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15 January 2008

I'm not proud of this... About three years ago, I decided to test the bad guys get the good girls theory. I was sick of being single. It seemed like a good idea at the time. →[More:]

Despite the advice of female friends, I tried it out. At a do I was attending, I spent the entire evening just being plain mean to one girl. I'd met her a few times before, but I never hit her radar. So I was deliberately mean to her. She really didn't deserve it. I felt guilty for ages afterwards.

I pretty much forced her to buy me a drink then refused to buy one back... I refused to talk to her civilly... I propositioned her, and told her to put out or shut up... I asked her why she was still here... I ignored her questions... When accused of sexism, I said "I don't hate women, I just don't really like you. You bore me." Like I said, I was mean. And I'm really not proud of the way I acted.

Fast forward to now. Last night I had a poetry reading and she was there and I felt really bad again. When I got on stage, I told everyone what had happened. I said the woman was in the audience. I didn't say who it was, but I apologised. And then I apologised again, and then I read my poetry.

Come the end of the evening, I asked my closest confidant, one of the two people in the audience who knew who I was speaking about if the apology was good enough, if it sounded like I meant what I said.

She said, "Yes, it did. But you really didn't need to worry. I was speaking to [the attacked] and she confided in me that she'd met you only once before and whisper she'd nearly snogged you."

So there you go. One minor datapoint in the ever confusing "What women like in men" conversation. There's no conclusion. It was a pretty confusing evening. I still feel bad. But I wonder if my badness was just lost in a general swathe of male nastiness, or if the "women like bastards" thing has it's truths. I wonder if I just hit on the wrong woman, and how many other people would have tolerated the same behaviour. Like I say, I don't know.

Actually, this whole story makes me look real bad. I'll hit preview, and see if I've the nerve to hit post.

post by: seanyboy at: 16:48 | 46 comments

She probably would have snogged you if you had thrown some niceness crumbs in there amidst all the nastiness.

I think the theory has some legs. Say normally, a woman meets a man at an event, and he's nice. Then he says one mean thing, maybe he doesn't even know it's mean. That's what she remembers. "Seemed like a nice guy, until. . "

Reverse the proportions, and gosh, you're rough but really sweet and sensitive.

posted by rainbaby 15 January | 16:53

I wonder if I just hit on the wrong woman, and how many other people would have tolerated the same behaviour.

My guess? Close to zero.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 January | 16:55

But you were attracted to the subject, right? That would have come through and been intriguing. If it was pure science, then no, low chance of toleration. If there was mutual attraction, people tolerate any number of things, at least for a few hours.

posted by rainbaby 15 January | 16:57

sigh. That's disappointing.

No, it doesn't make you look bad. You tried one experiment, decided it was dumb, then did one of the coolest and most gallant things imaginable to remove some of the icky residue.

As for the girl - I don't know her, but I do believe that for the most part, women who go for the 'bad guy' are just not that emotionally mature. It's certainly nothing to generalize to all women. The more a woman values herself and her goals, the less she wants to be treated poorly. In general.

I used to make long arguments that women were sometimes attracted to assholish guys, not because they were assholes, but because they exude confidence. It's true that confidence is generally attractive, but I no longer think it serves as an excuse. There are plenty of confident men in this world who are not assholes. It takes some experience to learn the difference.

There's also a dynamic where the woman hopes she will be The Special One who can break through the assholish demeanor and discover his true and unique tender side which only she knows.

All fantasies at play.

posted by Miko 15 January | 17:00

No, no real attraction on my part. I guess I felt some towards the end. As extreme as my behaviour was, I suppose it fell under the general hood of flirting, and for me, just flirting with someone is enough to tickle the soul.

posted by seanyboy 15 January | 17:02

I'm wondering -- and I have no basis for this -- if it's not the poor treatment that attracts people (assuming they're actually attracted), but the challenge. Maybe not even a challenge, but a desperate need to correct whatever bad impression you've apparently given the person who's treating you so badly. It may be harder to cut and run, to write off the shabby treatment as the asshole's fault, than it is to try to set things straight and prove that you're not a bad person.

That's probably the only reason I'd stick around -- stubbornness, and some sort of guilt that I'd made the wrong first impression.

Yeah, seanyboy, the fact that you were intentionally mean sucks, even if it was just a social experiment. But deep down, we all know (and hopefully you know) that you're not like that, that you're a good guy.

Don't do it again, and put some good stuff out there to counter the bad.

posted by mudpuppie 15 January | 17:03

Wow, is that how your female friends told you to play the bad guy act? You should shoot more for brusque and no-nonsense, make her think she has to prove herself to you. The problem even with this is that eventually you will want to drop the act.

But let me ask this, when you were the good guy, how much of that was an act as well? I'll bet a good bit of it was.

Walk in both directions and shoot for balance.

posted by Ardiril 15 January | 17:21

It's the challenge that attracts gals, I think. If a guy loves us too much, is too good to us, we wonder if he is really much of a catch since he likes US. (It's a self esteem thing.)

Fortunately of all the jerks I have dated, I actually married the one nonjerk that practically thinks I walk on water.

posted by bunnyfire 15 January | 17:26

I think we need to call for testimony from an expert witness.

Dimitrithelover, I'm issuing you a subpoena to report to this thread!

posted by pieisexactlythree 15 January | 17:29

when you were the good guy, how much of that was an act as well? I'll bet a good bit of it was.

Hmmm... I have a few single guy friends who've complained to me: "Nice guys finish last. Maybe I should be more of an asshole to get girls."

In every single instance, the guy was not really a Nice Guy - he just pretended to be nice around hot women. Unsurprisingly, we can all see through that shit.

posted by muddgirl 15 January | 17:31

Hmmm... I have a few single guy friends who've complained to me

Ditto muddgirl. Guys that are truly "nice" to be around do not whine and moan.

posted by ThePinkSuperhero 15 January | 17:40

Guys that are truly "nice" to be around do not whine and moan.

Then here's the true test: Start a whining thread and see if he posts in it.

posted by pieisexactlythree 15 January | 17:53

Nice guys finish last

You can look around and see that is patently not the case. I can think of very few of my female friends who are with assholes.

posted by Miko 15 January | 17:55

My friend has tried this same basic technique based on the "pick up artist" stuff that's out there and he claims success, though he isn't as quick to admit how squeamish it made him feel. Good on you to come around, good luck with future snoggings.

posted by moonbird 15 January | 18:37

Hi seanyboy, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

posted by chrismear 15 January | 18:49

I was reading a discussion recently of the whole bad boy / nice guy thing, and someone very sagely pointed out that the guys who end up caught in that model seem to be basing their assumptions on things that happened in high school, which is not exactly when women are at their most emotionally mature, either.

And yeah, beyond that, I think it's more that "emotionally damaged women like men who treat them like crap." And given that there are a lot of emotionally damaged people out there, I'm sure that techniques specifically designed to prey on their insecurities probably do get people laid. But it seems a sad goal.

Also, seanyboy, I really liked this story. It actually made me feel better about the world, not worse.

posted by occhiblu 15 January | 19:27

In thinking about this "good girls dig bad boys" stuff, and here's my experience: The bad boys may have been jerks to everyone else, but they started paying attention to me. So I felt special and like I was better than the girls that had wanted the guys' attention. It started as a confidence booster. Then I'd think that since these bad boys noticed me, maybe I could somehow 'get through' to them and change them for the better. Then, when they treated me poorly, I made excuses for their behavior. Most of the time, the excuse was that I had done something wrong. There went the confidence.

Once I got my own sense of confidence, these 'bad boy' relationships were really fun. I could go into the relationship knowing that I had the ability to walk away from it if I needed or wanted to. So maybe it really is all about confidence.

posted by youngergirl44 15 January | 19:30

she'd nearly snogged you."

operative word: 'nearly.'

posted by jonmc 15 January | 21:31

I have always been a hopeless "nice guy." I don't even have a notion of what being "bad" would be like.

What do I need to do to be bad?

posted by danf 15 January | 22:27

"What do I need to do to be bad?"

Read this; it's written for women, but you'll get the idea. Also, if you read a bit deeper between the lines, you may finally figure out your boss's issues as well.

posted by Ardiril 16 January | 01:24

The other side of this coin, though, is that an utterly vapid, shallow, dull but hot girl always seems to have her pick of guys, and a woman might make the same sort of test as yours by concentrating solely on externals and acting as empty, dim, and self-centered as possible. Spend enough money on clothes, hair, makeup, fake boobs, insta-tan, etc., and if you aren't too old or too heavy, They Will Come.

But I never once snogged or was even the tiniest bit attracted to a guy who was rude or insulting to me. And in fact, I've observed a strange pattern with the guys who do that bit with me: I act like they are idiot boors/bores and they suddenly turn into persistent, mushy prince charmings. (them: provocative insult; me: cold stare; them: "oh, let me get you a drink!")

Conclusion? People is weird.

posted by taz 16 January | 01:36

There was a show on MTV the other week (yeah, I was actually watching MTV), and the premise of the show was that two girls were pitted against each other to win the affections of a young man. Each girl would get the chance to spend a few sessions alone with the guy, and then at the end of the show, the guy would have to make his decision who he'd rather go out with. In the middle of the programme, the VJ takes one of the girls aside, and asks her whether she'd be interested in winning an Ipod or something (at the cost of losing the game), and after thinking about it for a second or two--she says--yeah (big surprise!). The girl decides to be as rude as she can inorder to win the Ipod, and ends up doing all sorts of disgusting things to the guy--like tossing food at him, cutting him off, not paying any attention to what he's saying--and the guy ends up picking her at the end. His explanation: well, she seemed so different in the beginning of the show, that I just couldn't believe that this was the same person that I'd met earlier.

Ergo: People is weird, like taz says.

also, seanyboy, you're one classy guy for apologizing to her in the middle of a poetry recitation; I bet half the women there would've been swooning for ya;)

posted by hadjiboy 16 January | 02:27

wow.

I think the confidence thing has legs. In fact, I think everyone's on the button here. The whole "people who complain that nice guys finish last are generally assholes" thing is worrying. I was that guy, but I can't see myself as an asshole. I genuinely think of myself as a nice guy. Did my whining about my loneliness make me a bad person? I hope not.

posted by seanyboy 16 January | 03:17

oo, you write poetry? are there any videos of you reading poetry? I'd love to see.

posted by By the Grace of God 16 January | 03:53

You know that guy who is every girls best friend? The one they call when some jerk dumped them, or they "just need to talk", the one they feel safe with? The lone guy at a girls night dinner party? The nice guy, the funny guy, the "I don't think of you in that way" guy? The "he's cute but I'm more into...X" guy?

That's my guy. Them girls don't frickin' know what they're missing.

posted by dabitch 16 January | 08:19

my crack addicted bipolar anti-social personality disordered girlfriend snogs me on a daily basis. some day i hope to have sex with her.

posted by quonsar 16 January | 08:20

That's my guy. Them girls don't frickin' know what they're missing

Hear hear!

posted by hadjiboy 16 January | 08:47

Nice, dabitch!

posted by Miko 16 January | 09:25

Nice? Nono, It's my pleasure trust me. Tee-hee-hee. ;)

posted by dabitch 16 January | 09:50

I genuinely think of myself as a nice guy. Did my whining about my loneliness make me a bad person? I hope not.

Well, probably not. I'm only speaking from my personal experience. And, in my personal experience, "nice guys" who complain about being lonely seem to be attracted to a certain kind of woman - the kind of woman who doesn't really appreciate them or dig them at all. When I point out, "Hey, [b]I'm[/b] dating a nice guy," they invariably say, "Yeah, but you're different"; meaning, I suppose, that I'm not attractive, and therefore have to settle for the nice ones.

posted by muddgirl 16 January | 09:57

I feel like there are moments when we are all assholes, especially moments of stress. I know that I've decided that all men suck because I've just been dumped, and I actually kind of enjoy doing the whole "Boys suck!" or "Girls suck!" thing with friends who are having relationship problems. I think an extended moment of self-righteous self-pity happens to us all from time to time, and does not make us bad people.

It's people who adopt the self-righteous self-pity as a permanent lifestyle choice, and treat others badly because of it, and don't snap out of it or seem to be able to ever see it from the other person's point of view, who have firmly moved into asshole territory.

That's what I think, anyway. My forgiveness for those who can pull themselves back from all-or-nothing, I'm-better-than-you, I'm-entitled-to-whatever-I-want thinking is boundless. :-)

posted by occhiblu 16 January | 10:24

I have dated a self-professed "nice guy" and after a while it was just fucking awful. He was whiny and manipulative, and most of his "nice" persona was generated by being willing for me (and other girls that he has dated since) to walk all over him. The break up was long and protracted because he refused to believe I wanted to dump him, and kept trying to get back together with me (I am very glad I never relented).

posted by gaspode 16 January | 10:37

I don't know that I buy the "women really do go for nice guys," thing. I don't buy the 'bad boy' thing either. When women say that want a 'bad boy,' it dosen't mean they want to date a psycho ex-con, just that don't want a milquetoast lapdog either.

As for the 'nice guy,' thing...that's a bit overstated, too, since it seems to imply that women are somehow less 'supericial' and 'looks oriented' than men and I've seen too much to believe that. Back in my single days, my oft-mentioned buddy Rob was my main running buddy when we went out on the town. I spent many a night monitoring the jukebox and running for drinks while women smart enough to know better sat there and drooled over him like schoolgirls, leaving me to play Ralph Malph to his Fonzie. Not only was he a handsome guy, he was also rich, in a band and was a heroic firefighter. In short, he was the alpha male of our particular pack, which is what drew the females to him, and that was just something the rest of us accepted. (I should add that he's no saint: a heavy drinker and a womanizer, he still drew them in like moths to a flame.)

My ultimate point? Neither the 'bad boys get all the girls,' or 'nice guys get all the girls' is really true, IMHO.

posted by jonmc 16 January | 10:56

I actually married the one nonjerk that practically thinks I walk on water.
Sure, girls marry the nice guys, but they don't go home with them for the one-night stands...

posted by RussHy 16 January | 10:58

Hear hear, jon.

Let me be clear. A "nice guy" will buy me a drink and listen to my bad break-up story, while actively plotting to get into my pants. A Nice Guy will buy me a drink, let me buy him a drink, and listen to me talk about my hobbies, and NOT actively plot to get into my pants. An asshole will not buy me a drink, not listen to me at all, which makes me think he's not plotting to get into my pants.

Fuck, why are "nice guys" picking up girls in bars at all?

posted by muddgirl 16 January | 11:13

Fuck, why are "nice guys" picking up girls in bars at all?

Because nice guys like getting laid, too. But like I said, the truth lies somewhere between the 'bad boy' fantasy and the 'nice guy' platitudes. Putting aside relationships for the moment, sexual attraction is based more on biology than anything else I think and that's what ultimately rules the day and why my buddy succeeded where most guys don't.

posted by jonmc 16 January | 11:19

I once tried the George Costanza approach, to pretty much the same effect:

JERRY: I don't get this. I go out with this girl three times, she doesn't want to shake my hand - why's she kissing you?

KRAMER (realizing): Because I snubbed her. You see? Women, they like that! Yes! I understand women. The snub is good, they love the snub!

GEORGE: No they don't. I tried that once. I snubbed for a year. Nothing. Every woman I saw, I snubbed. You never saw people so pleased.

posted by Atom Eyes 16 January | 11:23

Too eager, insecure and desperate are big turn-offs--as is condescension...women do read and comprehend the business section, and find it insulting to be told their attempts at conversation are "babble".

posted by brujita 16 January | 11:46

Gah, seanyboy! You can get anyone you want with that voice!

posted by brujita 16 January | 11:47

women do read and comprehend the business section,

Really? I've got a few dimes burning a hole in my pocket and need some investment tips.

posted by jonmc 16 January | 11:48

Some people will chase others because they want their approval, or are convinced they can fix them. Similarly, some people (even some of the same people!) will chase others just because they "look good" or "look popular." These are all bad ideas despite the fact that they are acted on.

posted by halonine 16 January | 12:02

Isn't "finding a girl to have sex with" the easy part? It's "finding a girl to have serial sex with" that should be difficult.

posted by muddgirl 16 January | 12:15

Isn't "finding a girl to have sex with" the easy part?

Such a naive young thing. For a tiny subset of guys, it's easy. For most guys it's drainingly, nerve-wrackingly difficult.

(whether it's a pursuit that even is worthy is a whole other debate of course, unfortunately, it's also an extremely strong biological drive)

posted by jonmc 16 January | 12:18

For a tiny subset of guys, it's easy. For most guys it's drainingly, nerve-wrackingly difficult.

I think we've had this conversation before. I'll say it's easy, if your standards are low enough. You'll deny it, and counter that any girl can get laid whenever she wants, by any guy she wants, or something along those lines, and the fact that some dude isn't getting laid right now is proof that I'm wrong.

But you won't get me this time, jon. I went to college. I've been to bars. That older woman in a short skirt isn't just sitting by the bathroom cause she likes the smell.

posted by muddgirl 16 January | 14:11

counter that any girl can get laid whenever she wants, by any guy she wants,

No. But I'd counter that any woman can get laid by somebody anytime she wants, while that's hardly true for men. Whether that's a desirable state is a whole other discussion.

posted by jonmc 16 January | 14:22

while that's hardly true for men

I suppose we should agree to disagree. Like I said, I've seen plenty of women at bars who would go home with anybody.

posted by muddgirl 16 January | 14:47

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