I understand that people think self-immolation is an effective and peaceful protest, but it's still heartbreaking to watch. And I'm not sure harm to oneself is truly pacifistic in spirit. As a therapist in a group I was in once put it, "Why do you think harm to others is abuse, yet harm to yourself is somehow honorable?"

They should stop the Olympics. Delay it. Strike. Make a living wall to stop it from starting.
People will be setting themselves on fire and i wonder if the Dalai Lama will resign.
Sadly, peace doesn't bring about change as often as violent riots of emotion and it feels like the last chance for anyone to do anything about China.

Wow, I get the feeling these Olympics are going to be a mess. I don't know how exactly I feel about it and I can see both sides, but it is good to see some pressure being put on China.
I keep wondering how things might have been different had the 1936 Olympics been boycotted.

This is so horrible I don't even know what to say.

I've seen reports that the Islamabad leg of the torch relay will open be open to the media and "invited guests" only.

I hope, for added irony, they play Fanfare for the Common Man during the run.

Okay. I'm going to admit to my utter ignorance on that, but I know the bunnies won't chide me for it.

Can someone explain in cliff-notes format what is going on with the Olympics and the protests this year? I heard about some attack on the torch in Paris, and San Francisco was battering down the hatches or something, but people self-immlating?? What's the deal?

(Please keep in mind that I don't really read the news, I thought the "Free Tibet" stuff was from the 80s or something, and I didn't even know the Olympics were going to be in China.) (My claim to ignorance is not unfounded.)

On the Tibet issue, I think reading this section of the Wiki article on Tibet may bring you up to speed on why people are so angry with China. They've basically created a Chinese apartheid, and have kept Tibet's rightful spiritual leader in exile and claimed the power to appoint whomever they see fit. Not good.

So it's not something that was just from the '80s, it's been going on for the last 55+ years, and the issue is still very much alive and kicking.

Rhapsodie, it's kind of been revived in recent years, especially after the movie "Kundun" and various Hollywood stars getting involved. There was a good article a few years ago in the National Geographic about Tibet, stating that the Chinese people honestly and sincerely don't understand why the Tibetans don't want to "assimilate," just like the white North Americans who didn't understand why native North Americans might be pissed that their culture was being rubbed out. This month's National Geographic is devoted entirely to China, and I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure it deals with this issue, looking forward to reading it.

Problems with China are not just about Tibet either. They have a horrible human rights record and are soon outside any significant economic pressure or means of influence from anyone, not that anyone has done anything while they had any clear chance of progress.

So, what I'm getting from the Wikipedia article (thank you, Specklet, for directing me to the appropriate section - I had looked at the article before I posted, but damn, it's so long and I couldn't find the relevant bits), is that:

• China took over Tibet in 1950
• Tibet wasn't happy about it but wasn't strong enough to resist
• China signed agreements to let Tibet remain independant, maybe renigged on this agreement?
• Tibet doesn't want to be a part of China. There was a revolt, a lot of people died.
• Tibet's leader, the Dali Lama, fled to save his life, says that he wants to come back and let China lead the government if he can lead them spiritually. China declined.

This sounds similar to Quebec wanting to pull out of Canada, and Canada saying no. But people aren't setting themselves on fire for Quebec.

On Preview, Melismata's comparison to Native American's being bullied about by the US government makes a little more sense.

There's also their direct involvement with Darfur, which is helping to fuel that whole other mess.

But people aren't setting themselves on fire for Quebec.

In a nutshell, this is because while Canada is a pretty pleasant, civilised place to live, China is an authoritarian one-party state which executes thousands of people, shoots Tibetan monks, suppresses Tibetan culture, punishes dissent and generally has one of the worst human rights records in the world.

There have been a lot of recent ugly suppression of Tibetan protests by the Chinese lately as well. Tibetans were agitating for their independence and China sent in troops - lots of troops - and kicked out media.

I don't think the Native American / Quebecois similes are very good at all - this is more as if New York State invaded Quebec in 1950 and took it over with, among other things, the goal of eradicating Quebec completely. Tibet was never a part of China. They were completely separate countries for thousands of years. They're not even ethnically very similar. What has happened in Tibet at the hands of the Chinese has just been really horrible for a long time - just this side of genocide, actually.

And then, you know, there are a lot of other reasons to dislike China even besides Tibet. There's the political prisoners in the factories and there's the wholesale rape of the environment and there's Tiananmen Square and then, selfishly and closer to home, there's, of course, the trade surplus and the fact that they're kind of destroying the US economically.

Ah, but matthewr, didn't you hear the Chinese diplomat on the news the other night who said "No innocent people have been shot?"

It was at that point I almost put my foot through the TV, so I switched over instead.

That's like Jiang Zemin's famous equivocal reply when asked what was the fate of the man who stood in front of the tanks in Tienanmen Square: "I think never killed".

So very late, but I wanted to thank everyone for the explanations and links earlier today. I was busy reading all kinds of things I never knew about China, and then OMG late for lunch date! And then meetings all afternoon and... yeah. Thank you!

It's being reported that the torch relay is going to take place at 1 PM local time. I'll try and keep you all posted.