Whiskeytown were amazing. I assume you know that Strangers Almanac is coming out soon as a double, packed full of rarities. Although, the tracks don't seem to include stuff like Wither I'm A Flower from whatever that promo/rare EP thing that I don't have but one of my brothers does. Git!

I was sad to read this today too, but, as with many publications, teh intarwebs have put a lot of magazines out of business because all the information we need is out there on the web now.

No Depression was a damn fine publication through-and-through. I haven't read it in quite a while, as my taste in twang evolved from alt.country to freak folk (I like the term "noise folk" a bit more, but whatever). Of course, I found out about most of those freak folk bands back when they were young, alt.country raconteurs in large part because of No Depression.

Aw. Punk Planet last year and No Depression this year. I guess this is the way of the times and whatnot, but it's still pretty sad.

Is Chunklet still around?

.

Is Chunklet still around?

Apparently so.

pokermonk, I'm curious as to what you would classify as "noise folk". The things I've heard that've been called "freak folk" left me pretty underwhelmed. Then again, I've also heard Comets On Fire classified that way, which just made me scratch my head - plenty of freak, not much folk, which is the polar opposite of my idea of "freak folk".

The things I've heard that've been called "freak folk" left me pretty underwhelmed.

I agree with you; the label sometimes seems to me just a way to shine up what's really more acoustic, roots-influenced, singer-songwriter music. It's a continuation of, but not a departure from, a lot of 20th century music that got called 'folk.'

I don't care for the label 'folk,' either, because it's confusing. Some people use it to mean traditional music, others traditionally inspired music, and still others, original songwriting with influences far beyond folk traditions.

What, exactly, was wrong with the term 'country music,' might I ask?

(that quibble aside, No Depression was a good rag)

(and most of the artists in No Dep, I'd think of as country or country-rock. I realize the 'alt' was a way to differentiate them from say, Toby Keith, but if I heard somebody actually use the term in an actual coversation, I usually put them in my pay-no-mind file)

Alt. country is/was a reaction to what is percieved by many (including myself) as the plastic, suburban nature of what passes as "country" music these days. If Nashville has no room for a Merle Haggard or a Loretta Lynn, it ain't all that country anymore.

On preview: It's like differentiating between hair metal and black metal. I always preferred the term "insurgent country", myself.

I always assumed (as a born and bred Okie) that the Garth Brooks divide provided the need for a new label. To take bmarkey's point further, add the term "pop-" to anything (metal, hip-hop, punk, whatever) and ensure that it makes money, and there will be a natural subset that tries to reclaim the roots.

And, yes, I do realize that Nashville had turned its head quite a bit earlier than Garth, but I think he definitely pushed that final thrust of Country into the mainstream, making way for Shania, Faith Hill, Tim McGraw, and whoever the "She Thinks my Tractor is Sexy" guy was.

I enjoyed the downloads, bmarkey, thank you.

My friends who do this style (kinda, more strings, more layers) now use the cumbersome phrase "alt-americana" to describe what they do.

bmarkey, I realize that, but at the same time, I always cringe when any additional label gets attached to one that's already perfectly fine. Plus, I really hate genre hairsplitting.

Good point, ufez. If you wanted, you could push the pop infiltration date back to the late 50s and the rise of the "countrypolitan" sound. God bless Patsy Cline, but whoever drenched her in strings will have a warm corner of hell awaiting their demise.

If you don't want to go back that far, we can lay some of the blame at the feet of anybody involved with the Urban Cowboy dealie back in the 80s. Kenny Rogers = country? Really?

jon, generally I'm right there with you on the hair-splitting thing, but I think there's a big enough difference to warrent it here.

Let's take a little taste test. Who sounds "country" to you: Big & Rich or Uncle Tupelo?

Oops, that was supposed to be "who sounds more 'country' to you".

Also, I meant to put this one in the original post:

Robert Earl Keen - Feelin' Good Again

I'm glad you like 'em, rainbaby. Whiskeytown was definitely one of the best bands of the 90s.

I like Uncle Tupelo better, but Big & Rich* are OK under certain circumstances (the 'Save A Horse..' somg was a t least funny). And complaining about 'pop' infiltration into 'pure' country is a bit silly. Merle Haggard has cited Bing Crosby as a huge influence and Jimmie Rodgres recorded with just about everybody from Satchmo to Hawaiian pop singers. Hank Williams performed his songs with Tony Bennett. I'm too old and too tired to care about 'cred,' if I like a song, I like a song.

*and I like the Bottle Rockets better than both, but then again I also kind of liked 'Honkytonk Badonkadonk,' so I'm not your man here.

Whiskeytown was definitely one of the best bands of the 90s.

I ahve to diagree here. I cannot stand Ryan Adams. What I've heard of Whiskeytown has not lived up to the hype. YMMV.

It's not about cred, it's about sound. I'm all for musical miscegenation of all stripes, but there is something to be said for the rougher-edged side of country.

Shania Twain's pop excesses are no more country than Celine Dion's cover of "You Shook Me All Night Long" was rock & roll, yet Shania is all over "country" radio. There's room for that sort of thing, or course, but why does it have to be at the expense of someone like Mary Gauthier or Neko Case or Buddy & Julie Miller?

On preview: post-Whiskeytown, Ryan Adams has crawled right up his own ass, but Stranger's Almanac is a masterpiece.

but there is something to be said for the rougher-edged side of country.

Of course ther is, but my initial point was country (and blues and everyother 'pure' genre) has always been influenced by 'pop,' at least since the invention of the phonograph and the radio. And the minute a prefix gets added to a perfectly good genre name, people start trying to outdo eachother with how 'alt' they are rather than just enjoying the music.

And to my ears, most of the bands in No Dep could be easily described as country-rock or country without muddying the waters further.

I dunno, I don't care for country, as a rule, or folk, but I like things that are called alt-whatever, by whomever. Acoustic is another word that gets thrown around. Then there are other things that get called new-country, and I don't care for those either. So more labels = more ability to express what you listen to other folks. No?

Oooh! jonmc, how would you label The Gear Daddies?

And to my ears, most of the bands in No Dep could be easily described as country-rock or country without muddying the waters further.

Well, the point of the prefix is to clarify, actually. If you just lump Toby Keith and Dwight Yoakum and Jay Farrar together as "country", the term becomes watered-down to the point of being meaningless. It's not "outdoing" anybody so much as striving for accuracy.

Or, what rainbaby said.

So more labels = more ability to express what you listen to other folks. No?

No. More labels equal more pigeonholes and more cliqueishness, at least to me. YMMV.

Oooh! jonmc, how would you label The Gear Daddies?

country-punk. (more than one hyphen, or the addition of alt, alternative, or (heaven help us) post- as a general genre heading=bad. not necceasrily meaning the music described by the label is bad, just that the label is bad.)

Talk about splitting hairs...

I'm being facetious, bmarkey (although I do hate those terms, 'post,' especially). It just sort of reeks of being somehow ashamed of the actual genre. 'we're country, but we're different, we're alt-post-country...' No, you're country. Beyond the basic genres, there's only two kinds of music: that you like and that you don't like.

also, for music bridging the gap between country and punk, what was wrong with 'cowpunk?' A lot more style than 'alt.country,' if you ask me.

Yeah, jonmc, I respect your opinion on all things musical, but music is sort of hard to talk about in regular language, because it's music, not language (duh, rainbaby) - so why not alt/post/fusion whatever to try to attempt to describe what you hear? I don't get how punk is an acceptable hyphen (and I don't even get that, I'd say post, but I'm not an expert), when other things aren't. Whatever, I genuinely appreciate the music in this thread, it's what I tend to gravitate to. Plus trance. Or is it dance? Who cares? People just want to talk about it, somehow, and enjoy it. Or not.

I so just updated my i pod with bmarkeys stuff plus Gear Daddies stuff.

so why not alt/post/fusion whatever to try to attempt to describe what you hear?

Well, as someone who reads and writes as much about music as I do, they're kind of hackneyed, shopworn terms and when i see a reviewer use them, I automatically think 'lazy writer.' That may be just me, though.

But you haven't offered any alternatives, other than punk, to describe what you are hearing, jonmc. I'd love better words. What are they?

For a while, you could call them 'No Depression-type artists,' but maybe not anymore.

(Hmm--it's usually either geographic regions or record labels. Are there any other serial-publication-based examples?)

(Thought of one: MRR, kinda sorta anyway.)

I'd love better words. What are they?

outlaw country. country rock. the aforementioned 'cowpunk.' Or I'll ditch taxonomy entirely and just describe the sound.

Doesn't 'outlaw country' already refer to that Waylon/Willie/etc. stuff from the '70s? (I dunno--I'm asking.)

It just sort of reeks of being somehow ashamed of the actual genre.

What the... where the hell are you getting that from? We're talking about musicians who voluntarily came to play this music - it wasn't forced on them in any way.

Well, as someone who reads and writes as much about music as I do, they're kind of hackneyed, shopworn terms and when i see a reviewer use them, I automatically think 'lazy writer.' That may be just me, though.

As someone who reads and writes about music as much as you do - it's just you.

Not to say that lazy writers don't use those terms, but so do some really informative writers, too. It's an effective, descriptive shorthand. Is it ideal? No. Is it always 100% correct? No. Is it possible to go overboard with it? Of course. But that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

To follow your line to its logical conclusion: why not do away with genre altogether? It's all music, right? Why try to describe it any more than that? Calling it anything other than "music" is mere pretension.

Doesn't 'outlaw country' already refer to that Waylon/Willie/etc. stuff from the '70s?

Yep. And "cowpunk" doesn't really describe Buddy & Julie Miller, for example.

Is this where I get to plug 16 Horsepower? (youtube link)

Cuz that's the only No Depression band I went for, but I went for them in a major way.

When I discovered they were part of the No Depression set I started looking through other bands that the magazine covered, but mostly they weren't my cup of tea.

I saw them every time they came through town. I don't even know why they bothered to come here- they had a tiny following compared to their following in Europe, but I'm so grateful they did.

16 HP cover of Hank Williams's "Alone & Forsaken." Apologies to anyone to whom Hank Williams covers are heresy.

(bmarkey. i will do a "noise folk" mecha radio session in the next week or so, because that might be the easiest way to demonstrate how i identify the sound. my very quick summary would be Insignificance-era Jim O'Rourke, YHF-ish Wilco, Soltero, It Still Moves sorta My Morning Jacket, Black Sheep Boy from Okkervil River, Robbie Fulks' Couple in Trouble album. it's far from perfect, but i think it does work effectively to refer to a specific movement/era of a darkening alt.country and a mellowing--sometimes twanging-- noise pop. )

This is the perfect place for Sixteen Horsepower, s_r. They were kinda the Bad Seeds of the alt. country scene, weren't they? Good stuff. I'm trying to think of something else that's kinda close to that sound... maybe Giant Sand? I don't know them real well myself, but here's a song they did with Victoria Williams a while back - Yer Rope.

pokermonk, I am intrigued by your theory and look forward to your show.

music is sort of hard to talk about in regular language, because it's music, not language

Absolutely. And while on the one hand I agree that genre-splitting can become so specific as to be entirely ridiculous, on the other hand, it's pretty useful for finding things you like. That's why I much prefer questions like "I enjoy Jesse Sykes, what else might I like" as opposed to the Pandora-esque "I enjoy downtempo, country-influenced, guitar-based, dark and slurred mellow singer-songwriter material." RIYL is the dream of all media fans - we want to know where to find the more good stuff. Genre labels are handy enough. On the other hand, they drive me nuts - I've been in the record store many times searching for something like Old Crow Medicine Show where I think they belong, only to find they're filed somewhere else. You got your country in my rock'n'roll! You got your bluegrass in my folk!

At some point, you're not really talking about a genre, just a style. The specific description pokermonk just gave (and I dig the sound you're talking about) is definitely a sound or a style if not a movement, but I wouldn't say it's a genre. I do find that the more specific you make a genre handle, the less useful it is, because eventually you get down to such a granular level that you're talking about three or four bands. It's always possible to split genres down into tiny clusters of sound - and then there are those frustrating bands that have flexibility, and play more than one sound. What is to be done?

This bothers me in bookstores, too, by the way. I despise Borders because they've got their fiction section all screwed up - it's not just 'fiction by author.' It's African-American Fiction, Classics, Contemporary Fiction, etc. Come on - I can use the alphabet, after all.

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." -- Elvis Costello

This bothers me in bookstores, too, by the way. I despise Borders because they've got their fiction section all screwed up - it's not just 'fiction by author.' It's African-American Fiction, Classics, Contemporary Fiction, etc. Come on - I can use the alphabet, after all.

There's a Canadian chain that has a branch in SoHo. The fiction section is organized by country and then alphabetized by author.

So if you don't know -- or CARE ABOUT -- the ethnicity of the author you're looking for, you're not going to find his or her stuff on the first go-around.

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." -- Elvis Costello

I thought it was Steve Martin who said that? It's a brilliant line, regardless.

If you're filing records in a store, then yes, basic genre is enough. If you're trying to describe Jesse Sykes to a friend, however, then "down-tempo alt. country" is much more descriptive (and accurate) than just saying "country".

As for "writing about music...", I've also heard it attributed to Frank Zappa. And you just know that somewhere out there is an MFA whose thesis project was a dance based on the work of Frank Lloyd Wright.

And now Harp is suspending publication. Still no word on the richly-deserved yet strangely delayed death of Paste.