traits that we've managed to inherit.

There's an English saying that goes along the lines that you inherit the class your parents put themselves in. If your parents were working class and by sheer force of will and fantasy managed to convince themselves into a middle class environment, then you would end up authentically middle class. I've actually seen this happen to a degree, and although it's not 100%, I've some sympathy with the theory.

I think this matches your theory quite well. If a bunch of sixties kids forced themselves into environments where they pretended that they were all nice and liberal and into free love man, it's possible that there children ended up closer to the reality their parents were pushing for. The weird thing here is that these second generation hippie may properly embody the aspirational values their parents mimicked. It'll be interesting to see if this is the case.

On a personal level... I grew up poor in the middle of nowhere & more than anything, these two things have completely influenced my politics, ethics and cultural sensibilities. (Although the choice of books offered by the mobile library that provided my main source of cultural information probably had a big hand in it too). The hippie leanings I have come in no way from my parents or my early environment.

Also, I tend to attribute the more idealistic visions of the world with generation Y. I'd say that our cynicism, etc are a product of age, except for the fact that we've always been this way. I'm not sure why this is.

Gosh - this is turning into a meandering old weird thing. Apologies.
I'm just turning this over, and one thing that does stand out to me is that the most truly hippyish person I know was bought up in the idealistic way you talk about, but her brother (th black sheep of the family) is a personal trainer with a distinctly un-hippyish outlook on life.

Gah. Anyway jon. Don't worry about it. You're a cynical old fucker who can't work out who he is, and I wouldn't trade three* of you for that idealistic sprat with the go-gettum attitude and the worryingly naive view of the world.

* - It would have been more than three, but there's no way I'm forgiving you your love of Bruce Springsteen. Upbringing be damned. That's just wrong

p.p.s. Damn - I say interesting too much. Gah!

However, I'm not sure if the boomer influence is there because of time, (we're at an age where our parents were boomers), because there are so many of them or because they actually embodied a new world order.

Well, here in the US, it's mainly because there are so damned many of them that they'll probably bankrupt all the new deal/great society programs that they dominate the political process so much. so, it stands to reason that they'd culturally/psychically dominate, too.

It would have been more than three, but there's no way I'm forgiving you your love of Bruce Springsteen.

Heh. Musically, he's a matter of taste, but his hearts in the right place, you gotta give him that.

If your parents were working class and by sheer force of will and fantasy managed to convince themselves into a middle class environment, then you would end up authentically middle class. I've actually seen this happen to a degree, and although it's not 100%, I've some sympathy with the theory.

Dead on, although class boundaries in the US are more diffuse.

Oh and dude - head start?? Give me the ability to get a job, not fret over the tiny little things, not blame the system for everything & actually do something useful over vegan cooking, liking the smell of wood smoke & being able to say nice things about the pretentious shit my friends call art any day of the god-damned week.

I mean - I like the hippies and everything, but damn. My life is a whole lot better for not being trapped in the decaying pattatullie, fake-dreadlocked, colourful trousered life of one of them.

Hippies are like certainty. Comfortable, but ultimately dangerous.

</rant>

pretentious shit my friends...

I'd like to make it clear that these are hypothetical friends of hippies, and in no way represent my actual friends who are all extremely good artists and who, despite certain naive hippyish tendencies, are not the subject of my possibly ill-informed rant.

My life is a whole lot better for not being trapped in the decaying pattatullie, fake-dreadlocked, colourful trousered life of one of them.

Yeah, I know what you're saying/ There's a kid I work with, not a bad kid* (he's the child of math and physics professors), but after this incident, he said 'those people are paid to clean it up,' and I wanted to punch him in the mouth.

*he also works in the rare book room of our store, whereas I work at the buying desk. The running joke is that if our store was a hospital, he works in the morgue where I work in the ER.