I was wondering why my boss has just got a Beatle haircut and started carrying a gas canister round the office.

He wants to drink your milkshake! He wants to drink it up!!

It's been very interesting to read everyones comments on Zed's rant about Rails. They are in general so full of denial, minimization of the issues, vilifying the victim, diversion, and all sorts of things that it was impossible not to compare this to the characteristics of psychopathology.

Isn't every* internet discussion dominated by "denial, minimization of the issues, vilifying the victim, diversion, and all sorts of things"? I think that it's a function of the fact that commenters on forums or message boards don't seem like real people sometimes. There's a lack of empathy, a lack of shame, and a lack of moderation in almost all online communication that tends to read a bit psychopathic.

These tendencies are currently being discussed on a community email list run by my alma mater. Someone recently pointed out that even quiet, studious, warm-hearted, intelligent people will from time to time post inflammatory posts filled with intentional mis-characterizations of other students.

* A slight exaggeration

Oh, wow. This one hit home:

“Facts” are to a psychopath only what he feels is convenient for his current purposes or desires. Since there are no facts every discussion becomes a manipulative struggle.

My old bully boss really would argue the color of ink on a page - not "cyan vs. blue" but "red vs. blue" and "right vs. left".

One of my present colleagues here is like her in that way, too: "Perception is reality" was one of his mantras until someone shut him up, and trying to get him to use facts in his statements has been an exercise in futility.

And we're not even a software company. I think this happens everywhere.

Hmm, on actually reading the article, my post was a bit off-topic. But still relevant? maybe?

my post was a bit off-topic. But still relevant? maybe?

Well, it's relevant to the question of whether it's concentrated in the software industry or just more talked about on the 'net.

Books abound IRL about how to deal with XYQ type of people; they're just not called "evil" or sociopaths most of the time.

Books that come to mind:
People of the Lie
Dinosaur Brians
Managing Workplace Negativity

And then my favorite site: http://www.bullybusters.org.

It's all over the place. I think Netizens are more shocked that it's happening to them because they thought it wasn't supposed to. We're all supposed to be equal and empowered and Not Ever Hassled Again.

Well, the equal and empowered parts are true to an extent; what we didn't count on was that our flaws follow us online, no matter how hard we try to hide them. In fact they come out even more obviously when we try harder to hide them.

I think the process of ponerization in computer based organisations should be renamed pwnerization.

I think there are a few problems with the article. First is this assumption that a perceived behaviour is psychopathic. I'm not sure it is. I get the feeling that zed and the writer of the article are blaming some of their own character flaws on psychopathy in others. Saying "If you know what to look for, you'll see what I mean." without giving any examples strongly reinforces my opinion on this.

As does the given examples of "dev lynches", etc. That's not psychopathy, that's packing behaviour / mob mentality.

I also don't like the implication that somehow psychopaths choose the companies. I think the reality is much darker than that, and that the organisations actually need psychopaths in order to survive. That's a theory, but to my mind it fits in with the figure of 5% for the percentage of the population that actually display psychopathic tendencies. I think a figure that high wouldn't exist unless it enabled communities or tribes or companies to exist in a competitive world.

To my mind, the question isn't "What can we do to stop psychopaths?". It's "What can we do to stop psychopaths harming the societal structures they belong to?", "How do we best use psychopaths to ensure the survival of these societal structures?", "How do we personally manage in situations containing psychopaths?" and "how do we ensure that the percentage of psychopaths stays in that useful 5% range?"

There's a tendency to think that the world would be a better place if everyone thought like we thought. This seems especially prevalent in liberal circles. I believe however that we need a mix & the reality of this mix means having to deal with people who just seem plain illogical or evil. Salespeople are a great example here, and as alien as they are to me in terms of the psychiatric pathology, they're really useful.

re: The technological threshold.
pictures for sad children commented on the singularity a couple of days ago. Needless to say, I'm now ashamed and embarrassed I ever believed in the nearness of the singularity.

I think the reality is much darker than that, and that the organisations actually need psychopaths in order to survive.

How do we build organisations that don't need psychopaths?

Books abound IRL about how to deal with XYQ type of people; they're just not called "evil" or sociopaths most of the time.

The Sociopath Next Door

I'm not so sure that organizations inherently need sociopaths, but I do think that Western capitalist society, especially business society, tends to reward sociopathic tendencies. Take risks and damn the consequences, use people to get ahead and damn the relationships, etc. We're working our way quite definitely toward a society that does not value interconnectedness, interdependency, and relationships, so seeing a lot of displays of narcissistic, un-compassionate behavior shouldn't really surprise us, I fear.

Unless you're not competing for limited resources, I'm not sure you can.
I think the question you're asking there is like asking "How do you win a boxing match without hitting your opponent?"

I'm also not sure you should. As long as the psychopaths are kept from doing really bad things, and they provide a benefit, why not use them. There's also a moral consideration here. I'm not comfortable with the idea that I should be able to say to someone "You're the best person for the job, but I'm not giving it to you because you're genetically wired to think slightly differently to me." It just doesn't seem right.

Thanks for pictures for sad children.

We're working our way quite definitely toward a society that does not value interconnectedness, interdependency, and relationships, so seeing a lot of displays of narcissistic, un-compassionate behavior shouldn't really surprise us, I fear.

We're already there.

(pictures for sad children is harsh. And right on the money, too.)

How do we build organisations that don't need psychopaths?

Better get that revolution of yours in gear, BtGoG.

Thanks for the wonderful article Grace--it hits very close to home as far as the places I've been working at are concerned. I wonder, if this is generic to the Software Industry, or are other businesses susceptible to it too.

The first job that I got, was in GE, and when I'd landed it I was really excited because this was the first time I was meeting such talented and dynamic people. They were full of boundless optimism and were very keen on welcoming me into their family. I was awed. But soon, there was something that just wasn't right about what was going on, and it took me awhile before I could put my finger on it.

After about a month or so of coaching, we were released onto the floor, and were expected to do our jobs. These jobs basically consisted of taking calls from customers of a local department store chain located in the US, and give them the information that they'd want. Sometimes the cashiers at the registers would call up too, and we'd have to help them out as well. I won't say that it was the easiest job in the world, even though all I had to do was sit on a chair, in the fucking airconditioning, take some calls, answer a few questions, and go home. But, I just couldn't. These were people who'd call in, some of them with some serious debt, and would be wanting to buy even more stuff, and all I could think about was--how the hell are you going to be able to make payments on this shit. Others would want to buy something for their children, but would not have enough balance available, and I would have to inform them of that. It was not something that I liked to do, to the fact that I would DREAD going to the office the next evening (we worked during the nights so that we could take your calls during the day). I would have these weird nightmares, and would hardly sleep half an hour at a time, if that much. I told this to my manager, and he shrugged it off. He said it happens, you'll get used to it. But I didn't want to get used to it. I wanted to get OUT, and be myself again. So I don't have a great job (money-wise at least) anymore, at least I'll have some peace of mind. And this sort of work would never ever work out for me. (He just couldn't let me go, because if he did, that would be a mark against him, since he was the one who hired me, and so I had to leave without a proper resignation.)

I often wondered how the rest of the people who worked there could do what they did. I'm sure they're not mentally off-balance, but I don't think they're totally in touch with what they're doing either. I was afraid to reveal my feelings to anyone for fear of being labeled god only knows what, but during my stay there--the general view was--we're here to earn money. That's the bottom line. Everything else is not our problem.

And the thing that hurts the most was, these were really good people who thought this way. In any other circumstance, they would've been totally the opposite, but it's because they needed the money to support themselves, their families, that they were drawn in to this way of thinking.

I don't know if we actually need sociopaths, apart from crisis situations perhaps. In all normal situations the intrinsic lack of empathy can only result in flawed decision making.

Sociopaths (or more correctly, Axis II Cluster B Personality Disorders) often create extreme situations, or crises, for themselves to feel important. That is not useful or productive behaviour. How much of 'history' is the result of this type of behaviour? Not to mention recent history.

IMHO, a sociopath's decision making is not trust-worthy due to their lack of basic human emotions that I value and their motivation. nickyskye uses the phrase 'hyena emotions' to describe the emotions that they can experience.

“all those in the Axis II Cluster B group of destructive personality disorders (NPD, BPD, HPD and ASPD) are capable of many emotions. I call the emotions people in this group can feel, "the hyena emotions, emotions such as rage, seductiveness, pride, exhileration, predatorial interest, fear, bitterness, shame, disgust, anxiety, loss, triumph, gloating, envy, jealousy, lust, boredom, malice, sadism, hilarity, contempt, cunning...”

A core issue with the Axis II Cluster B group is that they are predatorial in their approach to relationships, because of their inability to connect with loving good will. I use the term "hyena emotions" to depict a primitive emotional state in them that is not benevolent, as a way of protecting oneself from the damage they are very capable of committing.

The intent of using such a term is not so much to denigrate the people with Cluster B PDs, it is to educate those who have had a run in with them, survived an enmeshment, been stalked, conned...or married to one and now in deep pain. It's a way for the survivors of enmeshments with Cluster B PDs, who may have been previously blinded by the superficial charisma of their spouse, to work on detaching, healing from the damage done and moving forward.

I understand what you are saying Sean, and I have had fairly productive relationships with people who are on the spectrum. It requires a lot of caution in interperating what they say to you and what you say to them. It is hard, emotionally draining work.

However, a person who is on the spectrum and either not aware of this or in denial is extremely dangerous to those around them. There is no cure for a person on the spectrum, the only way to deal with this is for them to manage their own behaviour. The first step (and every other step) is for them to actually want to do something about their behaviour.

It could be argued that our consumerist society has a personality disorder, concerned as it is with outward shows of success whilst ignoring and denying the emptiness at it's heart. Continually striving to impress rather than address the underlieing motivation for this behaviour.