also: i have feelings about this. i have been enjoined from discussing them here. no matter how many kitten posts, the underlying situation continues.

^ won't mention that again either, just please remember it if you're interested in this narrative..

Do you think she'd know that she sent it? Would it be obvious to her? Did you copy the chain in your reply?

My instinct would be ignore and delete unless it happened again.

p.s. - is it you or the boss who has feelings? I wasn't clear. sorry if I've missed something.

Ignore.

it's me who has the feelings.

matthewr, lysdexic, what are the steps in ignoring someone disparaging you? does it work like a switch?

It's just a lot easier working for people who you aren't aware of their mocking you, etc.

I think I'll probably resign, "Things have arisen that confirm to me that there is a personality clash here so it's best if I resign."

Store under "Knowledge I have that will give me power over YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" like a good sysadmin (or rather BOFH) does. One day she'll accidently forward something where she says nasty shit about her boss. HAA HA!

lysdexic, what are the steps in ignoring someone disparaging you? does it work like a switch?

Ouch! I have this: 10 steps from anger to compassionate connection.

Don't be fooled by the format of the site, the information is given in a business context. I used to use it weekly, now it's down to once every couple months.

It's not a switch you turn off, but a realization that you can decide how much it matters to you. I know that's easy to say, but I've been in the situation where I knew the boss was disparaging me because she was doing it to my face and in front of me to others.

It's just a lot easier working for people who you aren't aware of their mocking you, etc.

If you're replaying the tape of what was said in your head, yes, it will slow you down and make it hard to work. It'll shade your words and actions and perceptions of things said to you, and your responses to them.

Keep in mind we all have stray thoughts about others. It's unfortunate that they're chatting about you and you saw it (it could be they talk about other employees, too?) but does it seem directed at you?

If this is a clue as to the boss' attitude toward you (makes it hard for you to be heard, etc.) then it's a hostile workplace, and time to go, or focus on someone else who can help your career.

In the meeting with the Boss, elongate all "You"s. Add the phrase "Joy" inappropriately to responses.

Her: How are things?
You: Fine, how about yoouuuuuuu?
Her: ???
Her: I need you to do X
You: I'll get right on to it. Joy!

I kid.

matthewr, lysdexic, what are the steps in ignoring someone disparaging you? does it work like a switch?
Yes. You switch it off, you don't rise to it. You ignore it.

You know, if you'd said what your bosses had said (which ultimately boils down to the fact that they don't like being in meetings with you) then nobody here would have blinked. I think you need to take that into account when formulating your response. In the exchange (above) there is nothing personal about you.

The thing here is that your bosses dread meeting with you as much as you dread meeting with them. I'm not here to draw sides or try to work out why this is, but it is in YOUR interest for them not to feel this way. This is irregardless of your particular feelings in the matter. If they hate meeting with you, then there's going to be more tension and more stress on you. If they don't hate meeting with you, there's the possibility of a change in the relationship.

Well I'd sure like to know what it is, seanyboy. I smile, listen, take notes, ask questions when appropriate, and am brief. I think that there's something fundamentally different about me tho - maybe ask essexjan about it, she's met me - it's the same reason my father's wife hates me, 'i don't switch off' is the way he explained it.

I work hard to be conscious of the needs of others. They told me to stop apologising, I did. They told me not to interrupt, I did (even tho they do all the time).

I don't know how to try to work it out. Really, this anger steps thing that lysdexic mentioned and your suggestion of trying to work it out pose problems because they assume there's the possibility of an honest, meaningful conversation about difficult matters.

I discussed this all with a disability counsellor in dundee that I know. He cautioned me that even the slightest discussion in this vein would escalate matters and make things worse for me. People love their denial.

I can't see any conversation with these people that even touched on these matters as working out well. It would probably involve a lot of yelling.

Does this make sense?

I am very grateful for your advice, all, even when it is difficult to hear.

Ah, I should mention when I do use the steps, it's very rare that I have any conversation with the parties involved. In a business context, there's very little I can ask them to change for me. In the personal life, I've had 50/50 success.

I smile, listen, take notes, ask questions when appropriate, and am brief

I've got this same "problem" - I'm businesslike, 'cause, you know, it's a business. This turns off some folk who like to be chatty. I can simulate it some, but they know my heart's not in it. This bothers them, but I'm at the point where I don't care. They can't fire me for not being chatty enough, and I've cultivated enough goodwill from others that they can't just keep my ideas down, at least not for long.

I work hard to be conscious of the needs of others. They told me to stop apologising, I did. They told me not to interrupt, I did (even tho they do all the time).

I just saw this and it jumped out at me. Is there a lot of this going on, where they're touchy about perceived respect? Do they get bent out of shape over being a minute late to meetings, or not showing the proper awe at their obvious superiority?*

There's not much to do about that type of behavior, except maybe not be quite so obsequious. I'm not sure that's what's going on, but there's more to this dynamic than meets the eye.

Really, if you can get to step 6, you're in good shape. Like I said, I rarely get through all 10, because it's not going to change things.

What might be useful is going through the first six steps in relation to everything that you hate about the job/boss/father in law. Go through all the grievances you've got and get them out of your head and on to paper.

==========================
*(me? annoyed? never! :)) I've got one of those now, a boy with the temperament of a thoroughbred racehorse with the talents of a shetland pony. He has yet to try to force me to apologize for his hurt feelings - I suspect he knows he won't get what he wants.

Bottom line, is this is a place you see yourself continuing to work at? If the answer is no , then move forward in that direction. Do you want to resign before you have another job? Yes or no? Yes. Fine, give your notice. No? Then, get your resume in order and start looking.

If this is a place you still would like to work at, then you either need to come to terms with the chat yourself (in Chinese, we would say 'eat the bitterness') with those possibly long-term emotional repercussions or you need to address it and clear the air. Is there an HR department? Can they mediate a conversation? Can you start with a letter, which will enable you to edit edit edit before you get to a face-to-face meeting?

To me, I would ask myself is this is a relationship worth growing? I always know that if I am willing to have a true discussion and yes, maybe even a bit of a blow-out, then I am willing to invest in that relationship. If I do not, or know that I am moving on, or will shortly, then I just ignore it.

Is this a battle worth fighting right now? Is this the mountain you want to die on?

Well, it's sounded like your boss is kind of an asshole (as many are). If you stand up for yourself to an asshole, they'll dislike you for it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Try thinking of it this way: if in life you inflict more pain than you suffer, then you've won ;-)

Isn't there any way you can hold them accountable for their idiocy?

I'd hate to think that just because someone's in a higher position than you, they can abuse their power and mistreat people like this.

If you do want to work there then you're going to have to put up with this kind of bullshit, and if you're up to it, then go ahead. But might I make a small suggestion: could you please, please pass on your boss's email id to me, so that I can send her an email (acting as if I'm a regular bloke from your part of town, emailing a buddy of mine, and talking behind her back--nothing explicit, just something that would mildly tick her off--mentioning in the mail that although I don't exactly work under her, whenever I pass her in the halls I can't bear the amount of body odour that she disseminates.) You know? Something just as juvenile as the comments she'd made.)

I'll of course be doing all of this under a pseudonym, and won't even mention a name so that she won't know if the said bloke really does work in her office or not, just set up an account like londonerxyz or britisher(whatever) and have a bit of fun.

Tell me what you think. Seriously. We should definitely stick it to your boss and give her a dose of her own medicine.

If you want to stay there, you have to find a way to deal with the anger you feel toward them (which is an ongoing thing) without culturing it into bitterness. I suspect that you have been rehearsing your legitimate hurts over the years instead of feeling them and getting past them, and that it's the bitterness, not the anger, that people are reacting to.

Bitterness is not a natural feeling -- it's a cultured one. Ironically, it starts with "I shouldn't be angry", and is cultured by enumerating every reason over and over why you should. Anger needs to be felt and let go. You have a right to be angry at your bosses here -- but if you culture that anger into bitterness, it just flows out of everything you do (even if you think you're doing it expressionlessly), and feeds back into this cycle you have with the bosses.

Have you ever done any "Flow of feelings" writing exercises? I could show you some if you're interested. Part of the process is flowing through the anger, which leaves you clear enough to decide what to do next.

Thanks for the suggestion, but it probably wouldn't work :)

I think I will throw kitten poop at them.

re. ileachie, thanks, I will look that up.

should have previewed first the preceding comment was re hadjiboy's email suggestion!

My first instinct, but probably all wrong, is this:

If you want to continue working here, when your boss comes to see you, try your hardest not to show negative emotion or hurt feelings (I know this is difficult).

Be breezy, professional, pleasant. Show them that you are not the difficult person they perceive you to be.

My husband said something to me when I got all pissy about the neighbor calling my kid a brat. Take this with a grain of salt because we are a couple of nuts, but it went something like this:

"That's what people do. They talk about you. They talk about you with their spouse. They talk about you with their friends. We all do it."

So. Try to relax and blow this off if you want to remain in this job. If you truly want to resign and have something lined up, by all means, tell them to shove it, but take your time and think carefully. Just give it a few days and if you still want to say something, go ahead.

I tend to be very impulsive and emotional. When I am slighted or my kid is slighted, I am easily pissed-off, and sad and anxious, and feel a need to tell somebody that they are unprofessional, unsportsmanlike, unfair! I want everything to be fair and pleasant and professional. This isn't reality. There are strange characters out there that we will always have to interact with. Look at the big picture. Will quitting be beneficial to your life?

you can decide how much it matters to you.

This is 100% true and it's one of the basic coping skills we all need in life. Understanding that you are not the victim of your emotions, but that you have mastery over them,is pretty powerful. This matters exactly as much as you decide it does, and in the way you decide it does.

How is your search for a therapist going? This kind of problem at work, of course, is what you talked about last time when you agreed that was a top priority.

To let you folks know, I'll be watching and waiting. I'm very pleasant and cheerful in my manner, although I am sometimes nervous - I'm sure they can pick up on that.

These are people I respect and wish the best for, even though they have their weaknesses they are generally good people doing decent work.

Wow, that was really stupid, wasn't it?

I always feel better when it's stupid people who don't like me; I figure that explains it. I think seanyboy's idea is utterly hilarious... God, I'd probably do it. But I guess as mature adults we should know this is wronnnnnngggg. SADNESS.

Just hang onto that email whatever you do. In your position, to be honest, I'd just do whatever I felt like doing. I might say to my boss, "I saw the email forward, and I feel pretty bad. What can we do to make these meetings less of a drag for both of us?" Or I might say nothing, but make it obvious I noticed. In any case, it seems to me that the situation is that if they realize what they've done, they're going to be kissing your ass now.

Which is way more better than you kissing theirs - so, me? I'd make certain they were aware, one way or another.

(This is obviously just strategic, and not something deeper and healthier and more healing... but hell, sometimes strategic is what you've got, you know?)

Re. Miko, I'm still looking. I am on a free care waiting lit that is at about 2 months now. I'm still trying to find a way to get the very best private service as well, an angie's list of therapists as it were, so my money is spent more effectively. Requests for individual references or communities where such information is available have been unsuccessful so far, but I keep trying.

The kittens and guitar lessons are helpful too.

Even if I don't report it often, I want you bunnies to know that I take these problems seriously and am taking meaningful and regular steps towards their solution. That process is part of the context of everything I post here, even though I don't always talk about it.

BtGoG, I have a booklet of these kinds of exercises I've amassed, so if you need these and can't find them (they're an improved sort of cognitive therapy in that you actually get to have your feelings!) I can send them to you...

PS: I do think your bosses are passive-aggressive twits, if it helps any.

PPS: I also advocate loving kindness (otherwise known as "genuinely, sincerely, and lovingly blowing sunshine and rainbows up their asses"). I tend to hold people like this in the Light (from my years as a Quaker) and when I encounter them, I hold loving thoughts about their basic human goodness (even if they've forgotten it) while talking to them. Sometimes, it drives them up a wall. I had a student with borderline personality disorder send me 14 hate emails (plus sending as many complaints about me to my department head) in 24 hours because she got a B in a class. I used this approach with her. Now, when I see her, I am genuinely happy to see her because I have come to understand her suffering through holding her in the Light. She, on the other hand, crosses the street to avoid me.

PPPS: I sometimes entertain a wicked and un-Quakerly satisfaction when said ex-student crosses the street. I am sure that shows up in the above note, and although I know that to be a character flaw of mine, I still feel that way. Oh, well, I'm not a saint yet, so pray for me.

Yes. You switch it off, you don't rise to it. You ignore it.

Agreed. I got something like this once. I just put it from my mind.

We (here in Eugene) actually had something like this, when someone in the City Manager's office accidently forwarded an email, saying "SHE'S BACK!" to the person he was talking about.

This person was a City Councilor who has been highly critical about city staff, and often goes on and on about the information she receives not being adequate for her to do her job.

The fact that this councilor has a very disagreeable tempermant, and the fact that none of the other 7 councilors share this view of city staff, etc. seems to point to her deficiencies, and not staff's.

But when she got the email (by mistake) she had a chance to show some class, and either ignore it, or treat it with some humor. Instead, she maxed out her reaction, called for an investigation, and caused ALL CITY STAFF to do through some sort of training around sensitivity and electronic communications. She acted very much like the injured party, and, at least in my mind, it diminished her standing even more.

So, ignore it, or try to treat it with some humor and lightness. . .is my advice.

I've been out most of the day, so am late to this and can't really add much, except this.

Lyric.

I like lleachie's "handout" about the 10 steps. It's full of insight - a great read, though of course the amount of emotional 'work' in there takes a lot of practice!

For me, it's being able to get that "wedge" in there before I get angry or upset - the wedge that says "Is there another way to interpret this? How much importance do I feel like giving this - how much energy do I need to reserve for other things I'd rather be thinking about?"

If I miss the 'wedge' opportunity it's hard to back out of the cycle later on.

lleachie, I can't find an email address for you but please do send whatever you've got to my email, with my thanks!

What Miko said, only I actually put a time frame on it. as in: How about 2 hours. Do I have 2 hours to obsess on this? Yeah. Probably. 2 days? Nah- I have too much other stuff to do. OK- 2 hours max, then... And just doing the calculation makes me realize 1) I have power over it, & 2) since I do have power over it, maybe the whole thing's silly to spend energy on, & 3) I can spend energy on it anyway, if I feel like it. (So there!)

I heard a funny idea last night: this guy printed out a blank General Partnership Agreement and gave his god a 51% controlling share of his life, and kept a 49% minority share for himself. The deal (on paper!) was that his god's part was to do all the stressing/worrying. The guy's part was to do all the work. There was no point in taking over his god's stressing duties because his god sure as hell never pitched in on any of the work.

Not sure how relevant it is, just thought it was a funny way to try to deal with something that sounds similar.

I always feel better when it's stupid people who don't like me; I figure that explains it.

Ha! Yes, me too. But I have very little tolerance for stupid, so that's pretty much the ultimate write-off for me -- once I figure you're stupid, then yeah, there is a switch that flips and I really no longer care what you think of me. Or of anything else.

Your switch might be different -- cruelty, or disorganization, or neuroses, or inability to express one's thoughts coherently, or some other quality that, when it comes to the fore, you can just kind of throw up your hands and think, "You know, I'm emotionally done with this. I'll outwardly play their little games and go along with whatever, but I no longer have any emotional investment in this situation."

I don't think I could ignore something like this. Totally unprofessional.
Do your bosses have a boss? How about forwarding this to their boss with a request for support on how to deal with the situation?
At the very least I would respond back, quoting the offensive part, and advise them to be more careful when they send emails, (totally politely,) and thank them.
That sucks on so many levels and you shouldn't have to tolerate it. People get fired over stuff like this all the time.

I guess I don't have that switch. I'm so angry on Grace's behalf that I have tears in my eyes. I'd print out the email and put it on my boss's desk in such a way she knew it was from me.

I have had a similar thing happen to me - I hit "reply to all" and wrote something like "I think you sent this to the wrong address" and then never mentioned it to anyone. The sender knew she had screwed up, I got an evil sense of satisfaction from making her (and everyone else) know that, but then let it go (after seething for a couple of days, natch).

I also have a very low capacity for stupidity, which gets me in trouble sometimes because I also have a limited capacity for deception. I have worked really hard on compartmentalising a lot of the people I work with in my mind, to the point where I can deal with them pleasantly and effectively without giving a shit what they think of me. It helps that most of the people I work with are pretty cool, I guess, but that hasn't always been the case. I'm not trying to be glib or make out that this is easy, but it's the only way I have been able to effectively deal with the stupid of my world and stay more or less sane. They can think of me what they want, they can be as ignorant as they want and I don't care because, in my mind, I only deal with the work-related aspects of them and they are completely null to me apart from that.

Here's another evil thought - I don't suppose your workplace has banned IRC (or any other chat protocol) like mine, has it? Perhaps her boss would be interested?