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13 June 2008

it's so very complicated... →[More:]

Source article [NY Times}

..."Dad dresses the children wrong and diapers them wrong and sends inadequate thank-you notes and leaves the house a mess. This may look like a cranky power struggle, Deutsch says, but the dynamic, which sociologists call “gatekeeping,” also reflects social pressures.

Women, she says, know that the world is watching and judging. If the toddler’s clothes don’t match, if the thank-you notes don’t get written, if the house is a shambles, it is seen as her fault, making her overly invested in the outcome. Many women will also admit to the frisson of superiority, of a particular form of gratification, when they are the more competent parent..."

And so on and on, around it goes. Great article that illustrates why gender roles in parenting and hetero relationships can cause so much stress if we allow them to dictate our workload / actions. There's a nod in that article as well to the perception that (regardless of what it is) the woman's career is "always more flexible" - they frame this as an internal decision from both partners, but I would also posit that society (the woman's management / company) ALSO considers a woman to be "the more expendable employee), thus they are likely to preemptively make that decision FOR her (by paying her less, by not promoting her, on and on it goes). It's such a complex issue.

This concept, in context with the NYT article (was that last week? - crap, can't find the link) that was FPP'd here about how homosexual married couples can and should serve as relationship role models for ALL married couples illustrates (what I believe to be) the elephant in the room...

Social / peer pressure and historical baggage and how that relates to gender roles. Okay, so I'm not diminishing the hardships in a gay marriage/committed relationship in any way. However, it does sound as though (in some fairly crucial ways) a homosexual couple does have an advantage, be it housekeeping, parenting, or just keeping the relationship grounded, because they HAVE very little to no preconceived societal baggage (either internal or external) that dictates "how this all should work".

Discuss (if all this isn't tl;dr).

post by: lonefrontranger at: 10:24 | 20 comments

I'll admit that dad was 'doing it wrong' when baby was a wee fragile 3-month bundle, not for lack or trying to do it right though. It was my overprotectiveness that was kicking into high gear , I was fully aware of it and articulated that to him, and as she got older (and more robust - ie; could sit up and so on) dad did just as well as I did.

posted by dabitch 13 June | 10:32

That article last week and this one made me remember a friend a long time ago, discussing relationships with a gay couple she knew. They had a great relationship, and she said "If I ever get married, I want someone like you!"

"He'd be gay," they said.

"Well, I can live without some things!"

So, yeah. It's actually easier on me to be considered a lesbian (I'm not particularly feminine) because then people aren't concentrating on what I'm wearing, my hair, etc. Women aren't seeing me as a rival (or danger, interestingly) and the guys aren't seeing me as a potential conquest. It makes them listen to me as if I were a human being.

Which is kind of the point - and what everyone really wants.

Back to baggage - hard to escape that, no matter who you are. It's just not gender based. It may make it harder to find, but I wouldn't know.

posted by lysdexic 13 June | 10:49

It IS a complex issue, and it saddens me to read stuff like, "Women are paid less in the workplace because, duh, they don't WANT to work! They want to stay home and raise the chillun!"

Well, yes, that's technically factual, but it doesn't answer the base question, which is why?

MuddDude and I have always tried really hard not to bring social baggage into our domestic life - it helps that neither of us "fit" our gender roles very well in the first place. But still, there's unconscious stuff that comes up all the time, and it's hard to frame it as "MuddDude and MuddGirl problem" rather than "Man vs. Woman problem".

On preview: yeah, I get what lysdexic is saying. We've all got baggage, it's just that straight people can blame their baggage on 'societal pressure', rather than on their parents, if they choose.
But still, it seems so elitist to say, "Oh, we have SO MANY PROBLEMS as a straight couple! You gays have it so easy!" Yeah, that's so not true.

posted by muddgirl 13 June | 11:07

Women, she says, know that the world is watching and judging. If the toddler’s clothes don’t match, if the thank-you notes don’t get written, if the house is a shambles, it is seen as her fault, making her overly invested in the outcome. Many women will also admit to the frisson of superiority, of a particular form of gratification, when they are the more competent parent..."

I'm just quoting again, because, at least in my world, this is absolutely true. Another non-child example is the apartment, just you know, keeping it tidy. Like, I feel like if we have guests, and the place looks shitty they will judge me (not my husband). Why do I feel that way? I have no idea. And it's even less logical when I take into account that it's my husband who does the majority of the cleaning.

But yeah, good article. My last boss, who had two small kids, was dean of the graduate school, and all sorts of other high-powered things (and an excellent scientist) always said to the women in her lab (who were all at that time childless but wanted kids) "if you decide to have kids you have to remember that you are only 50 % of the parental unit - your partner can do just as well as you", and emphasized that over and over, because she knew how hard it was to hand over the power/responsibility with the kid.

posted by gaspode 13 June | 11:08

One mom I know called this dynamic "rescue and resent." But the "rescue" really involved the mom's unrealistic expectations and had nothing to do with anyone else's perceptions.

As a dad, I have been impacted by this, and my parenting skills disparaged. So it's hard to be objective.

lfr, i thought of you today. . I saw a "framesticker" on a bike that said "I wish my boyfriend was as dirty as my bike."

/derail

posted by danf 13 June | 11:15

"But still, it seems so elitist to say, "Oh, we have SO MANY PROBLEMS as a straight couple! You gays have it so easy!" Yeah, that's so not true.

I hope I didn't come off as saying that or latching onto that because the last thing I want to do is find more reasons for people to be shittily chauvinistic or provide an "easy out".

I think what I'm saying is there ARE no "easy outs". Read my title again.

I'm not really sure what my point is, other than (as gaspode says) it bears thinking about. Maybe it is just that we heteros could and maybe even should look to our lesbian/gay partnered friends as a competent template for fair interactions, how to "argue constructively", how to communicate effectively, and how not to judge/blame/pick fights, nag, and make lists. YES they still have many, many problems dumped onto them by society, I never said they didn't. However, the one thing they DON'T have is a bunch of historically freighted preconceived bullshit notions about how they should manage the kids or the housecleaning.

good one danf, and mister lfr is, if anything, even dirtier than any of my bikes. Hee! and I plan to keep it that way...

posted by lonefrontranger 13 June | 11:19

Thanks for posting that, lfr. It was a good article.

What they didn't get into, and what would have been interesting, is the cultural idea that men are always judged by their jobs and earning potential, which I think is the flipside of the "Women are always judged on the state of their children and house" thing. So you've got more societal pressure on women about the cleaning and childcare (and therefore the impulse for women to define their worth as people through those arenas), and more societal pressure on men to have high-paying or high-status jobs (and therefore the impulse for men to define their worth as people through those arenas) -- no wonder there's conflict. It's hard to even get to the point where you realize when that programming is kicking in, where you can realize it's not "natural" to prioritize one aspect of your life over everything else.

posted by occhiblu 13 June | 11:24

(oh, lfr, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was trying to agree with you. )

posted by muddgirl 13 June | 11:30

and how not to judge/blame/pick fights, nag, and make lists.

Oh my good lord, my closest gay male friends are so much worse at this than I am. I mean, the one partner at least gets to escape the gendered bullshit notion that any request that his partner help him with housework is automatically "nagging," but the nitpicky judgmental "You're not doing enough" conversations seems everpresent over there.

I think there's still gender baggage in same-sex relationships (how could there not be?), and it's interesting that the article mentions they've really only studied lesbian relationships -- where, according to traditional gender roles, both partners would be socialized to share and help out and be accommodating, yadda yadda yadda. Which is great for the relationships, I would assume, but they kind of skim over the question of whether those women are happy with their career choices.

They may be, but that goes back to the underlying question they keep pulling up throughout the article -- what's the underlying reason that these women are prioritizing their family over their careers, and is that choice made in a vacuum?

And why didn't the article pose these same questions about that population?

I would imagine gay male parents are certainly also going to start running up against ingrained ideas of "What it means to be a man," and how much diaper-changing and reduced-career-ambitioning fits into that.

posted by occhiblu 13 June | 11:30

"What they didn't get into, and what would have been interesting, is the cultural idea that men are always judged by their jobs and earning potential"

yeah, occhi that's a HUGE one, and it's all wrapped up around the earning potentials of each partner, and how that affects their ability to even have kids / adequately care for them in the first place... and let's not even go into who gets to keep their job. Read the last page of that article about the poor man who had a huge struggle to even FIND a job that would provide his family a fair work/life balance.

See, and that's yet another big thing that gay/lesbian couples don't tend to get automatically dumped on them: all those pre-decided expectations about who gets to take the career hit so they can raise a family.

I know, I know, I'm generalising and not every homosexual / heterosexual couple is the same.

Occhiblu, I've heard that same constant nagging in gay partnered couples... but what I've seen is usually very differently freighted. Gay men tend to bicker and nag WITH their partners rather than AT them, and they generally do so with much more humour and tolerance than all the passive-aggressive venom and resentment I see in the traditional husband/wife dynamic.

posted by lonefrontranger 13 June | 11:36

they generally do so with much more humour and tolerance than all the passive-aggressive venom and resentment I see in the traditional husband/wife dynamic.

Yeah, well.... not so much with my friends.

I love them dearly, and I think they have a very good, strong relationship, but... yeah.

posted by occhiblu 13 June | 11:44

it's cool muddgirl, I didn't mean to go all on the defensive like that either. I was poking the trolls on a local forum yesterday and I think my trolldar's still on high gain. well that and I've had too much coffee.

/resets trolldar to NORMAL mode, eats a bagel

posted by lonefrontranger 13 June | 11:47

This is actually part of the reason I'm uninterested in childbearing. I'm scared of having to juggle natural, biologically prescribed role instincts with undesirable social role pressures, and having to discern between the two in my hormonal heart. Marriage is offputting, a volunteering of affinity for traditional gender structures, an affinity I would spend my energy all my life actively denying in a sort of self-preservation, but motherhood? Fuggeddaboutit!

A while ago, there was a gender identity quiz from BBC that was pretty creative and thorough. contraption and I both scored 50/50. That gave me such pleasure. Having a queer umbrella to stand under really is a relief, even in our hetero relationship. It's funny how intellectualism and sexuality seem to be the only things that can excuse a girl from tidiness, but to a person, I can tell you who in my life leans on one or the other of those in judging me on the whole more responsible than they would otherwise.

Now, if I could just figure out how not to overreact to the slight pressures of gender judgment, or to present my compelling "MY FIREWOOD COLLECTING SKILLS ARE ADEQUATE, stand down" argument as prescient and political, not just moody.

posted by Ambrosia Voyeur 13 June | 14:49

Oh the first part of AV's comment reminds me that I've told off two of my male colleagues in the past few weeks for talking about how they "babysat" their children over the weekend. It's not fucking babysitting if it's your own child! It's parenting! Nobody would ever suggest that a woman is "babysitting" if she's looking after her kid/s while her male partner is off doing something else!

/particular pet peeve

posted by gaspode 13 June | 14:53

"This is actually part of the reason I'm uninterested in childbearing."

that would be the primary reason for me, AV. fortunately (and that's why we're hitched) the mister is very much on the same page with this.

geezus, gaspode... maybe thank your lucky stars you don't have to live with those guys, right?

posted by lonefrontranger 13 June | 15:17

What's less clear is whether dads--at least as a group--have done a good enough job to deserve the honor.

Happy Father's Day, bunnies.

posted by danostuporstar 13 June | 16:58

Wow, maybe it's a good thing that both Mrs. Doohickie and myself are both slobs. She has a saying, "They're coming to see me, not my house."

(Be ready for it, if by chance you ever get invited to Camp Doohickie!)

posted by Doohickie 13 June | 21:10

...a homosexual couple does have an advantage, be it housekeeping...

Not to mention the fact that all the gay men I know are already anal neat freaks to begin with. Housekeeping must be effortless for couples.
;-) /stereotyping

posted by shane 13 June | 23:52

It's not fucking babysitting if it's your own child! It's parenting!

Ugh, I fuckin HATE HATE HATE this. Any man proclaiming to babysit his own kids (usually in a "look what I did, aren't I good? Pat me on the head" kind of way) should be lined up and shot.

juggle natural, biologically prescribed role instincts with undesirable social role pressures, and having to discern between the two in my hormonal heart.

Made even harder when the social expectations become policy - my partner and I both work flexibly, so we can both work around the kids, but only after the first year (as he only gets two weeks leave but I get a year). But hey, I'm not going to pass up a year off with pay.

posted by goo 14 June | 03:38

And as for cleaning - take the middle-class feminist cop out. It's the cleaner's job!

posted by goo 14 June | 03:41

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