Prolonged staring and a look that which clearly says "you're nothing more than your vagina"--as opposed to "I think you're cute"; and I think all women know the difference -- I consider harassment. Looking at pictures in fashion or girlie magazines in the privacy of your own home is not. There's an old Dykes to Watch Out For strip (the collections will be reprinted soon)in which a man who came in to drool over the lesbian erotica instead of buying it was put in his place.

What brujita said. Someone looking at you is far far different from someone staring you down. You know this difference too if you think about it. So yes the phrasig is correct. I've changed bus stops/had to walk away when I've been stared at, it makes one very uncomfortable. It's the kind of stare that you feel even when your back is turned.

Also, I don't think teenage boys are capable of this stare unless you were two seconds away from yelling "Heeeey, mamacita, you'e hot" or something.

And if it does, does that mean that looking at the pictures of the models and the other women in those fashion magazines would be considered as the same thing,

You're not serious, are you? You, a grown man, seriously can't figure out the difference between openly gawking at a woman on the street and looking at pictures in a magazine?

. . . gazing at them to be some form of Sexual Harassment?
[And] looking at the pictures of the models and the other women in those fashion magazines would be considered as the same thing[?]

We all look. It's also nice to be seen. But I don't think anyone wants to be in a situation where the being seen becomes intrusive; as dabitch said, "[as] nothing more than a vagina."

Casually noticing a beautiful woman or man on the street is part of the human condition. But penetrating stares that are clearly another person's means to, sort of, visually get off, are entirely another matter.

This time of year I like sitting in the park with lunch and a good book. The park is on the water and it can be very relaxing. But the park is also a real cursing place. It becomes almost scary, at times, because these guys are not just noticing a person they find attractive. They have a motive that the object of their lust can feel. In fact, It is rather a threatening experience. And when it feels threatening I have to begin to ask myself if I am being harassed.

My opinion, Hadj, is that it comes down to your intent. When we're young men, goggling at a pretty person in a magazine, there is no intent to actually make a real-life connection with the person pictured. The persons image is, well, completely objectified as sexual. But objectifying a man or woman in that way, in person, is another matter. No one wants to be in a situation where they are though of or treated as if they are nothing more than a sexual thing.

(Well, okay, sometimes a person might want to be a secual object, but that's another issue.)

brujita made that perfect comment, though I wish I had because that's exactly. it and it is threatening. This is important to understand. Casually noticing the bounce in her walk, her smile, or the hair of a woman passing by is not threatening. When you are thinking "ah, she looks happy, I love those pretty dimples she gets when she smiles" you're not sending out a threatening vibe. When you're thinking "I would like that mouth to [redacted because it's gross]" then you're sending out another vibe enterily. You KNOW this don't you?

Wanking off too girls in magazines has nothing to do with oogling girls in the street.

Also - when your gaze is noticed and the gazee doesn't know your intent she'll meet your eye (in the western world) to check it. Just this I've been caught looking too long at a girl here in Sweden (where gazes are kept much shorter than in any other land because we simply do not look at each other - it's a strange thing) because she struck me as so dang pretty and the sun fell like golden sparkles in her hair and I couldn't tear my eyes away after the initial: "check - she's pretty, I like those shoes". She looked up and saw me, and I smiled and averted my eyes as the visual "ooops, sorry", but as I averted them, she cracked a smile back knowing full well that my looking at her was a pure compliment of "You look really pretty today".

Just this week. Bah. She might have reacted differently had I been an old man and not a young mother walking hand in hand with her daughter.

Don't you have gorgeous sisters (and thus by pure deduction, a really pretty mom as well) Hadjiboy? They can probably explain it better than I can, I mean what it is like in the Indian setting. (I've never been to India.) Like I said, over here plain looking at people is considered quite rude, even when there is no intent at all.

I was at a baseball game the other day, standing in line for hot dogs. The guy in line in front of me looked at every single woman that walked by in the same way: "look at her boobs as she approaches, drop down to her ass as she walks away".

Really, dude? Really? Every woman? Even girls too young to drive? (but apparently not too young to be ogled) And it's not like he was being subtle about it - his head swung ponderously back and forth as women would walk by. Yeah, I found that intrusive, and I know some other women noticed, too.

When I grow up I'm going to be one of those little old ladies made out titanium with a little cane who looks all fragile and harmless but then whacks guys like that over the head.

(I was once saved by a little old lady like that when a guy groped me. God bless old ladies.)

Also in that link that taz had provided there are a lot of stories about flashing. I was flashed while trying to chomp down on a quarter pounder cheese at McDonalds on new years eve once. HAPPY FRICKIN NEW YEAR!

treated as if they are nothing more than a sexual thing

Huh? That's assuming a lot. A sexy woman, who I would like to [redacted], with a good sense of style and looks like she's probably intelligent what with the book bag, and the bright face, and mmmmm-mm check that juicy [redacted].

Things seem much less uptight in Eastern Europe. Women are dressing to be seen, (at least the ones that attract my attention), so looking is not anything unusual.

There's a mile of difference between being seen and being harassed (by being seen), frankly. I've never been able to explain this difference to someone who hasn't felt both types of looks on them. This is me officially giving up trying.

You, a grown man, seriously can't figure out the difference between openly gawking at a woman on the street and looking at pictures in a magazine?

No, cmonkey--I can't--because in the culture that I grew up in, it was considered a sin to look at women in any sort of a scenario, so it did not matter if she were being safely portrayed in the pages of a magazine.

But let's just take that thought and elaborate it for a minute shall we? Now, I consider myself to be an odd case because having grown up with the kind of pressure that I was under to be "good" meant that it was very hard for me to come to terms with the kinds of feelings I started to feel for women when I hit that age of puberty that we all go through. At first I didn't know what the hell was happening to me, and then, before you knew it--I couldn't stop doing what you know I must've been doing. And, you know something--I would always feel so horribly guilty afterwards--as if I'd violated that woman in the picture some way. So I would try and find ways around it; I'd say to myself--okay, no fantasizing about any woman that you don't think you're really in love with, and then it's okay, because if you're in love with her then who knows--maybe in that fantasy that you're playing out you can be husband and wife, or maybe even someone who would be serious about marrying that woman, and so it would be alright to have a little bit of fun with her, and we could fool around all we wanted.

But even then, there were periods that I became exposed to all manner of things which I had no idea about--women being exploited in all manner of ways for the enjoyment of a man's eyes, and his penis. Now are you saying that that kind of a thing is okay just because you're not able to do it to someone who you can actually see and notice on the street.

Why is that so? Why are we allowed to be perverts in the seclusion of our houses or rooms and then be expected to act like upstanding young men on the street. Don't you think there's some kind of a disconnect there? Wouldn't you rather try and control your urges in privacy as well so that it doesn't filter out into your personal life.

From what I've read, EVERYONE who grows up with conservative religion has your experience hadjiboy, not just Muslims.

One satisfies their urges in private so that they DON'T filter out in public.

Also it doesn't matter how one is dressed; NO ONE likes being kissy-noised, leered at, rubbed against et al by strangers in public.

I've never been able to explain this difference to someone who hasn't felt both types of looks on them.

You know something--it's just so hard for men to go through that kind of thing, where they experience both ends of the spectrum.

I mean I know how intimidating it can be to have a stranger stare at you, and you wondering what this guy might end up doing to you, but I have no idea how it feels to have a man (or even a woman) look at me in a non-threatening way--not including my family or friends at least--and feel as if it's some kind of a compliment.

One satisfies their urges in private so that they DON'T filter out in public.

Yes but there are people who actually avoid doing this because it's such a slippery slope once you get on it that it can be quite difficult for you to find your balance after awhile, and you are caught up in it so inexplicably that there's always that next kick you'll need to take things to a newer high that you haven't experienced before, which makes me wonder how far it is from taking that next step of experimenting with it in the real world?

Why is that so? Why are we allowed to be perverts in the seclusion of our houses or rooms and then be expected to act like upstanding young men on the street. Don't you think there's some kind of a disconnect there? Wouldn't you rather try and control your urges in privacy as well so that it doesn't filter out into your personal life.

People should act like upstanding people in public (and it certainly applies to all genders) because aggressively displaying sexual attraction in public is more often than not rude, degrading, and possibly threatening. But masturbating in private, which by its very nature causes the person that you are looking at or thinking about to be objectified as a sexual object, is a critical function for human life and there's no reason to control that urge.

So yes, it's perfectly possible to be sexually attracted to women you see in your life, think about what they look like naked, go home and think further upon it, and still treat them with dignity and respect and equality in a non-threatening way.

You know something--it's just so hard for men to go through that kind of thing, where they experience both ends of the spectrum.

My response was more to Meatbomb who said that (some) women were dressing to be seen. When I put on my cheerleading outfit, it is because I'm going to practice, not to be seen - but to someone else it's their teenage girl cheerleader fantasy walking past. Same thing when I wear a slim skirt that stops halfway down my calf and heels, I'm trying to look professional - but to some observers, I'm the sexy secretary fantasy walking by. Any woman with a larger than B-cup bust knows that any type of top - any - is "dressing them to be seen" as curves will show through blouses, turtlenecks, t-shirts and anything with V-neck becomes "deep cleavage" even when it is not. A flowery flowing light dress in the summer because I think it's pretty is not me dressing up o be your farm girl fantasy. Leave us alone, we're just getting dressed. Unless she's wearing the latest la perle or latex and posing a red shop window, do not leer.

Ok fine, NOW I'm done.

So yes, it's perfectly possible to be sexually attracted to women you see in your life, think about what they look like naked, go home and think further upon it, and still treat them with dignity and respect and equality in a non-threatening way.

Yes, but do you think that it's something that they would be comfortable with--knowing that you as a friend is going to go home and wank off to what they look like naked?

Oh, I knew you weren't addressing me up there dabitch; I just wanted you to know that I understood what you were saying and knew how frustrating it could be, and at the same time trying to explain why it might be hard for a lot of/most guys to know what a woman has to go through in those sorts of situations because they're lucky to have never gone through anything even remotely related to it.

I hope you didn't think anything of it.

PS. You shouldn't have to feel like saying "Ok fine, NOW I'm done" all the time.;)

People, with fairly rare exceptions, probably wouldn't be comfortable knowing that you're going home and wanking off to what they look like naked. But how would they know for sure unless you tell them? Don't tell them.

Yes, but do you think that it's something that they would be comfortable with--knowing that you as a friend is going to go home and wank off to what they look like naked?

Start going down that road, and you start living every second of every day trying not to do anything that might offend other people. Ever get mad at somebody? Think someone's outfit is ugly? Wonder how someone could be so stupid? They probably wouldn't like that either.

But how would they know for sure unless you tell them? Don't tell them.

C'mon ladies--I know for a fact that you're wayyyyyyy more intuitive than that! And besides, haven't we already made it clear that guys like to look at the pictures of women (mental or otherwise) in the privacy of their homes and fantasize about them...?

Pink, those are two different things in my mind--getting angry at someone, thinking that they don't dress well, or if they're smart enough or not (although who the hell am I to judge that being a high school drop out)--and maybe doing something that's much more intimate with a person that you may have gained the trust of aren't in the same league I feel. Especially if that person is your friend... would you think all those things that you mentioned about a person who you know, and really like???

Alright, it's getting late, and I have to go for work; I've got the graveyard shift again (12 to 9AM)--whoopie!

maybe doing something that's much more intimate with a person

But it's not. It's in your head. Intimacy requires two people.

would you think all those things that you mentioned about a person who you know, and really like???

Of course I would. The people I know are the first people I judge, because they're the ones I know things about.

The people I know are the first people I judge, because they're the ones I know things about.

Really--I try and do the opposite:P

Man, I'm scared to know what you think of me now!!! (Don't you ever tell me though--I wouldn't want to know!!)

But it's not. It's in your head. Intimacy requires two people.

Yes, but would it be alright if say your loved one was thinking about another woman and fantasizing about her? Would it be okay as long as it was in his head and not being done practically??

Don't you ever tell me though--I wouldn't want to know!!

Exactly. That's why there's a whole realm of thoughts about other people we keep to ourselves, because we don't want to know. I don't want to know, so I get why other people wouldn't want to know, either.

Plus, I think I should mention that those thoughts do not fully represent how I feel about people. I can think someone's shirt is ugly, but still love them and think they're a beautiful person. Which is why I keep the thing about the shirt to myself.

Yes, but would it be alright if say your loved one was thinking about another woman and fantasizing about her?

As long as he doesn't tell me about it and it doesn't affect my life in any other way, I think that's fine.

Yep, I agree with TPS. It's a good thing she types quickly because it saves me the effort. :)

Yes, but do you think that it's something that they would be comfortable with--knowing that you as a friend is going to go home and wank off to what they look like naked?

A functioning society requires secrets and little lies. That is one of those secrets.

Yes, but would it be alright if say your loved one was thinking about another woman and fantasizing about her? Would it be okay as long as it was in his head and not being done practically??

Everyone fantasizes about people who aren't their partner, and everyone is aware of that - it's part of being an adult.

Now, personally, I don't much like finding out what those fantasies are if they don't involve me. The one time I did, my girlfriend at the time was writing about fucking her old drug dealer and I was kinda grossed out. Never had the curiosity since.

C'mon ladies--I know for a fact that you're wayyyyyyy more intuitive than that!

Actually, women aren't mind readers. I've got lots of close male friends, and I always have. I know intellectually that a few of them probably have fantasized about me when they jerk off, but I couldn't tell you which ones.

Yes, but my whole point is how long does it take for you to transition that thought of the shirt being ugly into an actual physical vibe that you might send off accidentally and not even be aware of?

That would certainly cause the person in question to feel hurt.

I know what you're saying TPS, but it's something that's a very gray area I feel, and hence all the confusion...

Okay, now I'm really late! (I'll try and follow this up from work or after I come back).

Actually, women aren't mind readers

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you were mind-readers, but that you weren't so clueless not to know what guys think of from time to time, as you've noted about some of your male friends.

Looking is pretty broad. Like above, it depends on how they do it... and who it is done to.
A friend of mine once recalled a story of walking through a parking lot with her mom, oblivious to the world, when all the sudden her mom screamed "SHE'S TWELVE YEARS OLD, YOU PERV!" to some random dude who had been apparently checking her out.

I don't mind if I notice some guy just looking. It happens. Shoot, I've caught myself doing it.
But some guy staring, like he's trying to see what flowers are represented in the lace of my bra... though a sweater and wool coat.

women being exploited in all manner of ways for the enjoyment of a man's eyes

Here's the thing... women in adult magazines, porn, etc. They know what they signed up for. They made the decision. It's not exploiting since it isn't like they signed up to model for the Gap and, oh, oopps, it's actually for Teenage Gang Bangers 10.
When the average woman goes outside to run errands, go to work, etc... she hasn't signed up to be gawked at, oogled, etc. She's just living her life. And unlike the women in mags, she's certanly not getting paid for it.

women in adult magazines, porn, etc. They know what they signed up for. They made the decision. It's not exploiting...

I'd argue with that; in a system that's stacked against women's financial equality and bodily autonomy, I think porn tends to offer a "choice" that's really not a choice ("Exploit yourself or we'll exploit you anyway").

But I think that exploitation happens mostly at the production level, not the consumption level. Though of course the one can't exist without the other, so we're back in a vicious circle.

I'd argue with that; in a system that's stacked against women's financial equality and bodily autonomy, I think porn tends to offer a "choice" that's really not a choice ("Exploit yourself or we'll exploit you anyway").

I think on that level it could go either way, but we really can't argue that they walked in the door expecting to do a high fashion shoot or doing gallery-quality work. They knew it was porn, it wasn't a shock, someone didn't sneak up behind them, snatch their clothes off, stick a dick in their mouth, and snap a photo before they knew what happened.

I personally don't like the "porn exploits women" mentality, though, since it seems to imply that we're so fragile we need someone to protect us from our own poor decisions. If having sex on camera is enough to qualify as exploiting, well, there are men involved, too. (and they get paid a lot less).

but that you weren't so clueless not to know what guys think of from time to time, as you've noted about some of your male friends

Uh, I know because sometimes I fantasize about them, in return, and I assume that I'm not some sort of freak. I don't see how it should affect our face-to-face interactions.

I personally don't like the "porn exploits women" mentality, though, since it seems to imply that we're so fragile we need someone to protect us from our own poor decisions.

I think you have to take it up a level from there, though. It's not that I have to be protected from my decisions; it's a question of how my choice are already limited by a society that values my sexual capacity more than anything else about me, and has let me know that in explicit ways since before I was conscious enough to remember.

It's not "poor decisions" as much as it is "limited choices," I guess is what I'm trying to say.

People should act like upstanding people in public

Unless they're drunk and unable to stand up.

a society that values my sexual capacity more than anything else about me,

Nothing personal, but it's a pretty huge leap to assume society values you at all. There's billions of people on the planet. We're all pretty much insignificant.

Hadjiboy, you're breaking my heart.

I grew up as a conservative christian fundamentalist, so I know that feeling of worrying that even your lustful thoughts are somehow inherently corrupting and signs of moral/spiritual failure, and I remember how being in that state of constant shame and doubt is a psychological hell I wouldn't wish on anyone.

I don't buy the slippery-slope argument at all. It's something someone (or some religious authority) made up to scare you. If the slippery-slope argument were correct, the vast majority of us would have been locked away before we reached 20.

Give yourself a break. You're human.

Hey treepour, nah--I didn't mean it like that. Obviously we're not going to turn into sex starved feinds who are going to do something to get us locked up in jail--I was talking more along the lines of my own experiences with this sort of stuff--like porn, which started off innocently enough, but before long turned into a pretty unhealthy obsession. (The slippery slope came into play when what I was watching didn't seem to be satisfying me anymore, and I needed to find more intense stuff to fulfil my fantasies.)

Uh, I know because sometimes I fantasize about them, in return, and I assume that I'm not some sort of freak.

Sorry muddgirl, that wasn't what I'd meant to imply, and if I did--I apologize. (All I was saying was that I feel much more confident now to be around women knowing that I'm not going to be thinking about them in the way I used to, so it's more of a personal thing I guess?)

occhiblu:

It’s also crucial to remember that pornography is about money. “Thinking XXX” touches on how difficult it is to evaluate porn stars’ feelings about their professional choices when they are so inextricably linked to economics. Adrian Nicole LeBlanc, a journalist whose work focuses on topics such as prostitution and impoverished youth, reminds us that sexual power is tied to economic survival in the lives of poor, uneducated women. Hartley reinforces this point by saying that, for most of these women, it’s not a choice between porn and Harvard, but between porn and the trailer park. The most intriguing observation in the documentary comes from Faye Wattleton, the first African-American president of Planned Parenthood, when she argues that society feels threatened by pornography because of its inability to control it.

link (a bit nsfw)

Women are dressing to be seen

I like to dress to be seen. I know people look at me. My only rule is that if someone is going to leer I had better not catch them.