I suspect you wouldn't be surprised to find that here, yeah, you can talk. What's up pie?

/me hugs pie

All but the most saintly of us fly off the handle about issues that are sensitive to us, then regret things we've said. I've done it often.

An open mind and an open heart, though, makes all the drama go away.

Besides that, what, specifically, would you like to talk about?

/catching up on drama I think.

Yeah, it's cool. If you can do it without insulting people, so much the better. Now, spill it.

Can we talk?

I don't know, can we? It seems this happens fairly regularly with you over here. I'm curious as to what you're looking for with this post.

(((pie=3)))

*starts typing in a word doc.*
First though, outside for a cigarette and mug of hot tea. brb

If we can talk--
that thread and the "say I love you" thread--

you've been doing this "hijack a thread to talk about my issues" thing, and i'm sorry but you've been coming off as super creepy to me.
Whatever is going on in real life, it still has bugged me here, and the whole "things frustrate me so i focus my hostility on women" really bothers me.

I like talking.

Throwing goatse, being an ass--
still does not bother me as much as other things yet but whatever, i'm just throwing it all out there.

*goes off in search of tacos*

later

Can we let him say his piece before we jump on him? There's a whole 'nother thread for that.

/still catching up on drama, and worrying a bit about pie.

What was just all one thing for the people who missed the drama.
Now i really need to get a taco. i hope to see what's said after everyone's break.

pi, it looks like I'll be logged out for the night by the time you return. I just wanted to chime in as a voice welcoming you if you have some stuff to talk about.

I'm not so good at talking atm, I am however a superb listnener...er lurker

mmm. taco.

So folks, I don't really know where to start. I must preface everything by saying that you are my community and one of the few places I feel I can turn to. I have met lots of really wonderful friends here and met some great people IRL as a result.

I realize that I ought to start my own threads when an issue in another thread brings something to light that I need to share. I'll try to do that in the future.

Most of my hostility is generally directed inwards and I have no viable course for expressing it. I don't know what to do with myself at the moment. I've been seriously depressed since this last summer. I try everything I can think of to make myself healthy: I see my psychiatrist regularly, take medications and spend time in silent meditation several times a week. I am incredibly frustrated that I can't get better.

Lately, I've felt that I could so easily have a better life, but I just can't make all the pieces fit together. I know it's wrong to compare yourself to others, but I can't help but be jealous of all the people I see every day who seem to have lives that contain the stuff I wish I had. And I know, wishing you had something you don't have is a cause of misery by itself.

I feel so detached from the world and isolated. I feel like if I were just made of different stuff, I could make it click and connect. Viewing a travel slide show presented by the abbotts of my local Zen monastery gave me a strong sense of longing for travel and vivid memories of the feelings I recall having when I’ve been traveling in the past. It reminded me that the world is so much more that the little space I live in here in Oregon. I want to see more of it, but I also want something more. I want to achieve some sort of synthesis. Somehow, I need to connect to all the rest of what’s out there in a reciprocal relationship. I want to be a part of more places, not just see them in passing. I want to join myself to all these worlds and experiences somehow. I want them to enter into me and make me a part of them.

When I was a teenager, my family moved to Oregon and I finished my last two years of high school here. I didn't know anybody and I did nothing social whatsoever outside school with anyone my own age for those two years. I saw couples kissing in the hallway, people making plans to hang out on the weekend, even nerds playing magic cards, and I felt trapped behind glass, unable to cross over and enter their world. Well as I approach 31 years old, I wonder why I still feel this way. I am very disappointed in myself because I haven't stopped being that emo teenager.

*whew, time for a breath*

((((hugs pie)))

I am very disappointed in myself because I haven't stopped being that emo teenager.

The secret? The REAL secret to life?

No one ever stops being that teenager. Some people just fake it, and ignore it, better than others.

On to other issues. As for what I flipped out about - in a sense, it's really easy to overreact when it seems like just words on a screen. What I was talking about was only a tiny snapshot, a brief still life and a passing thought. I get irritable about lots of things. 'Round here, its felt increasingly like a club I can't be a part of, and the comments in a lot of threads make me feel like I wouldn't be welcome. It makes me really sad that so many people experience such suffering, and some of it is redirected towards noncombatants such as myself. I also feel like the positions taken are pretty extreme and angry, and make me feel self conscious for feelings and thoughts I have that some people would find offensive. The hardest thing is that my own reactions to these threads puts me in a position which is very inconsistent with my self-image as a person who believes with all my heart in the equality of all beings. This cognitive dissonance is overwhelming.

I went through similar feelings during my school years with regard to not feeling a real part of the world. At 46, I still feel like that to a large degree and the only difference now is that (mostly) I accept my place in the world as it is, rather than longing for a "better" life. Instead of continually looking outwards and seeking what you feel is lacking from your life, try looking inward a bit more and learn to appreciate what you do have. I wish that, when I was approaching 31 years old, I had taken advantage of more opportunities rather than complaining that I didn't get better opportunities.

I know that sounds a bit glib but, at a high level, it really is a straightforward as that. If you can learn to accept that your life will not be "perfect", you immediately reduce the disappointment you feel about how your life is and open yourself to the possibility that life is OK after all.

Oh, there's more. My comment was in response to the first bit.

There sure sounds like some dissonance here pie. fwiw, I've long thought you seemed like a good guy, but of late, you've seemed very angry, and prone to lashing out. That's just my impression from way up here in the northern woods. I've hoped you were okay, that you were sorting your way through it, like so many of us are, AND I've wondered why you are lashing out. I've worried (only a little bit, but I don't REALLY know ya) for the safety of those around the guy who on occasion has sounded a lot like a ticking time bomb of anger.

The words you wrote up there show a VERY different picture to me. Man, pie, I'm not a counselor, nor a psychiatrist, but I'm a guy who's often felt like I was alone in the world, despite a wife and two wonderful kids. I can only assume that that feeling has little to do with external circumstances, and more to do with the internal being.

I'm REALLY glad that you are seeking help. The only suggestions I can make are:
1) Stop posting vitriolic feelings. These posts accomplish nothing good. Type them out, sure, but don't post them pal.

2) Continue on your path to understanding. Maybe check this book out. It's about mindfulness and depression. Combines the wonderful teachings of mindfulness with Cognitive Behavior Therapy to help us break away from those judgments and brooding thoughts that often do us in. I haven't even finished the book, and it's been in my house for about 3 months, and it has given me more hope than anything else I've ever done. Hope that I can learn new pathways in my mind which can lead me to the REALITY that I often talk myself out of.

3)Keep talking to us. Like I said, until I read what you wrote up there, I had a different sense of things. This community isn't like any other I've experienced. There are some of the most understanding, other-cheek-turning folks I've ever seen here. I have been astonished to see how many of us are struggling with our own lives in the last few months. That knowledge has helped me be more up front with sharing my struggles, and perhaps helping someone else. I've said it before, and I'll say it many more times. Metachat fucking rocks.

...gave me a strong sense of longing for travel and vivid memories of the feelings I recall having when I’ve been traveling in the past.

Well, maybe you need to travel then. Go somewhere that'll push your boundaries and force you to re-evaluate your interaction with the world and people, and challenge the way you are currently viewing life. Going to someplace like a city in Europe would give you some touchstones that you could start with, and the interaction with peoples from all the different neighbouring countries would allow you to see different ways of being, sort of all-at-once.

Sure you could go there and be alone, that's easy. Going somewhere and forcing yourself to try to fit in (even though you may never will completely - it's a foreign culture, and you're only there for a week or two) will still open you to different ways of thinking. Isn't part of Zen the acceptance and flowing of worldly and internal forces? Go somewhere and go with the flow as it presents itself, and learn from the experience. At worst, you'd come back with some interesting stories and some souvenirs. At most, a new outlook. ...and stories and pictures and souvenirs.

btw, this is all just a friendly suggestion, not a diagnosis, in case this comes across as sounding harsh in text.

I don't get why you feel like this place is something you can't be part of. I have always seen you as one of the regulars here and, until yesterday, assumed that you were happy in your participation here.

I don't think that, in general, positions that people here at MeCha take are particularly extreme. In fact, my feeling is that this is about as middle-of-the-road as you can get without actually breaking out into show tunes. I suspect that, again, this an issue of your perception rather than the actuality of things. Seriously, even when you were telling people to fuck off and die, you were treated with respect and tolerance, so I don't see how much more inclusive we can be towards you. You have seen in this thread a number of people (the same people who you indicated contempt for just yesterday) opening themselves to you when you said you needed to talk. Try accepting that the people here are your friends and viewing your interactions here from that perspective. Unlike the real world, if we reject you, you can walk away and never feel embarrassed by having to bump into us all the time. What have you got to lose?

It gets better when you stop finding your emotions interesting. I stopped feeling bad right about the time I got permanently bored with paying attention to how I felt. Suddenly I had time and attention for the world outside myself. Other people liked me a lot more and I slept a lot better at night.

You're OK, pie. We've all been there. I remember my post-college flunkout year that I spent working a night shift in a bakery and I was convinced that veryone else in the world was having mopre fun/finding more meaning in life etc than me (and that sucks at age 21). I felt like I was living on a different planet than everyone else. Occasionally, I still feel like that, but then I'll go bullshit with a co-worker or talk to Pips or come bullshit here and I'll come back down to earth. Go hang out at your local bar or coffeeshop and chew the fat with a stranger about the game or the news or whatever. If nothing else, you'll get out of your own head.

As 4 wise men once said "We're all Alright! We're all alright!"

These comments to pi have been so kind and supportive.

It gets better when you stop finding your emotions interesting. I stopped feeling bad right about the time I got permanently bored with paying attention to how I felt. Suddenly I had time and attention for the world outside myself. Other people liked me a lot more and I slept a lot better at night.

I love this comment and jon's too about getting out of our heads. Sometimes it helps not too think too much about our unhappiness and just live. I think the Thai people do a great job of this. Well, that's what I've heard on NPR anyway. :)

Good luck, pi.

Well, maybe you need to travel then. Go somewhere that'll push your boundaries and force you to re-evaluate your interaction with the world and people, and challenge the way you are currently viewing life.

This brings up a very important issue. I feel boxed in now by decisions I made when I was younger. As a teenager, I felt very small, probably from being picked on as a child - I was in special ed because of ADD and had to ride the the short bus. As a result my family and my home was the only place I felt safe. When it came time to go to college, I chose a place in the same city. And then afterwards, it just so happened that the thing that seemed a bit promising happened to be the Urban Planning program at Portland State. I never tried to study abroad in college because of my fear of that awkward feeling of being in social situations where I had nowhere safe to run to. I dreaded that feeling and avoided circumstances that would cause it.

Now, I'm frustrated with my career because I find the subject matter and process dull and tedious and beneath me. My risk-averse behavior left me with an unsatisfying life. Now I want to change careers, and become an urban designer. I had wanted to be an architect as a teenager, but talked myself out of it because I was afraid of being overwhelmed by unfamiliar challenges, so I went with the liberal arts route because it was familiar and I knew I could do passably well at it. It ended up being a dead end, because being a career academic is just not the kind of life I could stand. I'm at a disadvantage to change careers because I have no design training, and most grad programs require or at least strongly recommend it.

Okay this will sounds wayyy to simplistic, but, it seemed wise to me at the time, and it helped me START.

When I was feeling totally fuxored, and could see no light at the end of the tunnel whatsoever...deepest depression in my life, my wife asked me what I figured I should do. She wondered if I had ANY ideas. I said that I could go back to a counselor I saw a couple times, back about 3 years ago, when the current slide down was just starting. Jen suggested I call and make an appointment. At 80 bucks an hour I figured I could prolly handle one or two at least. So I called. When I emailed Jen at work, she replied to point out that I had done SOMETHING. I almost burst into tears at work.

Now, months and months later, I'm doing much better on my road. I've not seen the counselor too many times really, but I totally feel like that first step was important.

Once you get out here, it's scary. But I have some degree of confort in knowing that I have made reasoned choices about each step. One step at a time. And, I am trusting myself to take these steps.

So...back to you. It sounds like there are a number of things you aren't liking. I suspect that might be a little overwhelming (and I can relate). So, today, look at one issue only. Take the next logical step on that front. You know? ACT, brother, act. Thinking, as George points out, can only get us so far. We need to take REAL steps.

Oh, and I've come to trust those that do know me. Even if there are only a few, if they feel you aren't a total douchebag, remember that. Sometimes, when you feel like a total douchebag, remember what they told you. You aren't a total douchebag. You know it on some level prolly, but it's pretty tempting to start getting mad I bet. I get sad myself, but it's kinda the same thing, right? Have faith when people say you are GOOD, to trust them to know it, for you, when you don't feel it.

And, try not to aim so much. Seymour Glass was pretty bang on there.

I specifically mentioned Europe and not, say, China because the cross-cultural challenge would be drastically minimised. It'd allow you to have cultural references that wouldn't leave you totally out in the deep end, but the ability to go there if you felt comfortable doing so.

You know when you go and do something new that you haven't done before, that your finding to be pretty neat, and you get home from doing it and your brain is tired? Literally, I mean. Thinking is fuzzy and you're slightly buzzing from the previous activities and desperate for bed. That's your brain forging new pathways for you to be able do the "new thing," and integrate with it. Doing so will allow you to use these new neural pathways to think about things differently, using the experiences that you've learned from as new guides.
Think of it as a new map for uncharted territories.
From that, you get new and different outlooks on matters that you've seen and experienced before and you can adapt and move forward from there (using the new map on top of old territories). The important thing is to actually move forward or you'll lose those new paths and find yourself only one step from square one, instead of miles from it.

I appreciate with all my heart the comments above - they mean a great deal to me.

I need to be less narcissistic, I know, but somehow, I just. can't. stop. thinking about myself. Arrrggghhh, I need to stop it!

I wish I could favorite posts in metachat. richat and George_Spiggott are +1.

Anyway. FWIW, I've always thought you were one of the regulars, one of the gang, and I don't know what the hell the kerfluffle was about yesterday. I think I caught the front end of it, and I'm too lazy to go search for the rest of the drama.

Not that this has much to do with anything, but I have my master's in urban planning. I haven't found a job in the field, but I'm also thinking about changing careers. (GIS, to be specific.) I can commiserate a lot with the OMG trapped feeling, because every GIS job I've seen requires programming skillz.

I knew a woman who said FUCK IT and became an artist in her 50s. There is no dead end, until you're dead. We're in our early 30s. We have a lot of time - or very little, depending on how you look at things. Life is short. Let's get going, you and me.

I think a lot of people in their early 30s are having this type of wtf moment, myself included. I think it's just a matter of having dropped a lot of the insecurity of younger years, plus the experience of knowing what works and doesn't work for you. The last piece is that insecurity of "oh no! everyone else has this figured out"--and you'll definitely come across that. You just have to power through it, and if other people second guess your decisions, that's their thing.

I've always thought you were one of the regulars, one of the gang.

The curios thing is that in the last 12 months or so, the gang seems to have bifrucated along gender lines. Many of the threads, as I mentioned above, felt weird to me, because, although I think I am one sort of person, the things being posted, on a gut level, made me feel like I might be a different sort of person, or that others might think of me that way. Self fulfilling prophecy, I guess...

Brecht said, "You can make a fresh start with your final breath."

To clarify my last comment, I have been confused, angry at myself and upset by feelings of guilt about all the anger I see.

richat, I ordered a copy of the book you linked to. I'm looking forward to reading it. Thank you.

sweetkid, thanks for stopping by! I'd assumed the worst and figured you'd just as soon call the cops on me.

What richat said about getting out of your comfort zone (if you'll forgive the ghastly pop-psych cliché) is important. Do things that are hard. If you're a night person, get up a little early and do something you need to do before work. Do this several times in the course of a week.

Forgetting to wallow in your mental shit is hard. But it's very rewarding. And when you're in pain, that's a really good time to do something you've been putting off -- you already feel like shit so you might as well accomplish something since it's a safe bet you weren't going to be having any fun anyway. If you still feel like feeling bad when you're done, go ahead. But on the other hand you might not, in which case whatever it was you would have spent the time feeling bad about must not have been all that important after all.

For what it's worth, I still can't keep straight who is male and who is female here - I keep thinking that pi=3 is female and have to remind myself that it's not the case (well, not the last couple of days, but generally ;-).

I don't see the split along gender lines that you mention either - I think we do a fantastic job of being as equal in that respect as is humanly possible. This could well be a manifestation of your wider feelings of leftout-ness, I guess.

If you want stories of changing careers mid-stride, I was 33 when I stopped working as a boat builder and took a job as a receptionist in an international college. People do it all the time and it can be stressful, but it's also empowering. If you want to do it, you can. As with most things.

pieisexactlythree, I'm just popping off to go to sleep, but I wanted to poke my head in and congratulate you on talking out some stuff. I imagine it was hard to do, and you did it.

There's some wonderful stuff in this thread, which should hardly surprise any of us. This place is amazing.

Good night!

Well, I just popped in here so I've no idea about the drama, but here's my contribution:

I'm in a kind of the same, kind of different place from you, pi, but there's enough similarities that I think it may help.

I've got Social Anxiety Disorder. So, yeah, I don't get out much, and I spend a lot of time overthinking things, good Mefite that I am. I'll get in a circle of thoughts about life and how this sucks and that sucks and I just want it all to stop so I can be happy again.

So I wander over here, and "see" all kinds of different folk, posting different stuff. I don't even follow most of the links, just the conversations. There's silly, there's banter, there's serious. There's comfort, there's callouts.

Then I'm happy again. Or whatever I've been worrying myself over is put in perspective: yeah, I've been here before, and it's never as bad as I thought, maybe I should just call/write X or forget about it. I've got a plan, I'm going though it, this is just the middle part, and everyone hates the middle.

But about a year ago, I was frustrated with where I was and where I was going. I decided I was going to change it. I've done so little by little. Some of it is long term, some is medium, some is short. Having that one thing (well, three) to focus on is the single most important thing in making changes. The things you do from then on are evaluated against that one (3) thing(s) you want: "will this help get me there?" and decisions become easier.

Now that sounds good but so what? You may ask. Good question. This is what the motivationalists don't tell you: the middle sucks. It sucks rocks, and it likes it. And it will mess with your head big time.

That's when you reach out however you can to your support circle and ask for help, and by damn ACCEPT IT. Admit your vulnerabilities and be comforted or advised. Take or leave the advice, but at least consider it. And do your best to reciprocate, because here's the other thing the motivationalists don't give enough attention to: helping others helps you.

So, take it, for what it's worth, and run like the wind!

Good luck!

Super super super wise things in this thread:

1. What richat says
2. What dg says
3. What George Spiggott says
4. What Zack Replica says, particularly: if you want to travel, travel.

I wish that, when I was approaching 31 years old, I had taken advantage of more opportunities rather than complaining that I didn't get better opportunities.

Totally.

Sometimes, when you're both smart and depressed, your worst enemy is what you think is your best tool: thought.

Thought isn't always your best tool.

Do. Go, and do. Get out of your head. Action. Forward. Do.

Some things I have learned:
My actions over the last six months or so tell me that I am incredibly insecure.
People at metachat care about me a lot more than I was aware of (though, unsurprisingly the ones commenting here are not the ones I've insulted the most)

Do. Go, and do. Get out of your head. Action. Forward. Do.

This is, of course, a very truthful and wise statement. However, it is very abstract. I don't know what that would look like when I wake up and start my day tomorrow. I don't know how to do. : (

To everyone I have personally attacked, I apologize. The pain my words caused was wrong.

I don't know how to do.

Yeah, just do anything. Anything is better than nothing and better than circular thinking. Pick something different for tomorrow morning and just do it. Get coffee at a different place. Get tea instead of coffee. Skip breakfast. Walk to work a different way. Shake it up. Start noticing. Stop thinking so much. Nobody's pain is that different from anyone else's pain. Look, tomorrow morning, for three other people's pain. When you see it, come back here and write about what you saw.

Hey pi,

I've been away for a while, but I'm slowly trying to come back. Ever since about last July, I've actually been almost exactly where you are right now, and you're right. It really sucks. What floored me about it is that I almost never was an emo teenager, so to turn into an emo 30-year old is somewhat dismaying.

You have my email address. Use it, mmkay? In addition to you continuing your therapy (mine is helping me a lot) maybe talking to someone else might help as well.

Oh, and *hugs*

I'm in a severely crappy mood (unrelated to anything here), so I'm going to stick to a quick concrete suggestion because my brain's not really capable of much else right now: I like the suggestions to go do stuff and stop analyzing, but you kind of seem like you're still in an analyzing mode, so one possibility might be asking your psychiatrist for recommendations for group therapy. If you can find more of a process-oriented group (rather than just a support group) that really focuses on the here-and-now relationships and interactions that happen among group members, it might be a way of (a) calibrating how you *think* people see you against how they *actually* see you, and (b) learning new patterns for interaction, which (I think) you're saying you want. It may get you moving in the direction you'd like faster, and in more satisfying ways, than individual therapy.

This listing popped up when I did a quick Google search; I'm not necessarily recommending that group but it's a good quick summary of what a group could help with. (I've never done group therapy, but I'm currently fascinated by it, because I'm taking a class in it. If it doesn't appeal to you, or you've had bad experiences, feel free to ignore -- I'm speaking from a theoretical rather than practical knowledge here.)

calibrating how you *think* people see you against how they *actually* see you

Funny you should mention that! I wrote the following in my journal a few weeks ago:

I have expended a lot of mental energy (and not really by choice – I can’t help it) on pondering the question of whether or not I exist. The question revolves around my interactions with others and whether my identity as a discrete entity in the universe is something which is objectively true or if it only exists in the narrative within my mind. On the one hand, there is the I which I call myself. Then there are the Jonathans which other people know and call Jonathan. Are they all signifiers for one discrete thing, or are they all independent of one another? Is one more real than the others?

Pi, something you said way up thread about moving when you were a junior in high school caught my attention. I can relate. My family moved a few times during my teens. In fact, at one point I went to five different schools five consecutive years.

It made it nearly impossible to fit in. All the cliques had formed and I was an outsider. I'm sure you felt the same way, particularly at that point in your academic career. Those last two years of high school are extremely important for shaping how we become adults. Since your life was turned upside down by moving, and you were an outsider, you were probably full of confusion.

That feeling of not fitting in can follow you everywhere you go. Believe me, I know. You become self-conscious, socially challenged, even lonely. Fast forward 15 years to your early 30s and you begin wondering where all the time went and why things are still the same.

My early 30s was 15 years ago for me. What I can tell you Pi is that a lot happens in the next ten years. By the time you are 40, you will know who you are, you will feel comfortable in your skin ... just like most men who reach the age of 40. It just happens.

But how do you get there. First off, quit taking yourself so damn seriously. You mentioned narcissism. If you can focus on making some other person each day be happy, to have a good day, and not worry so much about Pi ... you will begin to get out of yourself. It doesn't have to be the same person each day. Just pick someone to be the lucky one that day that you are going to help.

Don't worry so much about fitting in. Not everybody has to fit in. If you concentrate on forward thinking you can create a new place where maybe others will want to join you rather than the other way around.

You want to change careers, but probably can't get motivated because you want it to happen overnight. You didn't get to where you are now overnight, so you can't expect something as large as a career change to happen like that. Take it a day at a time. Prepare a three month plan, a 12 month plan, and a three year plan. Revise your plans quarterly. Chart your progress.

To summarize, get out of yourself ... focus on someone else, and quit looking in the rear view mirror. You've already seen that stuff back there. All the good stuff is up ahead out the windshield.

Excuse me, my early 30s was 25 years ago for me. Sorry.

"Excuse me, my early 30s was 25 years ago for me."

Aging is a bitch ain't it? :)

On the one hand, there is the I which I call myself. Then there are the Jonathans which other people know and call Jonathan. Are they all signifiers for one discrete thing, or are they all independent of one another? Is one more real than the others?

This so resonates with thoughts I've been developing over the last couple of years, and I'd love to explore them in a more conversational setting. On a related subject, though...

I went through the most profound and longest depression of my life, starting about a decade ago and beginning, at last, to find my way out about two years ago. A dear and wise friend of mine pointed out something remarkable about my process of growing out of it that had never occurred to me: the more time I've spent focusing on other people, the closer I've come to who I want to be. I'm so familiar with the inward perspective, I lived entirely there for so much of my life, analyzing, questioning, pondering myself and who I am and what I mean and what I want and... I still have that side, for certain, and cherish it; and it's only been since I've spent a lot of time absorbing myself in others that I've started to find a balance that's let me feel truly whole.

So I guess I'm nthing the suggestions to "get out of yourself", with a particular slant: spend time with or among people, and try put your attention as much as possible on them, their stories, their feelings, their ideas. Feel your responses to the communication and let them be secondary. Especially when you find yourself reacting negatively or argumentatively, put that aside - there's plenty of time for fighting - and try to listen beyond your reaction to the complex individual telling their story of the world. You don't have to agree with what they say about anything, but listening honestly to them you may find yourself surprised at what you learn about the world, what's possible, and perhaps even your own self.

(An added benefit of this approach, I've found, is that people really appreciate an attentive, unjudgemental listener. Easiest way I've found to make new friends. Not to mention get laid. Hehehe.)

There is more wisdom in this thread than I've seen in one place in ages.

Dear, dear pie, I'm coming late to this thread, due to it happening while I was asleep. I've felt there's been something wrong with you for a while, and I'm glad you've been able to bring it to us.

I always feel at a loss giving emotional support - when I was a divorce lawyer, I had all the practical answers, but would tell clients that I wasn't a counsellor, so if they needed help with their emotional problems, I would refer them to someone for that while I sorted out the practical stuff. So what follows is some practical suggestions.

Like many of us, I've been through horrible depressions, sometimes situational (feeling lonely, or powerless in a job) and a couple of times clinical (where I've been on meds for a while). There's lots of us here who've been in that dark place.

Something that's helped me, I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, I've just got up and haven't read everyone's answer in detail, is physical exercise.

It's amazing how much it helps me to do something physical when I'm feeling down. Sometimes it's almost too much effort to lift myself out of the chair, but when I do, and I actually get up off my arse and go outdoors and do something, it makes a huge difference to my mental wellbeing. That first step is the hardest.

Starting to get in shape has helped me enormously - it increases my self-esteem and is good for me physically, and the endorphins I get from exercising help my moods.

And there's no need to do it alone - you could put an ad on Craigslist or somewhere, asking if there are any desk jockeys/jockettes who'd like to start to get fit now that spring is approaching, and why don't we do it together.

Hand in hand with that goes healthy eating. If you eat fast food, microwave freezer meals, anything that's heavily processed, try to stop or cut down on it and switch to fresher, unprocessed food. Take a flax seed oil capsule or two ever day - I find that helps my moods massively.

We care about you, Jonathan, and it's been hard to see you go downhill lately in a way that's a bit scary. But don't think of us as all being at the top of the hill, with great lives that are all fine and dandy. We're on this journey with you, all at different stages in our lives.

I'm glad you felt able to share this with us. I'm starting to get all touchy-feely now, so I'll stop.

Can I also say that whenever I see your user name, I smile, sometimes outwards, mostly inside, because it reminds me of one of my all-time favourite greatest Simpson moments. So you make me smile every day, pie. How good is that?

≡ Click to see image ≡

I'm a pretty happy person, and I think I have a good life... but do you know? I could look at almost everything in my life in a different way and understand that my life pretty much sucks - and I would be right. Isolated? Yes. Much of it is self-imposed, for a variety of reasons. Career? Sub-zero, and I used to have an enviable job that I was really, really good at. Money? Always a problem. Fear? Lots, that I mostly don't examine. Aging? Wheeeeeeeeeeee! Bad habits, failure to create much of anything important in a long, long time. I disappoint myself in very many ways, confound my own talents and promise, and waste opportunities. Sometimes I feel like I'm sleepwalking.

Suckage? Of course! And pretty much every single person has issues that would paint a pretty bleak picture if they were to frame their existence in those terms. Brad Pitt? His life SUCKS. That happy couple who just passed by? MAJOR SUCKAGE. Your boss? Your neighbor? The woman on the bus? TEH SUXOR!

Because nobody has it all figured out. Nobody can look at themselves and say, "wow, I really got everything I wanted; I did the very best I could do in all things and am loved and admired by one and all." Coupled people miss their freedom and become exhausted by the expectations of their lovers; parents sometimes resent the tyranny of love and responsibility that their children represent; single people long for connection and affection; childless people feel an emptiness of purpose; successful business people wonder why they wasted all their passion and energy on meaningless things... etc.

And the big secret is that most of them are looking at each other and feeling envious. Somebody is looking at you and thinking, "there's a young single guy who can do as he pleases and is as free as the wind... why did I ever give that up?" and you may be looking at him and thinking, "why does he get to have the beautiful wife and happy family life? What does he have that I don't have?" Do you see how that goes 'round and 'round? Age envies the beauty of youth, youth envies the confidence and assurance of age, accomplishment misses spontaneity, freedom longs for security, country life misses city lights... And very, very few manage to appreciate what they have when they have it. So the big joke is that they can go through an entire life always unsatisfied and looking ahead, or looking back, or looking at their neighbor, and regretting what they don't have at that very moment, yet within a lifetime have all those things while never being able to appreciate any of them when they are happening. Tragic.

I think that there's a very good chance you will meet someone, pie, and fall in love, and she with you. And things will not be all better. Because you will have to deal with her moods, and her bad habits, and her expectations of you. And she will have to deal with those things, as well, on her side. And some days you will wish that you could just come home to an empty house and do whatever you feel like doing without fitting it into somebody else's schedule or preferences. But some days will be the best ever! At some moments tenderness and joy will just overwhelm you, and you'll not believe you could be so lucky.

But guess what? You have the same potential for joy and gratitude in the life you have right now. Do that stuff you are thinking of doing... take some trips, excursions, start exercising, as Jan suggests; get involved in the things that interest you - because you will not always be perfectly free to do that whenever you wish. Explore and enjoy the gifts that you have right now instead of waiting until conditions in your life change and then wishing you had that luxury.

This, more than anything, I think, is key. Be able to enjoy what you do have when you have it, because those things shift and change. And I totally agree that a big part of this is getting out of your own head and thinking about yourself constantly... If your entire focus is on yourself, naturally you can't help but find that everything isn't ideal, and that there are painful gaps, parts missing. Of course there are parts missing! That's how life is organized! How would we ever deal with having everything at once? It would be like a KFC Famous Bowl, except with ice cream, mustard, pop tarts, and creme de menthe on top.

Continue your work with therapy, meds and meditation, pie, and focus on seeing those good things in your life that you are overlooking right now. Use your freedom to do a bit of travelling, the odd excursion... revel in the fact that you can do any hobby or project without worrying about how that affects someone else. And don't be angry that you can't have it all at once. Try to savor the tastes that are on the plate now, because when the next course comes, you'll be on to something else. But most of all, don't imagine everyone as players on your life stage who are all trying to keep something from you, or are huddled around their own delicious Famous Bowl, fending you off. It's not like that... we're all just shuffling our own condiments over here, trying to put it together in some way that tastes good to us.

*hugs pie*

I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said better in this thread. You've got a lot of people pulling for you, bud.

I guess this is extra proof that pie is not exactly 3. Turns out, pie really is a complex number.

{{hugs}}

Heya. I'm a northerner. We don't talk about feelings. We're rough tough proto-vikings (vikings are from further down south) who die in snowpiles because we're supposed to "walk it off". We walk everything we don't drink off. But yeah, I've been there in the dark holes of crying all day and not having the energy to ever leave the bed. Ask anyone who knows me and they'll tell you that I'm there right now, I'm working on it.

There are a few things that help me that might help you.
1) Travel. If there's a little dosh, I love traveling not only because I see new stuff but because it kicks my daydreaming about the future and possibilities into gear. Flat broke and severely depressed in London, I used to hang around Victoria station until I found an affordable train going somewhere on the weekends and thus got to see Brighton beach and other places. The more dosh the further away you can get, obviously. I like going somewhere alone.

2) Food. All I want to do is eat ordered in pizza when I'm sad. But making something complicated brings good things to the table (pun!). It's a project I can do. I go out, get the gear, fresh exotic fruits, fresh produce, spices maybe fresh fish from a market and so on. I drag all this heavy crap home - so it gets me out of the house and forces me to interact with people but only doing my claimed job which is getting that food. I cut slice dice and cook some complicated Korean dish or Japanese thing. Once done I get a feeling of accomplishment and I get to eat the yummy stuff too.

3) Physical exercise. I'm terrible at gyms and such so bikerides are my thing. I can watch the landscape and listen to music and maybe blare something angry in my headphones while I try to break a speedrecord. Always bring another set of music so after the angry you start the happy-but-loud-as-hell. Try and sing along. (I don't give a toss if people think I'm crazy, it's THE CURE Man!) This really make me feel really good, and sweaty afterward.

Hugs.

It is so appropriate that taz writes from Greece. It's like she's channeling the wisdom of Athena.

hee! Thanks, Meeks; I'm a total Athena fangirl, for true. I wuv her.

A Cherokee Parable, this version mostly taken from here, adapted a bit based on other versions I've heard:

A Cherokee chief speaks to his grandson.

"A fight is constantly going on inside me," he says to the boy. "It is a terrible fight at times, and the fight is between two wolves. One wolf is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, jealousy, and ego. The other wolf is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."

The grandson thinks about what his grandfather has said to him for a minute and then asks, "Grandfather, which wolf will win?"

The man replies, "The one I feed."

Okay, this is one of those legendary threads; amazing great stuff here. I can't add much in my own voice except to say that, hey, me too, I've been where you are, I've done what you've done and finally, fucking finally, being as I am some 13 or 14 years older than you, I have gotten to the point where I get to burn the T-shirt. So I'm nthing what everyone else said about how we all feel this way from time to time if not all the time. Turning off your mind is part of the key, as I know you know from Zen practice and EJ nails it: exercise helps that tremendously. I need to do walking meditation (aka just walking and staring into space) to get to the point where no mind is really no mind instead of constant inner babble.

You can get there. I think you've been there before and I know you can get there again. Remember that it is cyclical and life always, always changes no matter what we do. No such thing as stuck. And mindfulness is the other key - every time you start that endless cycle of enumerating each bean on the plate "I feel bad but I shouldn't so I feel bad for feeling bad for feeling bad" ad nauseam, notice that. Don't judge it, just say to yourself, "Hey, self, you're doing it again." Then walk on.

Anyway. I wasn't going to use my words but ah well I did, still, I'm going to leave you with some words of others that you may recognize. By the way, your Zen stuff has always inspired me, so, um, here:

No thought, no reflection, no analysis, no cultivation, no intention; let it settle itself.

Let your mind wander in simplicity, blend your spirit with the vastness, follow along with things the way they are, and make no room for personal views-then the world will be governed.

Be soft in your practice. Think of the method as a fine silvery stream, not a raging waterfall. Follow the stream, have faith in its course. It will go its own way, meandering here, trickling there. It will find the grooves, the cracks, the crevices. Just follow it. Never let it out of your sight. It will take you.

There is nothing you can see that is not a flower; there is nothing you can think that is not the moon.

Whoah. I just got successive serious shivers [this is good] ones, first from occhi, then from mgl.

This thread is pretty great.

Good stuff, good pie.

I don't have a lot to add to this thread. I'll just post something that helped me when I was fighting through my bout of depression. I dunno how useful it'll be for you, the other person I passed this on to called it purile drivel and useless. I disagree with his assessment however, I've found to get out from under depression one needs to simply realize that all they have to do is stop. I decided to stop feeling that way and everytime one of those thoughts entered my head I would simply push it out again. Anyways, enough rambling, and here's the little poem (I think it's Dr Seuss, who doesn't love Seuss?):

On Facing Up to Adversity:

It's a troublesome world,
and all the people who are in it
are troubled with troubles
almost every minute.

Just tell yourself, Ducky,
you're really quite lucky.
Some people are much more,
oh ever so much more,
muchly, much-much more
unlucky than you.

(Maybe some aid work in Asia, South America or Africa would help you feel better? Maybe just start working in a shelter or a soup kitchen? Not to use other people's troubles to make you feel better but to help them because you can, because, regardless of how you feel while doing it, it will make a difference in their life, however small.)

Whoa. whoa. I wanna print this thread out and paste it around my bedroom.

Hey, pie, I don't really have anything to add, others wiser and more articulate than I have said waaaaay better things that I ever could. but please keep remembering these words, you know? You're pretty fucking cool.

I meant, the words above me. although you can remember that you're pretty fucking cool, too. That's also good.

Yes, lots of great stuff here. (That may be my favoritest comment evar, taz.)

Wonderful thread and many whuffles to pi. I've had great support from y'all bunnies and want to take this time to say: THANK YOU!

Wow. What an amazing amount of beautiful, beautiful wisdom. Thank you, everyone, and especially pie, for sharing.

Wow.

This is a wonderful thread, bunnies.

Nine years ago I chucked just about everything away (job, home, mum's apron strings, etc.) and moved to Seattle. I was told at the time that I was either brave, crazy or stupid or some combo of the three. The thought of being in the same place 10, 20, 30 years down the line was horrifying. I think that's what gave me the courage to do it.

There have been lots of ups and downs in that nine years, the big one being the depression I'm finally dealing with, but I'd still rather be where I am now than anywhere else.

Up until your recent posts, pie, I've thought you were someone who had everything going for him. It saddens me that it's not the case. I hope you can find your way out of where you are, emotionally, job-wise, etc. *big hugs*

In my worst depression, i dropped out of school, i travelled by the seat of my pants, ate out of dumpsters, met the weirdest and craziest people. In some ways i essentially stopped growing and started being, but now 7 years later i realize that i did quite a bit of growing then too.

I'm not sure how my story would help you other than to say that the route you take is yours and only yours. You get get to choose your own adventure. The general feel in this thread is support, and most if not all of it is good. But you have to pick and choose which parts fit you.

I recommend travelling, at least out of the city you are in.

"Every day, do something that scares you." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Your username has always made me smile.

My early 30s was 15 years ago for me. What I can tell you Pi is that a lot happens in the next ten years. By the time you are 40, you will know who you are, you will feel comfortable in your skin

I don't think it's helpful or even accurate to claim that people's lives line up neatly by decade. Expecting to have yourself sorted out by age n can set you up for even more of what you're feeling.

As mudpuppie says, you'll always be that emo teenager. But you'll layer lots of other things on top. Over time you'll try lots of things and accumulate lots of stories and friends and interesting things to think about, and from a distance those accumulated stories eventually start resolving into patterns that look a little like what we think of as wisdom.

One of those stories will be about how you're feeling now, and what it made you do and say, and what your friends here said to try to help you out. Some of their words will resonate immediately; some won't seem to apply at all; others may make more sense, or less sense, a year or two down the road.

Take good care. Thank you for posting this, and thanks to everyone who showed up to help.

Pie, if you like Zen, pick up the Osho Zen Tarot. It's maybe $20-30 bucks, and it's awesome. It has nothing to do with telling the future; it helps you tell the present. It's a powerful meditative tool if you're receptive.

The first thing you should do is pull... I think it's 5 of Rainbows: The Outsider. The card depicts a child looking through a fence at colored lights. So intent is the child on the lights that he does not see that the lock on the gate is not fastened; all he has to do is step forward and through the gate. The most powerful part of the deck is the booklet that comes with it. Look up the card in the book, read the parable and the commentary, and then meditate. Do this again with XI - Strength (in the major Arcana). Then shuffle the deck and pull a card at random. Once you're in the right frame of mind, start trying to tell a story with the cards. Mix it up. Have fun with it and yet make it sacred (fun actually is sacred; don't tell the Catholics).

Myself, I have a simple spread I usually use with the cards. I start with one card, pulled at random. This goes in the center and symbolizes me, right now. Then I pull two more cards, one to the left and one to the right of my card. These symbolize the past and the future (or causality/potentiality, since it's not predictive); what got me to where I am, and where I could be/would like to be. I pull two more cards; one goes above my central card; the other below. The one below is what's holding me back while the one above is my strength, what's in me that I can use to help me get through where I am now. Sometimes I will pull one last card, which I will put on top of my central card (partially occluding it). This is the central theme, what pulls everything together. Sometimes I call it the Resolution (though is anything ever fully resolved? remember, it's a process). I take these cards, and I read about each one of them and assemble a narrative in my head. I get imaginative and play around with them for a little while (no more than ~15 min. of contemplation, not including set-up) and then I put them away. This is all the introspection I will allow myself while there are things I could be doing. Like a Navajo sand painting, once it is done I must destroy it. Take the wisdom and beauty you can from the moment, and then let go. Let it go.

I don't even have time to read all the comments that rolled in overnight. I've got to leave town momentarily to do this. I'll check when I get back. Thanks, everybody!

Hey Pie... I'm at work and haven't caught up on this thread, but the themes here sound familiar to my own life and when we met a couple times it seemed like we had a lot in common. It sounds like you're taking important steps to take care of yourself and that's awesome. I hear a lot of comparing your life to other peoples' lives, which is really anti-Zen. We're all on our own path and have our own obstacles to overcome, most of which are invisible to outsiders. The smiling at women on the bus example is a good example of an instance were we have no fricking idea of where other people are on their life path and why they act the way they do. I have close friends who are survivors of sexual assault. Statistically, 1 in 3 women have survived assaults like this. There is a systematic oppression in our society and that doesn't reflect on you as an individual, but it does speak to what your responsibilities are as a human being to end all human suffering in order to create a world where your idealism of equality is practical and fair. Equality and parity in the smiling example simply does not exist, because the stakes are different right when you step on the bus for participants because of their preexistent oppression within society.

So why is this example important to your current trials on your life path? I don't know for you, but for me, I also struggled with this idea of feeling able to appreciate the beauty of women around me. I also felt deeply, deeply guilty that I might be harming them in some way, with some cognitive dissonance around the logical idea that I shouldn't have to feel guilt. And it was, and has been, a piece of my depression. What this says to me, is that the oppression against women in society is interconnected with all oppression. Men are oppressed and will be forever oppressed so long as women are oppressed. Not feeling free to exchange well-intentioned, pleasant and demonstrably harmless non-verbal communication with women on the bus is oppression that you experience. The women you meet ARE NOT the oppressors. The harassers are. If you must be angry, be angry at the perpetrators. Or, don't be angry at all, because anger is a poison that you take yourself and hope your enemy falls dead. After all, the harassers themselves are caught up in a system of oppression that they are acting within.

I had to do a lot of the self-work that you're describing at the beginning of this thread in order to make peace and resolution with the above particular example of how I experience oppression as a male. I still smile at women on the bus, and I take it with grace when they don't smile back and I accept it as a simple, voluntarily given gift when they do. I also try to smile at all women, regardless of whether I'm attracted to them. In general, I do a lot of smiling at everybody and it hides a lot of my social phobia and makes me more approachable. Most of my acquaintances don't experience me as shy at all any more. I have this overheard quote that I heard somewhere outside Ashton Hall at IU in my head, "I smile at all the girls. I smile at the pretty ones because it makes me feel good and I smile at all the other ones because it helps them feel good." It's a somewhat asinine quote, but it's something of a mantra that isn't quite so sexist in my own head.

Feminism, in it's academic form, has many branches and many opinions, but the basic focus on the connections of gender and oppression has a lot of say about the oppression we experience as men in society. If you're feeling generous, you might read this interview: http://www.motherjones.com/arts/qa/1999/09/faludi.html

It's great that you see Metachat as your community, and I really appreciate how people support each other here, but Internet communities, are in no way, shape or form replacements for day-to-day, continuous and trusting local communities of support. If only because it's a lot easier to share your views about sensitive things in a non-threatening way when you have body language and vocal inflections and face-to-face history working in your favor. There are a truckload of open communities to meet people of both genders in Portland. How about volunteering? http://www.handsonportland.org/